History
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Salam
Do many of you read much of islamic history?? lately i've been reading a little of spain and stories of some travellers, ibn battuta and ibn jubayr..
do any of you believe that muslims at the time of mohammed were true followers, if you are to say you are true followers. what caused the corruption? the hadith everyone might jump to? what i find odd is how on earth can true submitters to god who follow the true path guided by the prophet mohammed and past prophets accept the distribution of hadith, especially if its clear cut clear that it is absolutely wrong or an innovation.. how would they have been so corrupted in such a sort time? was it hidden.. maybe though its odd that true believers haven't triumphed over the corrupt, or that the corrupt have come to such power. or the triumph or struggle has never been discussed in any source.
I'm probably wrong, share your thoughts
salam
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In the past Muslim scholars did not take hadiths for granted. They had something called Ijma or Consensus. Today the game is that if it is in Bukhari books then it is true.
Anyway, if you are into sociology you might wanna try Al Muqaddimah by Ibn Khaldun.
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peace,
When you say short time, how short do you mean? It's at least 200 hundred years by my studies.
Also, I dont think these changes were accepted so easily. Some issues massive in-fighting after prophet Muhammad's death, assassinations, contradictions, over-expansion leading to dilution and a ritualised form, taxation for non-Muslims providing an opportunity for superficial conversion, various schools of thought, Shafi had to argue his case, Persian language/influence defeating Arab language/influence.
I did a small study on this here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7165.0 -
Salam,
393 Absolutely, to God is the true system. And those who set up allies besides Him "We only serve them so that they may bring us closer to God." God will judge between them in what they dispute. Surely, God does not guide him who is a liar, a rejecter.
617 Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about God, while he is being invited to submission? God does not guide the evil people.671 Say "Shall we call upon other than God what cannot benefit us or harm us, and we turn back on our heels after God has guided us?" This is like the one whom the devils have managed to mislead on Earth, he is confused, having friends who call him to the guidance "Come to us!" Say "The guidance is God's guidance, and we have been ordered to submit to the Lord of the worlds."
6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.They were not good people if they fabricated lies against God.
Salam
Al -
Salam
jankren
it's easier to use a hadith then collect a group of people and decide something. Besides there is still consensus well sort of, what do they have these days "fatawa" anyway these days everyones head is to big to be able to have an ijma. Like today if we look at the "relgious" ladder you look at the sheikhs and subhanallah all I see is pride. the day I see a sheikh who prays at the back row even iin the middle rows will be a miracle, even if their the last to get in they will make way to the front to their special place. anyway
Thanks for the link Wakas i haven't had a chance to read it unfortunately i don't have internet connection anymore, inshallah i'll try read it soon. 200 years is long but not that long. they could be grandchildren generation. so the fathers or the child of the father must have got corrupted way to easily.. i dunno i need to read about it i just can't find books on it, or i'm just looking in the wrong places.
aalmakto the thing is people don't believe hadiths are fabrications, and quite possible there are hadiths that are genuine. now as far as i know any muslim will say the only true system is the way of God. people will argue following the prophet is the way of God he would not utter lies because god had purified him, so hadiths must be genuine.. or authentic considering the research involved which in my opinion somewhat blind following.
6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
thats an interesting verse, though i don't believe it alone refers to hadiths.
Sigh God help us
salam
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6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
thats an interesting verse, though i don't believe it alone refers to hadiths.
Sigh God help us
salam
Salam
This verse is not only interesting but true.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha
Broadly, the Halakha comprises the practical application of the commandments (each one known as a mitzvah) in the Torah, as developed in subsequent rabbinic literature; see The Mitzvot and Jewish Law. According to the Talmud (Tractate Makot), there are 613 mitzvot ("commandments" in the Torah; in Hebrew these are known as the Taryag mitzvot " . There are 248 positive mitzvot and 365 negative mitzvot given in the Torah, supplemented by seven mitzvot legislated by the rabbis of antiquity; see Rabbinical commandments.
Classical Rabbinic Judaism has two basic categories of laws
-Laws believed revealed by God to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai (e.g. the written Pentateuch and elucidations therefrom, Halacha l'Moshe miSinai);
-Laws believed to be of human origin but divinely inspired, including Rabbinic decrees, interpretations, customs, etc.
....
The boundaries of Jewish law are determined through the halakhic process, a religious-ethical system of legal reasoning. Rabbis generally base their opinions on the primary sources of Halakha as well as on precedent set by previous rabbinic opinions.
To be blunt, its kind of like the "hadith" of the jews.
Salam
Al -
Salam
jankren
it's easier to use a hadith then collect a group of people and decide something. Besides there is still consensus well sort of, what do they have these days "fatawa" anyway these days everyones head is to big to be able to have an ijma. Like today if we look at the "relgious" ladder you look at the sheikhs and subhanallah all I see is pride. the day I see a sheikh who prays at the back row even iin the middle rows will be a miracle, even if their the last to get in they will make way to the front to their special place. anyway
I used to attend an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia and one day the school hired two Egyptian teachers fresh from Al Azhar. However, after a while they refused to pray together in the mosque unless they were made the imam because they probably felt as Arabs they knew Islam better and deserved the respect. But the school rejected so ever since they began praying in their own rooms.
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thats some interesting info aalmakto subhanallah how easy deception can play in our lives.
are you serious jankren, they prayed in their own rooms lol that's pathetic. so much for gaining more hasanat praying with others..
to much arabs have to much pride in themselves all because they're arab and believe their elite because the prophet was arab, i can't stand it. if their knowledgeable and arab i can understand respect, but the same being said about any other origin. you know though according to traditionalist, the person who knows more quran should be the imam.. imagine them having a competition who knew the most quran ;D
i had a read of the link you posted.. so people think it started from al gazali.. i don't know possibly, i actually like some of his works. anyway it broadened some unknown aspects to me so inshallah i'll read into it and comment
Salam
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Peace Sarah,
what i find odd is how on earth can true submitters to god who follow the true path guided by the prophet mohammed and past prophets accept the distribution of hadith, especially if its clear cut clear that it is absolutely wrong or an innovation..
I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this, but I just thought I'd point out - 'prophet mohammed and other past prophets' were not here to guide. Only the God guides.
peace
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I just want to say - recently I was listening to Quranic recitation and it was said in the Quran that those are the good people who follow the prophet Muhammed. I can see how easily then the hadiths are formulated by the people. But I was also wondering what did the Quran mean - to follow one God and to also follow the prophet? Does any one know about the verse I am referencing about? It is somewhere in the first 2 or 3 chapters.
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I just want to say - recently I was listening to Quranic recitation and it was said in the Quran that those are the good people who follow the prophet Muhammed. I can see how easily then the hadiths are formulated by the people. But I was also wondering what did the Quran mean - to follow one God and to also follow the prophet? Does any one know about the verse I am referencing about? It is somewhere in the first 2 or 3 chapters.
Why kind of God would send a prophet and tell the people to ignore him ... obviously you must follow him.
But the dead can not be followed ..... unless you are nuts.
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Yes zenje your right guidance comes from God, though doesn't it make sense that God sent prophets to help the misguided? though i understand what you mean )
humandesign burhand,
all prophets came with the one message did they not? or at least they all were portraying the same thing. what would you say following the quran would be? -
to much arabs have to much pride in themselves all because they're arab and believe their elite because the prophet was arab,
997 The Arabs (al-arabu) are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent upon His messenger
BTW, Who said the prophet (Muhammad Ibnu Abdullah) was an Arab?
Can you point out a reference / evidence of this in the Quran? -
997 The Arabs (al-arabu) are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent upon His messenger
BTW, Who said the prophet (Muhammad Ibnu Abdullah) was an Arab?
Can you point out a reference / evidence of this in the Quran?Peace Jafar,
I don't think that verse is talking about arabs today. If it were talking about all arabs that would be a racist statement. And if I recall correctly that chapter talks about a specific situation to Muhammad's Time. -
I don't think that verse is talking about arabs today. If it were talking about all arabs that would be a racist statement. And if I recall correctly that chapter talks about a specific situation to Muhammad's Time.
Two points are clear
- That verse is talking about AL-ARABU or THE ARABS.
- There is no verse in the Quran stating that The Prophet / Muhammad Ibnu Abdullah is an ARAB.
The truthfulness of the verse is self-evident and even valid in today's world.
You can many verses with similar theme about THE ARABS in THE QURAN.
You can also find verses that NOT ALL ARABS are like that there are SOME ARABS which are trully a mukmineen.
You can many verses with similar theme about THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK in THE QURAN.
You can also find verses that NOT ALL PEOPLE OF THE BOOK are like that there are SOME PEOPLE OF THE BOOK which are trully a mukmineen.The word ARAB by itself is derived from the Hebrew word ARAV which means DESERT. And ARAVAH means DESERT PLAIN.
Thus AL-ARABU actually means "DESERT PEOPLE".Egyptians doesn't call themselves ARABS at that time.
Syrians doesn't call themselves ARABS at that time.
Mesopotamians (Iraqis) doesn't call themselves ARABS at that time.
Canaanites (Palestines/Israelites) doesn't call themselves ARABS at that time. -
Doesn't it stand for Bedouins Jafar?
Anyway there is good and bad of all sorts. Doesn't matter if their arab or not.
also wouldn't it make sense that the prophet knows arabic to spread the word in arabic. not everything in the quran is black and white.
20113 AND THUS have We bestowed from on high this as a discourse in the arabic tongue, and have given therein many facets to all manner of warnings, so that men might remain conscious of Us, or that it give rise to a new awareness in them
427 and so We have revealed unto thee a discourse in the arabic tongue in order that thou mayest warn the foremost of all cities and all who dwell around it to wit, warn of the Day of the Gathering, which is beyond all doubt some shall find themselves in paradise, and some in the blazing flame.
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Peace all,
There is a positive reference for The desert folk (999).
Also, Al madeena is a COMMON noun in Al Quran.
See 7123, 1230, 1567, 1882, 2748, 2815, 2818, 2820 and lots more.
I agree that Al arabu = The desert folk.
4816 Say to those Nomads/Al arabs who lagged behind "You will be called on to fight a people who are very powerful in warfare, unless they surrender. Then if you obey, God will grant you a good reward, but if you turn away as you turned away before, He will punish you with a painful retribution."
"As you turned away before," interesting.
Also, Al arabu is/can be temporary. If they joined Muhammad they became part of 'ahul al madeenah' (i.e. literally people of the city, whatever city he lived in).
Let's also recall that most of the references to nazerenes and jews are NEGATIVE.
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Peace all,
There is a positive reference for The desert folk (999).
Also, Al madeena is a COMMON noun in Al Quran.
See 7123, 1230, 1567, 1882, 2748, 2815, 2818, 2820 and lots more.
I agree that Al arabu = The desert folk.
4816 Say to those Nomads/Al arabs who lagged behind "You will be called on to fight a people who are very powerful in warfare, unless they surrender. Then if you obey, God will grant you a good reward, but if you turn away as you turned away before, He will punish you with a painful retribution."
"As you turned away before," interesting.
Also, Al arabu is/can be temporary. If they joined Muhammad they became part of 'ahul al madeenah' (i.e. literally people of the city, whatever city he lived in).
Let's also recall that most of the references to nazerenes and jews are NEGATIVE.
In arabic there are three terms
-Proper noun
-Definite noun
-Common noun
Al-madina = Definite noun not a common noun
What is your source of information ? Thanks in advance -
Peace jafar/all.
BTW, Who said the prophet (Muhammad Ibnu Abdullah) was an Arab?
Can you point out a reference / evidence of this in the Quran?I am a little confused, although I can read Arabic, I don't understand the language at all and for my understanding of Quran I totally depend upon the translations. So please ignore any absurdity in my post.
The word ARAB by itself is derived from the Hebrew word ARAV which means DESERT. And ARAVAH means DESERT PLAIN.
Thus AL-ARABU actually means "DESERT PEOPLE".Ok brother, but these desert people spoke a language known as Arabic, quran was revealed in Arabic through a messenger who spoke the same language.
The land they dwelled in was known as Arabia long before the Christian era. The Arabic language was the main symbol of cultural unity among these people and Arabs was the name given to these ancient inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula and often applied to the peoples closely allied to them in ancestry, language, and culture.
Therefore it is confusing as to why the prophet wasn?t an Arab?
A Book of which the verses are made plain, AN ARABIC QURAN for a people who know 41 3.
And if We had sent this as a Qur'?n in a foreign language other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its Verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in Arabic and (the Messenger) AN ARAB?" Say "It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Qur'?n) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand). 41 44.
And We did not send any messenger BUT WITH THE LANGUAGE OF HIS PEOPLE, so that he might explain to them clearly; then Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases and He is the Mighty, the Wise. 14 4.
peace
