Quran's Divinity
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Peace,
I know that in the town I live in, most people are morally good and live healthy lives. No one reads the quran.
Even if you had a "quran alone" government that worked and was free from any corruption, the everyday lives of people wouldn't be any different, or at least wouldn't be any better.First, it's not view that you have to be quran alone to be on the 'right' path etc...
There you go, your one town isn't a very good example of having lots of great systems. This whole world is corrupt as heck. Do you see why advice is given in the Quran? Because all we have is corrupt, failed systems.
Quranically speaking let's see how Moses and Aaron estalished the 'qibla' and the house, it was just in a specific community (1087). There's your quran alone 'nation'.
As for not being any better....Based on what? And compared to what?
People here make the assumption that the quran is right, then they independently come to an understanding that they think is right, and then fit it into the quran so they can sell it to themselves and others.
You are right about that. It's also faulty to assume it's wrong because people do that.
Walk the earth, everyone does this. They fit facts to fit their perceptions. Very very few people are only interested in the truth.
The belief in the "divinity" of the quran creates a messy situation.
Why? Is the quran telling you to eat babies? See if it was telling me to do something I would consider wrong/evil, then you may have a point. As for 100 lashings, think about what sexual acts have 4 DIRECT witnesses? The "don't eat pork MEAT" is a great advice. Have you seen this thread?
In any case, in 593 we are told there's nothing wrong with eating any food as long as we maintain righteousness. The advice is for our own good period.
The quran speaks the truth. The truth to me is divine. I have personally verified the truth for myself.
Isn't everything from the God?
Think how Abraham puts what I am saying, into words
2678 "The One who created me, He will guide me."
2679 "And He is the One who feeds me and gives me to drink."
2680 "And if I am sick, He is the One who cures me."All that happens through God's laws that are in place or the resources we've been given. If The God didn't give us resources we would be totally screwed and dead ages ago.
Quran says God is the truth, and idolatry is plain falsehood (2262).
Let's see what else it says about Al-Haqq (the truth)
1781 And say "The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!"
242 And do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor keep the truth secret while you know.
The quran is a living book
Soon will We show them our Signs in the horizons and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that THIS IS AL-HAQQ. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (41/53)
As for the stories, I could care less. As they are not relevant
2110 We have sent down to you a Scripture in which is your remembrance. Do you not comprehend?
In the 3 stories of Mary, Joseph and Moses (344, 12102, 2844) . It says "You were not present." In 344 It also says that "You were not a witness." Think about the implications...
2148 And to each is a direction that he will take, so you shall race towards good deeds. Wherever you may be, God will bring you all together. God is capable of all things.
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peace
Quranically speaking let's see how Moses and Aaron estalished the 'qibla' and the house, it was just in a specific community (1087). There's your quran alone 'nation'.
Okay, that makes much more sense. I believe in making efforts to improve your community, to raise awareness among the people around you. That's great. We can create goodness in others by being an example of it, and spreading the message of truth. We can never do it by force.
The idea of a quranic government has never made sense to me. Because ultimately it is a theocracy, and theocracies don't work for several reasons.As for not being any better....Based on what? And compared to what?
How many laws made by the federal or even state government affect your moral beliefs or actions toward others?
What I meant is that the aim of the quran is righteousness. Governments work by enforcing laws. You cannot enforce righteousness. A quranic government will not make the world a better place in that respect.You are right about that. It's also faulty to assume it's wrong because people do that.
It's not wrong because people do it. It is wrong, period.
Walk the earth, everyone does this. They fit facts to fit their perceptions. Very very few people are only interested in the truth.
What's this logical fallacy called? P Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's okay.
Don't you agree that fitting facts into our perceptions is not healthy, because we are no longer connected with the true reality?
I am only interested in the truth, and I am sure that more than a "very very few" people are interested in finding the truth.
I think you didn't really get what I said here. I think people are looking for the truth, they do make an earnest effort to find the truth (at least sometimes), even if they fail. What they do wrong is make the quran say what they have learned. They do that because they need the quran to say it for them to believe it.
That's the problem I highlighted. And as I said, if you take the divine quran out of that equation, it's just people striving to learn and follow the truth. Put it back in, and once again you'll have people trying to fit the quran into reality or trying to fit reality into the quran. The assumption that the quran is divine and must be right is what creates this "messy situation" as I called it.Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
You avoid pig meat because it is harmful.
How and why does the Quran factor into this? -
Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
There is, ref 429, 2195, and most specifically, 54. Pigs meat is singled out because it's very available and horrid. More harmful things are harder to come by (within the bounds of sanity).
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We cant be 100% sure why pig meat is restricted. It is "rijsun" which can have several meanings, see PRL, root Ra-Jiim-Siin.
= Ra-Jiim-Siin = to disgrace and defile, thunder, commit foul deeds, bellow loudly, become hated, something in which there is no good, state of commotion, confuse greatly, make a noise/sound, hinder/prevent, unclean/dirty/filthy, evil, something which is unlawful/forbidden, unbelief/infidelity/doubt.
rijs n.m. 590, 6125, 6145, 771, 995, 9125, 9125, 10100, 2230, 3333
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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peace Okay, that makes much more sense. I believe in making efforts to improve your community, to raise awareness among the people around you. That's great. We can create goodness in others by being an example of it, and spreading the message of truth. We can never do it by force.
The idea of a quranic government has never made sense to me. Because ultimately it is a theocracy, and theocracies don't work for several reasons.
How many laws made by the federal or even state government affect your moral beliefs or actions toward others?
What I meant is that the aim of the quran is righteousness. Governments work by enforcing laws. You cannot enforce righteousness. A quranic government will not make the world a better place in that respect.It's not wrong because people do it. It is wrong, period. What's this logical fallacy called? P Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's okay.
Don't you agree that fitting facts into our perceptions is not healthy, because we are no longer connected with the true reality?
I am only interested in the truth, and I am sure that more than a "very very few" people are interested in finding the truth.
I think you didn't really get what I said here. I think people are looking for the truth, they do make an earnest effort to find the truth (at least sometimes), even if they fail. What they do wrong is make the quran say what they have learned. They do that because they need the quran to say it for them to believe it.
That's the problem I highlighted. And as I said, if you take the divine quran out of that equation, it's just people striving to learn and follow the truth. Put it back in, and once again you'll have people trying to fit the quran into reality or trying to fit reality into the quran. The assumption that the quran is divine and must be right is what creates this "messy situation" as I called it.Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
You avoid pig meat because it is harmful.
How and why does the Quran factor into this?Peace bro,
How many laws made by the federal or even state government affect your moral beliefs or actions toward others?
What I meant is that the aim of the quran is righteousness. Governments work by enforcing laws. You cannot enforce righteousness. A quranic government will not make the world a better place in that respect.I agree with you. I don't believe the quran is doing this. "Do you want to force the people to be believers?" (1099)
It's not wrong because people do it. It is wrong, period.
Correct.
Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's okay.
Don't you agree that fitting facts into our perceptions is not healthy, because we are no longer connected with the true reality?I never said that made it okay. I am saying that's the (harsh) reality. I do agree, yes.
I think people are looking for the truth, they do make an earnest effort to find the truth (at least sometimes), even if they fail. What they do wrong is make the quran say what they have learned. They do that because they need the quran to say it for them to believe it.
That's the problem I highlighted. And as I said, if you take the divine quran out of that equation, it's just people striving to learn and follow the truth. Put it back in, and once again you'll have people trying to fit the quran into reality or trying to fit reality into the quran. The assumption that the quran is divine and must be right is what creates this "messy situation" as I called it.Yeah, I can't disagree with that.
Also, my point about the pig meat wasn't that it's not good advice. My point was, why is pig meat specifically, and not other more harmful things? Or why couldn't there be a general rule against eating harmful substances?
Eat all that is lawful and avoid Bush, I mean shaytan (26. I would say all harmful substances are included in 'satan'. A snapshot of satan
In the Quran, verse (19/44) says that Shait'an is one who revolts against the orders of Allah. Verse (28/15) explains that when Moses stuck a blow to an Egyptian, as a result of which he died, Moses said, "O this was the satanic action!" So this means anything wrong which is done under emotional pressure is Shaitanat.
The ring leaders of the people who opposed the system of Allah were called Shia'teen (2/14, 12/5).
Those barbaric and rebellious tribes whom Solomon brought under his control and put them to work were called Shia'teen (21/82, 38/37). About a tree in Jahannam Allah says, "Its spathes are like the prickly pear." (37/65) Ka Annahu Rouso Shia'teen.
And We guard them against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits (37/7).
So according to the Holy Quran, any authority or power which differs, deviates or revolts against the Law or course of Allah is Shait'an.Lawful are all good things (54-5) Don't prohibit good things that are made lawful (587)
In terms of right/wrong, the rule of thumb is always
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And if they commit evil acts, they say "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say "God does not order evil!. Do you say about God what you do not know?" -
I agree with you. I don't believe the quran is doing this. "Do you want to force the people to be believers?" (1099)
What's the pro-death-to-apostates reply to that?
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Wakas, the root for "pig" is Ra-Jeem-Seen?
OPF, that's a valid point.
54 They will ask thee as to what is lawful to them. Say "Lawful to you are all the good things of life." And as for those hunting animals which you train by imparting to them something of the knowledge that God has imparted to yourselves-eat of what they seize for you, but mention God's name over it. and remain conscious of God verily, God is swift in reckoning.
Makes sense. If all the good things are lawful, then all that is not good is unlawful.
And House MD, I'm glad we could clear up the misunderstandings. We didn't disagree on much after all.
I just think that if we believe the Quran is true, then that has to be a CONCLUSION, not a presumption.
And, after objectively reading the quran, we find that what it says is not true, then we move on, unafraid that rejecting the book will put us on the path to hell or something. If we later learn that we were mistaken or we misunderstood the quran, we can always go back.peace
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Peace Lobster,
I've many times reflected upon the question of whether or not the Quran itself is subordinate to the critical thinking it promotes. I believe it is, anything else would be hypocrisy. Therefore, if we at some point in our path of thinking and pondering, a path which the Quran promotes, come to believe that there are faults or flaws in that very same Quran, we cannot be said to have strayed from the path or that we rejectors, rather we are simply facing a challenge that has to be dealt with before can continue on our journey.
Nadeem
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I believe GOD wanted us to be vegetarian. It just occured to me, maybe killing an animal for food was the original sin, taking life.
Genesis 1
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground?everything that has the breath of life in it?I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
