Followers of Quran alone dividing themselves into 2 sects
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You are right there is no consensus at any topic /meaning among them at all. not even in rejection of rejection of Hadeeths. G.A Pervaiz's book "Mehraaj-i-Insaaniyyat "contains a lot of Hadeeths.
So we see a state of confusion and intellectual anarchy.Not surprising since some people on here can't even decide what name they want to log onto today ;D
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Peace.
I do not know if all who frequent free-minds.org are in the first category, but I can definitely see your point...I can see the different types of views.
There are those who are all literal and then those who are allegorical.
I am beginning to see what you are saying even clearer than before.
I will no longer be coming here...
Peace to all the believers.
last time as YTV
You are right there is no consensus at any topic /meaning among them at all. not even in rejection of rejection of Hadeeths. G.A Pervaiz's book "Mehraaj-i-Insaaniyyat "contains a lot of Hadeeths.
So we see a state of confusion and intellectual anarchy.Well the site is named FREE MINDS... We VALUE our individual RIGHTS to thinking what we want to think
and more importantly giving others the right to think what they want to think...We welcome diversity of opinion and viewpoints, it is there where the NEW growth occurs....
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Peace IQO, everyone,
- Believes there is no worship of Allah..He doesn?t need it.
- Believes that we must worship Allah, even though He doesn?t need it, because it benefits us and we were ordered to do it as a sign of our faith.
I guess, it depends on what people mean by ?worship?. Christians think that kneeling before the cross is ?worship?. Sectarians think that spinning seven times around a cube is ?worship?. If one thinks that worship is to respect, hear, obey and serve the god then this is fine. If one thinks that worship means doing some mindless rituals such as spinning around a cube, then rational people know that there is no benefit for such mindless rituals.
- Therefore there is no such thing as ritual prayer, just meditation like Yoga
- There is worship of Allah in the form of a ?ritual prayer? called As Salaat.
It is a fact that ?as salaat? doesn?t mean ?ritual prayer? or ?meditation?. This is indisputable and such meanings produce nonsense in several of the passages where the term occurs. For example, using ?ritual prayer? or ?meditation? in 3343 creates problems as we can see here (using Yusufali?s translation)
033.043
YUSUFALI He it is Who performs the ?ritual prayer? on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers.YUSUFALI He it is Who performs the ?meditation? on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers.
- You can drink alcohol if you like, just be moderate cause you are warned about it.
- Alcohol is forbidden to drink because it intoxicates the mind, as are any other intoxicants that would make a person not normal during regular life.
If something is forbidden then this makes it 100% off limits. Therefore, if IQO sincerely believes in the above and he ever has an operation, he shouldn?t take anesthesia because it intoxicates the mind and according to him is forbidden. Also, alcohol is a chemical compound that is a byproduct of the natural fermentation process and thus is ubiquitous in nature. Therefore, if IQO really believes in the above, he shouldn?t eat any fruit or drink any fruit juice since they definitely contain a small amount of alcohol and according to him it is forbidden.
The fact is that the word ?haram?/forbidden/restricted is never mentioned with intoxicants. The word mentioned is ?avoid?. So we should avoid such things as much as possible.
- Women can dress any way the society deems appropriate, just at least wear a bra.
- Women and men, but particularly women are given a dress code in Al Quran from Allah that specifies how they are different then men in their necessity.
One should dress modestly and the best dress is that of ?taqwa?/forethought. There is nothing in the great reading that instructs women to wear a uniform in the form of a black ?tent? that covers them from head to toe.
- There are no such things as Angels, they are just forces of nature or aspects of human beings.
- Angels are beings created from light that are part of the unseen that a believer is required to believe in to qualify as a believer.
In English, the word ?angels? is used to describe mythical creatures dressed in white robes and who have halos on top of their heads. So it is a fact that angels don?t exist.
Also, although this is a common belief amongst Sunnis due to some Hadiths, the statement ?angels are beings created from light? is wild conjecture that has no basis in the great reading. Therefore, IQO, you should either retract such baseless statement or if you insist on such Hadith-based stuff, you should at least change your screen name accordingly.
- There are no such things as Jinn, they are just mankind?s alter ego.
- Jinn are beings created from a smokeless fire that are part of the unseen that a believer is required to believe in to qualify as a believer.
Again, there is no basis in the great reading for the statement ?a believer is required to believe in ?jinn? to qualify as a believer?. In fact, quite the opposite, we are told the following in 3441 (again using Yusufali's translation)
034.041
YUSUFALI They will say, "Glory to Thee! our (tie) is with Thee - as Protector - not with them. Nay, but they worshipped the Jinns most of them believed in them."It is an indisputable fact that according to 3441, it is the unjust who believe in the ?jinn?. So we shouldn?t believe in ?jinn?.
- Paradise and Hellfire are states of being in this life, not a new creation in the afterlife
- Paradise and Hellfire are real creations of Allah that we experience in the after life, although similarities of both can be found in this life.
We are told in the great reading that paradise and hell descriptions are allegorical. They are certainly the two possible outcomes of the afterlife. There is no indication in the great reading that anything is similar to them in this life.
There is no gathering day such as Friday, for believers to gather and hear the message since days of the week don?t exist in Al Quran.
There are gathering days for believers to gather and learn together from the book.What are those gathering days? The word ?Friday? (or Friga-day after the Norse goddess Friga) is never mentioned in the great reading.
- Men and women are equal in everything including their roles in life given by Allah.
- Men and Women are equal in their service to Allah in the aspects of their soul, but Allah has given them different defined roles in society to create a balance and harmonious life style for the human being on earth.
- ?...inna akramakum 3ind allah atqakum...?
...surely that of you who is most honored at the god is who is your most forethoughtful...
As for roles, men and women certainly have different roles as dictated by their natural biology. For example, men don?t get pregnant but women do. But this is obvious and people who do not harbor any chauvinistic inclinations shouldn?t make a big deal out of it.
- To determine the best meaning of a word, phrase or subject matter of Al Quran, the meaning of the root of the word is the single most important factor and takes all precedent over context and understanding.
- The best meaning of words should be used in the context of a given verse to determine what its true meaning is.
I agree that one should use the context to determine the best meaning. However, the key is to actually put this in practice instead of claiming it but then using preconceptions from inherited dogma as the context. For example, given the context in the great reading, ?malaika? cannot be construed as ?angels made of light?. This is a purely imaginary meaning based on preconceptions from inherited dogma.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaams ayman,
Was your point to prove that you fall into neither category? If so, that doesn't make a case against the point that many people still do.
What is your point with all of this? All of these subjects have been discussed in different threads over and over again. It seems that you and those like you can't seem to understand that my intent with this point WAS NOT TO TRY TO DEBATE EACH AND EVERY DIFFERENT POINT IN THIS THREAD...THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE.
The point was to point out how those with certain views seems to fall in line with other views. If you want to take a poll and prove otherwise, please feel free to do so.
Otherwise, it is just my opinion of what I see, and all of you are making a mockery of yourself trying to make proofs or points for issues that have been discussed numerous times already on this forum, as if you are opposing or proving me wrong. You don't know if I hold all the views of one catergory or the other; or some views from both categories. If I want to discuss one of the points individually, I will do it in a thread dedicated to that subject or start one of my own.
Peace, peace
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Salaams ayman,
Was your point to prove that you fall into neither category? If so, that doesn't make a case against the point that many people still do.
What is your point with all of this? All of these subjects have been discussed in different threads over and over again. It seems that you and those like you can't seem to understand that my intent with this point WAS NOT TO TRY TO DEBATE EACH AND EVERY DIFFERENT POINT IN THIS THREAD...THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE.
The point was to point out how those with certain views seems to fall in line with other views. If you want to take a poll and prove otherwise, please feel free to do so.
Otherwise, it is just my opinion of what I see, and all of you are making a mockery of yourself trying to make proofs or points for issues that have been discussed numerous times already on this forum, as if you are opposing or proving me wrong. You don't know if I hold all the views of one catergory or the other; or some views from both categories. If I want to discuss one of the points individually, I will do it in a thread dedicated to that subject or start one of my own.
Peace, peace
You assigned a set creed to two equally meaningless labels (meaningless, in that they give absolutely no information beyond what they state clearly) in order to give them meaning. So don't cry when people react to that.
In any case, "free-minder" has nothing to do with your silly list of generalisations and nor does "quran only" have to conform to an equally silly list of preconceptions.
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You assigned a set creed to two equally meaningless labels (meaningless, in that they give absolutely no information beyond what they state clearly) in order to give them meaning. So don't cry when people react to that.
In any case, "free-minder" has nothing to do with your silly list of generalisations and nor does "quran only" have to conform to an equally silly list of preconceptions.
If it is/was so meaningless, why are your panties all in a wad? yeah
Im not crying...Im point out how silly you all look trying to prove points to me when you don't understand the point that I made.
If it is so silly, why are you giving it so much attention? hmm Again, sounds like I struck a nerve no matter how much you deny it!
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Peace IQO, everyone,
We are told in the great reading that paradise and hell descriptions are allegorical. They are certainly the two possible outcomes of the afterlife. There is no indication in the great reading that anything is similar to them in this life.
Wow !! great information
Would you please provide the evidence/proof from the great book
You also saidThe fact is that the word ?haram?/forbidden/restricted is never mentioned with intoxicants. The word mentioned is ?avoid?. So we should avoid such things as much as possible.
From where did you deduce the word "avoid" means "avoid as much as possible".
When Allah commands "avoid" ,it means avoid .There is no as much as possible type thing. -
Peace IQO,
Was your point to prove that you fall into neither category? If so, that doesn't make a case against the point that many people still do.
My point was not about me at all. In fact, I don't think that anyone falls into such categories. So such categories are pointless.
What is your point with all of this? All of these subjects have been discussed in different threads over and over again. It seems that you and those like you can't seem to understand that my intent with this point WAS NOT TO TRY TO DEBATE EACH AND EVERY DIFFERENT POINT IN THIS THREAD...THAT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE.
It is not impossible. In fact, most of the points are easily addressed. For example, simply referring to the passage in the great reading which states that "maliaka" are "angels made of light" would suffice. How hard is it to write a chapter and verse number? Words such as "impossible" shouldn't be used lightly. However, I can safely say that it is IMPOSSIBLE that you will bring proof from the great reading that "angels are beings made of light".
The point was to point out how those with certain views seems to fall in line with other views. If you want to take a poll and prove otherwise, please feel free to do so.
This is not about polls or what views are popular. This is about the truth. I saw many problems and hasty generalizations in the views that you presented from your point of view.
Otherwise, it is just my opinion of what I see, and all of you are making a mockery of yourself trying to make proofs or points for issues that have been discussed numerous times already on this forum, as if you are opposing or proving me wrong. You don't know if I hold all the views of one catergory or the other; or some views from both categories. If I want to discuss one of the points individually, I will do it in a thread dedicated to that subject or start one of my own.
If what you are saying is true then please provide a link to thread where this has been provided or better yet the passage in the great reading where it is stated that "malaika" are "angels made of light". I am not trying to prove you wrong. Everyone who read the great reading, already knows you are wrong. I am only trying to prove that it is not easy to let go of old inherited beliefs that have no basis in the great reading even for someone who sincerely calls himself "ImamQuranonly". We all have been there before with respect to one baseless belief or another. The only way to go beyond this is to focus solely on the truth and not on dividing people into categories and sects. I hope that this helps you to see the real point.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaams ayman,
I seem to have struck a nerve for you to. Seems that you and your friends don't like to label yourselves, although you do it by default. You seem to miss one important point dude
There also seems to be another divide happening in the sense of "freeminders" and "Quran aloners".
This is just a brief sample, but there seems to be a growing divide to the point that freeminders may end up just calling themselves a part of the universal force that we call "God", and hence the ultimate result is that we are all "gods", not a new concept...but one called shirk in Al Quran.
Let's all pray that Allah guides us all to be better understanding and peace.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Figure it out and get back to me. Also, prove from the list what I presented as my own personal beliefs. Good luck!
Salaams, peace
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I am only trying to prove that it is not easy to let go of old inherited beliefs that have no basis in the great reading even for someone who sincerely calls himself "ImamQuranonly". Peace,
Ayman
Surprise surprise Dr. Ayman,
You're not the only one that has a problem with this name! confused Is it the "Only" part? Or is it the "Quran" part?
Or let me take a WILD guess and say it is the "IMAM" part? rotfl Sounds like a lot of you are suffering from residual sunnism effects.
Maybe you should study "Imam" in the context of "Quran" only! yes hmm
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Peace AQO,
Wow !! great information
Would you please provide the evidence/proof from the great bookI am glad you liked it. Here is the evidence
013.035
YUSUFALI The parable ("mathal"/allegory) of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the Fire.047.015
YUSUFALI (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?There is nothing like paradise or hell here in this low life. So naturally, their descriptions are allegorical. Paradise is better than you can imagine and hell is worst than you can imagine.
Interestingly, one of the purposes of the provided descriptions of hell is to warn the god's servants
039.016
YUSUFALI They shall have Layers of Fire above them, and Layers (of Fire) below them with this doth Allah warn off his servants "O My Servants! then fear ye Me!"The unappreciative/rejecters don't believe in the afterlife and thus don't believe in the absolutely certain outcome of either hell or (if we are saved by our lord's mercy) paradise. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether they are warned or not, so this warning message doesn't matter for them. They are going to hell for certain.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace IQO,
Figure it out and get back to me. Also, prove from the list what I presented as my own personal beliefs. Good luck!
I don't get it. You are asking me to prove your own beliefs. How can I prove your beliefs if you can't prove them yourself?
Are you saying that you really don't believe that "malaika" are "angels made of light" and that you were just fooling around?
If so, why did you present the belief that "malaika" are "angels made of light" under the beliefs of what you call "Quran Only" group? Perhaps "ImamQuranOnly" is just a playful misnomer on your part and has nothing to do with what you believe.
We are still waiting on the proof from the great reading that "malaika" are "angels made of light". Why is it that you are suddenly distancing yourself from what you stated are the "Quran Only" group beliefs when cornered on proofs? Is this how far you would go to avoid admitting to the truth and correcting your mistake? You had the opportunity to correct but instead you demonstrated arrogance. I am not writing this for your benefit. It is for the benefit of those who seek the truth. They can empirically verify in this discussion that those who like to divide into groups and sects do it out of arrogance and so they can give the impression of their group being "superior" to the other one. On the other hand, we should focus on the truth that unites us.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace AQO,
I am sorry I missed this comment in my earlier response. I guess you may have added it after I replied.
From where did you deduce the word "avoid" means "avoid as much as possible".
When Allah commands "avoid" ,it means avoid .There is no as much as possible type thing.The dictionary meaning of "ijtanib" is to pass besides or avoid ("janab" means side). I think that one can see the difference between "forbidden" and "to be avoided" in their usage in the great reading. For example, there is license given for violating the forbidden pig's meat when one is under duress. No such license is given for the "to be avoided" intoxicants. So if as you say "avoid" means to 100% absolutely not consume it under any circumstances then you can't get anestesia in an operation and you can't drink fruit juice or eat ripe (i.e. has some fermentation) fruit.
Another example is 2230 where we are told to avoid saying falsehood. Again, this is a clear case of something that is to be avoided as much as possible but often people would inadvertently say something false. For example, perhaps you were mocking when you said
Wow !! great information
In this case, you have actually said a falsehood that you didn't really believe to be true. If so then what you did is not "haram" (absolutely forbidden) but is to be avoided. I hope that you can see the difference.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace AQO,
I am sorry I missed this comment in my earlier response. I guess you may have added it after I replied.
The dictionary meaning of "ijtanib" is to pass besides or avoid ("janab" means side). I think that one can see the difference between "forbidden" and "to be avoided" in their usage in the great reading. For example, there is license given for violating the forbidden pig's meat when one is under duress. No such license is given for the "to be avoided" intoxicants. So if as you say "avoid" means to 100% absolutely not consume it under any circumstances then you can't get anestesia in an operation and you can't drink fruit juice or eat ripe (i.e. has some fermentation) fruit.
Another example is 2230 where we are told to avoid saying falsehood. Again, this is a clear case of something that is to be avoided as much as possible but often people would inadvertently say something false. For example, perhaps you were mocking when you said
In this case, you have actually said a falsehood that you didn't really believe to be true. If so then what you did is not "haram" (absolutely forbidden) but is to be avoided. I hope that you can see the difference.
Peace,
Ayman
As far Hell and paradise is concerned ,be clear in one sentence wheather you believe in their physical existence or not ?
You said
The dictionary meaning of "ijtanib" is to pass besides or avoid ("janab" means side). I think that one can see the difference between "forbidden" and "to be avoided" in their usage in the great reading. For example, there is license given for violating the forbidden pig's meat when one is under duress. No such license is given for the "to be avoided" intoxicants. So if as you say "avoid" means to 100% absolutely not consume it under any circumstances then you can't get anestesia in an operation and you can't drink fruit juice or eat ripe (i.e. has some fermentation) fruit.
When laws are formulated these are always generalized.Exceptions are not included in this generalization. If your standard is taken into consideration then nothing becomes "haraam".Look at this aya
2173
Even these haraam things are permitted in "Iztiraar" .It does not mean you can eat them in your "dinners".
But such things require knowledge to know.
There is clear command of Allah about wine "Avoid".
I have asked you from where did you pull "as much as possible".
I need evidence for it . -
Salaams Dr. Ayman,
By the way, exactly what type of doctor are you? (just curious)
I don't get it.
That's quite obvious from your continuous nonsensical and non important tirades. Try checking yourself.
Perhaps "ImamQuranOnly" is just a playful misnomer on your part and has nothing to do with what you believe.
Still hung up on the name huh? hmm I see you didn't take my advice in my last post.
They can empirically verify in this discussion that those who like to divide into groups and sects do it out of arrogance and so they can give the impression of their group being "superior" to the other one.
You are calling me arrogant because I pointed out a divide that I saw from the attitudes and posts on this forum? nope No sir, I think you are the ARROGANT one with a superiority complex. wow
Have you been waiting for months to try to find one thing to try and challenge me on so that you can feel superior? nope It seems so and that makes me feel really sorry for you. '( You really should make better use of your time and faculties. yes You and your points in this thread are petty. You know what points I made and so does anyone that can read clearly. handshake
peace
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If it is/was so meaningless, why are your panties all in a wad? yeah
Im not crying...Im point out how silly you all look trying to prove points to me when you don't understand the point that I made.
If it is so silly, why are you giving it so much attention? hmm Again, sounds like I struck a nerve no matter how much you deny it!
Feel free to be as silly as you like, but you can't change your words. Yes, you are crying and being defensive, for what reason, I have no idea, but if this forum really annoys you, you can just press the "X" in the top right corner and it'll stop pestering you.
You can tell yourself that you "struck a nerve" all you like, sometimes a little self-reassurance is good, even when you happen to be lost.
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Feel free to be as silly as you like, but you can't change your words. Yes, you are crying and being defensive, for what reason, I have no idea, but if this forum really annoys you, you can just press the "X" in the top right corner and it'll stop pestering you.
You can tell yourself that you "struck a nerve" all you like, sometimes a little self-reassurance is good, even when you happen to be lost.
You and ayman still don't understand. nope Btw, I never said you are annoying me...I find this quite amusing and funny actually. I really didn't know you two were quite so childish or had such a sense of humor. bravo
You think I am crying and being defensive? rotfl You really have no idea who you are dealing with then.
Please, keep pestering me and making a fool of yourself all that you like. ! Here is more amo to help yourself with. eat I can't change my words? & Okay, how about you now respond to this quote (happy hunting handshake)
Salaams all,
There also seems to be another divide happening in the sense of "freeminders" and "Quran aloners".
Quran Aloner vs. Free-mind Alone
A Free-Mind Aloner
- Believes there is no worship of Allah..He doesn?t need it.
- Therefore there is no such thing as ritual prayer, just meditation like Yoga
- You can drink alcohol if you like, just be moderate cause you are warned about it.
- Women can dress any way the society deems appropriate, just at least wear a bra.
- There are no such things as Angels, they are just forces of nature or aspects of human beings.
- There are no such things as Jinn, they are just mankind?s alter ego.
- Paradise and Hellfire are states of being in this life, not a new creation in the afterlife
8 There is no gathering day such as Friday, for believers to gather and hear the message since days of the week don?t exist in Al Quran. - Men and women are equal in everything including their roles in life given by Allah.
- To determine the best meaning of a word, phrase or subject matter of Al Quran, the meaning of the root of the word is the single most important factor and takes all precedent over context and understanding.
A Quran Aloner
- Believes that we must worship Allah, even though He doesn?t need it, because it benefits us and we were ordered to do it as a sign of our faith.
- There is worship of Allah in the form of a ?ritual prayer? called As Salaat.
- Alcohol is forbidden to drink because it intoxicates the mind, as are any other intoxicants that would make a person not normal during regular life.
- Women and men, but particularly women are given a dress code in Al Quran from Allah that specifies how they are different then men in their necessity.
- Angels are beings THAT ARE MESSENGERS MADE WINGS TWO AND THREE AND FOUR, that are part of the unseen that a believer is required to believe in to qualify as a believer.
- Jinn are beings created from a smokeless fire that are part of the unseen that a believer is required to believe in to qualify as a believer.
- Paradise and Hellfire are real creations of Allah that we experience in the after life, although similarities of both can be found in this life.
8 There are gathering days for believers to gather and learn together from the book. - Men and Women are equal in their service to Allah in the aspects of their soul, but Allah has given them different defined roles in society to create a balance and harmonious life style for the human being on earth.
- The best meaning of words should be used in the context of a given verse to determine what its true meaning is.
This is just a brief sample, but there seems to be a growing divide to the point that freeminders may end up just calling themselves a part of the universal force that we call "God", and hence the ultimate result is that we are all "gods", not a new concept...but one called shirk in Al Quran.
Let's all pray that Allah guides us all to be better understanding and peace.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Now what are your responses to the POINT of the post? rotfl rotfl rotfl
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You might want to see the first post of mine...
Again you just gave two empty names and assigned them a creed you made up on the spot. It's very hard to respond to a post which has no logical content, so you will have to excuse me from replying to this last one bro )
You think I am crying and being defensive? rotfl You really have no idea who you are dealing with then. Wink
A rather ironic sentence.
Please, keep pestering me and making a fool of yourself all that you like.
Do you realise you can press the X in the corner and stop being pestered by Free-Minds? If you want to be pestered then go ahead but that's quite a strange fetish. )
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Peace.
I do not know if all who frequent free-minds.org are in the first category, but I can definitely see your point...I can see the different types of views.
There are those who are all literal and then those who are allegorical.
I am beginning to see what you are saying even clearer than before.
I will no longer be coming here...
Peace to all the believers.
last time as YTV
I find this rather ironic considering you've been here for a very long time under different identities, you've known all this before, why come back then and say the same...There will be no more change of identities this time I'm afraid. Rules, besides if one looks at the big picture...it's safer that way.
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Again you just gave two empty names and assigned them a creed you made up on the spot. It's very hard to respond to a post which has no logical content, so you will have to excuse me from replying to this last one bro )
Do you realise you can press the X in the corner and stop being pestered by Free-Minds? If you want to be pestered then go ahead but that's quite a strange fetish. )
You may want to call them empty names, but many here continually use them and called themselves that, regardless of if you want them to or not! Sorry dude. & wow
Im not at all pestered by Free-Minds. That's your ridiculous assumption because I struck a nerve in you because of the labels of non-named people, of which you clearly choose to put yourself in one of their groups. bravo Not very smart for someone who claims to hate labels. nope
Maybe you are the one who should check out of freeminds if you don't like my posts. hmm Or you can join the growing list of those who choose to ignore them yes I really won't care. ;D
Salaams handshake