Virgin Birth of Isa
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I haven't understood what you want to say about anomalies not being fit for Isa. Well, I don't know why an anomaly would be fit for anybody, but they do ocurr, and I do not think that those in whom they occur are in any way lesser than others, although for them must add difficulty to living. I do not find it an argument as to the why they wouldn't be good enough for Mariams virginity when giving birth to Isa. Would Marim be less Mariam and Isa less Isa?
It's generally very hard to be a prophet/ess when you can't walk, talk or indeed think.
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It's generally very hard to be a prophet/ess when you can't walk, talk or indeed think.
Really, I don't know what you are talking about now, whether the fetum in fetu, the parthenogenesis xx or the parthenogenesis xy or what. I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
So you know those phenomena I recalled and you think they are not enough to explain the virgin birth of Isa. Fine, and fine too, if you enjoy playing hide and seek with peoples lack of sufficient knowledge or accurate expression of what they intended to say (in this case me), and thank you for letting me have a guess at what you may have been really meaning. And if you think that further unmysterying of the phenomena is not required, fine also. I think by now I can get by with my ability to suspect what you might want to indicate, which is, I reckon, that all several possible ways of virgin birth pointed at in my messages result in monsters unable to move or talk or... anything else they are unable to? or may is it too early to disclose it?
Salaam
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Really, I don't know what you are talking about now, whether the fetum in fetu, the parthenogenesis xx or the parthenogenesis xy or what. I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
So you know those phenomena I recalled and you think they are not enough to explain the virgin birth of Isa. Fine, and fine too, if you enjoy playing hide and seek with peoples lack of sufficient knowledge or accurate expression of what they intended to say (in this case me), and thank you for letting me have a guess at what you may have been meaning really meaning. And if you think that further unmysterying of the phenomena is not required, fine also. I think by now I can get by with my ability to suspect what you might want to indicate, which is, I reckon, that all several possible ways of virgin birth pointed at in my messages result in monsters unable to move or talk or... anything else they are unable to? or may is it too early to disclose it?
Salaam
Well it has to be 'fetus in fetu' because I can't see how a single person both male and female is the same thing as a person capable of virgin birth. And the fetus in fetu is just a vegetable. Who's playing hide and seek here? There's only one real case of 'virgin birth' and that has to be fetus in fetu for the simple reasons I said here.
I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
I'm pretty sure you have heard of "Russel's teapot"? So when someone can bring proof of a virgin birth which is healthy and capable of being a prophet then we can change our view within the bounds of sanity. Anything else is just crackpottery.
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0925_020925_virginshark.html
http//www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=50123&in_page_id=34 (follow up)There's a shark doing it through parthenogenesis. And it became a fully functional, normal creature. In fact it's quite common in the animal world. But that hasn't happened for humans, nobody has demonstrated a single virgin birth yet.
What I don't understand is why this kind of thread exists, there are bigger problems than whether a man named Jesus 2000 years ago had a father or not, and it seems that this kind of thread should exist in an out of the ordinary situation (i.e. if someone did have a virgin birth) not in this kind of time where there is no priori (aside from Christian and derived belief without evidence) for thinking Jesus was anything but a normal man with a father.
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What I don't understand is why this kind of thread exists, there are bigger problems than whether a man named Jesus 2000 years ago had a father or not, and it seems that this kind of thread should exist in an out of the ordinary situation (i.e. if someone did have a virgin birth) not in this kind of time where there is no priori (aside from Christian and derived belief without evidence) for thinking Jesus was anything but a normal man with a father.
Peace Br. OPF,
Not too elaborative a question but
1921 - He said "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained." (Free Minds)
How do you think that God made Jesus, Son of Mary a sign for mankind?
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Peace Br. OPF,
Not too elaborative a question but
1921 - He said "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained." (Free Minds)
How do you think that God made Jesus, Son of Mary a sign for mankind?
Do read further on in the surah. Jesus was an amazing person, simple as that based on what he did when he was alive and capable. On the other hand there is no logical way an unverifiable virgin birth could be a "sign for mankind" and if it is a "mercy from God" then that's too abstract to even notice.
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Do read further on in the surah. Jesus was an amazing person, simple as that based on what he did when he was alive and capable. On the other hand there is no logical way an unverifiable virgin birth could be a "sign for mankind" and if it is a "mercy from God" then that's too abstract to even notice.
Meh... nothing special that the other prophets didn't do. Any specific sign that you are talking about which made him "an amazing person"?
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Peace Sharp001,
2164 Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.
The qur'an is chock full of signs for mankind. What's so amazing about, ships, for instance? And who said something had to be amazing to be a sign? How does one quantify whether or not something is worthy of being a sign?
If you look closely enough, can you find some signs for mankind within the body of an ant?
peace
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Peace Sharp001,
2164 Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.
The qur'an is chock full of signs for mankind. What's so amazing about, ships, for instance? And who said something had to be amazing to be a sign? How does one quantify whether or not something is worthy of being a sign?
If you look closely enough, can you find some signs for mankind within the body of an ant?
peace
Peace to you as well, Tay
Ha... Very, very pertinent question. Honestly speaking, what sign do you see in any of them?
(1) Creation of heavens and earth? Big Whoop... So what, a Big Bang initiated the universe which has evolved and expanded over millions of years. The Earth, along with other planets were formed. It cooled down, and gave rise to conditions suitable for origin of life which has evolved over millions of year to what we see today. Very natural, real and logical...
(2) Night and Day? Rotation of the earth, what else...
(3) Ships sailing in the sea? Like you said, nothing extraordinary, just an observational phenomenon...
(4) Water from the sky bringing earth back to life? Over dramatic, just the water cycle doing its job...
(5) Creatures from the earth? Evolved through natural selection and random gene pool phenomenon...
(6) Movement of the winds? Due to air flowing from High Pressure to Low Pressure, natural phenomenon again...
(7) Clouds? Formed from condensation of humid air... nothing fancy about that as well...Signs for mankind, you say? Of what, may I ask? Existence of God? Objectively speaking, if one doesn't have the preconceived conclusion of God in mind, can you please tell me honestly whether you or any rational/logical/practical person will acknowledge them as anything other than phenomenon of natural processes? For that matter, what sign did you find within the body of an ant? Probably not more signs than what you find in a virus or bacteria under a microscope...
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In fact it's quite common in the animal world. But that hasn't happened for humans, nobody has demonstrated a single virgin birth yet.
It depends on how you understand the story of Isa, but were anyone then and there confronted with a "virgin pregnancy", they wouldn't have stood a chance of being believed and therefore would have looked for a father. And what was the case then and what is the case now and has been as far as we can guess is exactly the same. So we don't know, but if there was such a case or cases, those affected would take good care to make it pass as something else, because the price to pay for a thing like that is just too much. Why spend your life trying to state something nobody will ever believe and believe istead that you are having some kettle like the one you mention and on top of it that you are traying to cover for something, and all that for what? Indeed animals do not have that problem vis a vis humans.
Teh virgin birth may be a spiritual allegory and then its meaning is clear, or it may be, or may not be, as well as a spiritual allegory, a physical fact, but this is not as clear. There are people with six fingers and other anomalies and survive. Children with two heads, are born too, and, indeed, they do not survive. I am not going to afirm, and I haven't done that in this thread, that a certain thing exists, but I am not going to say that it doesn't, it hasn't and it never will, specially when there are many factors that if it did would contribute to its not being known ever or admitted.
Salaam
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You see Jesus' specialties in 5110 and 347+.
Peace to you as well, Tay
Ha... Very, very pertinent question. Honestly speaking, what sign do you see in any of them?
(1) Creation of heavens and earth? Big Whoop... So what, a Big Bang initiated the universe which has evolved and expanded over millions of years. The Earth, along with other planets were formed. It cooled down, and gave rise to conditions suitable for origin of life which has evolved over millions of year to what we see today. Very natural, real and logical...
(2) Night and Day? Rotation of the earth, what else...
(3) Ships sailing in the sea? Like you said, nothing extraordinary, just an observational phenomenon...
(4) Water from the sky bringing earth back to life? Over dramatic, just the water cycle doing its job...
(5) Creatures from the earth? Evolved through natural selection and random gene pool phenomenon...
(6) Movement of the winds? Due to air flowing from High Pressure to Low Pressure, natural phenomenon again...
(7) Clouds? Formed from condensation of humid air... nothing fancy about that as well...Signs for mankind, you say? Of what, may I ask? Existence of God? Objectively speaking, if one doesn't have the preconceived conclusion of God in mind, can you please tell me honestly whether you or any rational/logical/practical person will acknowledge them as anything other than phenomenon of natural processes? For that matter, what sign did you find within the body of an ant? Probably not more signs than what you find in a virus or bacteria under a microscope...
For the bold - that isn't true. The study of physics, mostly in the last century showed that our universe is very fine tuned and as luck would have had it, our locality is the perfect region for life (well, duh, it has to be). Now there are many attempts at a godless world view but they are junk science and unverifiable. Just look at the 'many worlds interpretation' of quantum mechanics, most of these border on crackpottery. One prominent physicist suggests that the big-bang is a remnant of an earlier universe which underwent a crunch, again a completely unverifiable scenario. Every such attempt to explain why our universe is tuned is generally bad science. For us, it should be a reassurance, considering nothing in the quran is out of line with what is found.
Again, on the bold text, some people who have been objective and also had contact with the quran have also converted. They are peppered across "Islam is true" sites all over. Here's a rather good one. So yes, you can be objective and end up believing in god and even the quran. Considering both of us, or me at least, are 100% laymen, how can you really just give a set of 10 points taken from the quran and dismiss them by giving the general theory behind them? Of course if you were looking for miracles you would be out of luck but the quran is talking about signs, not miracles.
(1) - Can you explain why the fine structure constant has the value it has? Do you know the sheer odds in play for our existence and continued survival? Everything around Earth is more or less tuned for human life, the sun's emission spectrum is concentrated in the visible light region. It's all anthropic reasoning here.
(2) - There is slightly more to it than that. We are at the perfect distance from the sun for human life and the elliptical orbit + off centre rotation brings in more effects like the seasons and so on, all pretty important for the life around us, and us included.
(3) - How about 5533?
(4) - Very quick dismissal again. Can you explain the whole dynamics behind the water cycle and can you explain exactly how it works and then go on to say it's not special? I'd like to see you try.
(5) - I'm not even going to bother...
(6) - Why aren't all our winds going at 300mph like on some of Jupiter's moons? ;D
(7) - See (4). And also, clouds are very detailed in the quran. See for instance this link. I don't think that Muhammad the goat herder or whatever could have had access to equipment allowing him to look up there very easily. -
Teh virgin birth may be a spiritual allegory and then its meaning is clear, or it may be, or may not be, as well as a spiritual allegory, a physical fact, but this is not as clear. There are people with six fingers and other anomalies and survive. Children with two heads, are born too, and, indeed, they do not survive. I am not going to afirm, and I haven't done that in this thread, that a certain thing exists, but I am not going to say that it doesn't, it hasn't and it never will, specially when there are many factors that if it did would contribute to its not being known ever or admitted.
Salaam
The virgin birth may also be a fraud perpetuated by "miracle" believers who use faith as their only backing and until there is evidence, I think that's what I'll go with. The quran does not support a virgin birth, and that is plain to see unless you wish to say that adam was also a single man and from a long line of incestuous relations did we come. Personally I prefer to believe in more realistic scenarios.
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I like the spiritual meaning of the allegory of virgin giving birth, it says plenty. For the rest I do not particularly care one way or the other. I do not find factual virginity a virtue or a lack of it. But if there is such thing in nature, of course, I have nothign against knowing it, and I keep that and many other possibilities in many other fields open, particularly since independently of the qur'an there are in history and traditions mentions of such things, which in turn may also be allegorical or not. There are other monstruosities and anomalies recorded in traditions. May again be allegories, may be buried events transmited as stories modified or not, but I keep the door open to learn more on their origin. For the rest, I suppose that each of us opts for what speaks more bountifully to his or her spirit. The virgin is an archetype, a very interesting one.
Would add, that also anomalies obey to God and are because of His command.
Salaam
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You see Jesus' specialties in 5110 and 347+.
Again, considering the metaphorical nature of the specialities, nothing special about him which would warrant him to be more of a sign than any other prophets and messengers.
For the bold - that isn't true. The study of physics, mostly in the last century showed that our universe is very fine tuned and as luck would have had it, our locality is the perfect region for life (well, duh, it has to be). Now there are many attempts at a godless world view but they are junk science and unverifiable. Just look at the 'many worlds interpretation' of quantum mechanics, most of these border on crackpottery. One prominent physicist suggests that the big-bang is a remnant of an earlier universe which underwent a crunch, again a completely unverifiable scenario. Every such attempt to explain why our universe is tuned is generally bad science. For us, it should be a reassurance, considering nothing in the quran is out of line with what is found.
Again, on the bold text, some people who have been objective and also had contact with the quran have also converted. They are peppered across "Islam is true" sites all over. Here's a rather good one. So yes, you can be objective and end up believing in god and even the quran. Considering both of us, or me at least, are 100% laymen, how can you really just give a set of 10 points taken from the quran and dismiss them by giving the general theory behind them? Of course if you were looking for miracles you would be out of luck but the quran is talking about signs, not miracles.
Fine tuning? Is that Intelligent Design theories that you are talking about? Let's listen to both sides of the story first before judging what is verifiable and what is not. All of the sites peppered across the internet about Islam is true... Most of those sites do not even support evolution, but you do not believe that aspect of those sites. Picking and choosing... Anyway, for the "supposed" fine tuning, me being a "laymen" as well, the following websites takes a critical look at what the "fine tuners" are proposing... Again these sites were already mentioned in the "Where did we come from" thread
http//www.talkdesign.org/cs/td_faq
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html(1) - Can you explain why the fine structure constant has the value it has? Do you know the sheer odds in play for our existence and continued survival? Everything around Earth is more or less tuned for human life, the sun's emission spectrum is concentrated in the visible light region. It's all anthropic reasoning here.
(2) - There is slightly more to it than that. We are at the perfect distance from the sun for human life and the elliptical orbit + off centre rotation brings in more effects like the seasons and so on, all pretty important for the life around us, and us included.
(3) - How about 5533?
(4) - Very quick dismissal again. Can you explain the whole dynamics behind the water cycle and can you explain exactly how it works and then go on to say it's not special? I'd like to see you try.
(5) - I'm not even going to bother...
(6) - Why aren't all our winds going at 300mph like on some of Jupiter's moons? ;D
(7) - See (4). And also, clouds are very detailed in the quran. See for instance this link. I don't think that Muhammad the goat herder or whatever could have had access to equipment allowing him to look up there very easily.(1) In your own words, why do you think that the universe revolves around life/humans? The odds that you are talking about, given the size of the universe and the sheer number of galaxies and mathematics, there is more than a high probability of other planets in other galaxies which will have life and life supporting conditions. Fine tuning just for earth? Please... it's just a matter of thinking whether the earth became suitable for us, or did nature take its course and made life (including us) suitable for the evolving earthly conditions.
(2) I thought that the verse was talking about Night and Day? So you don't think that there is a night or a day on other planets, irrespective of whether there is life there or otherwise?
(3) Yeah, what about it? It says that if you want to escape the earth or penetrate space, you'll need power to do so... how much power? Just enough to break free of earth's gravity... rocket power... so any sign here?
(4) I'm not too sure what the answer to that question will accomplish? Wiki it (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cycle) and tell me are any of the processes involved more special than any other natural processes on earth? Or are all processes special or miraculous? One man's logic is another man's miracle...
(5) Ditto... because it's something you already believe to be true...
(6) Why are you asking the questions in light of life? The phenomenon of wind is present whether in lifeless planets or otherwise. Can you chalk up the phenomenon of wind to anything other than nature and environmental factors?
(7) Just answer me this... 1736, right? If we are only able to verify the information of the Book just now, what did the people do, say 1200 years, from now? Could they have verified the information about the clouds? If they couldn't have, as you have implied, then what in the world possessed them to accept these the verses?
Just reminds of the story of the "Emperor's New Clothes"... The tailors told the King and the people that these special clothes can only be seen by those who are intelligent and so, people admitted to seeing and admiring the clothes, because they feared that they would be labeled as dumb, whereas they actually couldn't see the clothes.
The question really is what is the significance of a "Sign"? Does it augment the existence of the Lord (and his "Laws" or does it supplement what is in the Book? I believe that it is the latter. The effect that would have is that it would establish or strengthen the belief in the Truth of the Book, i.e. if it is right about this, then it must be right about everything it say, including the existence of God. That is all the proof one needs. If one believes it is the former, then, as you like to say, the burden of proof is on you to show how so.
So back to the topic at hand... Isa, Son of Mary... You know what really gets my goat? It's that basically there are only 2 plausible reasons why Isa's father isn't mentioned
(1) He was inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
(2) He wasn't there to begin with.Was he inconsequential? Would you call all the controversy surrounding his birth inconsequential? Was it so much to ask from the Lord to clarify this issue when the Book was revealed by just mentioning, even if only once, Mary and her spouse/partner? What was the gross lie/charge that the people brought against Mary? That she had had illicit relations outside of marital bonds and conceived thusly? How could a charge like that even hold with even a hint of a husband, unless and until, the people then, like now, did not believe that one could conceive a child without intercourse? Do you honestly believe that Mary, who was so devoted toward the Lord, prostrating and kneeling (343) and was so very careful to remain out of contact with men (347, 1917-1920) that she would distract herself from her devoutedness to her Lord somehow and find someone to marry and conceive?
The whole issue stems from the assertions that there is no change in the "Laws" of the Lord, i.e. the physical observable laws. If there is no change, then there couldn't have ever been a change in them, and so all the "miraculous" event are metaphorical. So now, what we have here is a yard-stick to judge the Book, i.e. Physical Observable Laws and Events. The expression of such laws in this day and age just represents our imperfect attempts at economical and useful descriptions of the observations we make with our senses and instruments. Every now and then, a phenomenon occurs which forces us to change those statement or add addendums to them, e.g. Laws governing the Macro Universe and the Micro Universe. To say that some event could not have happened because our current knowledge of laws and events does not support it is very very presumptuous as all knowledge is only with the Lord. It has kept increasing over a period of time and will keep on increasing. So, to close all the doors on believing something which we cannot verify using our current knowledge just categorises us in the same class as the people who thought that Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.
Peace
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The whole issue stems from the assertions that there is no change in the "Laws" of the Lord, i.e. the physical observable laws. If there is no change, then there couldn't have ever been a change in them, and so all the "miraculous" event are metaphorical.
Peace,
One of the biggest mistakes people make, is the assumptions that the stories can only be understood in 2 ways, literal miracles or metaphorical examples. It is really important people start to understand the Arabic used gives far wider terms then traditionaly understood or thought off as their mind used the Bible as their Furqan instead of the Quran itself or science. Many times the stories are not talking about miracles at all and can be understood literally when other meanings of the Arabic root of the words are used.
Please see this essay
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=3810f2b9ce373213207eec3e3713b409
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Peace,
One of the biggest mistakes people make, is the assumptions that the stories can only be understood in 2 ways, literal miracles or metaphorical examples. It is really important people start to understand the Arabic used gives far wider terms then traditionaly understood or thought off as their mind used the Bible as their Furqan instead of the Quran itself or science. Many times the stories are not talking about miracles at all and can be understood literally when other meanings of the Arabic root of the words are used.
Please see this essay
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=3810f2b9ce373213207eec3e3713b409
Br. Arnold,
Just an extract from one for first paragraphs of that article
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The idea that Islam must believe in a God that supports the supernatural is wrong. But in the last 1400 years the belief in the supernatural dominates Islam. How can this be? There are 2 factors involved which I?ll discuss. First of all, this is normal, as most people in those times were in a mythological phase of thinking. Their concept of power or divinity was connected by miracles and the supernatural as they themselves understood little of the creation. Because they didn't see the world and the whole universe as evidence enough for Allah's power, they demanded things that went beyond their direct doing...."How difficult is it to accept that, when such people of those times didn't have the requisite knowledge to see the world as evidence, God provided them the "miracles" to help them believe?
Peace
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Peace,
One of the biggest mistakes people make, is the assumptions that the stories can only be understood in 2 ways, literal miracles or metaphorical examples. It is really important people start to understand the Arabic used gives far wider terms then traditionaly understood or thought off as their mind used the Bible as their Furqan instead of the Quran itself or science. Many times the stories are not talking about miracles at all and can be understood literally when other meanings of the Arabic root of the words are used.
Please see this essay
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=3810f2b9ce373213207eec3e3713b409
peace Arnold (we haven't talked in a whiiile)
If we pick and choose which meaning to use, aren't we then just making the quran say what we want it to say?
If the quran really is so "flexible" then it is pointless because it is not saying anything at all. There is never an end to any argument regarding anything because there is always some sort of a question mark over it.
And what it comes down to in the end is observing the signs of the world around us and using reason to arrive at the truth, like Abraham did.
What people are doing is first making the quran the criteria for judging truthfulness, then coming to an understanding about an issue independently of the quran, and then using the quran to promote their understanding.
That is just wrong.
It wouldn't be if we just take the quran out of the equation.I think that due to the age of the quran (our language, culture, and knowledge has changed a lot over 1400 years), it has become impossible to determine what the quran really says, which means we have to let go of the quran and move on.
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Peace "lobster",
Well you are entitled to your view but that doesnt mean others will have to agree. IMO, bros Arnold, Edip, etc, understanding and deciphering the true Quranic Message would lead to THE EXPONENTIAL DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION BOTH SCIENTIFICALLY AND SOCIALLY. We need to establish a Quran Alone state to prove this though. Now we'll just have to wait and see. GOD Bless! -
peace Jonny,
Again you did not address the point of my post.
To refute my point, you would have to prove that an exact understanding of the quran is possible, and that Edip and Arnold are not bringing in any outside knowledge whatsoever in deciphering the quran's message (which is obviously not true).We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran. Then why do you keep clamoring for a quran alone state?
How is the quran alone state going to be better in any tangible way? -
Peace "lobster",
peace Jonny,
Again you did not address the point of my post.
To refute my point, you would have to prove that an exact understanding of the quran is possible, and that Edip and Arnold are not bringing in any outside knowledge whatsoever in deciphering the quran's message (which is obviously not true).JK- 1stly yes i believe it is possible to decipher the Quran and that before the end of the universe all of it would have been deciphered. Regarding outside sources ofcourse we can use unbiased dictionaries and archeological research to verify the Quranic statements which it even asks us to do. The outside sources though need to be unbiased and must be acquired THROUGH INDEPENDENT RESEARCH. That is the key to understanding the Quran correctly and thats what i beleive bros edip, arnold and the likes are doing.
We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran. Then why do you keep clamoring for a quran alone state?
How is the quran alone state going to be better in any tangible way?JK- Yes but it is developing very slowly and i beleive that if we have a chance for exponetial deveopment it would be stupid to go for the slow or linear one. GOD Bless!
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peace
You think that "before the end of the universe" is not slow?
And if you can reach the truth independently of the quran, what's the quran's role then?
This is exactly what I was talking about. Making the quran an idol which must be obeyed, then coming up with your understanding independently, and then using that idol to promote your understanding. It has "wrong" written all over it with bold capital letters.The fact is that people are better off directing this effort somewhere else because trying to understand the quran isn't getting them anywhere, and if we agree with you about the nature of the quran, then even with all their efforts doubled they will not get anywhere because the human race hasn't evolved enough yet.
Like Abraham, we must study the signs in nature, in the world around us, and let experience be our teacher.