For those who think polygany is right...
-
salaam,
For those of you who believe polygany is right to do... what are your views on the rules of that?
Can the husband take any wife he wants regardless of whether or not the current wife/wives agree? What about hiding it from the current wife completely? Do you think it's humanly possible to treat them equally? It is next to impossible to treat ones children equally... since kids need different things according to their growth and development... i.e. parents can believe child # 1 at age 14 should have a cell phone because they are responsible and really need one, then when child # 2 turns 14 the same parents don't think they are ready for such a responsibility, but child # 2 feels he/she is not being treated fairly.
Women have different personalities, needs, feelings, ideas, etc. Unless 2 women are exactly alike... how can they be treated equally? How would any man know what was equal in the eyes of the women? This seems irrational and that is why I believe God enforced the law about equality.
This is a curiosity to me because I have read posts on here of people supporting the polygany idea, but I have not read (unless I mistakenly missed it) what rules you feel should be followed while practicing it.
And, in case any of you are wondering about me... I am my husband's only wife.
peace,
dotty -
I think that most people who uphold poliginy do so only as an exceptional thing subject to circumstances that make it a lesser evil for society. For me it is an open question, but I have a couple of remarks on certain things sorrounding it
Some people who are against it express or consider implicit the view that it is diminishing for a woman. I find that alarming in the sense that the value of a woman or of any person is not dependent on anybody else but herself. The fact that she is married, unmarried, widow, only wife of a husband or fourth of 20th wife of a husband doesn't add or detract from her value or standing, or at least it shouldn't. While trying to uphold the dignity of the woman in fact this kind of outlook diminishes her in the sense that makes the value of womankind depedent on how she is with respect to a man, exactly the same that hapens when you look down on spinsters or the woman who doesn't have a man. This happens widely, it is very ugly and it seems to be reproduced when applied to poligyny.
The other remark is that in fact for many new muslims it seems that having multiple wives is like a new toy, they feel ever so special... The social usefulness such institution could have is lost in that egotrip.
Could polyginy eventually do away with illegitimate arrangements which gurantee nothing to the woman or would it come as an addition to those illegitimate arrangements and in fact arrange nothing? I really don't know.
There is no provision for inheritance in the Qur'an for more than one surviving wife. What then?
Regarding the rules for polyginy in todays world, I think the agreement of the present wife or wives should be a must. As also clear detailed contracts should also be a must. No extra wife marriage should be valid without such an exhaustive contract, duly drafted signed and witnessed. Also, in view of above, the husband should draw up a will in compliance with any contract, regarding his succession.
Salaam
-
salaam,
For those of you who believe polygany is right to do... what are your views on the rules of that?
Can the husband take any wife he wants regardless of whether or not the current wife/wives agree? What about hiding it from the current wife completely? Do you think it's humanly possible to treat them equally?
And, in case any of you are wondering about me... I am my husband's only wife.peace,
dottySalaam dotty,
4129 Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so). But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
BTW I am the only wife of my only husband and the concept of sharing him with another woman is not acceptable to me personally. But that does not mean that polygyny is not allowed in Qur?an. There is a wisdom in allowing polygyny and those who see is as a license to take wife after wife are not penetrating the ramifications of this momentous responsibility.Salaam huruf,
There is no provision for inheritance in the Qur'an for more than one surviving wife. What then?
There is no mention of grand children in the inheritance, but obviously that does not imply that one is not allowed to leave something to the grandchild in the will. Also if more than one wife was mentioned in the will it could be seen as the norm. More than on wife to my understandings should only be taken in a case of absolute necessity and to avoid breaking up a family where the first wife does not want a divorce.
Best regards
farida -
More than on wife to my understandings should only be taken in a case of absolute necessity and to avoid breaking up a family where the first wife does not want a divorce.
Best regards
faridaSalaam Farida
What examples are of this absolute necessity that happens to a man but not to a woman? Is the wife responsible for it?
In the famous verse of nushuz, no solution other than separation and perhaps divorce was given. Again, in the verse where the husband accuses his wife of adultry, seperation/divorce is the ultimate result.
How does divorce break up the family, but polygamy doesn't? What's the concept of "family"? Is it people living under one roof, hating the guts of each other, or people loving each other even if they are miles away?Some people who are against it express or consider implicit the view that it is diminishing for a woman. I find that alarming in the sense that the value of a woman or of any person is not dependent on anybody else but herself.
Salaam huruf
I am against polygamy that is not based on the condition set for it in the quraan. I do not know which of the two women in a polygamy is the one being diminished. A woman who sees a married man available does diminish herself. A married man who looks around for another wife for reasons other than stated in the quraan diminishes himself. Children are the victim of adults acting irresponsibly. -
Salaam Farida
In the famous verse of nushuz, no solution other than separation and perhaps divorce was given. Again, in the verse where the husband accuses his wife of adultry, seperation/divorce is the ultimate result.
but polygamy doesn't? What's the concept of "family"? Is it people living under one roof, hating the guts of each other, or people loving each other even if they are miles away?Salaam huruf
I am against polygamy that is not based on the condition set for it in the quraan. I do not know which of the two women in a polygamy is the one being diminished. A woman who sees a married man available does diminish herself. A married man who looks around for another wife for reasons other than stated in the quraan diminishes himself. Children are the victim of adults acting irresponsibly.Salaam
Alhumdullilah today we are living in an age where women are able to go out and earn a living they are nolonger dependant, but this was not the case in previous centuries and as you know the Qur'an is for all ages not only for this century
What examples are of this absolute necessity that happens to a man but not to a woman? Is the wife responsible for it?
Not many families have impressed me like the one I personally know where the first wife could not have children and both loved each other; she wanted her husband to have his children and in return the husband decided to give care of his first born from his second wife to his first wife. I was always facinated with that family even though both wives refused to stay in the same room whenever there was a gathering, but the first child of the family had two mothers and he respected and loved them both.
And I know of similar situations now, but very few, as it takes a lot to share one's husband.
Also there are those where husbands live in two diferent cities etc. ; what ever you say girlfriends or mistresses are not rare, but a second wife is, even if it's allowed.How does divorce break up the family,
Like it or not divorces break familes up, even though, in some case living in a marriage is more miserable and I have heard the term happily divorced woman used. Anyway divorce is allowed and I am not against divorce.
God forbid if there is a situation like in Iraq here and we have lots of women in need of shelter that will pose the real test.Best regards
farida -
I am against polygamy that is not based on the condition set for it in the quraan.
I agree with you samia.
43 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, then only one, or that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
From what I can figure out this verse is talking about the restrictions of polygamy.
What really confuses me is the parts I bolded
- if you fear you are not able to deal justly marry two, three, or four wives.
- and then, if you fear you are not able to deal justly, then only one wife.
So... if a man fears he is not able to deal justly he should marry 2, 3, or 4, AND if a man fears he in not able to deal justly he should marry only 1? Now can it be both? I am so confused.
peace,
dotty -
So... if a man fears he is not able to deal justly he should marry 2, 3, or 4, AND if a man fears he in not able to deal justly he should marry only 1? Now can it be both? I am so confused.
peace,
dottyIf you fear you cant be just to anyone then why bother taking orphans? Mesa think if yousa wanna take an orphan yousa should be sure that yousa can take care of him well.
-
Salaam
Alhumdullilah today we are living in an age where women are able to go out and earn a living they are nolonger dependant, but this was not the case in previous centuries and as you know the Qur'an is for all ages not only for this century
Salaam Farida
So, the plight of women in Iraq should not bother you since they can work and support themsleves. I am not being cruel, but men are also suffering with no jobs and danger to go out to work, if there is any work. Shall we marry them in twos, three and fours? I think huruf's thread along this concept is quite significant.
she wanted her husband to have his children
Again, what if it was him who was sterile? Would he want her to have "her children"? Which is stronger motherhood or fatherhood?
And by what right does he take the FIRST child of the second wife and gives it to the first wife? This is an example of two women who like to be under the thumb of a controlling man. Yes, they will be happy, of course, just like the happiness of a saddist married to two mascocists. -
Marriage is a very personal and private thing and how each one works or doesn't is individual and unique to each one. What works for one doesn't always work for another.
Essentially, there should be a sense of deep community, where everyone works to take care of each other. And additional wives would be, in terms of the Qu'ran widows or orphans who needed the Marital status in order to ensure that they would be taken care of. Right? This was a big part of why women inherit less than men. Because the men of the family are supposed to take care of the widow. when they don't, which is iften the case, was often the case and will often be the case, well, we have to trust God to deal with that. Am I reading this right?
Now in modern application. We live in a country where a man will cheat on his wife. Over the course of an affair, he can abandon this woman at any time, and can simply go to another. And again, certainly he'll after to answer for it later..but what about the women and children he leaves in his wake? At the very nasty ugly least, a society that accepts polygyny forces men to take responsibility for their sexual misconduct and marry their mistresses and take care of their children. And that's the Ugly version. There could be the pleasant version, making up for infertility (Though what happens when it's HIS fault? not like she gets a second husband who's shoting hot loads instead of blanks.) And then there's the Ideal Qu'ranic version, taking in a widow or divorcee' or orphan of the family who needs the security and stability.
I think very much that what happens in a marriage is unique though and there is no real universal yardstick. While I hope, with all my heart to be the only wife, I hope even more that should he wish to change that situation, he talks to me first. And more importantly, I hope that if he changes that situation, it is for the right reasons, not to simply skirt having an affair.
-
What are some examples of circumstances that make it a lessor evil for society?
In general terms I think that humanity has a very wide, unlimited, capacity of adaptation and of ssuming the most different was and make them function to a extent. We see it with food for instance. You get people that say that one should eat a balanced diet, with the piramid of foods and all that, but we see that there are people who eat meat in dreadful amounts, like argentina, or fish and they thrive. The same with climates. People in fact are capable of beeing happy under the most weird arrangements, so I would hate to say this is what may make something a lesser evil. I think it depends on each society, each context. The same thing may be nothing at a certain moment for a society and be impossible for another.
So I say this and it is a mere possibility to put the thing in some envisageable scene. Take Germany after the thirty years war, I think it was, but I can't swear it. Poligamy was legalised, there were so few men, that it seemed, in effect as the lesser evil. What is few men? I don't know how many there were they. I supose something similar happened in Paraguay, after the war against the triple Alliance, when the population was literally decimated and of that left only 10 percent were males, mostly children, and old men. For a certain period, till the population reached a new balance, polygamy was universal. I can't say that it was wrong. What else? It was a very cruel and a most trying circumstance. Those people were very brave that resurrected a country out of the ashes.
It is every society who must determine what it can bear and what it can't, or which evil is leer for it, or the inflection point where the bearable becomes unbearable.
Salaam
-
I think polygamy is okay so long as there is clear divorce laws protecting the women whenever they want to get out of their polygamous relationship.
This seems like a fair method for women, if everything is laid on the table beforehand, but women must always consider there can be children produced from these marriages. It's not all about the wife. If they change their minds later it's going to affect the children too.
peace,
dotty -
I think very much that what happens in a marriage is unique though and there is no real universal yardstick. While I hope, with all my heart to be the only wife, I hope even more that should he wish to change that situation, he talks to me first. And more importantly, I hope that if he changes that situation, it is for the right reasons, not to simply skirt having an affair.
I spoke with a gentleman once and he told me this
"The only way he would ever consider taking a second wife is if his brother died and left his sister-in-law a widow. He would then consider marrying his sister-in-law (after permission from his first wife) in order to give her security."
This seems honorable on the surface, but if he really wanted to care for his sister-in-law + kids, then he can do that without marrying her. Unless of course, there is sex involved... then he would have to marry her to be lawful. Would the first wife agree to the 2nd wife as long as he never touched her? Would the 2nd wife agree as well? What if they all agreed and someone changed their mind later?
peace,
dotty -
It is every society who must determine what it can bear and what it can't, or which evil is leer for it, or the inflection point where the bearable becomes unbearable.
Nice idea, but I think we could apply the word person rather than society. Even in each society there are different views on things.
peace,
dotty -
Salaam Farida
? ?
Salaam Samia,
So, the plight of women in Iraq should not bother you since they can work and support themsleves. I am not being cruel, but men are also suffering with no jobs and danger to go out to work, if there is any work. Shall we marry them in twos, three and fours
There is more to polygyny than getting a breadwinner and I see no reason to discuss this further, as we obviously see this differently. Unlike many debaters on this forum, who stick to their guns and never learn from any input, no matter how convincing, I am willing to change my view, if you could convince me that the monogamous society has erased the phenomenon of mistresses/girlfriends.
The hypocrisy of monogamy is illustrated everywhere. I would be willing to discuss this with you at length if you can show me that monogamy guarantees a woman?s due rights. Since you did not engage in my thread ?support the mistress....? I suggest you check that thread for my views.I think huruf's thread along this concept is quite significant.
By all meansAnd by what right does he take the FIRST child of the second wife and gives it to the first wife?
If I were to tell them today that there is sister Samia who ask?s ?what right does he take the FIRST child of the second wife and gives it to the first wife?? I am sure you would not be pleased with their response? I only gave you a true example as you asked for it in your last post and if that looks unfair to you then that?s your problem.
To me that family was a great example of generosity and sharing everything but not everyone can understand what that means.The arrangement in that family may have looked unfair to many but after the death of the husband both wives stayed together and the first son never complained about this arrangement; only outsiders seem to make it an issue.This is an example of two women who like to be under the thumb of a controlling man. Yes, they will be happy, of course, just like the happiness of a saddist married to two mascocists.
If the first son of that family was to read these remarks I am sure he would oppose you, as he considered himself lucky to have received the love of two mums and would shut everyone up whose views were similar to yours.Again, what if it was him who was sterile? Would he want her to have "her children"? Which is stronger motherhood or fatherhood And by what right does he take the FIRST child of the second wife and gives it to the first wife??
I too raised such objections, but only as a teenager and now that I have learned more about life and how complicated it is, I do not ask such immature questions anymore, since I am no longer na?ve. I know of women who have had a child in a marriage where her rich husband was known to be sterile and I also know many feminists, who sleep around with married men and then go about shouting that polygyny is unacceptable.
I also know of wives who clearly know that their husbands sleep around with other women, but would never accept polygyny. I also know women who are barren and could not accept polygyny at all so they left the husband and went on with life. This is the beauty of Islam; there is no compulsion and divorce is an option, however I do not judge other peoples decisions, nor do I impose a fit all solution to various problems. Each case is unique and every individual has a different perception of life.I still have lot to learn and I am open to new challanges
peace
farida -
I also know many feminists, who sleep around with married men and then go about shouting that polygyny is unacceptable.
I also know of wives who clearly know that their husbands sleep around with other women, but would never accept polygyny. I also know women who are barren and could not accept polygyny at all so they left the husband and went on with life. This is the beauty of Islam; there is no compulsion and divorce is an optionVery true, which is why I started this thread. For those who believe it is right, or maybe I should have said "for those who believe it is a good thing", then what rules do they feel apply to it? I know people have different views and ideas. I live and work in a community of non-muslims and I find people are quite curious about Islam. Maybe I can have a better understanding and show some intelligence when this topic confronts me in the future.
peace,
dotty -
Polygamy is harmless and can even be beneficial in certain situation so long as as I said there is clear divorce law that protect the women. However, this is not the case in some countries where polygamy is legal. Over there divorce appeal is not so easy for the women.
-
Marriage is a social question. What we are talking about is not that you marry a person in a desert island but that what you do is recognized or not by the whole society an respected or. For all we know, right now, if you want to have two or three wives de facto, nobody will hamper you, but you should see yourself to the kind od arrangements you make that they don't run counter to the law or that they are at all practicable, because of the law or because of the environment. I am all for personal freedom and responsibility, but there are things that are conditioned or imposed by the society in which one lives and the person adjusts or is made to adjust, sometimes gently by the force of things, at times with pressure. At any rate, marriage is ruled by laws and each person cannot have a law for herself or himself. Depending on the understanding of a society, laws may be approved that give more or less scope to individual autonomy, but again, depends on the society.
Hope i have written understandably
Salaam
-
Marriage is a social question. What we are talking about is not that you marry a person in a desert island but that what you do is recognized or not by the whole society an respected or. For all we know, right now, if you want to have two or three wives de facto, nobody will hamper you, but you should see yourself to the kind od arrangements you make that they don't run counter to the law or that they are at all practicable, because of the law or because of the environment. I am all for personal freedom and responsibility, but there are things that are conditioned or imposed by the society in which one lives and the person adjusts or is made to adjust, sometimes gently by the force of things, at times with pressure. At any rate, marriage is ruled by laws and each person cannot have a law for herself or himself. Depending on the understanding of a society, laws may be approved that give more or less scope to individual autonomy, but again, depends on the society.
Hope i have written understandably
Salaam
salaam huruf,
You have excellent points here.
It is correct that marriage laws cannot be personalized, but we do have choices and we can personalize our lifestyle as long as it falls within the law. We can get married or not, we can get divorced or not, we can have more than one wife, if permitted, or not. Just because a law is there... doesn't mean we will choose that route or be forced to choose that route. I'm not going to drink alcohol just because a society has a law that says I can or have a boyfriend on the side because a society has no law against it.
peace,
dotty