Virgin Birth of Isa
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Salaam Wakas,
Yes, of course it is about the divinity of Jesus, but I believe it also clearly says "he is created as any other human". I will write a more eloborate thoughtline when I have more time to show why and how I think this way.
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I have to agree with Arnold Yasin. The rest of mankind have simple births without any virgins being involved and Jesus is no different.
There is no point in fettering those verses to the concept that "Jesus is not divine" alone. That reeks of traditionalist idealogy and "context of revelation"/"asbab nuzool". It of course must mean that Jesus is no more divine than the average man, but it definitely cannot be restrained to just that statement alone - if God willed, god would have said exactly that in clear words and HAS DONE SO ALREADY (2116, 517, etc). Instead we get a comparison to men regarding his creation (again, said in general in 2117). I wonder if Zakariya is involved at all (339).
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peace Arnold, OPF,
I think we should be careful about the wording we use when saying things like "rejected by Quran" or "clear" etc. Hence this issue was brought up. Many members (and people generally in the real world) use strong terminology when it is uncalled for and cant be substantiated. Members need to be very wary of this due to its frequency.
Look forward to a more elaborate thoughtline from you both about this subject. I would say though, that a lot of discussion has taken place on this topic, in previous threads, like most other topics brought up on the forum.
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I agree that the quran does not "reject" but it passively implies that it's a farcical interpretation. If the quran describes god as al-haqq then why would anything in it be out of line with such a thing?
Anyway, the burden of proof is in the person suggesting change to established thought and they have to provide positive evidence to the contrary. The established thought, regardless of the 2.5 billion christians and the other billion muslims that may wish to say otherwise based on their beliefs alone, is that virgin births just do not happen and for humans, cannot happen. Find a modern person who has reproduced asexually without being cloned.
I can't believe people are allowing their interpretations of the quran to be derived from preconceptions and the idea that linguistically it doesn't rule it out - that just doesn't compute with and and nor should it if we hold to be true.
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There's another aspect called 'evidence' which those advocating a virgin birth need to bring. Whether or not Arnold's use of "the quran rejects" is a bad extrapolation or not, the fact remains that virgin birth IS an extrapolation, the absence of mention of a father is nothing that indicates Jesus didn't actually have one.
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There is a rare biological anomaly whereby there are to embryos or the previous stage in a pregnancy, but only one (a girl's) developa and the other embryo is embedded in the feminine organs of the girl, developing later when she is a grown up as it it was her own child. In fact it is a brother or a sister. This fenomenon has a name but I do not tremember it.
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There is a rare biological anomaly whereby there are to embryos or the previous stage in a pregnancy, but only one (a girl's) developa and the other embryo is embedded in the feminine organs of the girl, developing later when she is a grown up as it it was her own child. In fact it is a brother or a sister. This fenomenon has a name but I do not tremember it.
"Fetus in fetu" and it's not a very nice case. Jesus's birth was arguably a very "wanted" scenario, and this is far, far far from the case. And this condition doesn't produce anything but a vegetable twin.
In addition, if Mary had that condition she would have to be in medical care and would be far and away from normal. Not only that, the "pregnancy" would be visible for years, not a sudden onset as seen in the quran.
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There is a rare biological anomaly whereby there are to embryos or the previous stage in a pregnancy, but only one (a girl's) developa and the other embryo is embedded in the feminine organs of the girl, developing later when she is a grown up as it it was her own child. In fact it is a brother or a sister. This fenomenon has a name but I do not tremember it.
Salaam all,
I think you mean the fetus in fetus phenomenon, a sort of teratoma. The fetus inside never finishes its development and is already dead at delivery. It may remain undiagnosed years and years.More interesting is this verse about Mary's mother and Mary herself
"So when she delivered she said ?My Lord, I have delivered a female,? and God is fully aware of what she delivered, ?And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil.? (3; 37) [There is a comparative in the arabic text I would have translated it and God is more aware of what she delivered)How can God be more aware of the gender of the newborn than its mother ? Was there a doubt? In the eyes of Mary's mother, no, the baby was a female. In the divine plan, not exactly and God knows better what it was.
Paraphrasing huruf, there is a rare biological anomaly called mosaic in which, without much details, there coexist in the same body two (or more) types of cells, for example (may be in the case of Mary) cells XY and others XX. It is not scientifically impossible to have a genotypic hermaphrodism with a feminine phenotype. Ovaries and tests may have coexisted (a case was described in 1976, although highly pathological) and "something" caused an X cell from the ovaries and a Y cell from the testes to fuse immaculada conceptiou!
I'd like to finish with what one of the ancients said "there is no benefit from knowing it and there is no harm from ignoring it" ;D
Ang God knows best,
Salaam
sun
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That was just one instance of the possibility that it is was indeed a virgin birth without it being necessarily "unnatural". The fact that we may not know how it happened doesn't make it impossible to happen in a perfectly exlaniable way even if it is beyond our cpacity to come to know it.
Here is another possibility.
http//www.errantyears.com/1997/may97/0220.html
Salaam
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How do medical anomalies prove the existance of a healthy, miracle worker? Jesus, quranically is clearly a very able person and none of these people would have either the respect from being 'normal' or the mobility to do anything like he did.
When you bring a true virgin birth instead of seriously damaging anomalies, I'll eat my words.
The fact that we may not know how it happened doesn't make it impossible to happen in a perfectly exlaniable way even if it is beyond our cpacity to come to know it.
Evidence then conclusion. Not the other way round.
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Salaam decepticus, all
The case of hermaphrodism (2 DNA of different genders) or chimera (...of the same gender) carried by one human does not result in seperate entities in anyway.
Besides, we have a detailed description of Mary's labour. That was not an anomali.The phrase "and the male is not like the female" is "said" by God, as it is meaningless if said by her mother The construction (X is not like Y) implies that X is better than Y, or more intense according to the context, and this is the explanation of "God knows best" (I prefer the superlative). She wanted a male and He gave her a female because He knows this is better.
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The phrase "and the male is not like the female" is "said" by God, as it is meaningless if said by her mother The construction (X is not like Y) implies that X is better than Y, or more intense according to the context, and this is the explanation of "God knows best" (I prefer the superlative). She wanted a male and He gave her a female because He knows this is better.
Salaam,
OK, Samia, using the comparative or the superlative is not very important. But- there is no evidence that "and the male is not like the female" are God's words
- and yes, there is no evidence that "God knows best" are God's words could'nt we read and not ?
- nothing in the Qur'an tells us that the mother wanted a male
- what you propose does not explain the "need" for the affirmation that "God knows best" what she gave birth to.
As I said before,
BTW, I like very much reading your posts bravo
Peace
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How do medical anomalies prove the existance of a healthy, miracle worker? Jesus, quranically is clearly a very able person and none of these people would have either the respect from being 'normal' or the mobility to do anything like he did.
When you bring a true virgin birth instead of seriously damaging anomalies, I'll eat my words.
Evidence then conclusion. Not the other way round.
I thought it was plain in my post that I was not concluding nor affirming anything, just ezploring possibilities of how things can happen and fit the data. As to this particular question of how Isa's was a virgin birth or not, I really do not mind any way it was nor I am hung on miracles. I do not know whether some people need mircales. I don't. That is, what I find is that everything and anything is a miracle, being is a miracle. Beside that I don't know what can be more impressive.
I haven't understood what you want to say about anomalies not being fit for Isa. Well, I don't know why an anomaly would be fit for anybody, but they do ocurr, and I do not think that those in whom they occur are in any way lesser than others, although for them must add difficulty to living. I do not find it an argument as to the why they wouldn't be good enough for Mariams virginity when giving birth to Isa. Would Marim be less Mariam and Isa less Isa?
Salaam
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I haven't understood what you want to say about anomalies not being fit for Isa. Well, I don't know why an anomaly would be fit for anybody, but they do ocurr, and I do not think that those in whom they occur are in any way lesser than others, although for them must add difficulty to living. I do not find it an argument as to the why they wouldn't be good enough for Mariams virginity when giving birth to Isa. Would Marim be less Mariam and Isa less Isa?
It's generally very hard to be a prophet/ess when you can't walk, talk or indeed think.
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It's generally very hard to be a prophet/ess when you can't walk, talk or indeed think.
Really, I don't know what you are talking about now, whether the fetum in fetu, the parthenogenesis xx or the parthenogenesis xy or what. I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
So you know those phenomena I recalled and you think they are not enough to explain the virgin birth of Isa. Fine, and fine too, if you enjoy playing hide and seek with peoples lack of sufficient knowledge or accurate expression of what they intended to say (in this case me), and thank you for letting me have a guess at what you may have been really meaning. And if you think that further unmysterying of the phenomena is not required, fine also. I think by now I can get by with my ability to suspect what you might want to indicate, which is, I reckon, that all several possible ways of virgin birth pointed at in my messages result in monsters unable to move or talk or... anything else they are unable to? or may is it too early to disclose it?
Salaam
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Really, I don't know what you are talking about now, whether the fetum in fetu, the parthenogenesis xx or the parthenogenesis xy or what. I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
So you know those phenomena I recalled and you think they are not enough to explain the virgin birth of Isa. Fine, and fine too, if you enjoy playing hide and seek with peoples lack of sufficient knowledge or accurate expression of what they intended to say (in this case me), and thank you for letting me have a guess at what you may have been meaning really meaning. And if you think that further unmysterying of the phenomena is not required, fine also. I think by now I can get by with my ability to suspect what you might want to indicate, which is, I reckon, that all several possible ways of virgin birth pointed at in my messages result in monsters unable to move or talk or... anything else they are unable to? or may is it too early to disclose it?
Salaam
Well it has to be 'fetus in fetu' because I can't see how a single person both male and female is the same thing as a person capable of virgin birth. And the fetus in fetu is just a vegetable. Who's playing hide and seek here? There's only one real case of 'virgin birth' and that has to be fetus in fetu for the simple reasons I said here.
I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
I'm pretty sure you have heard of "Russel's teapot"? So when someone can bring proof of a virgin birth which is healthy and capable of being a prophet then we can change our view within the bounds of sanity. Anything else is just crackpottery.
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0925_020925_virginshark.html
http//www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=50123&in_page_id=34 (follow up)There's a shark doing it through parthenogenesis. And it became a fully functional, normal creature. In fact it's quite common in the animal world. But that hasn't happened for humans, nobody has demonstrated a single virgin birth yet.
What I don't understand is why this kind of thread exists, there are bigger problems than whether a man named Jesus 2000 years ago had a father or not, and it seems that this kind of thread should exist in an out of the ordinary situation (i.e. if someone did have a virgin birth) not in this kind of time where there is no priori (aside from Christian and derived belief without evidence) for thinking Jesus was anything but a normal man with a father.
