Face cover: God's only flaw?

YahTayVoleem

Peace.

How many other times is this word or variation of this word used?
If we go with IQO and say it means headscarf, then where do we get the justification that it means also cover the chest with the headscarf or does the verse imply that the headscarf is now to be used over the chest? Or does it say take your headscarf and also cover the chest with it? or does it simply say now take your headcover and cover the chest?
Knowing which Arabic words are used would be highly beneficial, since if it says take the headcover and cover your chest this implies that way they used the cover was wrong and they should now place it over there chests and not on the head.
But if it says take your headscarf and ALSO cover the chest then this would imply ??? that they covered both. even if they said also cover the chest does that somehow imply we are supposed to cover our head? Where is the clear command to cover the head? how can we imply? from my understanding when God gives orders it is direct. like do not eat the flesh or blood of pig. It is clearly stated it isn't something that is implied, correct? Why would commandments be ambiguous? and who was this verse talking about..tell your women...what women? wives? believers? all women? who?

YTV

ImamQuranonly

Salaams YTV,

Please read this portion carefully

Quote from ImamQuranonly on December 24, 2007, 024747 PM
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!

So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.

For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.

Peace.

How many other times is this word or variation of this word used?
If we go with IQO and say it means headscarf, then where do we get the justification that it means also cover the chest with the headscarf or does the verse imply that the headscarf is now to be used over the chest? Or does it say take your headscarf and also cover the chest with it? or does it simply say now take your headcover and cover the chest?
Knowing which Arabic words are used would be highly beneficial, since if it says take the headcover and cover your chest this implies that way they used the cover was wrong and they should now place it over there chests and not on the head.
But if it says take your headscarf and ALSO cover the chest then this would imply ??? that they covered both. even if they said also cover the chest does that somehow imply we are supposed to cover our head? Where is the clear command to cover the head? how can we imply? from my understanding when God gives orders it is direct. like do not eat the flesh or blood of pig. It is clearly stated it isn't something that is implied, correct? Why would commandments be ambiguous? and who was this verse talking about..tell your women...what women? wives? believers? all women? who?

YTV

Samia

I didn't miss your point, you are diverting attention from the important facts and issues. The dictionaries you mentioned, I didn't see that they gave a different definition of khimaar that didn't or couldn't include it as a headscarf.

And this is what I am trying to make you hear THEY DID NOT GIVE ANY OTHER DEFINITION MORE THAN WHAT I STATED, BE IT HEADSCARF OR OTHERWISE.

So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431? hmm

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

Emphasis? You call this "so much emphasis"?

Besides, the word used is "khumur", not khimaar. Khumur is also the plural of another word which does not mean head scarf.

ImamQuranonly

And this is what I am trying to make you hear THEY DID NOT GIVE ANY OTHER DEFINITION MORE THAN WHAT I STATED, BE IT HEADSCARF OR OTHERWISE.

Emphasis? You call this "so much emphasis"?

Quote
So how come you put so much other emphasis on this word that "khumur" can be the plural of, but you won't give it and it's definition, not to mention how it would fit into the context of 2431?

YahTayVoleem

Peace.

I do not feel that answer effectively answered my question. Can you please provide some linguistic terminology that supports your claim that
"headscarf is obligatory"?

YTV

AaRoN

but the clear consensus is that is primarily is understand as a headscarf.

samia already explained to you that there is no consensus, so to claim that the clear consensus is headscarf is completely unfounded

how many times must it be repeated?

there are certain people who start at the beginning of an issue and say "i wonder what this means... i shall investigate"

and then there are others who say "i wish to promote this viewpoint and now i shall manipulate the language in order to prove myself and my preconceived beliefs correct and bully others into accepting them"

clearly you are showing yourself to be in the second category

ImamQuranonly

Then let me explain it to you again, since you can't understand anything unless "SAMIA" tells it to you. Maybe you think that whatever "SAMIA" says is LAW. So I will repeat what I have said again for you

First, let's look at what "consensus" is

Main Entry con?sen?sus
Pronunciation \kn-sen(t)-ss
Function noun
Usage often attributive
Etymology Latin, from consentire
Date 1843
1 a general agreement unanimity <the consensus of their opinion, based on reports?from the border ? John Hersey> b the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned <the consensus was to go ahead>

Clearly if you had read my posts on the issue thoroughly, you SHOULD have been able to ascertain that I was using consensus in this manner bolded above. For example, I said

The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!

While I said "ALL", if you notice how I said I used the term, this means that it includes "most of those concerned".

I followed up later by posting part of what was in the link that Wakas gave

The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head

Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
Taaj-el-uroos
Lataif-ul-Lughat
Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
Almufradat by Raghib
Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
Lane?s Lexicon
Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)

Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.

According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.

Samia, your leader I suppose, followed up by saying that she found 2 or 3 dictionaries that didn't define "khimaar" as a headscarf of any kind, be it male or female. Since I don't have those available to me, and she didn't provide pastes of their entire context, I guess for argument sake, we can take her word for it; although I am not inclined to do so 100% knowing how she presents evidence in this forum.

Nevertheless, 3 that doen't mention it as a headscarf (if she is correct), but don't mention it as "NOT A HEADSCARF", definitely don't change the fact that the majority do consider "khimaar" a headscarf! If you want to say that the majority don't consider it a headscarf primarily, then you need to bring at least a minimum of 11 dictionaries that don't include this definition in it.

If you want to also pick on the word "consensus", then feel free to make your feeble arguments; the bottom line is that the MAJORITY of all arabic dictionaries and lexicons agree that "khimaar" is a headscarf.

And as I asked your leader Samia, if the plural of khimaar, "khumur" as used in 2431 is not what you are saying that it means, THEN WHAT OTHER MEANING ARE YOU SAYING THAT IS MEANS? SCENTS? MEN'S HEADSCARVES? WHAT?

All of this dancing around whether "khumur" is the plural of "khimaar" or other words is redundant and ridiculous unless you can show how those other words can fit the context and make sense. The MAJORITY don't consider "khumur" as just "covers" of any kind. Tanveer gave one incident of that. Yet the primary and MAJORITY understanding of this word is "headscarf", speaking of "khimaar", of which "khumur" is the plural.

So your statement that I started off with a preconceived notion is also invalid, cause personally I happen to like women's hair showing, especially long flowing beautiful hair. But this is not about what I like, it is about what Allah has said in Al Quran. I wasn't born or raised muslim in a muslim household, so free flowing hair is all that I knew for most of my life. I don't have issues with hair like some of you seem to have in the opposite, that is in having to show women's hair even if Allah says not to, for reasons that I don't have to understand.

I don't use "sunnah and hadeeth" to derive my understandings from. If I did, I would be debating hijab and not khimaar. I don't have hangups if a bang or pieces of a woman's hair is hanging outside of their "khimaar", Al Quran doesn't get specific about that. I don't have hangups about any woman, quote unquote "muslim or non-muslim" that doesn't wear "khimaar". It really doesn't bother me at all!

But when you sit on a site like this and tell those who are trying to study and learn Al Quran that there is nothing in Al Quran that indicates that a believing women should cover her head, and that "khimaar" means cover your chest, without explaining it properly...well, that's where I throw in my two cents; whether you like it or not. And I really don't care if you like me or my posting style either.

Now, it's obvious that you don't want your wife to wear a headscarf, so don't worry, be happy. And all those women on this site and in the world that don't want to wear a headscarf, DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY! I really don't care! yay

But I am on this forum to discuss what Al Quran means. For that purpose...I stand by what the evidence has shown me and how I have explained the issue of 2431. If you don't like it, well you know what to do! ignore

As Salaamu alaikum, jedi

samia already explained to you that there is no consensus, so to claim that the clear consensus is headscarf is completely unfounded

how many times must it be repeated?

there are certain people who start at the beginning of an issue and say "i wonder what this means... i shall investigate"

and then there are others who say "i wish to promote this viewpoint and now i shall manipulate the language in order to prove myself and my preconceived beliefs correct and bully others into accepting them"

clearly you are showing yourself to be in the second category

Samia

Salaam IQO

From the ten dictionaries you cited, only three could be considered classical Arabic dictionaries Lisaanul 3arab, Al Muheet and Tajul 3aroos (Lane's is a translation of Tajul 3aroos, that's why I did not count it though it is classical). Hans Wehr is what it calls itself Dictionary of Modern written Arabic. Others copy from, mostly, Tajul 3aroos (if it does say khimaar is headscarf. I am taking your word), since other dictionaries do not go into details as what khimaar is definitely.

Here are two classical dictionaries, out of the three, which you cited as proving that khimaar is head scaf. It seems that those who mentioned a plural for it had (khumur) as a third choice; the first being "akhmira"

Al Muheet

.
Translation
Khimar is naseef; like the khimirr; and anything that covers something is its khimaar. Plural akhmira; khumr and khumur

Lisaanul 3arab .
.

Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with.Plural akhmira, khumr and khumur. takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries).

As for the third, Tajul 3aroos, I did not check it. I'll leave it for those who are following this thread to check Lane's under Kha Meem Raa

Wakas

which clearly from the other link you gave which I posted again; ALMOST ALL, IF NOT ALL ARABIC DICTIONARIES AND LEXICONS TAKE "KHUMUR" TO MEAN "HEADSCARVES".

IQO then backtracks and changes what he said to

Khimaar means headscarf. Khumur is the plural of khimaar, which by the definition of PLURAL means that it means "headscarves". This is not rocket science.

It is YOU who says "khumur" means "headscarves" NOT "almost all, if not all Arabic dictionaries".

If you want to claim that Khumur is also the plural of another word, whatever the case...

Is it still a "claim" if it is clearly stated in a Classical Arabic dictionary? Perhaps you should have took my advice and looked up the meanings of the words you use.

2 points proven. Not bad for a non-rocket scientist who speaks meaningless jiborish ;D

ImamQuranonly

Salaams Samia,

You never cease to amaze me.

"Khimar is naseef; like the khimirr; and anything that covers something is its khimaar. Plural akhmira; khumr and khumur"

First, I guess you didn't want to answer my last question about "khimirr" since you realised that it also is considered a headscarf...understandable.

Second, "anything that covers something is it's khimaar", still doesn't negate that "khimar is naseef". It primary meaning is still "headscarf", no matter how general you would like to make it.

Every word in Al Quran has more than one meaning. Many try to make words mean one of their other meanings, even if it doesn't fit into the context. I guess you feel like 2431 is saying "draw over your chest area with YOUR anything that covers"....and surely for you in arabic that makes better sense since you don't like to wear a headscarf.

Third "takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries)."

What is "wore the khimaar"? Wore the cover? What cover? How about "headscarf"? Yes, I thought so. But I guess to you it means "covered with the cover". wow what's before it has no significance to you.

Next, you add in your meaning in parenthesis to the definition to mislead those reading it as if it was there. That's very cunning if you ask me, even if you did put it in parenthesis. "(so just wearing a khimaar does not man she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries)" is your own assumption and a deception when you already pointed out that the other dictionary defined "khimaar as naseef".

Why do you go to such extremes? First your point was that "khumur" was the plural of another word and therefore it may not even be the plural of "khimaar" when used in 2431. Then when that failed, because you wouldn't point out what word you meant exactly, what is means, and how the context would make sense without that word also meaning headscarf; now you want to say that the dictionaries say that "khimaar" is not a "headscarf" UNLESS "ra'sahaa" is used with it in the sentence! nope

Even the transliteration that you gave is wrong, unless you miscopied it. Where is the blkhimaar in that definition in arabic? It makes a difference if it is there or not, clearly. Either way, lets see what it means.

It if it supposed to be there, then it doesn't say "covered her head with it", you perfectly well know that that translation should be "covered her head with KHIMAAR", not IT. Why would you try to mislead people to make your point when you know better?

If it is not to be there as it doesn't show in this arabic that you copied, then it is referring back to "Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with"; and you know that. So why the deception?

You already defined naseef yourself for those that don't know arabic

Men headcover.

Lisaanul3arab says under "khimaar"

For men cover of the head; for women it is called "naSeef".

Looking up "naSeef"
It is said that it is the head cover....

then you added

khumur; khumr and akhmira are all plurals of the word khimir, which is another word for naSeef. NaSeef is pertaining to women, whereas khimir pertains to both men and women.

naSeef is a khimir, but khimir is not a naSeef.

of which the last part was refuted with this

Dear Samia
If that is your translation ,the I think you are badly mistaken (sorry to say)
In fact "Khimaar" is any thing which covers any other thing.It is used also for
Woman - then called "Khimaar" or "Naseef "(both names)
Man - In them turban is called "Khimaar."
If you go to Lanes' Lexicon that very clear definitions.

( 1 / 2785)

(translation=Any thing which covers any other thing is "Khimaar" .From it woman's khimaar is with which she covers her head .Its plural is "akhmirah or kummur&quot
Mujaamul Wasit has more elaborative definition
( ) ( ) ( )
Translation
Alkhimaar ,anything which covers.From it is woman's khimar and that is the cloth with which she covers her head and from it is turban because the man covers his head with it and turns it below his jaws.In Hadith ,Verily he used to rub his khiff(socks) and khimar i.e Turban.
Better you visit studyquran website and read about Khimar from Lane's it will clear every thing.
So ,I do not think your concept that
"Naseef is for women and Khimaar is for men" is correct.No doubt Naseef is synonymous with Khimaar.
For Naseef ,Mujaamul Wasit writes
( ) ( ) ( )
Alnaseef has three meanings

Half of anything
Anything which covers the head which is Khimaar or Turban
That who serves]

( 1 / 6140)

Mehjar = cloth which covers the head

( 1 / 6140)

It is said ,that Alnaseef = Turban and everything which covers the head is called "Naseef"

So this is a waste of my time. You and those who choose to believe this deception are welcome to continue to enjoy your beliefs.

As Salaamu Alaikum, handshake

Salaam IQO

From the ten dictionaries you cited, only three could be considered classical Arabic dictionaries Lisaanul 3arab, Al Muheet and Tajul 3aroos (Lane's is a translation of Tajul 3aroos, that's why I did not count it though it is classical). Hans Wehr is what it calls itself Dictionary of Modern written Arabic. Others copy from, mostly, Tajul 3aroos (if it does say khimaar is headscarf. I am taking your word), since other dictionaries do not go into details as what khimaar is definitely.

Here are two classical dictionaries, out of the three, which you cited as proving that khimaar is head scaf. It seems that those who mentioned a plural for it had (khumur) as a third choice; the first being "akhmira"

Al Muheet

.

Translation
Khimar is naseef; like the khimirr; and anything that covers something is its khimaar. Plural akhmira; khumr and khumur

Lisaanul 3arab .
.

Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with.Plural akhmira, khumr and khumur. takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries).

As for the third, Tajul 3aroos, I did not check it. I'll leave it for those who are following this thread to check Lane's under Kha Meem Raa

ImamQuranonly

Salaams Wakas,

You are boring me with your ridiculous assertions. You are playing with words in a way that suggests you don't know what you are talking about. Trying to make irrevelant points to give yourself relevance. Your logic is flawed and devoid of any contextual understanding from Al Quran. I can't help you with that, make "salaat" to Allah and ask for His help on guiding you with that. And stop taking my statements out of context trying to make a non-proven irrelevant point for yourself...it's really a waste of time and adds nothing to the understanding of what is being discussed. Read my last post to Samia and enjoy what you promote.

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

IQO then backtracks and changes what he said to

It is YOU who says "khumur" means "headscarves" NOT "almost all, if not all Arabic dictionaries".

Is it still a "claim" if it is clearly stated in a Classical Arabic dictionary? Perhaps you should have took my advice and looked up the meanings of the words you use.

2 points proven. Not bad for a non-rocket scientist who speaks meaningless jiborish ;D

YahTayVoleem

Salaam IQO

From the ten dictionaries you cited, only three could be considered classical Arabic dictionaries Lisaanul 3arab, Al Muheet and Tajul 3aroos (Lane's is a translation of Tajul 3aroos, that's why I did not count it though it is classical). Hans Wehr is what it calls itself Dictionary of Modern written Arabic. Others copy from, mostly, Tajul 3aroos (if it does say khimaar is headscarf. I am taking your word), since other dictionaries do not go into details as what khimaar is definitely.

Here are two classical dictionaries, out of the three, which you cited as proving that khimaar is head scaf. It seems that those who mentioned a plural for it had (khumur) as a third choice; the first being "akhmira"

Al Muheet

.
Translation
Khimar is naseef; like the khimirr; and anything that covers something is its khimaar. Plural akhmira; khumr and khumur

Lisaanul 3arab .
.

Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with.Plural akhmira, khumr and khumur. takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries).

As for the third, Tajul 3aroos, I did not check it. I'll leave it for those who are following this thread to check Lane's under Kha Meem Raa

Peace Sister Samia,

Again I appreciate you putting this information up. This information was useful to me. I do not know why someone would call you a leader, but I think you are calm level headed person who uses facts and doesn't display alot of emotion, but uses logic and reason with supporting evidence , and this is why I enjoy to hear your side as well, not because I think you are our leader(how ridiculous..if anyone knows what we beelive in here the idea of having a leader is absurd), for God's sake you know how some men feel about women leaders obvious from yesterday's assassination.

I also wanted to post a snipet from an article that I read, and get some feedback on this, since it is relevant to this issue

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments ... that they should draw their KHIMAR over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands.." Y. Ali's translation, with the word khimar put back in place.

"Khimar" is an Arabic word that means, cover, any cover, a curtain is a Khimar, a dress is a Khimar, a table cloth that covers the top of a table is a Khimar, a blanket can be used as a Khimar..etc. The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers, the Khimar covers (a window, a body, a table . etc.) while KHAMRA covers the state of mind. Most of the translators, obviously influenced by Hadith (fabrications) translate the word as VEIL and thus mislead most people to believe that this verse is advocating the covering of the head.

In 2431 God is asking the women to use their cover (khimar)( being a dress, a coat, a shawl, a shirt, a blouse, a tie, a scarf . . . etc.) to cover their bosoms, not their heads or their hairs. If God so willed to order the women to cover their heads or their hair, nothing would have prevented Him from doing so. GOD does not run out of words. GOD does not forget.

God did not order the women to cover their heads or their hair. He was not waiting for a Scholar to put the words for Him.

The Arabic word for CHEST, GAYB is in the verse (2431), but the Arabic words for HEAD, (RAAS) or HAIR, (SHAAR) are NOT in the verse. The commandment in the verse is clear - COVER YOUR CHEST OR BOSOMS, but also the fabrication of the scholars and most of the translators is clear by claiming- cover your head or hair.

The last part of the verse (2431) translates as, "They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies." The details of the body can be revealed or not revealed by the dress you wear, not by your head cover.

Notice also the expression in 2431, "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary." This expression may sound vague to many because they have not understood the mercy of God.

The word KHAMRA used for intoxicant in Arabic has the same root with Khimar, because both covers. How does this root make a difference? Also, I believe somewhere there is another article that talks about the things that should be covered are the private parts and he definition of private parts in arabic showed that it was things that had openings and closings then went on to show how it said except those that protrude should not be covered which alter went on to show that the things that protrude are on the head, does anyone recall ever reading that article I cant seem to recall where I read it. But anyways it was highly insightful and full of good information. Showing that the things that had openings like the buttocks, vaginal area, under the arms etc should be covered but not those that protrude such as the nose eyes ears head etc.....

Can someone recall this article? or has the information I am referring to?

Appreciate it!

YTV

AaRoN

i know what consensus means, it appears you still have difficulty with the concept

those which do not put forth any meaning cannot be included as part of a consensus

Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.

why does it say "wearing khimaar on the head" if the accepted meaning of khimaar is a head cover? wouldn't they have just said "wearing khimaar"?

nobody is my leader, least of all the likes of you, no matter how many forum nicks you put it in )

YahTayVoleem

Peace.

What is all qamoos?

IS that a person or a book?

YTV

Samia

Salaam IQO

I hope that when you start your message to me with "peace" you mean it, and don't haste to accuse me of being "deceitful" or "cunning" before you read my reply to you.

First, I guess you didn't want to answer my last question about "khimirr" since you realised that it also is considered a headscarf...understandable.

My post was not intended to answer your question. It was, since the first post, to refute your claim about a consensus on the meaning of khimaar.
Moreover, I haven't seen this question of yours.

"anything that covers something is it's khimaar", still doesn't negate that "khimar is naseef". It primary meaning is still "headscarf",

Of course I am not negating that it means naseef. On the contrary, I emphasized this here and on another thread. It seems that you don't know what a naseef is. How you deduce from this that "its primary meaning is headscarf" is beyond logic.

I guess you feel like 2431 is saying "draw over your chest area with YOUR anything that covers"....and surely for you in arabic that makes better sense since you don't like to wear a headscarf.

That's really pathetic!! "Any thing that covers something is its khimaar" would not need a genius to deduce that, khimaar of a table table cloth; khimaar of a bed bedsheet; khimaar of person their clothes...How about "Draw your clothes to cover your chests"?

What is "wore the khimaar"? Wore the cover? What cover? How about "headscarf"? Yes, I thought so. But I guess to you it means "covered with the cover". what's before it has no significance to you.

See above and activate your imagination.
Maybe you can understand "ikhtamarat alkhimaar"? What's the meaning of ikhtamara? "Wear the dress/clothes; get dressed" rings a bell?

Next, you add in your meaning in parenthesis to the definition to mislead those reading it as if it was there. That's very cunning if you ask me, even if you did put it in parenthesis.

If I put it in paranthesis, and even you were able to understand that it is not part of the dictionary and were not mislead, no one else would be mislead. They are smarter than that. They know what it means to put something between parenthesis. If you don't, I am not surprised.

Even the transliteration that you gave is wrong, unless you miscopied it. Where is the blkhimaar in that definition in arabic? It makes a difference if it is there or not, clearly. Either way, lets see what it means.

It if it supposed to be there, then it doesn't say "covered her head with it", you perfectly well know that that translation should be "covered her head with KHIMAAR", not IT. Why would you try to mislead people to make your point when you know better?

Lisaanul 3arab .
.

Khimar for the woman is the naseef, and it is said khimaar is what the woman covers her head with.Plural akhmira, khumr and khumur. takhammarat and ikhtamarat bilkhimaar wore the khimaar; khammarat ra'sahaa blkhimaar covered her head with it.(so just wering a khimaar does not mean she covered her head, unless explicitly mentioned, as underlined. Therefor, khimaar is just a cover, as is already explained in these dictionaries).

I really don't understand why this much-a-do-about nothing. The underlined sentence is "takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat", and this is my translation for it. Do you expect the dictionary to write (takhammarat bilkhimaar wa-khtamarat alkhimaar)? The point is the variable verb patterns. As for your claim that it should be (covered her head with the khimaar and not with it), still I do not see what the point is, yet, you have it in bold
khammarat bihi ra'saha (word for word) she covered with it her head.

So, what's there in Leoxyz post that makes you feeling victorious? What's in his post that I did not mention or that I concealed?

So this is a waste of my time

I agree with this. A poor posting.

Edip_Yuksel

Ace of Hearts

A well-written article. Thanks. Who are you? If you wish you may introduced yourself via email.

Peace,
Edip

Dotty

Once our points are made and the debate seems to be going in circles, we should quit the debate.

peace,
dotty

Samia

Salaam all
My general impression about women dress as cited in dictionaries is that it seems that women covered nothing but their heads. Even when words whose meanings very clearly denote a specific part of the body (naseef half = waist) or 3ajeera (behind), and are explained as such, the authors of some dictionaries felt they had to mention that it is to be a cover for the head.
For example Naseef is explained in all dictionaries as meaning (nisf half) and they would go further to say that it is something like "a sarong", which is quite logical, but then some of them feel obliged to add that it is said to be a head cover. In the Sudan, the verb "nasafat" means she moved her body from the waist down while dancing (and it is only this part of the body that is moved).

Even the word "jilbaab" which is still in use as similar to a cloak, some would say (for a woman it is a headscarf). Yet, and I repeat, YET no dictionary had the courage to quote verse 2431 as a proof of their claim regarding khumur They know they are twisting the meaning, and hence jumping from word to another until we have ALL words for clothes having a potential meaning of headscarf.

So what exactly did women wear before Islam?
I was really surprised to find that dictionaries did know what women used to wear. I had to use my imagination from the fact that Sudanese culture (being an inland culture) holds the key for this question, like many other keys regarding some Arabic vocabulary, thought to be specific to the Sudan (from my MA thesis on the style of speech of Sudanese women). Just digging in this Sudanese culture/vocab and from what I know that...

Women in the Sudan, up to the turn of the century (before the foreign influence) used to wear a skirt-like gear made of leather strings or slit leather from the hips down to he knees. And I am not talking about the African Sudanese, but about Arab Muslim women (including women within my mother/grandmother generation, who were at least half Arabs). On the night of their wedding ceremony, brides would get rid of this (rahT) and wear an overall. Until now we have the tradition of (cutting the rahT) to mean ("Sudanese" wedding ceremony),
..and searching for this seemingly exclusive Sudanese word, rahT, I found what Classical Arabic dictionaries, under the entry (rahaT) say

Lisaanul 3arab

(..and the "rahT" is leather measuring between the navel and the knee, wore by the menstruating woman ( confused), and in pre islamic era, "men" used to circumbulate naked and women in rahTs (so the menustrating woemn is just an inaccurate addition - me)

Al Sihaah fil lugha

RihaaT (pl), singular rahT (a peace of )leather cut into strings

Al qamoosul Muheet

a (piece of) leather slit on the sides from down so one can walk while (wearing it) worn by kids and menustrating women. or a (piece of leather) slit in strings.

I personaly do not understand why menustrating women wear this slit leather. I think it is just a meaningless addition and it was what women used to wear. Women walking bare breasted was not an extra-ordinary costum. It was almost a universal habit.

Comments are welcome, please

peace4life

The Quran is logical.

is there anything sexual about a woman's hair anyway? that it MUST be covered? hmm

Jack

Dictionaries are no subsitute for al-quran. In this case, Khamr's primary meaning in Al-Quran is that of an intoxicant i.e. something hidden. "Head-cover" makes 2431 sound absolutely ridiculous.

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them place their HEADcovers over their chests...