Face cover: God's only flaw?
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Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?
Maria
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Salaams SwedenMajidah,
What part of my last post didn't you understand? Let me help you again by pointing out some of it
The issue is about what does "bikhumurihinna" really mean. What is a khimar? How does a woman "spread it over her chest area"?
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically. They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
But since you don't believe in Al Quran as guidance from Allah anyway, why do you choose to follow Samia over what is in Al Quran and supported? (I think I gave myself the answer already.)
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?
Maria
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Salaams Wakas,
I read through the entire thread that you posted below, but I am curious as to what your conclusion was based on it since you gave it here. It seems most of the discussion was between Samia and Leoxyz. The other link you provided early in this thread said
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
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Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
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Taaj-el-uroos
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Lataif-ul-Lughat
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Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
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Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
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A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
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Almufradat by Raghib
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Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
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Lane?s Lexicon
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Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
So Im just curious from the two links that you included as to what your understanding of "khimaar" can be or is not.
peace all,
Sister Samia and I discussed the use of "khumur" in 2431 here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14616.msg136095#msg136095Thanks a lot.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
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peace IQO, all,
The thread link I referenced contained the point I wanted to highlight, quoted below
So "khumur" is used in 2431 and since this can be the plural of "khimir" (which can mean any covering) then in terms of Classical Arabic and grammar, it is perfectly acceptable to translate it as a general covering/veil and NOT a headcover.
If "khumur" can be the plural of "khimir" AND "khimaar" then one cannot use 2431 as head cover with certainty, it can only be a possibility.
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This issue here isn't over jilbaab, which is in a different sura from the original question about khimar. The issue is about what does "bikhumurihinna" really mean. What is a khimar? How does a woman "spread it over her chest area"?
Pakistani women who wear traditional clothes but don't wear headscarf often have a scarf draped around their chest area. They could justify this from some interpretations of Quran. It can be interpreted mean to bring your headscarf around your chest - but how does it mean suggest to cover the face (the title of the post), to get to that needs a lot of reading between the lines (or in the case of the Saudi approved english interpretaion of Quran - just put your opinion in the brackets so everyone who reads it thinks your interpretion is actually Quran)
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Peace Waka, all,
From the same link that you provided
........
2. Khumur is the plural of "khimaar" and "khimirr", both of which also mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered" according to Lane's Lexicon (Book 1, page 809, also see under the root Kh-M-R in Project Root List, LL Volume 2, page 445)Then you said
Bro. Tanveer, are you sure Lane says "khimaar" can mean "ANY COVERING of a thing" or "ANYTHING by which a thing is veiled, or covered". In Lane this description follows "khimirr".......
And then Tanveer responded
Peace bro Wakas,
It gives definitions of "khimaar" and then says as also "khimirr"; does that not make them synonymous ?
Anyway, the word used in the Qur'aan is "khumur" which is also the plural of "khimirr", and can thus mean "any coverings".
And then another important post which was
Salaam all
This is what I understood from this link
What is clear from this paragraph is that the word "khimaar" does not show!!
khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.
Of which another responder responded later by saying
Dear Samia
The question is not who is cover his head .
The question is what is "Khimaar" and for what it is used for.
You said that Khimaar is not for females.
I gave you the references from all Arabic dictionaries.Instead of being harsh refute with references as I have put .
You did not put even a single reference
The exact Lisan ul Arab text which I have put before.= And Khimar is for the woman
= And that is Naseef
= And "Al-khimar is said to be anything with which a woman covers her head .If you have some reference bring out .I will appreciate.You have been discussing this topic ,that is good.But I need proper references .
The bottom line still remains that Allah said "bikhumurihinna". If you take your definition, then it is saying "to draw over your chest areas with YOUR covers", which is very ambigious for a specific word "khimar", that clearly at that time was also used to mean "headscarf"; whether it be for men or women. In the ayat in reference, it is clearly being used for women because that is the audience being spoken to as is evidenced in many ways, not just the "hinna".
To assume that Allah meant any "cover", when the people at that time clearly understood the word to mean "a headcover" for either men or women, is to NOT take the best meaning of Al Quran. It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
Whether "khumur" is the plural of "khimaar or khimir" makes absolutely no difference since the audience addressed is women. Not only did Tanveer only mention the incomplete definition from Lane, but you all are acting as if Lane is the only authority to be considered on the definition and primary use of this word; which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Samia also quoted
Back to your post. You ask if there is another word whose plural is khumur, and without thinking, you quote another old post of mine (thank you very much, because in it is the answer for your question). Have your eyes wide open and read. beware, don't mix "khimaar" with "khimir".
"khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.
naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef."
These in no way prove that "khimaar" or "khimir" are used as a general cover instead of specifically a headscarf. They prove just the opposite by the fact that it is clear from the definition above that it can be used as a headscarf for both men and woman.
So how does it being the plural or not of both words...in any way prove that it is not a headscarf?
peace IQO, all,
The thread link I referenced contained the point I wanted to highlight, quoted below
If "khumur" can be the plural of "khimir" AND "khimaar" then one cannot use 2431 as head cover with certainty, it can only be a possibility.
Again, the evidence is overwhelming by use and all sources available that whether khumur is the plural of "khimaar" or "khimir"...it is still referring to a "headscarf". So how is any other conclusion reasonable?
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Salaams dragonflies,
I completely understand how you and others may have come to this exact conclusion, it the headscarf is used to actually cover the chest area and not just as decoration as it sometimes is. Nevertheless, I think once the understanding is accepted that "khumur" means "headscarves", then the proper way to spread it over the chest area would have to include also keeping it on the head in order for the item not to lose it's definition; which is where I think people get lost on the issue. Therefore they try to make "khumur" mean "any covering", which negates the purpose for the ayat being specific about which cover to use.
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
Pakistani women who wear traditional clothes but don't wear headscarf often have a scarf draped around their chest area. They could justify this from some interpretations of Quran. It can be interpreted mean to bring your headscarf around your chest - but how does it mean suggest to cover the face (the title of the post), to get to that needs a lot of reading between the lines (or in the case of the Saudi approved english interpretaion of Quran - just put your opinion in the brackets so everyone who reads it thinks your interpretion is actually Quran)
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Salaams dragonflies,
I completely understand how you and others may have come to this exact conclusion, it the headscarf is used to actually cover the chest area and not just as decoration as it sometimes is. Nevertheless, I think once the understanding is accepted that "khumur" means "headscarves", then the proper way to spread it over the chest area would have to include also keeping it on the head in order for the item not to lose it's definition; which is where I think people get lost on the issue. Therefore they try to make "khumur" mean "any covering", which negates the purpose for the ayat being specific about which cover to use.
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
Wa alykum salam,
I wear headscarf - however if someone feels it means just covering the chest area or general idea of modesty (I've heard the rational that at that time some women would have gone bare-breasted and it is just a command not to go around naked) I'm not going to judge them.
I'm trying to bring back on topic and ask specifically about the Face Cover/niqab. Saudi/Salafi scholars justify niqab using this verse - any rational behind that interpretation?
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Wa alykum salam,
I wear headscarf - however if someone feels it means just covering the chest area or general idea of modesty (I've heard the rational that at that time some women would have gone bare-breasted and it is just a command not to go around naked) I'm not going to judge them.
I'm trying to bring back on topic and ask specifically about the Face Cover/niqab. Saudi/Salafi scholars justify niqab using this verse - any rational behind that interpretation?
Salaams dragonflies,
In the ayat in question, Allah says "except what must appear". If that does not include the face, I have no idea on earth what it could mean. The face, not just the eyes, is what gives us identification among many other things. So to me, Allah has made "niqaab" haraam, by ordering it to not be covered, IMHO. Allah knows best and He is the judge, not me or any other human being.
As Salaamu Alaikum, jedi
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peace IQO,
It is ironic you re-quote me parts of the thread when it is you who needs to re-read them properly.
which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Where does it say that?
These in no way prove that "khimaar" or "khimir" are used as a general cover instead of specifically a headscarf.
You mean other than the fact Classical Arabic dictionaries mention "khimir" can be a general covering?
So how does it being the plural or not of both words...in any way prove that it is not a headscarf?
Who said anything about it being proven it is not a headscarf?
And lastly, let's keep our discussion based on facts and not baseless claims
It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.
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Salaams Wakas, all
peace IQO,
It is ironic you re-quote me parts of the thread when it is you who needs to re-read them properly.
Where does it say that?
Remember the link you provide which sums up what I said in posts in this forum even before I was aware of this link
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
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Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
-
Taaj-el-uroos
-
Lataif-ul-Lughat
-
Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
-
Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
-
A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
-
Almufradat by Raghib
-
Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
-
Lane?s Lexicon
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Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
You mean other than the fact Classical Arabic dictionaries mention "khimir" can be a general covering?
Other than the partial quote from Lanes, please state the "classical arabic dictionaries" that mention "khimir" as a general covering, and don't mention it's primary use and meaning as a "headscarf".
Who said anything about it being proven it is not a headscarf?
The point is that many of you are trying to say that it can mean any "cover" and therefore "headscarf" is NOT the meaning. This is very erroroneous and takes the word out of CONTEXT within the ayat mentioned from Al Quran.
And lastly, let's keep our discussion based on facts and not baseless claims
Other than quoting the actual arabic from Al Quran...EVERYTHING IS a claim and opinion, of which you have expressed many of your own throughout this forum. Your attempt to be neutral only shows that you dont understand CONTEXT within Al Quran and want to try to stick to "fact based possible definitions" only, which in itself is a baseless claim since the definitions themselves come from outside of Al Quran.
If you don't expect opinions and claims when discussing items in a forum, I would suggest you to not post. Your desire is unrealistic at best.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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IQO,
I will repeat once more for you and highlight it
which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".
Where does it say that?
Other than the partial quote from Lanes, please state the "classical arabic dictionaries" that mention "khimir" as a general covering, and don't mention it's primary use and meaning as a "headscarf".
I know Lane does. I have not checked others. Perhaps others can clarify this point.
The point is that many of you are trying to say that it can mean any "cover" and therefore "headscarf" is NOT the meaning.
In future, if you meant others and not me, then please clarify this.
Other than quoting the actual arabic from Al Quran...EVERYTHING IS a claim and opinion
So if I say Lane's Lexicon says XYZ, and it does say XYZ, is this also a claim and opinion? If so, you clearly do not understand the words you use.
If you don't expect opinions and claims when discussing items in a forum, I would suggest you to not post. Your desire is unrealistic at best.
I was referring to your statement "It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.". You do not know if I have preconceived notions or not, or what I do and do not desire... only God knows. So, let's stick to an evidence-based discussion and leave the other judgements to God, surely He is the best Judge.
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Salaams Wakas, all
All of what you say is meaningless and jiborish. Let's get to the point...
What do almost all arabic, classical arabic or any arabic dictionaries and lexicons say that "khimaar" means?
What do almost all arabic, classical arabic or any arabic dictionaries and lexicons say that "khimiir" means?
If you find this out, maybe you will stop pretending that "khumur" being the plural of one or both of them has any significance to the ayat in question.
The bottom line is that "khumur" is understood as "headscarves" whether used by men or women...and it has nothing to do with sunnism or any ism because they most commonly refer to the term that covers the woman's head as "hijab".
This is an opinion "It is really sad and disturbing that so many try to dilute Al Quran based on the weakess possible meaning of words to make a new deen that is as far away from what they experienced in sunnism as possible. They seem more intent on being completely opposite to anything in sunnism than they are about the actual TRUTH!"
When Allah tells you to take the best meaning from Al Quran...clearly the best and most obvious meaning of "khumur" is "headscarves". That is a fact sir.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO,
I will repeat once more for you and highlight it
Where does it say that?
I know Lane does. I have not checked others. Perhaps others can clarify this point.
In future, if you meant others and not me, then please clarify this.
So if I say Lane's Lexicon says XYZ, and it does say XYZ, is this also a claim and opinion? If so, you clearly do not understand the words you use.
I was referring to your statement "It is ignoring the obvious to win an argument based off of a perconceived desired outcome.". You do not know if I have preconceived notions or not, or what I do and do not desire... only God knows. So, let's stick to an evidence-based discussion and leave the other judgements to God, surely He is the best Judge.
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The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
That's not true.
Lisaanul 3arab is hesitant about it. It mentions a hadith where the word khimaar is used...for men. This means the hadith literature doe not have this word used specifically for women. It also mentions " a woman of nice scent".
Al- Sihaah's only contribution is a woman good in "khimra", without explaining what it means.
Maqaayeesil Lugha Same as above, except that it explains it as has a nice "khimaar". Either it is contrary to Lisaanulearab, or it is not, and for ML "khimaar" means scent .
Al Muheet Its only entry is that khimaar mean "naseef" (which also goes under many explanations mainly that it's something like a sarong, which its name indicates naseef like nisf means half).Besides, the word used is "khumur", not khimaar. Khumur is also the plural of another word which does not mean head scarf.
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Does the Qur'an say to use a particular piece of clothing? Does it say to cover the bosom? Does it say to cover the bosom in a particular way? Does it say in this particular expresion to cover anything beside the bosom? Does it say to create a new piece of clothing for believers in order to cover the bosom? Does it say to use a common piece of clothing which can be used in different ways and that therefore required no mending or transformation in order to cover the bosom with it and therefore avoided the expense on new clothing? Does it say that it matters that if the bossom is covered with any other piece of clothing it is no good? Is it legitimate to understand that all muminat in the whole world must wear khumur (whatever this word designates) and not anything else in order to cover their bossom. If a particular piece of clothing is really determinant in this aya, what shape had the khumur in question? ?Were they like a hat, like a casquete, like the old church veils of catholic women, like a turban? Were they may be like mexican rebozos, or like classic shawls that can be used to wrap onself around at will against cold or for dressing up, for protection against the elements, etc.? How big were they? were they in different sizes or one size? Is there any mention of this piece of clothing contemporaneous of the revelation of the Qur'an apart from the Qur'an?
Salaam
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Dear IQO I think you missed this post by
Waqas
Also, from my experience of the forum, there seems to be a prevalent myth that the head cover is not in AQ. That is not entirely accurate. It would be more correct to say that there is no 100% clear commandment that women must wear the head cover, but a reasonable case can be made for it using AQ
He has exactly mentioned what is the prevailing thought at this forum of majority.
I agree with his post except the stating that "there is no 100% clear commandment" then it must not be QURAN.IQO
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!Even if it is then what? are you sure Allah means this use of Khimar?
We have to go into the history and the culture, and try to understand why was this ordered and then by Ijtihaad decide weather it is necessary now?
