Quran inheritance mistake

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

Salaam Eid, all

I enjoyed reading your well organized post, and the full explanation. However, I have a few points to comment on, and of course the ever debated "kelala" issue. So I will start with the first point of concern
I am not sure about this. The verses speak of "awlaad" not "abnaa'", which is the difference between "children" and "descendants, including grand children; just like the difference between "waalid" and "ab". Unless they speak of "abnaa'", I believe it's about children only.

Thanks, only three verses going on 18 months now...lol

411 God directs you in your CHILDREN

Question is does Qur?an view a grandchild as a person?s child, as for example with little Barack?

http//ladydi377.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/barack-obama-and-grandfather.jpg

I do not know why you suddenly moved to a "spouseless" case. This "kelala" is being inherited as spouse, because the address from the beginning of the verse is shifted from "about the desceased" in 411 to "you who survive a spouse", and the kelala is the spouse you survive. Please re-reed the verse again.

To husband
412 And for you half what your spouses/wives left

To wives
412 ...and for them the quarter from what you left

Kalala (i.e. spouseless, no father)
412...and if was a man to be inherited kalalatan or a woman

People marry, have children, get divorced, spouse dies, has be spouse-less case with children 412 then without 4176

But the verse does not say that! It says if someone dies not for him/her a child/ . In context it says (They ask your legal understanding , say God explains to you the legal definition of kelala if someone dies, not for him a child.../ .
The only thing I can conclude form this is that if someone without children, but not dead, he/she is not kelala (not yet, at least).

There is no legal definition in the verse ? that is an assumption. It says precisely the case for a kalala without child

4176 ?"God decrees in alkalalati, if human died, not for him a child

The problem with traditionalists, whose understanding seem correct, is that they presumed that (only daughters) are not to be considered as "descendants". They make the gruesome mistake of (if someone dies not to him a child in imri'un halaka laisa lahu walad/ ) when they took "walad" to mean "son" instead of "child". This is what the Islamic Shai3a is based on, in addition to the many errors concerning female children share.

Parentless and childless contradicts; nothing to differentiate siblings in 412 /4176, e.g.

What amount to give an only sister, 1/6 (412) or 1/2 (4176)?

Cannot use spouseless to toggle between the two verses, examples

wife, sister
1 ? 1/4 wife ? 1/6 sister = 7/12 unallocated if using 412?

1 ? 1/4 wife ? 1/2 sister = 1/4 unallocated if using 4176?

brother, 2 sisters
412... so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third
1 ? 1/3 = 2/3 unallocated?

brother, 2 sisters
4176...to the male alike fortune the two females

Peace

nwryn

Salaam Eid, all,

Thanks for your detailed explanation.

Anything remaining or in the case there is no will distributions are to be done according to Quran

That just won't happen unless mentioned in a will. The other thing is that if your gift of estate fails, it will be distributed according to the laws of the land. Some people prefer to have it distributed according to Qur'aanic verses.

When there is an equal # of boys and girls, they share equally with a ratio 11

Examples with total inheritance estate of $100k

1 daughter, 1 son (1f 1m) ratio is 11
1 daughter = $50k or 1/2; 1 son = $50k or 1/2

2 daughters, 2 sons (2f 2m) ratio is 11
2 daughters = $50k (1/2); 2 sons = $50k or 1/2

1 daughter, 4 sons (1f 4m) ratio is 11
1 daughter gets $50k or 1/2
4 sons = $12.5k each ($50k total); they split remaining 1/2

1 daughter, 10 sons (1f 10m) ratio is 11
$50k + $50k = $100k
1 daughter gets 1/2; 10 sons get $5k each split remaining 1/2

"If she is one so to her the half" - does this mean

if ratio of femalemale is 11, or
if the number of females is one?
It's got to be one or the other, surely.

Kalaalah
Siblings only inherit from a kalaalah. 411 seems to suggest that siblings may inherit in the presence of parents. Therefore kalaalah cannot be parentless or fatherless. Also, I think "parents are heirs" means both parents are alive, though I might be wrong.

only three verses going on 18 months now...lol

I have learned a lot from what everyone has contributed to this thread, things I'd never considered before. Keep up the great work! bravo

Maybe there is a reason why the third verse doesn't come consecutively after the first two and not even until the very end of the chapter.

unknownuser

Salaam nwryn,

Salaam Eid, all,

Thanks for your detailed explanation.

That just won't happen unless mentioned in a will. The other thing is that if your gift of estate fails, it will be distributed according to the laws of the land. Some people prefer to have it distributed according to Qur'aanic verses.

"If she is one so to her the half" - does this mean

if ratio of femalemale is 11, or
if the number of females is one?
It's got to be one or the other, surely.

You are very welcome.

the ratios revolve around # of females 2, > 2, or 1

Kalaalah
Siblings only inherit from a kalaalah. 411 seems to suggest that siblings may inherit in the presence of parents. Therefore kalaalah cannot be parentless or fatherless. Also, I think "parents are heirs" means both parents are alive, though I might be wrong.

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Correct if both parents alive
1 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

Siblings share with mother obviously; with father alive they get nothing -- not a kalala case thus inapplicable.

Peace

herbman

Salam,

just a question, and what about 47

From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large, a determinate share.

are we talking about equal share?

nwryn

Salaam Eid,

the ratios revolve around # of females 2, > 2, or 1

Then how do you know that if the number of females is equal to the number of males (e.g. 2 daughters and 2 sons), they each get an equal share?

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Correct if both parents alive
1 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

Siblings share with mother obviously; with father alive they get nothing -- not a kalala case thus inapplicable.

Are you saying that "his parents inherited him" means both parents are alive? And "if brethren were for him" means the case when "his parents inherited him" definitely does not apply? Why couldn't it apply (i.e. not for him a child AND his parents inherited him AND brethren were for him)?

mother, father, wife wife = 1/4, mother = 1/3, father = 5/12?

unknownuser

Salaam,

just a question, and what about 47

From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large, a determinate share.

are we talking about equal share?

Depends on the circumstances; a share specified is not necessarily equal; see also...

4118

God cursed him, and he said "I will take from your worshipers a specified share."

Salaam Eid,

Then how do you know that if the number of females is equal to the number of males (e.g. 2 daughters and 2 sons), they each get an equal share?

The same ratio (11) femalesmales thus we logically deduce as with only brothers (not specified) for example they all get equal shares.

Are you saying that "his parents inherited him" means both parents are alive?

Yes.

And "if brethren were for him" means the case when "his parents inherited him" definitely does not apply?

Yes.

Why couldn't it apply (i.e. not for him a child AND his parents inherited him AND brethren were for him)?

mother, father, wife wife = 1/4, mother = 1/3, father = 5/12?

husband, mother, father

1 - 1/2 husband - 1/3 mother = 1/6 father (half as the mother; then there are other complications)

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Think of the "so if" fa-in as a logical ELSE IF statement.

Peace

nwryn

Peace Eid, all,

The same ratio (11) femalesmales thus we logically deduce as with only brothers (not specified) for example they all get equal shares.

OK, I understand this now and it makes sense to me. The 3+ females is in relation to each male, because the statement begins with "fa" and is therefore related to the preceeding statement. The one female is not in relation to each male, but is the absolute number of females, because the statement begins with "wa".

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Think of the "so if" fa-in as a logical ELSE IF statement.

So, "brethren were for him" is a replacement for "his parents inherited him", i.e. siblings instead of father. Is this still in the case of no children? I would assume so, because the mother gets 1/6 anyway, regardless of the presence of siblings, if there are children. Does this mean that siblings only inherit in the absence of children? That would contradict the understanding gained from 412 and 4176 - that a kalaalah does not have to be childless.

husband, mother, father

1 - 1/2 husband - 1/3 mother = 1/6 father (half as the mother; then there are other complications)

I'm not sure what you were showing with this example; please could you clarify?

Thanks

nwryn

I have a question who is included in al-aqrabeen/aqraboon (2180, 47)?

Union

Dear Eid , Salam .

Please clarify

Ex 02 daughters , 03+ sons ?

I know there is a set up in the ratio table but I do appriciate if you expalin me from the verse itself .

mmouhammad

There is no such thing as Quran inheritance mistake; this is due to our misunderstanding.

Peace all,

I think the inheritance laws as defined in the Quran are based on logical conditional sequence of events similar to if <condition> True x, False y where x or y get applied as the conditions being evaluated.

You will notice that the most common logical true or false evaluation that affects the shares of all inheritors is <Are there children?>. Furthermore, I found that the most logical sequence of events and tests is to start with the second Kalalah "" as in verse 4176 and follow the steps as below.

To start, there are two types of Kalalah ""

The second Kalalah "" as mentioned in the Quran is in verse 4176 and it means the deceased left no spouse, parents or children behind.
? Verse 4176 is the only applicable verse, the remainder will be distributed to the near and relatives as known "".

The first Kalalah "" is in verse 412 and it means the deceased left no spouse or parents behind, however, the deceased lift children behind.
? If the deceased had a brother or a sister then for each is 1/6, if he had more than 2 brothers and sisters then they are all partners in the 1/3. The last part of verse 412 is applied
? The balance 2/3 will then be given to the children and will be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 411.
? In case no siblings alive the children get the whole inheritance and will be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 411.

All other cases, spouse, parents, siblings and children
? If the deceased had a spouse, the division as defined at the beginning of verse 412 is applicable.
o Case wife no children = 1/4 or 1/8 with children
o Case husband no children = 1/2 or 1/4 with children
? Remainder parents ? second part of verse 411 is applicable
o Case parents no children = mother 1/3, father 2/3 concluded
Case siblings = siblings 1/6, mother 1/6 reduced, father 2/3 no change as concluded.
o Case parents with children = each 1/6
? Remainder Children, the inheritance to be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 411.

unknownuser

Salaam all --

Apologies for delayed reply; needed new sign-on, misplaced password changing email plus inundated with work.

Reminds me of the saying; ?busy hands are happy hands.? lol

So, "brethren were for him" is a replacement for "his parents inherited him", i.e. siblings instead of father. Is this still in the case of no children?

Yes, that is correct. My understanding what differentiates Kalala of 412 and 4176 is presence of children and requires the mother gets same amount (1/6) with children and with siblings else there would be a contradiction.

I would assume so, because the mother gets 1/6 anyway, regardless of the presence of siblings, if there are children. Does this mean that siblings only inherit in the absence of children? That would contradict the understanding gained from 412 and 4176 - that a kalaalah does not have to be childless.

No, siblings can inherit with children; use 412 else if Kalala is without child use 4176

I'm not sure what you were showing with this example; please could you clarify?

Sure thing ? let?s reevaluate your earlier question again

Quote
Why couldn't it apply (i.e. not for him a child AND his parents inherited him AND brethren were for him)?

mother, father, wife wife = 1/4, mother = 1/3, father = 5/12?

Change above to 12ths to see what happens to the father?s shares in relation to mother

wife, mother, father
1 ? 3/12 wife ? 4/12 mother = 5/12 father or he gets 1/12 more than the mother

Now let?s change gender of the spouse

husband, mother, father
1 ? 6/12 husband ? 4/12 mother = 2/12 father or he gets half that of the mother

Now for example, let?s kill off the husband right before distributing the inheritance

mother, father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father or twice that of the mother

Or add siblings (i.e. brethren) to all the above

wife, 2 sisters, brother, mother, father
3/12 wife + 4/12 siblings (if using 412 else unknown if using 4176) + 4/12 mother = 1/12 father (notice inconsistencies)

Again change gender of spouse

husband, 2 sisters, brother, mother, father
6/12 husband + 4/12 siblings + 4/12 mother = 14/12 (which is too much and nothing left for the father)

I have a question who is included in al-aqrabeen/aqraboon (2180, 47)?

Have not looked into it throughly although would consider nearest besides parents are children, spouses, aymanukum (433), siblings, uncles/aunts not allowed to marry (423) should be taken into consideration when leaving a will or helping out; immediate, close, distant family, orphans and widows in community, tribe, nation, believers in need across the world.

Hope the above clarifies a bit.

Peace

unknownuser

Salaam Union,

Please clarify

Ex 02 daughters , 03+ sons ?

I know there is a set up in the ratio table but I do appriciate if you expalin me from the verse itself .

http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=1,%201,%202&cat=female-1,%20female-2,%20males

Pertaining to children it always revolves around #of females?

411
to the male alike fortune the two females

A better rendition would be ?to the masculine alike fortune the two feminine? since in English to the male makes it seem as referring to one male; grammar rules are not as such in the old Arabic (standards and grammar are a later addition in most languages) which the above is apparent if we cross-reference the term which also means remembrance i.e. any number of things which makes a person ?mindful? of God which of course is contained within Qur?an?

5417
and We have eased the Qur?an to the remembrance so is there from those who remember/are mindful

Peace mmouhammad,

There is no such thing as Quran inheritance mistake; this is due to our misunderstanding.

I think the inheritance laws as defined in the Quran are based on logical conditional sequence of events similar to if <condition> True x, False y where x or y get applied as the conditions being evaluated.

You will notice that the most common logical true or false evaluation that affects the shares of all inheritors is <Are there children?>. Furthermore, I found that the most logical sequence of events and tests is to start with the second Kalalah "" as in verse 4176 and follow the steps as below.

To start, there are two types of Kalalah ""

The second Kalalah "" as mentioned in the Quran is in verse 4176 and it means the deceased left no spouse, parents or children behind.
? Verse 4176 is the only applicable verse, the remainder will be distributed to the near and relatives as known "".

The first Kalalah "" is in verse 412 and it means the deceased left no spouse or parents behind, however, the deceased lift children behind.
? If the deceased had a brother or a sister then for each is 1/6, if he had more than 2 brothers and sisters then they are all partners in the 1/3. The last part of verse 412 is applied
? The balance 2/3 will then be given to the children and will be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 411.
? In case no siblings alive the children get the whole inheritance and will be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 411.

All other cases, spouse, parents, siblings and children
? If the deceased had a spouse, the division as defined at the beginning of verse 412 is applicable.
o Case wife no children = 1/4 or 1/8 with children
o Case husband no children = 1/2 or 1/4 with children
? Remainder parents ? second part of verse 411 is applicable
o Case parents no children = mother 1/3, father 2/3 concluded
Case siblings = siblings 1/6, mother 1/6 reduced, father 2/3 no change as concluded.
o Case parents with children = each 1/6
? Remainder Children, the inheritance to be divided according to the 3 categories at the beginning of verse 411.

Agree with your understanding Kalala with or without child is used to toggle between 412 and 4176.

Although the following are things to further have a look

Kalala having no parents; my understanding there is possibility of a mother.
Siblings inherit with father and or spouses leads to contradictions.

mother, 2 sisters, brother
1 - 1/6 mother(411) = 5/6 siblings (not Kalala thus no instructions how to divide amongst siblings)

mother, sister (not Kalala 412 and 4176 inapplicable yet case if sister explicitly stated)

mother, father, sister, brother (unknowns; how to divide amongst siblings or amount to give mother and father)

Ikhwatun requires the presence of a male same as with rijalan can have a male and 99 females.

Unless siblings are eliminated as inheritors with presence of a father and we use 411

mother, father, sister, brother {not Kalala, use 411 parents only inheritors}
...so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3

1 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 father {siblings get nothing}

wife, sister, mother {does not work, siblings cannot be inheritors with spouse}
1 - 1/4 wife = 3/4 exact amount to give mother and sister unknown

Try all the case permutations posted earlier?

4176 ?and God is with everything knowledgeable.

Peace

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

Thank you for your feed back, it was very helpful. I was able to make one change as per the following

411 If he has no children and his parents inherited him, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth...

First the above "part" verse as per my reading dose not negate the presence of spouse and is applicable in both cases with or without spouses for if there is a spouse, the spouse gets 1/4 F or 1/2 M, and since no children, the parents will inherit him "the balance" and if there is no spouse the parents will inherit all.

And his parents inherited him, as per my reading means both parents, yet does not negate the absence of either one. So in the case the parents inherited him, to his mother 1/3 so we conclude that the father gets 2/3 and if he has siblings to mother 1/6.

? Case parents no children = mother 1/3, father 2/3 concluded
o Case siblings = mother 1/6 reduced, siblings 5/6 shared with or without father " "

I think this case is more logical since God allotted variable shares for father and siblings then " " as used in 4176 Kalalah case or equal shares as in 412 kalalah case.

The above conditions are applicable only in the absence of children when either or both of the parents inherit the balance after the spouse or all when there is no spouse. The key condition is the allotted share for the mother 1/3 and the change of that share to 1/6 when there are siblings. The value of shares other than mother changes according to number of inheritors that is why it is called luck "".

The question is that will the father argue that his share is 2/3 as concluded in the case of no children and only that the mother's share was reduced to 1/6 in case of siblings.

I think the concept of variables should convince him, what do you think?

In Kalalah cases God states different shares applicable in each case. However, the presence of either one of the main inheritors namely the spouse, father and mother immediately negates Kalalah cases and revert to applicable categories in verses 411 and 412.

mmouhammad

Peace all,

I posted the following subject under Questions/Comments on the Quran

Alkalalah "", what does it mean?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598626.0

nwryn

Salaam Eid, all,

Apologies for delayed reply; needed new sign-on, misplaced password changing email plus inundated with work.

Reminds me of the saying; busy hands are happy hands. lol

You're more punctual than me!! But you're a beginner again now lol

Pertaining to children it always revolves around #of females

411
to the male alike fortune the two females

A better rendition would be to the masculine alike fortune the two feminine since in English to the male makes it seem as referring to one male; grammar rules are not as such in the old Arabic (standards and grammar are a later addition in most languages) which the above is apparent if we cross-reference the term which also means remembrance i.e. any number of things which makes a person mindful of God which of course is contained within Quran

5417
and We have eased the Quran to the remembrance so is there from those who remember/are mindful

Then ... it is always the number of females, and not the ratios of daughters to sons? So for 3 daughters and 3 sons, the daughters share in 2/3 and sons share in 1/3? This is different to what you said before - that if the number of daughters equals the number of sons, they each get an equal share.

Ikhwatun requires the presence of a male same as with rijalan can have a male and 99 females.

So ikhwatun cannot apply to only one sister? Can it apply to only one brother?

Yes, that is correct. My understanding what differentiates Kalala of 412 and 4176 is presence of children and requires the mother gets same amount (1/6) with children and with siblings else there would be a contradiction.

No, siblings can inherit with children; use 412 else if Kalala is without child use 4176

brickwall I have to think about this.

Quote
Why couldn't it apply (i.e. not for him a child AND his parents inherited him AND brethren were for him)?

mother, father, wife wife = 1/4, mother = 1/3, father = 5/12?

I think those were two separate questions, since there were no brethren in the example I gave.

Or add siblings (i.e. brethren) to all the above

wife, 2 sisters, brother, mother, father
3/12 wife + 4/12 siblings (if using 412 else unknown if using 4176) + 4/12 mother = 1/12 father (notice inconsistencies)

Again change gender of spouse

husband, 2 sisters, brother, mother, father
6/12 husband + 4/12 siblings + 4/12 mother = 14/12 (which is too much and nothing left for the father)

If there are no children, siblings' share is determined from 4176. This share is unknown (not 4/12), and so is the father's, so you'd be correct to conclude from this that a kalaalah must be fatherless. However, mother doesn't get 4/12 in these cases - she gets 2/12.

wife, mother, father
1 3/12 wife 4/12 mother = 5/12 father or he gets 1/12 more than the mother

Now lets change gender of the spouse

husband, mother, father
1 6/12 husband 4/12 mother = 2/12 father or he gets half that of the mother

Now for example, lets kill off the husband right before distributing the inheritance

mother, father
1 1/3 mother = 2/3 father or twice that of the mother

Sorry, I still don't understand your point. The father's share is unspecified, so of course it is variable.

Have not looked into it throughly although would consider nearest besides parents are children, spouses, aymanukum (433), siblings, uncles/aunts not allowed to marry (423) should be taken into consideration when leaving a will or helping out; immediate, close, distant family, orphans and widows in community, tribe, nation, believers in need across the world.

I had another look at this - do you think the shares referred to in 47 are those in 411-12 and 4176? Then it would include children, spouses and siblings only.

peace

Union

Salaam Union,

http//www.mathcracker.com/piechartimage.php?data=1,%201,%202&cat=female-1,%20female-2,%20males

Pertaining to children it always revolves around #of females?

411
to the male alike fortune the two females

A better rendition would be ?to the masculine alike fortune the two feminine? since in English to the male makes it seem as referring to one male; grammar rules are not as such in the old Arabic (standards and grammar are a later addition in most languages) which the above is apparent if we cross-reference the term which also means remembrance i.e. any number of things which makes a person ?mindful? of God which of course is contained within Qur?an?

Fair enough . Thanks .

Do you agree with with sister Samia that the male's fortune is equal to two females as a 'case' , not as a common condition , applying to any combinitions of male-female shares ...?

unknownuser