Quran's Divinity
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peace
Let me re-post all the posts relevant to this topicLobster
peace Arnold (we haven't talked in a whiiile) Smiley
If we pick and choose which meaning to use, aren't we then just making the quran say what we want it to say?
If the quran really is so "flexible" then it is pointless because it is not saying anything at all. There is never an end to any argument regarding anything because there is always some sort of a question mark over it.
And what it comes down to in the end is observing the signs of the world around us and using reason to arrive at the truth, like Abraham did.
What people are doing is first making the quran the criteria for judging truthfulness, then coming to an understanding about an issue independently of the quran, and then using the quran to promote their understanding.
That is just wrong.
It wouldn't be if we just take the quran out of the equation.I think that due to the age of the quran (our language, culture, and knowledge has changed a lot over 1400 years), it has become impossible to determine what the quran really says, which means we have to let go of the quran and move on.
Jonny K.
Peace "lobster",
Well you are entitled to your view but that doesnt mean others will have to agree. IMO, bros Arnold, Edip, etc, understanding and deciphering the true Quranic Message would lead to THE EXPONENTIAL DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION BOTH SCIENTIFICALLY AND SOCIALLY. We need to establish a Quran Alone state to prove this though. Now we'll just have to wait and see. GOD Bless!Lobster
peace Jonny,
Again you did not address the point of my post.
To refute my point, you would have to prove that an exact understanding of the quran is possible, and that Edip and Arnold are not bringing in any outside knowledge whatsoever in deciphering the quran's message (which is obviously not true).We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran. Then why do you keep clamoring for a quran alone state?
How is the quran alone state going to be better in any tangible way?Jonny K.
Quote from Lobster on January 05, 2008, 052301 PM
peace Jonny,
Again you did not address the point of my post.
To refute my point, you would have to prove that an exact understanding of the quran is possible, and that Edip and Arnold are not bringing in any outside knowledge whatsoever in deciphering the quran's message (which is obviously not true).JK- 1stly yes i believe it is possible to decipher the Quran and that before the end of the universe all of it would have been deciphered. Regarding outside sources ofcourse we can use unbiased dictionaries and archeological research to verify the Quranic statements which it even asks us to do. The outside sources though need to be unbiased and must be acquired THROUGH INDEPENDENT RESEARCH. That is the key to understanding the Quran correctly and thats what i beleive bros edip, arnold and the likes are doing.
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We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran. Then why do you keep clamoring for a quran alone state?
How is the quran alone state going to be better in any tangible way?JK- Yes but it is developing very slowly and i beleive that if we have a chance for exponetial deveopment it would be stupid to go for the slow or linear one. GOD Bless!
Lobster
peace
You think that "before the end of the universe" is not slow?
And if you can reach the truth independently of the quran, what's the quran's role then?
This is exactly what I was talking about. Making the quran an idol which must be obeyed, then coming up with your understanding independently, and then using that idol to promote your understanding. It has "wrong" written all over it with bold capital letters.The fact is that people are better off directing this effort somewhere else because trying to understand the quran isn't getting them anywhere, and if we agree with you about the nature of the quran, then even with all their efforts doubled they will not get anywhere because the human race hasn't evolved enough yet.
Like Abraham, we must study the signs in nature, in the world around us, and let experience be our teacher.House M.D. butts in
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We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran.Possible, yes. But, what isn't?
How many free, healthy and morally 'decent' societies have there ever been?
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This is exactly what I was talking about. Making the quran an idol which must be obeyed, then coming up with your understanding independently, and then using that idol to promote your understanding. It has "wrong" written all over it with bold capital letters.Strawman...you can't make conclusions for others and then pick it apart
The idea of 'idols' is from the scriptures. Now tell me, independently of the quran, how do you know what an idol is?
And what is an idol and why?Lobster
I know that in the town I live in, most people are morally good and live healthy lives. No one reads the quran.
Even if you had a "quran alone" government that worked and was free from any corruption, the everyday lives of people wouldn't be any different, or at least wouldn't be any better.I'm not making anything up. I think it's fairly obvious what people here do. In either case it is my observation about others and I offer Arnold's posts in this thread as proof.
The idea of "idols" is not from the scriptures. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. It is an idea that the quran describes, but idols certainly existed before written language was invented and I'm sure there are people who cannot read or write but understand the idea of idols.
An idol, the way I used the word, would be something that is followed/worshipped blindly.
People here make the assumption that the quran is right, then they independently come to an understanding that they think is right, and then fit it into the quran so they can sell it to themselves and others.
I did that too until I realized that if I come to understand the truth, it should be followed because it is the truth, not because the quran says it. The fact that something is true should be enough to accept it, and the fact that something is false should be enough to reject it. The same goes for everything the quran says as well. If people find something in the quran they don't like, then they go about changing the words and interpretation to fit an understanding they already have.
The belief in the "divinity" of the quran creates a messy situation.Kurt
Peace to all,
Lobster, I somewhat agree with you, but do you believe that there are things that are divine, and if so wouldnt the truth be divine whereever we find it, as theres only one truth and we should always search for it and follow it, so would you agree that it is the truth that is divine, and if so is there anything in the Quran that you find as a lie or false or not possibly divine, please give examples from Quran that you disagree with.
Lobster
Peace Kurt,
I can't say I disagree with the Quran on anything, because I'm not really sure what it says!
I find the punishment of a hundred lashes rather odd and I don't think it is warranted or that it would be very effective.
The "dont eat pig meat" command is weird as well, because there are many other dangerous foods that we shouldn't eat but aren't mentioned. Idolfree1 suggested this was meant symbolically and you can go with that interpretation, I guess.
Those are two examples, but again I'm not sure I disagree because I'm not sure if the quran actually says those things.I agree that the truth is what matters, wherever we find it. If we find it in the Quran, that's fine. It's not the quran we're following, it's the truth.
If something in the quran is true, then it is divine. But not the "god wrote that" kind of divine. More like "inspired by god (god being the 'ultimate reality'" kind of divine.
So the divinity of the quran is a conclusion. We read the quran, we examine it, and we decide whether what it says is true or not.
But here's the thing, most "quran aloners" here never concluded anything. It seems they always had the assumption that the quran is right. That's the problem. Because of that assumption, people either follow what they know is wrong just because the quran says it, or (the more sensible ones) don't really read the quran at all, but come to an understanding they think is right independently and then fit it into the quran.
This whole problem would be solved if people stopped believing in the quran's infallibility, and realize that the aim is the truth, not the quran.Not sure if this was addressed to me, but..from Peace
What do YOU know to be true? A great little question I found in the book Spiritual Enlightenment the Damndest thing (by Jed Mckenna). Make sure you question the assumptions that are taken for granted in that question. I'm still working on it myself.
Peace -
Peace,
I know that in the town I live in, most people are morally good and live healthy lives. No one reads the quran.
Even if you had a "quran alone" government that worked and was free from any corruption, the everyday lives of people wouldn't be any different, or at least wouldn't be any better.First, it's not view that you have to be quran alone to be on the 'right' path etc...
There you go, your one town isn't a very good example of having lots of great systems. This whole world is corrupt as heck. Do you see why advice is given in the Quran? Because all we have is corrupt, failed systems.
Quranically speaking let's see how Moses and Aaron estalished the 'qibla' and the house, it was just in a specific community (1087). There's your quran alone 'nation'.
As for not being any better....Based on what? And compared to what?
People here make the assumption that the quran is right, then they independently come to an understanding that they think is right, and then fit it into the quran so they can sell it to themselves and others.
You are right about that. It's also faulty to assume it's wrong because people do that.
Walk the earth, everyone does this. They fit facts to fit their perceptions. Very very few people are only interested in the truth.
The belief in the "divinity" of the quran creates a messy situation.
Why? Is the quran telling you to eat babies? See if it was telling me to do something I would consider wrong/evil, then you may have a point. As for 100 lashings, think about what sexual acts have 4 DIRECT witnesses? The "don't eat pork MEAT" is a great advice. Have you seen this thread?
In any case, in 593 we are told there's nothing wrong with eating any food as long as we maintain righteousness. The advice is for our own good period.
The quran speaks the truth. The truth to me is divine. I have personally verified the truth for myself.
Isn't everything from the God?
Think how Abraham puts what I am saying, into words
2678 "The One who created me, He will guide me."
2679 "And He is the One who feeds me and gives me to drink."
2680 "And if I am sick, He is the One who cures me."All that happens through God's laws that are in place or the resources we've been given. If The God didn't give us resources we would be totally screwed and dead ages ago.
Quran says God is the truth, and idolatry is plain falsehood (2262).
Let's see what else it says about Al-Haqq (the truth)
1781 And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"
242 And do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor keep the truth secret while you know.
The quran is a living book
Soon will We show them our Signs in the horizons and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that THIS IS AL-HAQQ. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (41/53)
As for the stories, I could care less. As they are not relevant
2110 We have sent down to you a Scripture in which is your remembrance. Do you not comprehend?
In the 3 stories of Mary, Joseph and Moses (344, 12102, 2844) . It says "You were not present." In 344 It also says that "You were not a witness." Think about the implications...
2148 And to each is a direction that he will take, so you shall race towards good deeds. Wherever you may be, God will bring you all together. God is capable of all things.
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peace
Quranically speaking let's see how Moses and Aaron estalished the 'qibla' and the house, it was just in a specific community (1087). There's your quran alone 'nation'.
Okay, that makes much more sense. I believe in making efforts to improve your community, to raise awareness among the people around you. That's great. We can create goodness in others by being an example of it, and spreading the message of truth. We can never do it by force.
The idea of a quranic government has never made sense to me. Because ultimately it is a theocracy, and theocracies don't work for several reasons.As for not being any better....Based on what? And compared to what?
How many laws made by the federal or even state government affect your moral beliefs or actions toward others?
What I meant is that the aim of the quran is righteousness. Governments work by enforcing laws. You cannot enforce righteousness. A quranic government will not make the world a better place in that respect.You are right about that. It's also faulty to assume it's wrong because people do that.
It's not wrong because people do it. It is wrong, period.
Walk the earth, everyone does this. They fit facts to fit their perceptions. Very very few people are only interested in the truth.
What's this logical fallacy called? P Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's okay.
Don't you agree that fitting facts into our perceptions is not healthy, because we are no longer connected with the true reality?
I am only interested in the truth, and I am sure that more than a "very very few" people are interested in finding the truth.
I think you didn't really get what I said here. I think people are looking for the truth, they do make an earnest effort to find the truth (at least sometimes), even if they fail. What they do wrong is make the quran say what they have learned. They do that because they need the quran to say it for them to believe it.
That's the problem I highlighted. And as I said, if you take the divine quran out of that equation, it's just people striving to learn and follow the truth. Put it back in, and once again you'll have people trying to fit the quran into reality or trying to fit reality into the quran. The assumption that the quran is divine and must be right is what creates this "messy situation" as I called it.Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
You avoid pig meat because it is harmful.
How and why does the Quran factor into this? -
Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
There is, ref 429, 2195, and most specifically, 54. Pigs meat is singled out because it's very available and horrid. More harmful things are harder to come by (within the bounds of sanity).
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We cant be 100% sure why pig meat is restricted. It is "rijsun" which can have several meanings, see PRL, root Ra-Jiim-Siin.
= Ra-Jiim-Siin = to disgrace and defile, thunder, commit foul deeds, bellow loudly, become hated, something in which there is no good, state of commotion, confuse greatly, make a noise/sound, hinder/prevent, unclean/dirty/filthy, evil, something which is unlawful/forbidden, unbelief/infidelity/doubt.
rijs n.m. 590, 6125, 6145, 771, 995, 9125, 9125, 10100, 2230, 3333
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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peace Okay, that makes much more sense. I believe in making efforts to improve your community, to raise awareness among the people around you. That's great. We can create goodness in others by being an example of it, and spreading the message of truth. We can never do it by force.
The idea of a quranic government has never made sense to me. Because ultimately it is a theocracy, and theocracies don't work for several reasons.
How many laws made by the federal or even state government affect your moral beliefs or actions toward others?
What I meant is that the aim of the quran is righteousness. Governments work by enforcing laws. You cannot enforce righteousness. A quranic government will not make the world a better place in that respect.It's not wrong because people do it. It is wrong, period. What's this logical fallacy called? P Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's okay.
Don't you agree that fitting facts into our perceptions is not healthy, because we are no longer connected with the true reality?
I am only interested in the truth, and I am sure that more than a "very very few" people are interested in finding the truth.
I think you didn't really get what I said here. I think people are looking for the truth, they do make an earnest effort to find the truth (at least sometimes), even if they fail. What they do wrong is make the quran say what they have learned. They do that because they need the quran to say it for them to believe it.
That's the problem I highlighted. And as I said, if you take the divine quran out of that equation, it's just people striving to learn and follow the truth. Put it back in, and once again you'll have people trying to fit the quran into reality or trying to fit reality into the quran. The assumption that the quran is divine and must be right is what creates this "messy situation" as I called it.Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
You avoid pig meat because it is harmful.
How and why does the Quran factor into this?Peace bro,
How many laws made by the federal or even state government affect your moral beliefs or actions toward others?
What I meant is that the aim of the quran is righteousness. Governments work by enforcing laws. You cannot enforce righteousness. A quranic government will not make the world a better place in that respect.I agree with you. I don't believe the quran is doing this. "Do you want to force the people to be believers?" (1099)
It's not wrong because people do it. It is wrong, period.
Correct.
Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's okay.
Don't you agree that fitting facts into our perceptions is not healthy, because we are no longer connected with the true reality?I never said that made it okay. I am saying that's the (harsh) reality. I do agree, yes.
I think people are looking for the truth, they do make an earnest effort to find the truth (at least sometimes), even if they fail. What they do wrong is make the quran say what they have learned. They do that because they need the quran to say it for them to believe it.
That's the problem I highlighted. And as I said, if you take the divine quran out of that equation, it's just people striving to learn and follow the truth. Put it back in, and once again you'll have people trying to fit the quran into reality or trying to fit reality into the quran. The assumption that the quran is divine and must be right is what creates this "messy situation" as I called it.Yeah, I can't disagree with that.
Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
Eat all that is lawful and avoid Bush, I mean shaytan (26. I would say all harmful substances are included in 'satan'. A snapshot of satan
In the Quran, verse (19/44) says that Shait'an is one who revolts against the orders of Allah. Verse (28/15) explains that when Moses stuck a blow to an Egyptian, as a result of which he died, Moses said, "O this was the satanic action!" So this means anything wrong which is done under emotional pressure is Shaitanat.
The ring leaders of the people who opposed the system of Allah were called Shia'teen (2/14, 12/5).
Those barbaric and rebellious tribes whom Solomon brought under his control and put them to work were called Shia'teen (21/82, 38/37). About a tree in Jahannam Allah says, "Its spathes are like the prickly pear." (37/65) Ka Annahu Rouso Shia'teen.
And We guard them against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits (37/7).
So according to the Holy Quran, any authority or power which differs, deviates or revolts against the Law or course of Allah is Shait'an.Lawful are all good things (54-5) Don't prohibit good things that are made lawful (587)
In terms of right/wrong, the rule of thumb is always
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And if they commit evil acts, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order evil!. Do you say about God what you do not know?" -
I agree with you. I don't believe the quran is doing this. "Do you want to force the people to be believers?" (1099)
What's the pro-death-to-apostates reply to that?
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Wakas, the root for "pig" is Ra-Jeem-Seen?
OPF, that's a valid point.
54 They will ask thee as to what is lawful to them. Say "Lawful to you are all the good things of life." And as for those hunting animals which you train by imparting to them something of the knowledge that God has imparted to yourselves-eat of what they seize for you, but mention God's name over it. and remain conscious of God verily, God is swift in reckoning.
Makes sense. If all the good things are lawful, then all that is not good is unlawful.
And House MD, I'm glad we could clear up the misunderstandings. We didn't disagree on much after all.
I just think that if we believe the Quran is true, then that has to be a CONCLUSION, not a presumption.
And, after objectively reading the quran, we find that what it says is not true, then we move on, unafraid that rejecting the book will put us on the path to hell or something. If we later learn that we were mistaken or we misunderstood the quran, we can always go back.peace
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Peace Lobster,
I've many times reflected upon the question of whether or not the Quran itself is subordinate to the critical thinking it promotes. I believe it is, anything else would be hypocrisy. Therefore, if we at some point in our path of thinking and pondering, a path which the Quran promotes, come to believe that there are faults or flaws in that very same Quran, we cannot be said to have strayed from the path or that we rejectors, rather we are simply facing a challenge that has to be dealt with before can continue on our journey.
Nadeem
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I believe GOD wanted us to be vegetarian. It just occured to me, maybe killing an animal for food was the original sin, taking life.
Genesis 1
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground?everything that has the breath of life in it?I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
