Virgin Birth of Isa

belH

Arnold
You did it again wow

you are not using Desicive verses from the Quran to prove your CLIAM. The Desicive Quranic verses that supports The Virgin Birth of Jesus are

Salam everybody,

Who is the father of Jesus, I think the answer is withing the great reading

She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
Faittakhathat min doonihim hijabanfaarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan

IMHO, the messenger who was sent to her is the father of Jesus.

She said ?I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith.?
Qalat innee aAAoothu bialrrahmani minka in kunta taqiyyan

The human being mesenger granted her of a son according the creator laws. Like 7.189 (see below), the messenger he dwelled with her.

He said ?I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son.?
Qala innama ana rasoolurabbiki li-ahaba laki ghulaman zakiyyan
She said ?How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such?
Qalat anna yakoonu lee ghulamunwalam yamsasnee basharun walam aku baghiyyan

It is easy for a female and its mate to have a baby if they submit to the creator laws.

He said ?It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained.?
Qala kathaliki qalarabbuki huwa AAalayya hayyinun walinajAAalahu ayatan lilnnasiwarahmatan minna wakana amran maqdiyyan
So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
Fahamalat-hu faintabathatbihi makanan qasiyyan
He is the One who created you from one person, and He made from it its mate to reside with. 1) When he dwelled with her, 2) she became pregnant with a light load, and she continued with it; then when it became heavy, they called on God, their Lord ?If You give us an upright child, then we will be among the thankful.?
Huwa allathee khalaqakum min nafsinwahidatin wajaAAala minha zawjaha liyaskunailayha falamma taghashshaha hamalathamlan khafeefan famarrat bihi falamma athqalatdaAAawa Allaha rabbahuma la-in ataytanasalihan lanakoonanna mina alshshakireena

Like the believing woman who granted herself to the prophet, the human being messenger granted mary of a son by granting hisself to her.
3350. O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, and those who are committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who granted herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are committed to them by oath. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyuinna ahlalna laka azwajaka allateeatayta ojoorahunna wama malakat yameenuka mimmaafaa Allahu AAalayka wabanati AAammika wabanatiAAammatika wabanati khalika wabanatikhalatika allatee hajarna maAAaka waimraatanmu/minatan in wahabat nafsaha lilnnabiyyi in aradaalnnabiyyu an yastankihaha khalisatanlaka min dooni almu/mineena qad AAalimna ma faradnaAAalayhim fee azwajihim wama malakat aymanuhumlikayla yakoona AAalayka harajun wakana Allahughafooran raheeman

Idem, Zachariah asked the creator to grant him a progeny according the god laws.
338. It was then that Zachariah called on his Lord, he said ?My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are the hearer of prayers.?
Hunalika daAAa zakariyya rabbahu qala rabbi hab lee min ladunka thurriyyatantayyibatan innaka sameeAAu aldduAAa/-i

God knows best.

Peace

And The Bible Desicive verses that support Jesus Virgin Birth are

There are so many inaccuracies and misconceptions in the above statement. If I were to go through them, we would lose the point of the thread.
So, I'm going to ignore the above and move on to the verses.

Here is my usual note/warning on the verses I am posting....They are NOT accurate translations....the general idea is put forth in the translations and so I am using them to make a general point.

Read the WHOLE story starting with John 145. You are selecting this verse out of context.

First Nathanael refers to Jesus as the "bar" of Joseph

and then after a conversation with Jesus ....HE CORRECTS HIMSELF...

Joh 145 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the

son of Joseph.
Joh 146 And Nathanael said unto him, Can any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
Joh 147 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
Joh 148 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under

the fig tree, I saw thee.
Joh 149 Nathanael answered him, Rabbi, thou art the Creation of God; thou art King of Israel.
Joh 150 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee underneath the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater

things than these.
Joh 151 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending

upon the Son of man.

Again....the Jews are calling Jesus son of Joseph....JESUS is not calling HIMSELF son of Joseph....every time we see a referrence to Jesus being called son of Joseph...it is from an enemy to him...Jesus always corrects them.

Joh 635 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 636 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.
Joh 637 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 638 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 639 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Joh 640 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up

at the last day.
Joh 641 The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven.
Joh 642 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of

heaven?
Joh 643 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 644 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him and I will raise him up in the last day.
Joh 645 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto

me.
Joh 646 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father.

No....This is a fabrication.
If the Jews refer to anyone as their father it is usually Abraham or Jacob. This is common knowledge.
Do a google search on the subject....thats how common knowledge it is that the Jews do not refer to God as their father.

Just to illustrate how incorrect that statement is....

Here is a simple question to you....
IF the Jews call God their father....
THEN WHY DID THEY ACCUSE ISA of BLASPHEMY when they thought he had done as such?

Joh 197 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

That should be proof enough that what you are saying is INCORRECT.
However (as always) don't take my word for it, research it yourself (preferably before responding).

Jesus was not even the one speaking in those cases!

I have already posted verses showing YOU what ISA says....HE CORRECTS THESE MISCONCEPTIONS

Please RE-read my post (maybe at least 3-4 times before responding )....

brickwall ISA NEVER CLAIMS THE LINEAGE OF DAVID>>>>>

First of all I consider the letters of Paul as nonsense...

But even in the above Example....WHO's Son does it say it is?

Does it say Joseph? NO it does not.....

Look closely at who the names of the parents ARE (hint I have placed their names in bold print above)

No.
While there are parallells between ancient beliefs and the story of Jesus....The story of Jesus was not created from or Copied from these ancient beliefs.

IF you believe this then....since the story of Jesus is also in the Quran....Are you saying that the Quran is also a product of these ancient beliefs?

Salam,
Arnab

When you try to cancel out these Desicive (well-established meaning) Verses (from the Quran And Bible), you are using twisted lies (like the case of the Bible), and verses that do not have a well-established meanings (6-88 & 3-59) from the Quran. Well, here is God Opinion in people who do that

(&#65279

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (3-7)

Arnold!! STOP violating Gods Laws & Free-Minds.org rules.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

There are so many inaccuracies and misconceptions in the above statement. If I were to go through them, we would lose the point of the thread.
So, I'm going to ignore the above and move on to the verses.

For the above, please see the quote below by one of the major authorities on the Gospel to show I am correct in my claim.

Many of the sayings made in the Gospels that supposedly Jesus had said have a deep background in Jewish theology. Geza Vermes has written extensively about it and I have also discussed this a lot with Messianic Jews in my country who believe in Jesus as their Messiah. The term "Son of God" was used on 2 levels, on the common level used by everyone where God is referred to as Abba, Father. And a second level where the term Son of God was used for the Messiah descendants of David.

This is why the Jews in that verse accussed Jesus of heresy because they expected him to believe he is the Messiah, Son of God. Jesus himself avoided to be linked to the Talmudic version of the Messiah, and so did not refer to his lineage to David through Joseph, instead he let people focus on him being the son of man and a son of God as is anyone who beliefs in the Father.

Only being a descendant of David was one considered to be possibly the Messiah. And the lineages given in Matthew and Luke both link Jesus to David through Joseph, although they contradict it later on. But I will advice some books you can read on this that explain these matters much better then me, and save me time or going around in circles in Biblical study and Jewish theology.

Let me quote one of the main authorities on Jewish-Christian religion, Professor Geza Vermes

"The Synoptic use of the title 'son of God' reinforces the same proposition. The unwillinges of Jesus to be seen as the Davidic Messiah, liberator of Israel and conqueror of nations, obliges the informed reader to discard the aspect of 'sonship' which is intrinsically linked to the concept of the eschatological King."

The Letters of Paul are considered the oldest texts in the New Testament, older then the Gospel versions itself, and in the earliest letters he never referred to Jesus being born of a virgin. If the concept of virgin birth had happened, why doesn't he mention it? Why does Mark, the oldest Gospel, skip the whole virgin birth story and go straight to Baptisment of Jesus? This is why in critical Bible study it is taught that the concept of virgin birth was a later development through Roman/Egyptian influences who saw Mithra in Jesus and so gave Jesus a god-birth by a virgin as was many of their saviour gods as Apollo, Mithra, Horus and so on.

One of the main problems we have here is, as you already mentioned yourself, the use of Bible translations. I have already showed 1 major point, that of the oldest parts of the New Testament not mentioning or concerning itself with a virgin birth, this already raises suspicion of the matter. Now let us check the language that is used and see also that the word "virgin" is many times a mistranslation within the Gospels. Arnab, you always stress the importance of knowing the whole backgrounds of words in the languages to get a good view on the word, so let's do that.

First let's go back to Matthew's background being the reason for why he wrote certain things.

Let me again also quote one of the main authorities on Jewish-Christian religion, Professor Geza Vermes

" 'Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel, which means God with us' (Matt 123). The reading 'virgin' is that of the Septuagint version of the Greek Bible, and Matthew's gloss, interpreting the symbolic name Emmanuel as a pointer to the superhuman nature of the miraculous child, also implies that a non-Jewish readership was envisaged. Jews would have known that the name Emmanuel ('God with us&#039 signified not the incarnation of God in human form, but a promise of divine help to the Jewish people.

Readers familiar with the Hebrew Isaiah would have been perplexed by Matthew's argument because the word used by the Old Testament prophet was 'young woman' (in Hebrew 'almah&#039, and not 'virgin' (in Hebrew betulah). A young woman becoming pregnant is not the same as a virginal conception. The misleading rendering of 'almah' as parthenos ('virgin, maid&#039 was corrected in the later (first of second century AD) Greek translations of Isaiah; all of them substituted 'young girl' (neanis) for the Septuagint's 'virgin'(parthenos). In plain language, Matthew's genealogy and account of the birth reflect an image of Jesus born of a virgin which was exclusively designed for, and meaningful, in the Hellenistic Church.

Luke's account is entirely different and theologically more advanced. The announcement of the miraclous birth of Jesus is preceded by that of the quasi-miraculous birth of John the Baptist, son of the aged Elizabeth, a kinswoman of Mary. "

Then how did the Gospels use the words as understood by the first Christians

"To see the story of the conception of Jesus in a broader context, it is necessary to set it against other birth legends current in intertestamental Judaism. The authors of the Old Testament believed that sterility in a woman was caused by God closing her womb, but he could also re-open it and so render her fertile. Many of the biblical heroes, incuding the patriarchs Isaac, Jacob and Joseph, as well as the prophet Samuel, wer eborn to women considered to be barren-and in the case of Sarah, the wife of the ninety-nine year old Abraham, after lifelong sterility. In ancient Jewish society and culture these births were considered miraculous. Next, wemust not overlook in our evaluation of the Infancy Gospels that the term 'virgin' was capable of various interpretations among Jews. Of course, the absence of sexual experience was one, but the Greek parthenos could also mean that the girl was young and/or unmarried. In fact, in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament parthenos was used to render three distinct Hebrew words, 'virgin', 'girl' and 'young woman'. Already rabbis in the Tannataitic era (first to second century AD) subsribed to further nuances, and there is no reason to think that all these invented by them. Even the word betulah, which normally means virgo intacta, when used by them could carry the lateral sense of bodily immaturity with the consequential inability to conceive. In rabbinic terminology this type of virginity in a woman ceased with the physical onset of puberty. The Mishnah, the oldest of the rabbinic codes, defines a virgin as a female who 'has never seen blood even though she is married'. The Toseefta, another early Jewish code of law, claims in the name of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyracanus (late first century AD) that such a woman would continue without prior menstruation! To understand these statements, we must remember that in the intertestamental and early rabbinic age, pre-puberty marriage was generally permitted. In fact, rabbis seriously debated whether blood-stains found after the wedding night in the nuptial bed of a minor, i. e. a 'virgin in respect of menstruation', marked her first period of the consummation of the marriage."

So the idea of conceiving on the first physical oppertunity and thus becoming a 'virgin mother' was not a mere flight of fancy of the over-imaginative rabbinic mind."

To put in simple terms, the Greek word parthenos both represents the Hebrew words 'almah', young girl, and 'betulah', virgin. In Jewish terminology, a virgin was also a young woman who had given birth but had married before her first period. And these were seen as virgin mothers.

There are also researchers on the Aramic and Hebrew Gospels, that say the word almah is used and not betulah in the original Araimic and Hebrew.

All this together starts to give a far more complex picture of the story of Mary in the Bible, since it can be understood she was just a young woman being married. And that later on through Mithra/Horus influences this was changed to a real virgin birth story to make Jesus a new Mithra.

I also see this reflected in the Qur'an where Mary reacts to the messenger that no one has touched her because she was so young.

In the end it doesn't really matter what the Bible says as it is the Qur'an that determines everything, and we have discussed already many parts of it. And we are disagreeing on that, so no use going in circles.

As for this

If the Jews refer to anyone as their father it is usually Abraham or Jacob. This is common knowledge.
Do a google search on the subject....thats how common knowledge it is that the Jews do not refer to God as their father.
Just to illustrate how incorrect that statement is....
Here is a simple question to you....
IF the Jews call God their father....
THEN WHY DID THEY ACCUSE ISA of BLASPHEMY when they thought he had done as such?
Joh 197 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
That should be proof enough that what you are saying is INCORRECT.
However (as always) don't take my word for it, research it yourself (preferably before responding).

It surprises me that you make such a faulty claim as it is common knowledge that Abba is used by Jews for God. I have studied Theology on university level and the concept of Abba was one of the main courses, so I have researched it well as far as the courses allowed it. In the first century the concept of Abba had a special Talmudic meaning when concerning God. Also now in modern times Jews use the word Abba in their prayers and common references to God. I have double-checked this with Rabbi Gershom Tsriblisi, who is the head Rabbi of the Kariate Jews in the Benelux and Cyprus who I meet up with monthly at my house, and he confirms and also recited the prayers where Abba is used for God in their common prayers and invocations.

Let me again also quote one of the main authorities on Jewish religion, Professor Geza Vermes who has a whole chapter on Abba, Father in his book

"As has been seen in the discussion of the Kingdom of God, the idea of a heavenly Ruler was fundemental to the Jews in the Biblical inter-testamental and rabbinic ages. But so was the concept of God's Fatherhood. The two titles are coupled in the famous liturgical prayer, Avinu, malkenu (Our Father, our King), the origin of which is attributed by Talmudic tradition to Rabbi Akiba (d.c. AD 135) invocation before the ark of the synagogue which ended a bitter drought

Our Father, our King, we have sinned before Thee.
Our Father, our King, we have no King but Thee.
Our Father, our King, have mercy upon us."

The Religion of Jesus the Jew by Prof. Geza Vermes, page 152.

arnoldyasin

You did it again
You are not using Desicive verses from the Quran to prove your CLIAM. The Desicive Quranic verses that supports The Virgin Birth of Jesus are

Peace,

687-88 are decisive to me and many others. And Marie quoted the verses to show that it was a HUMAN/Basharan who conceived Jesus together with Mary, that you didn't see this shows you didn't read what she said, which is that the conception of Jesus followed the laws of nature just like any other birth.

As for the Bible verses, I advice to be careful to think Arnab has proven anything, please see above, since the Bible story is a complicated matter. You are now reacting with emotion just to prove you are right, and try to look so by 'threathning" with laws of God and of FM. But it doesn't impress me since you also avoid almost every commentary I give on verses and do not answer my questions to you, this shows you cannot really answer them. 687-88 has a well-established meaning that Jesus's father was blessed, why are you avoiding that verse?

Also please answer Samia's question about it meaning 'orphans' and 'father's name', since you haven't. Or are you avoiding?

belH

Peace,

687-88 are decisive to me and many others.

But it doesn't impress me since you also avoid almost every commentary I give on verses and do not answer my questions to you, this shows you cannot really answer them. 687-88 has a well-established meaning that Jesus's father was blessed, why are you avoiding that verse?

I think some people answered this one to you in the following thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16837.75

But you did not Get IT, or Get the other arguments.

Peace,

And Marie quoted the verses to show that it was a HUMAN/Basharan who conceived Jesus together with Mary, that you didn't see this shows you didn't read what she said, which is that the conception of Jesus followed the laws of nature just like any other birth.

Arnold the following is what Marie wrote

"1917. She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
Faittakhathat min doonihim hijabanfaarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan"

I will give another chance to Re-think your answer rotfl

As for the Bible verses, I advice to be careful to think Arnab has proven anything, please see above, since the Bible story is a complicated matter.

Now, the Bible is not OK rotfl

WHY DID YOU USE IT BEFORE

Also please answer Samia's question about it meaning 'orphans' and 'father's name', since you haven't. Or are you avoiding?

Samia is very tough ;D and I'm &
Also, I like you better and I do not want to Change the Debate main point

belH

" aabaa' Fathers" are not necessarily males only. Scan the qur'aan for this word "'aabaa'" and show me where it must be males only.

Arnold!
I will use Samia answer to make your argument wrong

687-88 says the offspring and fathers of Jesus and other Prophets were blessed. This is in clear Arabic.

"Nen Abaahim" does not mean Fathers, according to Samia. D

Now, answer her argument, or will you avoid? rotfl

unknownuser

Salam,

Arnold...you seem to IGNORE actual QURAN and Gospel scripture

and RELY HEAVILY on Commentators, and so called scholars.

BUT.....The QURAN AND GOSPEL SCRIPTURES speak loud and clear on the issue,

and TO ME that is the authority in this (and all) matters.

Keep this in mind in order to evaluate...

In this thread MANY people have posted SCRIPTURE that supports the topic.

You are providing quotes from COMMENTATORS to support your position.

So the question is .... BY WHAT DO YOU JUDGE?.....SCRIPTURE? or HERESAY?

Salam,
Arnab

Tay

Peace belalhammad,

So what you're saying is there's only one occurrence of either ibn or bint a male name, and only one occurrence of either ibn or bint a female name - is this correct?

marie

Peace belalhammad,

The Desicive Quranic verses that supports The Virgin Birth of Jesus are

Quote from marie on Yesterday at 073327 AM (see below)

Sorry, we can agree on our disagree, my last message you have quoted doesn't support your theory of the virgin birth of Jesus.

Peace

Quote from marie on Yesterday at 073327 AM
Salam everybody,

Who is the father of Jesus? I think the answer is within the great reading

She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
Faittakhathat min doonihim hijabanfaarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan

IMHO, the messenger who was sent to her is the father of Jesus.

She said I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith.
Qalat innee aAAoothu bialrrahmani minka in kunta taqiyyan

The human being mesenger granted her of a son according the creator laws. Like 7.189 (see below), the humanbeing messenger dwelled with her, then she became pregnant.

He said I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son.
Qala innama ana rasoolurabbiki li-ahaba laki ghulaman zakiyyan
She said How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such?
Qalat anna yakoonu lee ghulamunwalam yamsasnee basharun walam aku baghiyyan

It is easy for a female and its mate to have a baby if they submit to the creator laws (7189).

He said It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained.
Qala kathaliki qalarabbuki huwa AAalayya hayyinun walinajAAalahu ayatan lilnnasiwarahmatan minna wakana amran maqdiyyan
So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
Fahamalat-hu faintabathatbihi makanan qasiyyan
He is the One who created you from one person, and He made from it its mate to reside with. 1) When he dwelled with her, 2) she became pregnant with a light load, and she continued with it; then when it became heavy, they called on God, their Lord If You give us an upright child, then we will be among the thankful.
Huwa allathee khalaqakum min nafsinwahidatin wajaAAala minha zawjaha liyaskunailayha 1)falamma taghashshaha 2)hamalat hamlan khafeefan famarrat bihi falamma athqalatdaAAawa Allaha rabbahuma la-in ataytanasalihan lanakoonanna mina alshshakireena

Like the believing woman who granted herself to the prophet (3350), the human being messenger granted mary of a son by granting hisself to her.

O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, and those who are committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who granted herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are committed to them by oath. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyuinna ahlalna laka azwajaka allateeatayta ojoorahunna wama malakat yameenuka mimmaafaa Allahu AAalayka wabanati AAammika wabanatiAAammatika wabanati khalika wabanatikhalatika allatee hajarna maAAaka waimraatanmu/minatan in wahabat nafsaha lilnnabiyyi in aradaalnnabiyyu an yastankihaha khalisatanlaka min dooni almu/mineena qad AAalimna ma faradnaAAalayhim fee azwajihim wama malakat aymanuhumlikayla yakoona AAalayka harajun wakana Allahughafooran raheeman

Idem, Zachariah asked the creator to grant him a progeny according the god laws.
338. It was then that Zachariah called on his Lord, he said My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are the hearer of prayers.
Hunalika daAAa zakariyya rabbahu qala rabbi hab lee min ladunka thurriyyatantayyibatan innaka sameeAAu aldduAAa/-i

God knows best.

Peace

unknownuser

<< Mark 6 >>
Young's Literal Translation
1 And he went forth thence, and came to his own country, and his disciples do follow him, 2 and sabbath having come, he began in the synagogue to teach, and many hearing were astonished, saying, 'Whence hath this one these things? and what the wisdom that was given to him, that also such mighty works through his hands are done? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?' -- and they were being stumbled at him. 4 And Jesus said to them -- 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his kindred, and in his own house;' 5 and he was not able there any mighty work to do, except on a few infirm people having put hands he did heal them; 6 and he wondered because of their unbelief. And he was going round the villages, in a circle, teaching,

The dialog is clear; there was no biological father according to Qur'an nor do we live in a godless universe...

Maryam 1927-30

Faatat bihi qawmaha tahmiluhu qaloo ya maryamu laqad ji/ti shay-an fariyyan

So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."

Peace

arnoldyasin

Salam,

Arnold...you seem to IGNORE actual QURAN and Gospel scripture

and RELY HEAVILY on Commentators, and so called scholars.

BUT.....The QURAN AND GOSPEL SCRIPTURES speak loud and clear on the issue,

and TO ME that is the authority in this (and all) matters.

Peace,

The word parthenos is the greek for ahmal/young woman and betulah/virgin, it is unclear thus which original word was used.
Jews in that time had weird rules what they considered a virgin, a woman married before her first menstruation was considered a virgin even though she had sex.
It is clear from critical Bible study that the oldest parts of the New Testament completely ignore a concept of virgin birth.
The Bible to me is the same as Hadith, a historical story written with a specific goal in mind on how to display history, is what is called Salvation history in Theology.
In the 1st century there were many religious groups that believed in a salvation-god born from a virgin, many of these groups took up the Jesus story and made it their own with their own theology, this is what made Christianity today. Roman Catholicism is just the Apollo/Sol Invictus movement that bases its doctrine now on Judeo scriptures instead of Roman legends.

The Qur'an is very clear to me, and to me it doesn't present a virgin-birth, and I am not alone this not only on this forum, but also many great Muslim scholars from past and present agree with it. But this is not said to make power to the arguments with numbers, just that I am not the one who came first with these conclusions, I just agree with them.

You try to escape-goat your way out of this by saying the "Gospel" is clear on this but that is not true if you keep in mind the above list I gave which is just clear science. So your confidence is only based on faulty translations and misunderstandings of a salvation history, not a true revelation by God. Some real words of Jesus have ended up in there, but I'm careful with how they are presented.

To also use the escape-goat of "commentators" vs YOUR interpretation being the real message will not cut it either.

So maybe it is just time to admit it is maybe, really maybe, possible that the story CAN be approached differently, you don't need to accept it, just accepting that it is maybe not all that ABSOLUTE as you try to present.

arnoldyasin

<< Mark 6 >>
Young's Literal Translation
1 And he went forth thence, and came to his own country, and his disciples do follow him, 2 and sabbath having come, he began in the synagogue to teach, and many hearing were astonished, saying, 'Whence hath this one these things? and what the wisdom that was given to him, that also such mighty works through his hands are done? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?' -- and they were being stumbled at him. 4 And Jesus said to them -- 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his kindred, and in his own house;' 5 and he was not able there any mighty work to do, except on a few infirm people having put hands he did heal them; 6 and he wondered because of their unbelief. And he was going round the villages, in a circle, teaching,

This only says he is the son of Mary. Maybe his father had died already? Or if you look at the first sentence, he was back in his own country, maybe where his mother came from, and so it is logical they refer to her since she was known to them? If I go to my mom's family, they know me there and address me as the son of Mary (my mom's name is Mary, no pun intended), and not as the son of Willem. When I go to people who know my father, they refer to me as the son of Willem.

Maryam 1927-30

Faatat bihi qawmaha tahmiluhu qaloo ya maryamu laqad ji/ti shay-an fariyyan

So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."

The verse only says

This only says she went to her family for the first time after the birth. Means they haven't seen Mary for very long, nor lived near where Mary had stayed otherwise they would have heard she was pregnant. This implies also that Mary was under a different caretaker, which can explain why they didn't know she was married to a specific person.
The verse says Baggihiya, which means anything that exceeds cultural or moral grounds. It doesn't need to directly address sexual misconduct, it can also refer to cultural rules being broken, which can imply that she broke the customs of her family, the Temple or that she married someone which she shouldn't had married, the bashara/human who came to her as a messenger.

Peace

arnoldyasin

Arnold!
I will use Samia answer to make your argument wrong
"Nen Abaahim" does not mean Fathers, according to Samia.

Now, answer her argument, or will you avoid?

Peace,

No, it can imply both mother and father. So both his father and mother were blessed. Still the verse doesn't change in its directness.

arnoldyasin

I think some people answered this one to you in the following thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16837.75

But you did not Get IT, or Get the other arguments.

The thread shows only YOU and it doesn't even discuss the subject.

Arnold the following is what Marie wrote

"1917. She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity.
Faittakhathat min doonihim hijabanfaarsalna ilayha roohana fatamaththala laha basharan sawiyyan"

So he was a human....verse is clear.

Now, the Bible is not OK

Such a childish way... I only used the Bible to show that the earliest Christians didn't knew the concept of virgin-birth as later Christians, this is also why the oldest parts don't mention it. You know this since I mentioned this twice already, but you try to hang on to every little scrap of arguments, doesn't matter how silly or circular they are. Shows you are running out of arguments...

unknownuser

The verse only says

This only says she went to her family for the first time after the birth. Means they haven't seen Mary for very long, nor lived near where Mary had stayed otherwise they would have heard she was pregnant. This implies also that Mary was under a different caretaker, which can explain why they didn't know she was married to a specific person.
The verse says Baggihiya, which means anything that exceeds cultural or moral grounds. It doesn't need to directly address sexual misconduct, it can also refer to cultural rules being broken, which can imply that she broke the customs of her family, the Temple or that she married someone which she shouldn't had married, the bashara/human who came to her as a messenger.

Maryam 1926 -30

So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the Merciful, a fast, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human. So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."

Why not speak to anyone?
Why carrying him?
Why point to him to speak?

No comment on the human gigolo

According to the Talmud, Yeshu was the son of a Jewish woman named Miriam who was betrothed to a carpenter. "Betrothed" means she was legally married to him, but she was not yet living with him or having sexual relations with him. The story says that Miriam was either raped by or voluntarily slept with Pandeira, a Greek or Roman soldier. Miriam than gave birth to Yeshu, who was considered a "mamzer" (bastard), a product of an adulterous relationship. The Talmud describes Yeshu as a heretic who dabbled in sorcery and lead the people astray. Later, the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Supreme Court&quot ordered Yeshu stoned to death and his dead body was hung from a tree until nightfall after his death, in accordance with the ancient Jewish punishment for heretics.

Jews accused the same and were chastised in Qur'an...

4156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.

arnoldyasin

Maryam 1926 -30

So eat and drink and be delighted/satisfied eye(s) (delight your eyes), so when you see anyone from the human, so say 'That I made a duty/vow (on myself) to the Merciful, a fast, so I will not converse/speak the day/today (to) a human. So she came with him (to) her nation carrying him, they said "You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute. So she pointed/indicated to him, they said "How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?" He said "That I am God's worshipper/slave, He gave/brought me The Book and He made me a prophet."

Why not speak to anyone?
Why carrying him?
Why point to him to speak?

No comment on the human gigolo )

According to the Talmud, Yeshu was the son of a Jewish woman named Miriam who was betrothed to a carpenter. "Betrothed" means she was legally married to him, but she was not yet living with him or having sexual relations with him. The story says that Miriam was either raped by or voluntarily slept with Pandeira, a Greek or Roman soldier. Miriam than gave birth to Yeshu, who was considered a "mamzer" (bastard), a product of an adulterous relationship. The Talmud describes Yeshu as a heretic who dabbled in sorcery and lead the people astray. Later, the Sanhedrin (the Jewish "Supreme Court&quot ordered Yeshu stoned to death and his dead body was hung from a tree until nightfall after his death, in accordance with the ancient Jewish punishment for heretics.

Jews accused the same and were chastised in Qur'an...

4156 And with their disbelief, and their saying on Mary great falsehood/slander.

I clearly say that I believe she was MARRIED to the person and this is what offended her family. And a child cannot speak, so it means Jesus was already at an age he could speak. talking from the cradle is a metaphor that was common in Jewish culture.

unknownuser

I clearly say that I believe she was MARRIED to the person and this is what offended her family. And a child cannot speak, so it means Jesus was already at an age he could speak. talking from the cradle is a metaphor that was common in Jewish culture.

Where does it say she was MARRIED to that person and this is what offended her family?

If he was at speaking age, why did she carry him, not speak, and point to him?

If metaphor why did they ask ? ?How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?"

HOW is a question not a metaphoric statement!

Peace

arnoldyasin

Where does it say she was MARRIED to that person and this is what offended her family?

If he was at speaking age, why did she carry him, not speak, and point to him?

If metaphor why did they ask ? ?How (do) we converse/speak (to) whom was in the crib/cradle a boy/child/infant?"

HOW is a question not a metaphoric statement!

Peace

Peace,

The marriage-part has been discussed before, please look it up.

A young person who was unmarried and had no beard was seen as a child in orthodox culture. They ask Mary a serious question and then she points to her son, who they see as not having the right to speak up since he is not seen as a man but as a child. How old Jesus exactly was when addressed in this verse I do not know, but a child cannot be a Prophet since he would not be taken seriously, nor could he defend himself in a threatening situation.

Nor could a child pay Zakat...

unknownuser

Peace,

The marriage-part has been discussed before, please look it up.

No, you show it to me -- it's not anywhere in Qur'an.

A young person who was unmarried and had no beard was seen as a child in orthodox culture. They ask Mary a serious question and then she points to her son, who they see as not having the right to speak up since he is not seen as a man but as a child.

Why did she point to him?
Had no beard and she carried him, right?

How old Jesus exactly was when addressed in this verse I do not know, but a child cannot be a Prophet since he would not be taken seriously, nor could he defend himself in a threatening situation.

Are you saying he was NOT a prophet, needs to learn martial arts, and God is not a protector?

Nor could a child pay Zakat...

Where does it say zakat is all about money and we are to start paying immediately as babies?

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Let's take 1 subject at the time.

Why did she point to him?
Had no beard and she carried him, right?

The word Hamala does not only mean "To carry something". it also means " To show"

= Haa-Miim-La = bore it, carried it, took it up, carried it, convey, show/manifest, carry a thing upon one's back or head, bear a burden, become pregnant with or conceive a child (woman), to go about spreading calumny or slander, give someone a beast to ride, mount someone upon a beast of burden, show or manifest anger, task or fatigue oneself, take a responsibility upon oneself, incite someone to do a thing, produce or put forth something , narrate and write down a thing , carry or do a thing, bear the burden of a calumny, to charge with a crime.

Are you saying he was NOT a prophet, needs to learn martial arts, and God is not a protector?

Would you listen to a child?
Prophethood mostly comes when they are adults as can be seen throughout the Quran.
We can also see being a Prophet is a very dangerous job and also needs certain wisdom and experience to carry out the job.
God protects through guidance/wahi.

Where does it say zakat is all about money and we are to start paying immediately as babies?

Doesn't matter if you understand it as "betterment" in any form, a child cannot do this in a way that it affects society. Especially in such a patriarchical culture as the Jews of the 1st century.

unknownuser

Peace,

The word Hamala does not only mean "To carry something". it also means " To show"

Alright, let?s see how this definition fits context?

After some years she came ?to show? him and they were upset, hurling insults?

"You Mary, you had come (with) a strange and confusing thing." You Aaron's sister, your father was not (a) human/man of bad/evil, and your mother was not an fornicatress/adulteress/prostitute.

Where was the husband/father?
Why was she told not to speak and pointed to the child to speak on her behalf instead?

Would you listen to a child?

Yes.

Prophethood mostly comes when they are adults as can be seen throughout the Quran.

Yes, mostly means there are exceptions...

1912 You John/Yahya, take The Book with power/strength, and We gave/brought him the judgment/rule (as) a boy/child/infant.

We can also see being a Prophet is a very dangerous job and also needs certain wisdom and experience to carry out the job.
God protects through guidance/wahi.

Yes, God protects with infinite combinations and other means including human protectors, etc.

Doesn't matter if you understand it as "betterment" in any form, a child cannot do this in a way that it affects society. Especially in such a patriarchical culture as the Jews of the 1st century.

Each gives charity according to their means; obviously a child is at a disadvantage.

Where does it say a child has to do this right away else it negates being a prophet child?