Greetings
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Salam, bro, that's where the benefit of the doubt comes in.
I give benefit of the doubt when it is due. As I said, you are not an unintelligent person, and, from the specific precision of your posts, I do not think that you would use the general meaning 'you' for 'someone', but would write 'someone' instead. I take your use of the word 'you' (in those specific sentances) to refer to me, and your comments protesting innocence, come across as backpeddling because I stood up to the inferences.
Ask yourself, does it make sense to you that someone who says they aren't in a position to know whether you fasted correctly or not even with all the information you gave, will then strike up trivial details about your life and predict your future for you?
Internet trolling rarely makes sense, but it still occurs.
Keep in mind as well, that the posts are getting pretty long and I'm preoccupied with a few other personal things at the moment, so I can't just go over them again.
If you cannot give the posts your full attention, brother, then feel free to ignore them until you can consider your response fully. I have not been sitting at my computer all afternoon. Infact, I left the house twice, fed the animals, cooked dinner, ate dinner, and still found the time to give your posts my full attention when I responded to them.
The issue is that using a simple technicality is not a good idea. It's in the greyest part of the grey line and we should err on the side of caution.
Why should we err on the side of caution? Free will means precicely that. Freedom of choice, and acceptance for decisions resulting from it. I read a newspaper article about a girl who went to Amsterdam for a friend's birthday party, got incredibly drunk, and woke up the next morning to find that she had a smiley face, and a sad face, tattooed on either breast. She is now trying to campaign to have a 24 'cooling off period' instated for tattoo studios. rotfl rotfl rotfl Most tattoo studios require bookings (so considerably more than 24 hours), and anyone who would tattoo an intoxicated person, has no business being a tattoo artist, so in all honesty, this unfortunate (like many of her generation) is simply trying to blame someone else for her poor choices, and refusing to accept the responsibility for her own actions and choices.
As for the hard copies - they have not been preserved perfectly, the addition of vocalisation marks is an example - the earliest texts don't have them. The simple reason being, that it was a spoken language in the language of the messenger's own community, and it's in the name 'quran' itself, a recital.
I see the point you are making, but, it does not really apply. Addition of vocalisation marks does not change the word which has been written, it just tells someone how to pronounce the words (if they were not to know) That is not the same as mistranslating sections of text, or substituting one word for a similar one.
As for "Islam is submission to Allah" - "Islam" is a sect/religion just like Christianity and Judaism, it's like we have religious corporations or something competing for market domination - at least, to the average person. You might see that "islam is just submission to Allah" but the average person is reminded of Sunni-ism, and just violence, I would think. The problem is that people base it on faith instead of reason so "Islam" becomes another fairy tale. In the quran, it's a different story but again, you can't take your study which is no doubt a lot further than most people into islam and then say everyone knows all the misconceptions and other things.
Their misconceptions are not my fault, or my concern. If they choose to educate themself about Islam, they would soon discover the truth about it, rather than the media demonization of it.
Now, to relate back - if you followed "Quran only Islam" and said "my belief is between me and Allah alone" - that helps absolutely nothing. Your inner belief is 100% between you and god alone but how you act and speak, that is under everyone else. Islam, defined in the quran, is not just a personal religion - it's a deen/code of life, as many a Sunni loves to say. And peer review or scrutiny is no different with regards to this than how your actions would be judged by others if you were atheist. And again, I don't want to get cheesy but by claiming "Quran only Islam", you assign a label to yourself and others assign a label to your actions so when they see you drink, that gives an impression. The whole point is, you need organisation. A common Sunni joke about quranists is "The quranists gather for their first congregational salat. One quranist prays towards Makkah, another towards Jerusalem. Another is praying in any direction while another still is sitting down and meditating. The last of them sits in the corner reading his quran and claiming the others are following silly beliefs". The sad thing is, that joke is quite true. A result, of everyone interpreting the quran according to their desires and having the erroneous belief that a single person is all it takes to 100% understand the quran.
And one which is clearly stated in Al Qur'an. A practical instance of the differences, are the various practices for making wudu in the various branches of Islam. What does it matter if the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, not only washed his hands/arms to the elbows, but also washed his elbows? What does it matter what order the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, chose to make wudu? It does not matter at all (other than to raging hadithists) The order for making wudu is clearly specified in Al Qur'an, and that is all a Muslim need follow.
Messenger's people aside, the most successful people in the history of Islam were those in the "Golden Age". Do you think a group of quranists today following your idealogy of "I follow Quran only Islam and my beliefs are between me and God alone" could honestly stand a chance of recreating that utopia? Muslims haven't produced an Ibn Al-Haytham for a millenium now and with idealogies like that and "Follow the ulema, they know best" around, we are royally screwed.
You are distorting the intention of my reply. If someone is to ask about a practice out of genuine interest in Islam, then I would answer them to help educate them. When I am asked such a question, in the middle of an utterly un-related discussion, it appears to be nothing more than an attempt to belittle and condescend.
Yes, in an ideal world that would be the case. Guess where we live -\
There are many things in the world which would need to occur before it is 'ideal', but the chances of that happening, are not very good.
Yes, the most important thing however is to not be hard-hearted and be open to change. As it says in the quran, god will never change you if you do not open yourself to change (1311), and considering that good comes from god alone (by definition), can you honestly say you can do without following that verse? You might have a "my way or the highway" thinking now (note not saying you as literally you) but if you're open to change then surely you will improve.
Indeed, and I am open to change. I would not have experienced ihsan, and converted to Islam, if I was not. I am not saying "my way or the highway." Al Qur'an is not my way. It is Allah's way. It is Allah's way or the highway. I follow Allah's way. Of course, others need to be equally open in order for Allah to speak to them.
As for the bold, consider that you indirectly just did in the previous paragraph. Pointing out faults with alcohol - can you honestly blame me for doing that when the book I believe to come from God repeatedly does so and for a good reason?
Yes, because, Al Qur'an does not specifically forbid alcohol. You yourself pointed out that the passage about coming to prayer intoxicated would be redundant if Muslims could not drink alcohol at all. You cannot argue that the text permits alcohol, but then start pointing out the negatives in a critical manner, for any reason other than the desire to be argumentative, or to change someone's opinion (to not consume alcohol).
Warnings are warnings. Forbidden is forbidden. If something is forbidden, then I do not do it. If it is only warned against, then I use my free will to make my own decision, and then live by the consequences of it.
For the underlined section - I don't know why you've kept this assumption through the last page or 2, considering I've already said that's not the case.
Stop trying to twist my words, brother. I am not trying to insist that you are in a position to say what is satisfactory. I said, and will say again, that you are acting in a way (intentionally or otherwise) which suggests that you feel that you require satisfaction in your answers, otherwise, there would be no point in debating an issue back and forth. If you agree with me, you agree with me. If you do not, then you do not. The explanations I have given about my fast, were not intended to satisfy/convince you of anything in terms of altering your opinion, they were merely intended as explanations so you would understand the issues involved.
Peace
giveup -
Peace Farida
I think you make a good point with verses 53/38-41 that one is responsible for the decisions they make and the actions they take. Quran-Alone would do well to take note that people will have opinions that are right and some that are wrong and that s/he and anyone else cannot guide the people.
Joe
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Indeed, there are now many Muslims in London. I do not travel to it as often as I used to, but it is a city I enjoy being in. Likewise, it is a pleasure to meet you, sister. I have not read any of the author's works, but I have always been interested in spiritual and mystic topics, so a book on Sufi would indeed be something that would interest me, thankyou for recommending it.
May peace be upon you, sister.
Salaam
Kahlil Gibran my favourite especially The Prophet
peace -
Salaam
Kahlil Gibran my favourite especially The Prophet
peaceSalaam, sister Farida,
Thank you for the recommendation )Peace
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I give benefit of the doubt when it is due. As I said, you are not an unintelligent person, and, from the specific precision of your posts, I do not think that you would use the general meaning 'you' for 'someone', but would write 'someone' instead. I take your use of the word 'you' (in those specific sentances) to refer to me, and your comments protesting innocence, come across as backpeddling because I stood up to the inferences.
Internet trolling rarely makes sense, but it still occurs.
If you cannot give the posts your full attention, brother, then feel free to ignore them until you can consider your response fully. I have not been sitting at my computer all afternoon. Infact, I left the house twice, fed the animals, cooked dinner, ate dinner, and still found the time to give your posts my full attention when I responded to them.Fair enough, but I didn't really read over my previous post, as I said. As for backpedalling, I have no idea why people take an issue with that, we aren't here to "win" arguments and backpeddling without an 'edit' button is not possible, and accusations like that might hinder people clarifying themselves. Anyway, I'm not in a position to leave the screen without finishing certain things so my eyes have glazed over hypno. Can't help but multitask.
Why should we err on the side of caution? Free will means precicely that. Freedom of choice, and acceptance for decisions resulting from it. I read a newspaper article about a girl who went to Amsterdam for a friend's birthday party, got incredibly drunk, and woke up the next morning to find that she had a smiley face, and a sad face, tattooed on either breast. She is now trying to campaign to have a 24 'cooling off period' instated for tattoo studios. Most tattoo studios require bookings (so considerably more than 24 hours), and anyone who would tattoo an intoxicated person, has no business being a tattoo artist, so in all honesty, this unfortunate (like many of her generation) is simply trying to blame someone else for her poor choices, and refusing to accept the responsibility for her own actions and choices.
Why? Because the quran which you presumably believe to be the word of god, tells us so (3918 onwards). As for the woman, I'd say she deserves it somewhat, lone drunk women out in the streets don't always have their bad luck restricted to a tattoo or two.
I see the point you are making, but, it does not really apply. Addition of vocalisation marks does not change the word which has been written, it just tells someone how to pronounce the words (if they were not to know) That is not the same as mistranslating sections of text, or substituting one word for a similar one.
How intact do you think the present quranic message is? Put it another way, by not adding or taking away information, but simply by distorting it, you can make it seem very very different and look unpreserved. You can write a simple mathematical formula in a very complex way, and not many people will know. The raw information hasn't changed at all but you've added your own little things. As for subsituting words - the earliest qurans don't even have the markings demarcating certain consonants from others. That can be distorted, to fit someone's will. Again, the raw information hasn't changed but the method it's presented, has. That's not the point in any case, the point is that following what you want, and labelling it "Quran only Islam" isn't any different than calling yourselves the ulema and defining "True Islam?" how you wish. And a lot of theology, sorry to say, tends to be "scholars" making up vague or trashy conjectures about something then applying it to the quran without evidence. Islam, is in a mess.
Their misconceptions are not my fault, or my concern. If they choose to educate themself about Islam, they would soon discover the truth about it, rather than the media demonization of it.
Sorry to say but the quran disagrees with you (see , , ). Your shared burden, not theirs alone. And also see .
And one which is clearly stated in Al Qur'an. A practical instance of the differences, are the various practices for making wudu in the various branches of Islam. What does it matter if the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, not only washed his hands/arms to the elbows, but also washed his elbows? What does it matter what order the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, chose to make wudu? It does not matter at all (other than to raging hadithists) The order for making wudu is clearly specified in Al Qur'an, and that is all a Muslim need follow.
I didn't mean wudu but nice example, of course the quran is flexible in that way. Where it is not flexible, however, is where a concept is made very clear; that a state of drunkenness is purely satanic and the temptations to drink, gamble, etc, are from satan. And you are right, you have a clear choice here, the free will to follow EITHER satan OR follow god.
You are distorting the intention of my reply. If someone is to ask about a practice out of genuine interest in Islam, then I would answer them to help educate them. When I am asked such a question, in the middle of an utterly un-related discussion, it appears to be nothing more than an attempt to belittle and condescend.
And do remember that communication is a constant process, and striking up a conversation is not ALL that constitutes communication. And research has shown, time and time again, that body language plays a large part, and common sense says your simple/trivial actions (i.e. something derived from your personal interpretation of the quran) do have an effect. Think of talking to people as directly connecting a cable to them and think of you as being a wireless antenna and islam as your internet provider, if you give out a crappy signal, what are people going to think? ;D
There are many things in the world which would need to occur before it is 'ideal', but the chances of that happening, are not very good.
Too many people in the world for it to be anything other than a pipe dream anyway.
Indeed, and I am open to change. I would not have experienced ihsan, and converted to Islam, if I was not. I am not saying "my way or the highway." Al Qur'an is not my way. It is Allah's way. It is Allah's way or the highway. I follow Allah's way. Of course, others need to be equally open in order for Allah to speak to them.
I agree 100%.
Yes, because, Al Qur'an does not specifically forbid alcohol. You yourself pointed out that the passage about coming to prayer intoxicated would be redundant if Muslims could not drink alcohol at all. You cannot argue that the text permits alcohol, but then start pointing out the negatives in a critical manner, for any reason other than the desire to be argumentative, or to change someone's opinion (to not consume alcohol).
The text permits alcohol AND points out the negatives in a critical manner. Is the quran doing this to be argumentative? Find the answer in .
Warnings are warnings. Forbidden is forbidden. If something is forbidden, then I do not do it. If it is only warned against, then I use my free will to make my own decision, and then live by the consequences of it.
Just remember that a small cold is nothing but the Spanish flu...
Stop trying to twist my words, brother. I am not trying to insist that you are in a position to say what is satisfactory. I said, and will say again, that you are acting in a way (intentionally or otherwise) which suggests that you feel that you require satisfaction in your answers, otherwise, there would be no point in debating an issue back and forth. If you agree with me, you agree with me. If you do not, then you do not. The explanations I have given about my fast, were not intended to satisfy/convince you of anything in terms of altering your opinion, they were merely intended as explanations so you would understand the issues involved.
That isn't my point either. In any case, I think we can just stop going on about that, it's leading nowhere confused
Peace
giveupWell, you did drag me into here
Have a good day...
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Well, you did drag me into here P
Peace, brother.
I did no such thing. You chose to respond to my post of your own free will. The discussion which has occured, is a result of your choice to respond, not because I 'dragged you in'.
With regards the point about making wudu. Al Qur'an is not flexible about that. At all. It clearly states the way a Muslim must bathe before making prayer. That is not something open to interperetation, or doing in a different order, the order is given, so must be obeyed in the order it is given. That was the point I was making, when something is stated, it is stated precicely
As I said, giveup I am not prepared to discuss these issues further, I only replied to the point about wudu as it was the least 'controversial' topic, and the one which your reply seemed rather 'liberal' in interperetation, of something clearly defined.
Peace
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Peace Brother,
First off welcome Raseem
From what i see, Raseem is pretty clear with his belief. Also, no need to push him with other beliefs, it's his will and the guide that had been shed to him. We are no veteran here though, still new in exploring God's straight path.... So hopefully no negative disputes among us...
Peace. handshake
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Salam Everyone...
Since drinking alcohol was in the discussion...just wanna ask if the interpretation of the following ayat which talked about 'wine' does not contain alcohol ?
.And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
.Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?
Piece!
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Salam Everyone...
Since drinking alcohol was in the discussion...just wanna ask if the interpretation of the following ayat which talked about 'wine' does not contain alcohol ?
.And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
.Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?
Piece!
And surely I fear my cousins after me, and my wife is barren, therefore grant me from Thyself an heir,
What was she diagnosed with that made her barren?
Piece.