Concerning Qibla

Bigmo

Interesting article about this

(1) The Qibla

According to the Qur'an, the direction of prayer (the Qibla), was canonized (or finalized) towards Mecca for all Muslims in or around 624 A.D. (see Sura 2144, 149-150).

Yet, the earliest evidence from outside Muslim tradition regarding the direction in which Muslims prayed, and by implication the location of their sanctuary, points to an area much further north than Mecca, in fact somewhere in north-west Arabia (Crone-Cook 197723). Consider the archaeological evidence which has been and is continuing to be uncovered from the first mosques built in the seventh century

According to archaeological research carried out by Creswell and Fehervari on ancient mosques in the Middle East, two floor-plans from two Umayyad mosques in Iraq, one built at the beginning of the 8th century by the governor Hajjaj in Wasit (noted by Creswell as, "the oldest mosque in Islam of which remains have come down to us" - Creswell 198941), and the other attributed to roughly the same period near Baghdad, have Qiblas (the direction which these mosques are facing) which do not face Mecca, but are oriented too far north (Creswell 1969137ff & 198940; Fehervari 196189; Crone-Cook 197723,173). The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, and the Baghdad mosque is off by 30 degrees (Creswell 1969137ff; Fehervari 196189).

This agrees with Baladhuri's testimony (called the Futuh) that the Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, supposedly constructed in 670 A.D. (Creswell 198941), also lay to the west, when it should have pointed almost directly south (al-Baladhuri's Futuh, ed. by de Goeje 1866276; Crone 198012; Crone-Cook 197723,173).

The original ground-plan of the mosque of Amr b. al As, located in Fustat, the garrison town outside Cairo, Egypt shows that the Qibla again pointed too far north and had to be corrected later under the governorship of Qurra b. Sharik (Creswell 196937,150). Interestingly this agrees with the later Islamic tradition compiled by Ahmad b. al-Maqrizi that Amr prayed facing slightly south of east, and not towards the south (al-Maqrizi 13266; Crone-Cook 197724,173).

If you take a map you will find where it is that these mosques were pointing. All four of the above instances position the Qibla not towards Mecca, but much further north, in fact closer possibly to the vicinity of Jerusalem. If, as some Muslims now say, one should not take these findings too seriously as many mosques even today have misdirected Qiblas, then one must wonder why, if the Muslims back then were so incapable of ascertaining directions, they should all happen to be pointing to a singular location; to an area in northern Arabia, and possibly Jerusalem? tempt

http//www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran6.htm

Bigmo

Genesis 221 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham and he said, Behold, I .

Gen 222 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Gen 223 ? And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

Gen 224 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

Gen 225 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Gen 226 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

Gen 227 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father and he said, Here I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood but where the lamb for a burnt offering?

Gen 228 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering so they went both of them together.

Gen 229 ? And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

Gen 2210 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Gen 2211 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham and he said, Here I.

Gen 2212 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only from me.

Gen 2213 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind a ram caught in a thicket by his horns and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Gen 2214 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh as it is said this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Gen 2215 ? And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

Gen 2216 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only

Gen 2217 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Gen 2218 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 2219 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

Moriah (Hebrew , Mriyy = "ordained/considered by YHWH&quot is the name given to a mountain range by the book of Genesis, in which context it is given as the location of the near sacrifice of Isaac. Traditionally Moriah has been interpreted as the name of the specific mountain at which this occurred, rather than just the name of the range. The exact location referred to is currently a matter of some debate.

In the book of Chronicles it is reported that the location of Araunah's threshing floor is "in mount Moriah" and that the Temple of Solomon was built over Araunah's threshing floor. This has led to the classical rabbinical supposition that this is at the peak of Moriah; a later Islamic tradition recounts that Moriah is the same location as the Foundation Stone, which Jewish tradition holds to be the former location of the Temple of Solomon. However, this tradition is not reported by the centuries earlier Books of Samuel, and biblical scholars view the tradition as somewhat implausible; according to a Biblical passage concerning Melchizedek, Jerusalem was already a city with a priest at the time of Abraham, and thus is unlikely to have been founded after this, at the site of a sacrifice made by Abraham in the wilderness.

An alternative tradition, regarded as similarly dubious by biblical scholars (again due to the Melchizedek narrative), is that Moriah refers to the highest peak of the mountainous ridge on which Jerusalem is built, which would place the location not at the Temple Mount, nor the hill now called Zion, but at the hill of Golgotha (777m elevation).

In consequence of these traditions, Classical Rabbinical Literature theorised that the name was a (linguistically corrupted) reference to the Temple, suggesting translations like the teaching-place (referring to the Sanhedrin that met there), the place of fear (referring to the supposed fear that non-Israelites would have at the Temple), the place of myrrh (referring to the spices burnt as incense). Targum Pseudo-Jonathan interprets the name as land of worship, while the Samaritan Targum regards it as being land of vision.

Most modern biblical scholars, however, regard the name as a reference to the Amorites, losing the initial a via aphesis; the name is thus interpreted as meaning land of the Amorites. This also agrees with the biblical text as it appears in the Syriac Peshitta - where the near-sacrifice occurs at the land of the Amorites, and in the Septuagint, where, for example, 2 Chronicles 31 refers to the location as - Amri. This would give it the same etymological root as Hamor, a person's name in the narrative at Genesis 34 which concerns Shechem. Some scholars also identify it with Moreh, the location near Shechem at which Abraham built an altar, according to Genesis 126. Hence a number of scholars believe that Moriah refers to a hill near Shechem, supporting the Samaritan belief that the near-sacrifice of Isaac occurred on Mount Gerizim - a location near Shechem.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriah

Shechem, Sichem, or Shkhem (Hebrew / , Standard ?em Tiberian ?em; "Shoulder&quot was an Israelite city in the tribe of Manasseh, situated at Tell Balatah 32?1211N, 35?1840E, 2 km east of present-day Nablus) was the first capital of the Kingdom of Israel.

Archaeological evidence indicates that the city was razed and reconstructed up to 22 times before its final demise in AD 200. Within the remains of the city can still be found a number of walls and gates built for defense, a government house, a residential quarter and the ruins of a temple raised to Zeus by the Roman Emperor Hadrian (reigned 117 ? 13, the latter dating to the second century AD.

Its position is clearly indicated in the Bible it lay north of Bethal and Shiloh, on the high road going from Jerusalem to the northern districts (Judges xxi, 19), at a short distance from Machmethath (Joshua 177) and of Dothain (Genesis 3712-17); it was in the hill-country of Ephraim (Joshua 207; 2121; 1 Kings 1225; 1 Chronicles 667; 72, immediately below Mount Gerizim (Judges 96-7). These indications are completed by Josephus, who says that the city lay between Mount Ebal and Mt. Garizim, and by the Madaba map, which places Sychem, also called Sikima between the Tour Gobel (Ebal) and the Tour Garizin (Garizim). We may therefore admit unhesitatingly that Sichem stood on (St. Jerome, St. Epiphanius), or very close to (Eusebius, "Onomast.", Euchem; Medaba map), the site occupied by the town of Nablus, the Neapolis, or Flavia Neapolis of early Christian ages.

Pre-Roman History and Biblical tradition
The old city of Shechem dates back an estimated four thousand years.

At Shechem, Abram "built an altar to the Lord who had appeared to him ... and had given that land to his descendants" (Gen 126-7). This Biblical account, considered by some to be the first place Abraham, Sarah, Lot and their party stopped upon their entry to Canaan. The Bible states that on this occasion, God confirmed the covenant he had first made with Abraham in Harran, regarding the possession of the land of Canaan. On a later sojourn, the sons of Jacob avenged their sister's rape (or by another interpretation, seduction) by massacring the city's inhabitants. Joshua assembled the Israelites in Shechem and encouraged them to reaffirm their adherence to the Torah. During the Judges period, Abimelech was crowned king in Shechem.

Shechem was a commercial center due to its position in the middle of vital trade routes through the region. It traded in local grapes, olives, wheat, livestock and pottery between the middle Bronze Age and the late Hellenic Period (1900-100 BC).

Shechem had been a Canaanite settlement, mentioned on an Egyptian stele of a noble at the court of Senusret III (c. 1880?1840 BC).

In the Amarna Letters of about 1350 BC, Shachmu (i.e. Shechem) was the center of a kingdom carved out by Labaya (or Labayu), a Canaanite warlord who recruited mercenaries from among the Habiru. Labaya was the author of three Amarna letters, and his name appears in 11 of the other 382 letters, referred to 28 times, with the basic topic of the letter, being Labaya himself, and his relationship with the rebelling, countryside Habiru.

Shechem first appears in the Tanakh in Genesis 126?8, which records how Abraham reached the "great tree of Moreh" at Shechem and offered sacrifice nearby. Later Joseph's bones were brought out of Egypt and reburied at Shechem. That the city of Sichem, the name of which (Hebrew sh?k?m ? 'shoulder, saddle&#039 appears to have been suggested by the configuration of the place, existed in the time of Abraham is doubted by a few who think it is referred to in Genesis, xii, 6, by anticipation; but there can be no question touching its existence in Jacob's time (Genesis 3318, 19); it is certainly mentioned in the El-Amarna letters (letter 289), and is probably the Sakama of the old Egyptian traveler Mohar (fourteenth century B.C.; Muller, "Asien u. Europ.", p. 394, Leipzig, 1893).

Owing to its central position, no less than to the presence in the neighborhood of places hallowed by the memory of Abraham (Genesis 126, 7; 345), Jacob's Well (Genesis 3318-19; 342, etc.), and the tomb of Joseph (Joshua 2432), the city was destined to play an important part in the history of Israel. The city, including its Bronze Age temple, fell to the Israelites sometime before 1000 BC

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shechem

Does it not seem that it points to Jerusalem or somehwere near it?

AlFajr

Foundation Stone
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_Stone

"According to the Talmud, it was close to here, on the site of the Altar, that God gathered the earth that was formed into Adam. It was on this rock that Adam - and later Cain, Abel, and Noah - offered sacrifices to God. Jewish sources identify this rock as the place mentioned in the Bible where Abraham fulfilled God's test to see if he would be willing to sacrifice his son Isaac, The mountain identified as Moriah in Genesis 22. It is also identified as the rock upon which Jacob dreamt about angels ascending and descending on a ladder and consequently consecrating and offering a sacrifice upon."

From The Quran (Free-Minds translation)

2125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take, from the trial spot of Abraham, a site for communion. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating."

Dome of the Rock
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock
Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan who initiated construction of the Dome, hoped that it would ?house the Muslims from cold and heat? , and intending the building to serve as a shrine for pilgrims and not as a mosque for public worship.

Cost of Dome
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Malik_ibn_Marwan
When Abd al-Malik intended to construct the Dome of the Rock, he came from Damascus to Jerusalem. He wrote, "Abd al-Malik intends to build a dome (qubba) over the Rock to house the Muslims from cold and heat, and to construct the masjid. But before he starts he wants to know his subjects' opinion." With their approval, the deputies wrote back, "May Allah permit the completion of this enterprise, and may He count the building of the dome and the masjid a good deed for Abd al-Malik and his predecessors." He then gathered craftsmen from all his dominions and asked them to provide him with the description and form of the planned dome before he engaged in its construction. So, it was marked for him in the sahn of the masjid. He then ordered the building of the treasury (bayt al-mal) to the east of the Rock, which is on the edge of the Rock, and filled it with money. He then appointed Raja' ibn Hayweh and Yazid ibn Salam to supervise the construction and ordered them to spend generously on its construction. He then returned to Damascus. When the two men satisfactorily completed the house, they wrote to Abd al-Malik to inform him that they had completed the construction of the dome and al-Masjid al-Aqsa. They said to him "There is nothing in the building that leaves room for criticism." They wrote him that a hundred thousand dinars was left from the budget he allocated. He offered the money to them as a reward, but they declined, indicating that they had already been generously compensated. Abd al-Malik orders the gold coins to be melted and cast on the Dome's exterior, which at the time had a strong glitter that no eye could look straight at it.

Non-Muslim Sources (Warning, some parts of this source are biased)
http//isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html
The Jews
The Qur?an implies that Muhammad severed his relationship with the Jews in 624 AD, soon after the Hijra (migration to Mecca). At that time the direction of prayer, the Qibla, was moved from Jerusalem to Mecca (Sura 2144, 149-150).

However, non-Muslim sources, the Doctrina Iacobi and the Armenian Chronicle of 660 AD, maintain the Arabs and the Jews were allies as late as 640 AD, during the conquest of Palestine. Muhammad established a community of Ishmaelites and Jews based on their common birthright to the Holy Land. This relationship endured at least 15 years beyond the qur'anic date.

Mecca
According to the Qur?an, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Ka?ba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Ka?ba centuries later (Sura 2125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammad?s time.

Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammad?s time, the Qur?an is seriously in doubt

Qibla
According to the Qur?an, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.

The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The ?Amr b. al ?As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.

Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the ?Mahgraye? (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Ka?ba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.

Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Qur?an and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of all mosques. Could it be the Qibla only then shifted to Mecca?

Dome of the Rock
A possible answer as to why early mosques face towards Palestine is found in Jerusalem

In the city centre lies the ?Dome of the Rock?, an imposing structure built by ?Abd al-Malik in 691 AD. It is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. It seems to have been intended as a sanctuary rather than a mosque, as there is no Qibla and its octagonal design indicates it was used for circumambulation. Muslims believe it commemorates the Mi?raj, the night Muhammad went up into heaven to speak to Allah and Moses regarding the number of prayers required of believers.

Yet the inscriptions on the walls of the building say nothing of the Mi?raj but are polemical qur?anic quotations, aimed primarily at Christians. Perhaps this imposing building was built instead as the early sanctuary of Islam, before the adoption of Mecca. This is logical given Muhammad?s intention to reclaim the land of his birthright.

Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow ?Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.

Could it be that the Qiblas of the early mosques were aligned to the Dome of the Rock until the edict of Walid I in the early 8th century?

Nevo?s inscriptions
The late Yehuda Nevo from Jerusalem University extensively surveyed Arabic rock inscriptions, scattered over the Negev and Syro-Jordanian deserts. His research gives a useful picture of the historical Muhammad from contemporary non-Muslim sources.

In the Arab religious texts from the earliest Sufyani period (661-684 AD) there is a monotheistic creed but a complete absence of any reference to Muhammad. His name is only found on Arab inscriptions after 690 AD. The formula Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is God?s prophet) occurs first on an Arab-Sassanian coin from 690 AD, struck in Damascus. More importantly, the first appearance of the Triple Confession of Faith including the Tawhid (God is one), Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is his prophet) and rasul Allah wa-?abduhu (the human nature of Jesus) is in ?Abd al-Malik?s inscription at the Dome of the Rock, dated 691 AD. Before this the Muslim confession of faith cannot be substantiated.

Hence, for a full 60 years after the death of Muhammad, the official Arab religious confession did not include Muhammad in its set formulae. Instead it revealed a monotheistic belief, developing Judaeo-Christian concepts in a particular literary style. When the Muhammadan creed is introduced, during the Marwanid period (after 684 AD) it appears almost overnight as the only form of official religious declaration in formal documents. It seems that Muhammad?s elevation to the status of universal prophet did not occur until the late 7th century, long after his death.

Glory be to God! May God guide to the truth.

Bigmo

Hagar in the Hebrew Bible
The story of Hagar is found in the Bible in the book of Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. The narrative states that Hagar was an Egyptian servant belonging to Sarah, who, being barren, gave Hagar to her husband Abraham as a concubine, so that he might still have children. She gave birth to a son, whom she named Ishmael.

Fourteen years after this, following Sarah's repentance to God for her sins, God allowed Sarah to give birth to Isaac. According to Judaic teachings, God commanded Abraham to obey his wife's wishes and expel Hagar and Ishmael into the desert alone. It is believed that Sarah was motivated by Ishmael's sexually frivolous ways ("making merry" Gen. 219) at a party, which has been translated as a reference to idolatry, sexual immorality or even murder; some rabbinic sources claim that Sarah worried that Ishmael would negatively influence Isaac, or that he would demand Isaac's inheritance on the grounds of being the firstborn.

Abraham is reluctant to send his son away, but God promised to make a great nation out of Ishmael, because he was Abraham's seed. Rising early in the morning, therefore, Abraham took bread and a container of water and sent his former consort, Hagar and his son, Ishmael away.

Hagar intended to return to Egypt, but lost her way, and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. The water in her container failing, she placed Ishmael under one of the trees in the wilderness to cry as she went in search of water a small distance away from him. God ended up rescuing them by showing Hagar a well. Hagar eventually settled in the Desert of Paran.

Hagar in Islamic traditions
According to Islamic tradition, Hagar was the maiden of Sarah, the wife of the founder of the Abrahamic religions, Ibrahim (Arabic word for Abraham), and the daughter of the Egyptian king, who gifted her to Abraham as a wife, thinking Sarah was his sister. Ishmael's birth to Hagar caused strife between her and Sarah, who was still barren. Abraham brings Hagar and their son to Mecca, where angel Gabriel shows him the Ka'aba. The objective of this journey was to "resettle" rather than "expel" Hagar.

The journey begins in Syria, when Ishmael is still a suckling. Angel Gabriel personally guides them on the journey, and part of the journey happens on a winged steed Al-Buraq. Finally, upon reaching the site of the Kaaba, Abraham left Hagar and son Ishmael under a tree and provided them with water. Hagar, learning that God had ordered Abraham to leave her in the desert, respected his decision. Muslims believe that God ordered Abraham to leave Hagar in order to test his obedience to God's commands.

However, soon Hagar ran out of water, and baby Ishmael began to die. Hagar, according to Islamic tradition, panicked and climbed two nearby mountains repeatedly in search for water. After her seventh climb, Ishmael scratched the ground, and water gushed forth from a spring.

Like many other significant figures in the Quran, Hagar is never mentioned by name in the text. The reader never hears her talking to Abraham. However, the reader lives Hagar's predicament indirectly through the eyes of Abraham.

In Hajj
Hagar's repeated attempts to find water for her son, by running between the hills Safa and Marwa has become a Muslim rite (known as the sa`i, Arabic &#1610. During the two Muslim pilgrimages (the Hajj and Umra), pilgrims are required to walk between the two hills seven times in memory of Hagar's quest for water. The rite symbolizes the celebration of motherhood in Islam, as well as leadership of the women.

To complete the rite, Muslims drink from the well of Zamzam. According to Islamic tradition the well was God's answer to Hagar's quest for water. Often Muslims will bring back the water, regarding it as sacred, in memory of Hagar.

So there is Biblical support about Hagar getting lost in Beersheba and finding spring water. But the Bible says that the sacrifice was suppose to take place in Palestine and not Arabia. So what on Earth is Beersheba?

"From Dan to Beersheba" was a familiar saying in the Old Testament (many modern-day Israelites also use the term in their objection to giving up any more God-commanded territory to the "Palestinians&quot. It was used to represent the extent of the national territory at the time. Dan was the northernmost city, Beersheba was the southernmost city.
Beersheba's name is derived from the Hebrew words pronounced beer, meaning well, and sheba, meaning seven. Hence the name of the town meant the seventh well or well of seven. See Seven

The area of Beersheba is first mentioned in The Bible as the place where Hagar went after she was sent away from Abraham because of family conflicts with Abraham's wife Sarah. Hagar was Abraham's Egyptian-born concubine who had a son (see Ishmael) by Abraham when Sarah thought that she herself was unable to have children - a commonly accepted practice of the time. Then, when Sarah did have a son herself (see Isaac), she could no longer tolerate Hagar's presence, so she forced Hagar to leave. Abraham reluctantly agreed to Sarah's demand.

Hagar was not abandoned by God however. He spoke to her directly and helped her. Ishmael went on to become very successful, becoming a great nation from his descendants - the Arab peoples of today. He returned for his father Abraham's funeral at Hebron where he and Isaac placed his body in what has become known today as the "Tomb of The Patriarchs."

The actual well of Beersheba was apparently dug by Abraham's servants, and was a place of conflict when Abimelech's servants attempted to seize it. To avoid conflict, Abraham and Abimelech made a treaty there in which the name of the town Well of Seven, with an extended meaning of Well of The Oath, was established (Genesis 2131).

Other notable events of Beersheba Jacob had his Stairway To Heaven dream in the area, and later God spoke to Jacob there when the Israelites were on their way to Egypt, where they would remain for over 400 years in eventual slavery before the Exodus (Genesis 461). The prophet Elijah sought refuge there after wicked Jezebel ordered him killed (1 Kings 193). Samuel's two corrupt sons who served as judges there caused the Israelites to demand their first king (see Kings of Israel and Judah), which they got in Saul (1 Samuel 81-3, 91-2,17).

http//www.keyway.ca/htm2002/beersheb.htm

So there is no reference to Arabia, Beersheba in the Bible is supposedly in Southern Palestine. So know I see why some here have issues about the Qibla and the Ka'aba.

Abraham said Lord I have settled some of my offspring in a barren valley near Your Sacred House, so that they may observe true worship. (1437) .

So what sacred House is it talking about? I have this

Now the Hebrew word Moreh is derived either from Yara (fear or wonder) or Yarah (archery or moistening)3. Had the original word been Moreh, as the existing text suggests, the biblical translators would have preferred these meanings instead of "prominent land" or "land of vision". The scribes of Pentateuch appear to have found it originally in the form Marwah but being the proper name of an unknown place situated far away in Arabia, it was difficult for them to translate it. Incidentally, there was a similar Hebrew word Marah which is derived from Ra'ah (Vision). The scribes mistook Marwah for Marah and in their effort to make the word meaningful to their predominantly Hebrew readers, translated it "Vision" and "Prominent". When the translations became canonized with the passage of time, the original word was lost or confused and the Biblical scholars ended up with the word Moreh or Moriah.
In translations or versions where the name of the place has not been translated and the original name appears to have been preserved, the various extant forms of the word still suggest that it must have been Marwah.
The confusion was spawned by the fact that the classical Hebrew script had no indications of vowels. These were introduced later. In the absence of an oral tradition of transmission where people would commit the text to memory, the original accents and pronunciations could not be preserved. Consequently, the erroneous insertion of vowels sometimes completely changed the form of words and opened a floodgate of textual corruption. The word in question would have been originally written devoid of vowels but of course with a definite pronunciation. It suffered transformation later when vowels were added.4

http//www.renaissance.com.pk/novrefl95.html

Is Mount Moriah to mean Marwah?

Jack

For Qibla it's simple, See 1087

Bigmo

For Qibla it's simple, See 1087

10.87. We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

The question I guess I am asking is Betsheeba, is it the place Abraham was about to make his supposed sacrifice? Or is it Mecca?

"Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth." Surah #2 Ayat # 158

Al-Safa and Al-Marwah (Safa and Marwah) (Arabic A-af ; Al-Marwah) are two small hills now located in the Masjid al Haram in Mecca, Saudi Arabia between which Muslims travel back and forth seven times during the ritual pilgrimages of Hajj and Umrah.

On another unconventional views and interpretations, Al-Safa and Al-Marwah does not necessarily refers to the two small hills as above.

The classical Arabic dictionary meaning of safa means "the camel and the sheep that give a lot of milk" and "the palm tree that carries a lot of dates". Also, a related word safif means "meat".

In Quran, a plural word closely related to "safa", which is "sawaf", can be found in 2236. - lined in a row/arranged in a row which means "the sacrificial animals lined in row".

As for marwah it has a meaning of the white fragile stone where a cooking fire is started. It also means "the stone on which an animal is slaughtered".

The alternative view provide an answer to the notion that As-Safa and Al-Marwa that currently located in Mecca was the legacy of pre-Islamic pagan rites and have nothing to do with Hajj rituals as prescribed the prophet Ibrahim (Abraham). There is no explicit verse in the Quran that mentioned the need "to travel back and forth seven times" during the ritual pilgrimages of Hajj and Umrah.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Safa_and_Al-Marwah

Narrated 'Urwa

I asked 'Aisha "How do you interpret the statement of Allah,. Verily! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah, and whoever performs the Hajj to the Ka'ba or performs 'Umra, it is not harmful for him to perform Tawaf between them (Safa and Marwa.) (2.15. By Allah! (it is evident from this revelation) there is no harm if one does not perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." 'Aisha said, "O, my nephew! Your interpretation is not true. Had this interpretation of yours been correct, the statement of Allah should have been, 'It is not harmful for him if he does not perform Tawaf between them.' But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume lhram for worship ping an idol called "Manat" which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
When they embraced Islam, they asked Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) regarding it, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! We used to refrain from Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." So Allah revealed 'Verily; (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah.' " Aisha added, "Surely, Allah's Apostle set the tradition of Tawaf between Safa and Marwa, so nobody is allowed to omit the Tawaf between them." Later on I ('Urwa) told Abu Bakr bin 'Abdur-Rahman (of 'Aisha's narration) and he said, 'i have not heard of such information, but I heard learned men saying that all the people, except those whom 'Aisha mentioned and who used to assume lhram for the sake of Manat, used to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.

When Allah referred to the Tawaf of the Ka'ba and did not mention Safa and Marwa in the Quran, the people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! We used to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa and Allah has revealed (the verses concerning) Tawaf of the Ka'ba and has not mentioned Safa and Marwa. Is there any harm if we perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?' So Allah revealed "Verily As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah." Abu Bakr said, "It seems that this verse was revealed concerning the two groups, those who used to refrain from Tawaf between Safa and Marwa in the Pre-lslamic Period of ignorance and those who used to perform the Tawaf then, and after embracing Islam they refrained from the Tawaf between them as Allah had enjoined Tawaf of the Ka'ba and did not mention Tawaf (of Safa and Marwa) till later after mentioning the Tawaf of the Ka'ba.'

http//www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh2/bh2_708.htm

Jack

10.87. We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

10.87. We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into QIBLA, and establish ASSALAAT and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

Notice Dwellings/houses is PLURAL (Buyut). Therefore, your house is your 'qiblah'.

Evyon

10.87. We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into QIBLA, and establish ASSALAAT and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

Notice Dwellings/houses is PLURAL (Buyut). Therefore, your house is your 'qiblah'.

Just a thought, but wouldn't the command to make the dwellings into qibla be conditional upon the previous phrase to "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt", therefore limited to the historical context of the children of Israel sojourning in Egypt?

Peace.

Jack

Exactly -- their qiblah would be limited to them.

Bigmo

Exactly -- their qiblah would be limited to them.

My concern right now is with the location Abraham. Has he ever been to Mecca? What evidence is there that the Ka'ba is associated with Abraham? It so far seems that the significance was due to Quraish and its pagan history. However I have not seen evidence yet about its assoociation with Abraham.

Jack

Peace Bigmo,

Why does his location matter?

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo,

Why does his location matter?

Well because its what gives that place its significance. I think. The Koran talks about the house Abraham and Ishmael built and I am trying to see where the evidence of that place comes from.

AaRoN

it's not a place

Jack

Well because its what gives that place its significance. I think. The Koran talks about the house Abraham and Ishmael built and I am trying to see where the evidence of that place comes from.

Yeah, but you'll never really know for sure. God advises us to not conjecture over things we can never be sure about (1822).

it's not a place

Why not?

unknownuser

Salaams All,

is it a place?

2125
"Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety;"..............

So God made it a place of safety? is there such a place anywhere?
I can't see any such place on the face of the earth, can anyone help?

hmm

Thanks.

AaRoN

HMD when one basketball player stuffs another player's jump shot and he says "this is my house, son, my house!" do you think it means he lives in the arena? do you think it means the other player is really his son?

spiritual books have spiritual messages

"those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" - now find me one historical example of someone living in a glass house that provided the origin of this phrase... or is it perhaps metaphorical in nature?

see what i mean, "son"? P

simple there was a song in the 80s to go along with the movie footloose, also called footloose, sang by kenny loggins... it had a line in it "kick off your sunday shoes" used metaphorically to mean leave your troubles behind

kaiwai

Salaams All,

is it a place?

2125
"Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety;"..............

So God made it a place of safety? is there such a place anywhere?
I can't see any such place on the face of the earth, can anyone help?

hmm

Thanks.

Depends on whether it is a metaphor . I mean, Peter was considered the 'rock in which the church is built' - does it mean that Peter was tied to the ground and had bricks stacked on top of him?

For me, I face towards the dome on the rock - because of its historical significance. If we are a continuation/successor of Judaism, why not assume that if that is the way Jews face, maybe we should be facing that way too.

Jack

HMD when one basketball player stuffs another player's jump shot and he says "this is my house, son, my house!" do you think it means he lives in the arena? do you think it means the other player is really his son?

spiritual books have spiritual messages

"those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" - now find me one historical example of someone living in a glass house that provided the origin of this phrase... or is it perhaps metaphorical in nature?

see what i mean, "son"? P

simple there was a song in the 80s to go along with the movie footloose, also called footloose, sang by kenny loggins... it had a line in it "kick off your sunday shoes" used metaphorically to mean leave your troubles behind

When was Al quran written again? And how would they respond to your basketball analogy? Come on man, you are smarter than that!

Yes I know there are many metaphors. Contextually, a non-physical place just doesn't fit .

unknownuser

Depends on whether it is a metaphor . I mean, Peter was considered the 'rock in which the church is built' - does it mean that Peter was tied to the ground and had bricks stacked on top of him?

For me, I face towards the dome on the rock - because of its historical significance. If we are a continuation/successor of Judaism, why not assume that if that is the way Jews face, maybe we should be facing that way too.

So Br.

Doing it because they do it too, is that a good thing or should one weigh and consider, See the benefits and all e.t.c

With respect ,but;
Once at Marks and Spencer's, we saw a cloth with a small round hole in the centre and my friend asked "do you know what that is for? No!, they put it on the women before going into her so they don't touch her physically as it is forbidden to enjoy her so the least physicality the better."

Well that was enough for me to follow them who believe such things.

How about circumcision- they only circumcise boys and the Muslims have taken a step further about 50% of Muslims - i have been told, even do circumcision on the female gender.

So follow the Jewish nation, well.........How far, Br.

Gods Blessings.

kaiwai