Was the Qur'an the Only Revelation That The Prophet Received From Allah

Roshan

Peace

Salam Brother,

I am not to find defect in Quran....Nor anybody can. My point is both Quran and Hadith are revelation from Allaha and we have to follow.

And We have sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the dhikr that you may explain to humankind what has been sent down unto them that haply they may reflect (1644)

He it is Who has raised among the unlettered ones a messenger from among them who recites unto them his signs and purifies them (and /or helps them grow), and teaches them the book and wisdom, although before they were in manifest error (622). (See also 2231 and 4113, where it is said the Prophet teaches the book and wisdom).

I am sorry, but you have not justified your opinion from the Quran. You said Muhammad received other hadith besides the Quran that were revelations from God and that man must follow as a source of religious law. Dhikr does not mean hadith. Hadith is not mentioned in 622 either. Therefore your argument is invalid. In fact your methodology is as follows

Islam = Quran plus non Quranic hadith
Must find superficial points of concordance to justify 1) because 1) is correct.

Do you not see the fallacy in this logic?

Now about the verse which says "And We have sent down unto you (O Prophet) the book explaining (tibyanan) everything and as a guidance, and mercy, and glad tidings for those who have surrendered (to God) (1689)".

This is the context (as well as other verses) in which 'obey the messenger' and some of the other verses must be understood. Muhammad was the messenger and his duty was to convey the message. The Quran has everything you need to submit to God. The Quran is a book of submission to God, not a book of Chinese grammar. Your example below is absurd.

since there are clearly things that the Qur'an does not explain; for example, the rules of Chinese grammar or the way to fix your computer. Thus common sense requires that we qualify "everything" as something like "everything that is relevant to religion, spirituality, and morality". Hence the Qur'an explains everything only when its verses are interpreted by taking into account both the context within the book as a whole as well as the context of circumstances, practices, and events that are assumed in those statements. Now this latter context is provided partly by the Hadith.

"And We have indeed coined for humanity every kind of similitude (mathal) in this Qur'an that they may reflect (3927; see also 1789, 1854, 305".

Again, this statement should be understood in the same way as the statement that the Qur'an explains everything.

Notice how you deviate from the Quranic script to justify point 1). Why not do the obvious and explore if point 1 really is true? Throw away your assumptions. You have to think why phrases such as 'sunnah of Muhammad', 'hadith of Muhammad, 'hadith of Bukhari' so prevalent in extra Quranic 'Islamic' teachings are never found in the Quran.

Good luck to you. I think you are closer than you realise (or else why would you be here). The verse mentioned by Wakas does not have the disclaimer I have bold fonted!

Roshan

Jack

Peace,

The thing is the hadeeth were never authorized by Muhammad and most importantly God. Not unless The messenger had an interest in being KILLED (6940-46).

1015 And when Our clear AYATS are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said "Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!" Say "It is not for me to change it from my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear if I disobey my Lord the retribution of a great day!"

Ask yourself this Why don't these people simply say 'give us a different ruling!' i.e. hadith?

17/73-76 also talks about this...

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam brother,

Well its good that you accept that many Quranic verse need independent archaeological evidence.
Quran talk's about God,Hevan,Hell for this we cant find archaeological evidence but we or I believe the most in this because the quran say so.
Believing the prophet means following what he said and he explained what 1760 says as it was revealed to him.

Salam,
A.Albruni

JK- Indeed we do. Regarding heaven and hell ofcourse that would come under the category of cosmology rather than archaeology, logically . Professor Frank Tipler has proposed a nice theory for the afterlife and how it could come about in a cosmic crunch explained in his book "the omega point theory". Though it may be lacking independent inquiry at the moment, since the Quran does seem to support it and since it has become our accepted criteria, i tend to agree with many of hs points. Regarding angels, jinn, shaitaan i already explained that they mean "forces/authorities, hidden tribes/elite comunitities, wrongdoer/rebellious being" respectively since thats what the root of those terms mean in classical arabic and not some mythical creatures. Reg 1760 first of all i dont accept that the you(singular in arabic) refers to Muhammad exclusively. 2ndly whatever he was inspired with and is not at some palce or another mentioned in the Quran is IRRELEVANT TO OUR TIME. Also the vision in 1760 could very well be referring to Muhammad's journey to the highest heaven to receive the Quran, as stated in 171 and 531-18. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam Brother,

Read the verse once again you will find the answer "And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe" is this not point that he has to explain

622 - Says "It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-"

Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you who recites unto you Our signs and who sanctifies you (and/or helps you grow) and teaches you the book and wisdom and teaches you what you did not know (2151).

God has verily shown grace to the believers by sending unto them a messenger from among them who recites unto them his signs and sanctifies them (and /or helps them grow), and teaches them the book and wisdom, although before they were in flagrant error (3164).

Check are you in flagrant error.

The verses clearly mention four roles of the Messenger.

To recite the revelations of God unto the people (this is the only one that the Quranites accept)
To purify the people
To teach them the Book (meaning the Qur'an)
Teaching them the wisdom

just because the man is dead, that does not mean that his teachings are. They are preserved in the authentic hadith.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

JK- YES and all these four options are DONE WITHIN THE BOOK QURAN ITSELF. Thats why i mentioned earlier that the Quran explains itself. Whatever Muhammad had to explain or teach or GOD addressed directly to the people are al to be found in the Quran. Egs would be like when GOD addresses it's "ya ayuhalazeena aamanu" or when Muhammad speaks by inspiration "they ask you concerning menses. SAY...". So whatever Muhammad had to say was the explanation which he did as inspired by GOD and stated in the Quran. There are no extra presevred authentic hadith. Theres no proof for that whatsoever. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

If this is the problem then i have the answer for it......
The earth is spear , the sun is spinning will you say this is written here and there so will not believe it - No because you will say that its prove that its spear and spinning similarly the hadhis science is very much proved and anybody with knowledge of the science of hadhis can find out which is fabricated ,which is sahi,which one chain is broken ,wether the person is hones or not etc..

JK- Ok but the point is if not all hadith ENCLOSED IN A BOOK are authentic then WE need to do the job of picking and choosing. And thats exactly the problem. In that case we dont need religion at all. We could just pick up random statements from various smart people all over the world and analyse which make sense and follow them. WE NEED A FULL TRUSTWORTHY SCRIPTURE. Thats exactly the point. Dont you get this?

outstanding individuals of incredible memory-skills and analytical expertise, who journeyed tirelessly to collect hundreds of thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of precious wisdom of their Messenger (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) from those corrupted by weak memories, from forgeries by unscrupulous liars, and from the statements of the enormous number of 'ulama', the Companions and those who followed their way, who had taught in various centers of learning and helped to transmit the legacy of Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) - all of this achieved through precise attention to the words narrated and detailed familiarity with the biographies of the thousands of reporters of Hadith. Action being the best way to preserve teachings, the renewer's of Islam also revived the practice of the blessed authentic Sunnah.

JK- How do you know they were outstanding individuals? Infact your being biased since independent researchers dont at all agree that Bukhari and co were any sort of outstanding individuals. Furthermore theres zero archaelogical evidence to back your claim up. Neither do we know anything about Muhammad's family from independent archaelogical reserach as yet. This claim is thus complete bullcrap.

Its not biased its all Authentic.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

JK- This is nothing more than a faith based claim with no evidence whatsoever. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam Jonney,

Why you dont give damn about chain of narration ? Now you have started saying that "dont know whether the Prophet was always honest in his life or not" when quran says You (O Prophet) are indeed endowed with a great character (684)

Please jonney dont include your self ih this verse 2202 - Among people there are those, who without knowledge, dispute about Allah and follow every rebel satan.

May god guide us to the straight path.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

JK- Does being endowed with a great character mean that one could never lie? This is ridiculous since even the most OVERALL GOOD AND JUST people do come into situations of fear and anger where they are tempted to lie and they do. So please stop this nonsense and think before you throw verses at me. GOD Bless!

Albruni

Peace "albruni",

JK- The separate revelation or rather insiration as i said was for him and for his time only. Theres no way we can proof what that is right now and should GOD have wanted us to follow that He would have included that in the Quran. And it has defintely nothing to do with explanining the Quran. The Quran EXPLAINS ITSELF and this is evident from the many verses which repeat the same evident but adding more details.

Salam brother,

Brother don't get confused.. You did agree that there was separate revelation for the messenger. I have explained from quran stating that propet Mohamed was send to all mankind so the revelation will not limit to his life time.
To prove that GOD wants to follow , i have given many verses which ask to follow the messanger also showed how scientifically its preserved , I showed you the verse were GOD says he will explain the Quran to prophet.
So please don't run in circles.we are hear to understand the true religion not to prove ourself.

JK- Ok tell me what about the stoning verse for married adulterers which according to the hadith was EATEN BY A GOAT. Aint this a sick joke of the scholars accepting this? They claim that GOD is able to abrogate His verses by a goat even. So now we ask if that verse is supposed to be abrgated, why do Muslims still follow and practive it? Theyr clearly contradicting themselves here on this issue.
Also the Quran mentions "la ilaaha ilallah" four/five times BUT nowhere in connection with "Muhammad rasoolullah" even in the very sura named Muhammad verse 19. This is considered the most important pillar in Islam and yet it is not stated in the Quran. I challenge you to show me the shahaadah ads you Muslims recite it in the Quran. IMO that even contradicts the Quran because it clearly states to make NO DISTINCTION between the messengers and by repeatedly mentioning his name along with GOD's to the exclusion of all others your doing just that. GOD Bless!

Its a valid argumentI also read the whole article http//www.quranic.org/quran_article/26/rajm_stoning_to_death.htmk
This problem arise due to lack of knowledge about approaching Hadith.Let me brief about this

Although the stoning punishment was invented in Abbasid era, it was never unanimously approved. The contemporary Sunnah scholars admit that Al-Mu?tazala and Rejectionist (Khawarej) rejected the stoning. (Sayyed Sabiq, Sunnah Scholarship, 2/347, the Encyclopedia of Scholarship based on the four dogmas, 5/69 written by Abdel-Rahman Al-Jazzeeri).
The oldest narrations about stoning were mentioned in Nowata of Malik in a narration by Mohammad Ibn Hassan Sheibani. The narration started as (Malik told us that Yahya Ibn Saeed heard Saeed Ibn Mossayyab said When Omar Ibn Al-Khattab came from Mina ?etc). That means the original narrator of this anecdote was Saeed Ibn Mossayyab. He claimed that Omar delivered an oration claiming the existence of the stoning verse in Qur?an, but it was omitted. However, Ibn Mossayyab was two years old when Omar was assassinated. How can a crawling baby telling stories about Omar. So, it is impossible for Ibn Mossayyab to be the narrator. Also, it is impossible for Omar to say something like that. It means that Omar accused the Qur?an of being forged and this is blasphemy. God, Almighty, said ?We revealed this Qur?an, and we are protecting it.? Al-Hijr 9. So, as far as the subject, this narration is false.
3.There is another anecdote in Mowata no. 692. This anecdote is completely false under all measures. Malik narrated this anecdote from Ibn Shehab (Al-Zuhry) who narrated this by himself. Al-Zuhry lived towards the end of the Umayyad era and was one of the followers who never met the Prophet, peace be upon him, or lived his time. Even though we read the following in Mowata (Malik told us that Ibn Shehab told us that a man admitted committing adultery during the reign of the Prophet. The man testified against himself and was ordered to be stoned. Ibn Shehab said For this, one can incriminate himself by self-confession.
The narrations were iterated after Malik. Shafi?e, Bukhari and Moslem wrote them. Sometimes these narrations claim that certain verses in Qur?an did exist and omitted. Bukhari, died yr 256 A.H., narrated from Omar Ibn Khattab, who died 200 years before him, about verses that were omitted from Qur?an and Omar declared them late. Some of these narrations claim that the stoning rite was stemmed from the monkey?s society before Islam. Bukhari narrated in his anecdote no. 3560? Naeem Ibn Hmmad told us about Hasheem about Amr Ibn Meimoun saying I saw before Islam a bunch of monkeys stoning an adulterous monkey, and I did the same with them. It seems that the monkeys? society before Islam was ahead in applying the stoning. Anybody asked about this monkey?s marital status? Did the narrator discuss this issue with the Clergy of the monkeys and how to prove the occurrence of adultery? Did the monkeys use four witnesses? All of these narrations contradicting themselves.
Contradiction in narrations
Contradiction is the main characteristic of Narrations. Two kinds of contradictory characters appear in narrations partial contradiction in the details of the same story, and major contradiction among different stories. As an example of the latter, Bukhari produced a narration about a man came to the Prophet and admitted committing adultery. The prophet avoided him. The prayer time came and the man witnessed the prayer with the Prophet. He reiterated his confession to the Prophet and demanded to be punished. The prophet said to him did you not pray with us? The man said yes. The Prophet said God forgave your sin. This means that prayer forgives the sins and negates the stoning. This is a stark contradiction with other narrations that are damped with the stoned victims? blood.
While Bukhari, Shafi?e and Malik narrations emphasized that the punishment for the married adulterer is only stoning, we found that Moslem narrated repeated stories emphasizing in them that the Prophet said The punishment of the single is 100 lashes and one year exile. The married punishment is 100 lashes then stoning. The danger in these narrations that it made the punishment for the married adulterer was 100 lashes before being killed stoning. This is another contradiction with other narrations.
These stories and anecdotes were written in the books of narrations to become major source of legislation for Moslems. Especially, when the scholars and the storytellers celebrated them and everyone re-iterated these narrations as ?real? and ?rites?. This was emphasized by the application of these narrations that sent many men and women victims to death based on legislation God never authorized.

About shahaadah. Shahaadah is the belife we have declaration "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.",I understand you dont have any problem in accepting the first line which says "There is no god but Allah, You have only problem in the second phase which says "and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah."

As mentioned earlier, Islam teaches that the Prophets were the best of humanity, specifically chosen by God due to their excellent qualities specifically to preach the message of God to humanity.

?The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ?We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers.?? (2285)

Its a declaration were we accept that There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.
Nobody can disagree with this statement because both has been mention in quran which is true.
I agree that we should not make any DISTINCTION between the messengers and we are not.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam brother,

Brother don't get confused.. You did agree that there was separate revelation for the messenger. I have explained from quran stating that propet Mohamed was send to all mankind so the revelation will not limit to his life time.
To prove that GOD wants to follow , i have given many verses which ask to follow the messanger also showed how scientifically its preserved , I showed you the verse were GOD says he will explain the Quran to prophet.
So please don't run in circles.we are hear to understand the true religion not to prove ourself.

JK- The Quran came through Muhammad's mouth and all the explanations that issued from his mouth due to GOD's inspiration which are preserved are also in their SO NOBODY IS DENYING THAT THE MESSENGER IS SENT AS A MERCY FOR ALL TIMES VIA QURAN. Im trying to make this point clear to you once and for all. There is NO proof that GOD meant any revelation given to the Prophet, BESIDES the Quran, to be preserved otherwise why not include it in the Quran or make a separate perfectly preseved Scripture out of them. In that case id have no problem accepting this.

Its a valid argumentI also read the whole article http//www.quranic.org/quran_article/26/rajm_stoning_to_death.htmk
This problem arise due to lack of knowledge about approaching Hadith.Let me brief about this

Although the stoning punishment was invented in Abbasid era, it was never unanimously approved. The contemporary Sunnah scholars admit that Al-Mu?tazala and Rejectionist (Khawarej) rejected the stoning. (Sayyed Sabiq, Sunnah Scholarship, 2/347, the Encyclopedia of Scholarship based on the four dogmas, 5/69 written by Abdel-Rahman Al-Jazzeeri).
The oldest narrations about stoning were mentioned in Nowata of Malik in a narration by Mohammad Ibn Hassan Sheibani. The narration started as (Malik told us that Yahya Ibn Saeed heard Saeed Ibn Mossayyab said When Omar Ibn Al-Khattab came from Mina ?etc). That means the original narrator of this anecdote was Saeed Ibn Mossayyab. He claimed that Omar delivered an oration claiming the existence of the stoning verse in Qur?an, but it was omitted. However, Ibn Mossayyab was two years old when Omar was assassinated. How can a crawling baby telling stories about Omar. So, it is impossible for Ibn Mossayyab to be the narrator. Also, it is impossible for Omar to say something like that. It means that Omar accused the Qur?an of being forged and this is blasphemy. God, Almighty, said ?We revealed this Qur?an, and we are protecting it.? Al-Hijr 9. So, as far as the subject, this narration is false.
3.There is another anecdote in Mowata no. 692. This anecdote is completely false under all measures. Malik narrated this anecdote from Ibn Shehab (Al-Zuhry) who narrated this by himself. Al-Zuhry lived towards the end of the Umayyad era and was one of the followers who never met the Prophet, peace be upon him, or lived his time. Even though we read the following in Mowata (Malik told us that Ibn Shehab told us that a man admitted committing adultery during the reign of the Prophet. The man testified against himself and was ordered to be stoned. Ibn Shehab said For this, one can incriminate himself by self-confession.
The narrations were iterated after Malik. Shafi?e, Bukhari and Moslem wrote them. Sometimes these narrations claim that certain verses in Qur?an did exist and omitted. Bukhari, died yr 256 A.H., narrated from Omar Ibn Khattab, who died 200 years before him, about verses that were omitted from Qur?an and Omar declared them late. Some of these narrations claim that the stoning rite was stemmed from the monkey?s society before Islam. Bukhari narrated in his anecdote no. 3560? Naeem Ibn Hmmad told us about Hasheem about Amr Ibn Meimoun saying I saw before Islam a bunch of monkeys stoning an adulterous monkey, and I did the same with them. It seems that the monkeys? society before Islam was ahead in applying the stoning. Anybody asked about this monkey?s marital status? Did the narrator discuss this issue with the Clergy of the monkeys and how to prove the occurrence of adultery? Did the monkeys use four witnesses? All of these narrations contradicting themselves.
Contradiction in narrations
Contradiction is the main characteristic of Narrations. Two kinds of contradictory characters appear in narrations partial contradiction in the details of the same story, and major contradiction among different stories. As an example of the latter, Bukhari produced a narration about a man came to the Prophet and admitted committing adultery. The prophet avoided him. The prayer time came and the man witnessed the prayer with the Prophet. He reiterated his confession to the Prophet and demanded to be punished. The prophet said to him did you not pray with us? The man said yes. The Prophet said God forgave your sin. This means that prayer forgives the sins and negates the stoning. This is a stark contradiction with other narrations that are damped with the stoned victims? blood.
While Bukhari, Shafi?e and Malik narrations emphasized that the punishment for the married adulterer is only stoning, we found that Moslem narrated repeated stories emphasizing in them that the Prophet said The punishment of the single is 100 lashes and one year exile. The married punishment is 100 lashes then stoning. The danger in these narrations that it made the punishment for the married adulterer was 100 lashes before being killed stoning. This is another contradiction with other narrations.
These stories and anecdotes were written in the books of narrations to become major source of legislation for Moslems. Especially, when the scholars and the storytellers celebrated them and everyone re-iterated these narrations as ?real? and ?rites?. This was emphasized by the application of these narrations that sent many men and women victims to death based on legislation God never authorized.

JK- So you agree that the stoning punishment is nonsense. Thats a good step forward. However i must tell you that by this you too are going against the majority of "Islamic scholars" in the world and might even be considered a heretic. Maybe youll one day give up hadith besides Quran as being Divine law for us in totality.

About shahaadah. Shahaadah is the belife we have declaration "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.",I understand you dont have any problem in accepting the first line which says "There is no god but Allah, You have only problem in the second phase which says "and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah."

As mentioned earlier, Islam teaches that the Prophets were the best of humanity, specifically chosen by God due to their excellent qualities specifically to preach the message of God to humanity.

?The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ?We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers.?? (2285)

Its a declaration were we accept that There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.
Nobody can disagree with this statement because both has been mention in quran which is true.
I agree that we should not make any DISTINCTION between the messengers and we are not.

Wasalam,
A.Albruni

JK- Dont forget Isa, Moses and others too are mentioned in the Quran as being messengers but never have any of them been singled out in the shahaadah. Why include ONLY Muhammad? I know the ridiculous claim which some make that since Muhammad was the last prophet and messenger, the latter of which he was not(hes the last prophet but not last messenger but that is another topic), his name would confirm all other prophets. But this is nonsense. It is NOT HIS NAME which confirms the previous prophets BUT THE MESSAGE HE DELIVERED. Why dont you say "La ilaaha ilallah wal Quranu Kitaabullah/Kalaam ullah/wahi ullah" for instance? That would include Muhammad and all the prophets without singling out his name? But NO, the emphasis has to be on the human Muhammad himself. You see now where the problem lies? regarding the Prophets necessarily being the best of humanity, this too is nonsensible and unsuported by the Quran. There are a number of reasons why a certain person is chosen as a prophet or messenger. These could include his acceptance amongst his tribe, his skill to talk, GOD testing people whether theyd except the most orinary man amongst them too provided he delievers the truth coming with evidence etc etc. It is not necessarily limited to his character and other people may have qualities which are better than th Porphet as a human. GOD Bless!

Albruni

Peace "albruni"

JK- I believe i explained this in the other post that the Quran is self explanatory and only the Quran has scientific evidence of being accurate and consistent.

I too have explained in my other post that Prophets has been send to explain the Quran and the explanation is preserved in hadith with highly accurate and scientific manner.

JK- It is nonsense to claim that GOD taught some explicit ritualistic prayer to the Prophet outside the Quran. What is meant here is ACCORDING TO THE NATURE OF HUMANS. When wer using our hearts and minds to focus on GOD it is He Who is etaching us and in peace times wed naturally prolong our prayers and in times of war and uproar wed shorten them. Also our underatdning of prayer continuously evolves and so GOD is continuously teaching us what we never knew. Many articles have been written on salat at this forum. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13270.0

Brother, it?s not me who claims, I have mention the verse were god claims so please beware of your wordings. Interestingly you have no proof for this ?NATURE OF HUMANS?.I don?t find any relevant article so you read all the articles and reply me back.

JK- I explained the term BYN in one of my posts above already. Please refer to that. Regarding obedience to GOD and His messenger ive already shown that after the death of the physical messenger the Quran itself becomes the messenger.

Since I have replied to this in my last post , I will wait for your answer

JK- GOD's sends messengers in the language of the people so that they can understand the message, obviously. And no GOD did not send send humans as messengers to be taken as a model. The reason IMO as to why he sends human messengers is to test whether the people would beleive in Him even if Hed send a human just like themselves or not. Malaaika or the universal forces of GOD are not send down because then the TEST WOULD BE OVER as is evident from this verse
We do not send down the malaaikah except for specific functions. Otherwise, no one will be respited.
GOD could also make everyone beleive instantly if He wanted as stated in another verse of the Quran. So this nothing but a test.

If the people can understand the message then it?s easy to send a book as the disbelievers preferred.
If I ask, how you say RK is a messenger? Your answer might be that he came to explain the numbers embedded in Quran, which I personally don?t agree

jonny_k

Peace "albuni",

I too have explained in my other post that Prophets has been send to explain the Quran and the explanation is preserved in hadith with highly accurate and scientific manner.

JK- From what ive heard so far from you nothing of the hadith is preserved in any reasonable manner. I thus consider this statement of yours to be a mockery to science. Theres been no archaelogical(i.e. scientific) verification of the hadith whatsoever. It's all mere hearsay. Your claim that muwatta ahdith must be true since so many supposedly independent people(for which there is no proof either) made similar claims regarding a topic which the Prophet supposedly discussed that it just cannot be wrong. But this very methodology is UTTERLY FALSE. It is very common that some understanings become widepread. These dominant ideas are then passed on to other people and later many make simlar claims. Why do you think the concept of trinity is distributed world wide. Even people in Africa beleive in a simlar trinitarian concept as do educated(but deluded) people in the US. Just because a set of ideas become dominant doesnt mean theyr true. I told you before you do not have any science neitzher does today's so called Muslim world. Thats also why theyr so backward IN ALMOST EVERY ASPECT(morality included) and others have to come to help them. Even the arms they use to fight the west are invented by western scientists. So spare me with the notion of what great science you use to verify hadith.

Brother, it?s not me who claims, I have mention the verse were god claims so please beware of your wordings. Interestingly you have no proof for this ?NATURE OF HUMANS?.I don?t find any relevant article so you read all the articles and reply me back.

JK- GOD is continuously inspiring man. GOD says in the Quran that He teaches by the pen. Now what does that mean? It is an allegorical refernce indcating that a lot of inspiration come to us from writing things down and re analysing them. Btw in that verse GOD is talking about DHIKR not salat which itself doesnt necessarily mean prayer at all. See http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_wakas.htm

Since I have replied to this in my last post , I will wait for your answer

JK- And ive also given a reply to that reply of yours already and will await your answer to that.

If the people can understand the message then it?s easy to send a book as the disbelievers preferred.

JK- It's easy to send a book BUT THATS NOT THE NATURAL SUNNATULLAH WHICH NEVER CHANGES. GOD wants to test the people as ive mentioned earlier otherwise why not GOD reveal Himself altogether with all the universal forces in the open?

If I ask, how you say RK is a messenger? Your answer might be that he came to explain the numbers embedded in Quran, which I personally don?t agree

JK- Yes that IMO was a major function of the once messenger RK and he brought evidence which has been inpendently verified by bros Edip, myself, Bahman, even Layth(as far as the inital count goes) who has otherwise many disagreements with many of RK's counts and others. Whether you agree or not is totally irrelevant. Atheists, christians etc dont agree with Muhammad being a messenger either. Doesnt make them right des it? You have the same biases against RK. GOD Bless!

Albruni

Salam Brother,

When ever we say somthing as a scientific evidence ,we are not the one who does the research or we personally haven't look , smell or feel it.We trust the person who did the research and we accept it.We simply believe that its true because so many people have evidence the research likewise the hadhis are also preserved in a very scientific manner,its just been not bring up to the western world.You have mention a book (the omega point theory) you were not there when it was return or when he made the research or you are not a part in any of his creation then why to believe that book.The chain of narration , the history of the people who narrated , The recording of every hadhis is very much scientific.

Inshallaha i will reply the rest in my next post, since i am bit busy with my work i am not able to reply immediate.

Roshan

Salam Brother,

When ever we say somthing as a scientific evidence ,we are not the one who does the research or we personally haven't look , smell or feel it.We trust the person who did the research and we accept it.We simply believe that its true because so many people have evidence the research likewise the hadhis are also preserved in a very scientific manner,its just been not bring up to the western world.You have mention a book (the omega point theory) you were not there when it was return or when he made the research or you are not a part in any of his creation then why to believe that book.The chain of narration , the history of the people who narrated , The recording of every hadhis is very much scientific.

Inshallaha i will reply the rest in my next post, since i am bit busy with my work i am not able to reply immediate.

On the contrary, the 'hadith' were not collected until Caliph Hisham ordered a religious leader to do so. Before they were prohibited. The religious leader did so reluctantly. I advise you read the book reviewed here

http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
Most scholars of Islamic history that I have encountered view them as frauds (Crone, Hoyland, Aisha Musa).

There are heaps of problems you have yet to counter (history, the Quran, hadith with are stupid, hadith which prevent the recording of hadith, hadith which contradict the Quran), except with an extremely tedious argument that diverts around what the Quran says and replaces it with your opinion.

Following 'hadith' has no Quranic or historical basis.

Good luck with finding the truth (as I have said before, you are beginning to ask yourself these questions or else you would not be here).

Roshan

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Salam Brother,

When ever we say somthing as a scientific evidence ,we are not the one who does the research or we personally haven't look , smell or feel it.We trust the person who did the research and we accept it.We simply believe that its true because so many people have evidence the research likewise the hadhis are also preserved in a very scientific manner,its just been not bring up to the western world.You have mention a book (the omega point theory) you were not there when it was return or when he made the research or you are not a part in any of his creation then why to believe that book.The chain of narration , the history of the people who narrated , The recording of every hadhis is very much scientific.

JK- This is TOTALLY INCORRECT. Nobody believes what scientists tell us BASED ON TRUST ALONE. Infact their results are published in journals WHICH EVERY LAYMAN can watch, accept if he wills and deny it if he/she fells theres something wrong with it. What rational people do though is compare the findings with other independent researchers and see whether theres a conversion of evidence. Thats exactly what i did whilst reading the "omega point theory". It matched with my own independent research and that of some other bros here including bro "Arnold Yasin". Regarding hadith what weve heard so far from you is very far from science.

Inshallaha i will reply the rest in my next post, since i am bit busy with my work i am not able to reply immediate.

JK- Ill be waiting GW. GOD Bless!

Albruni

Peace "albruni",

JK- This is TOTALLY INCORRECT. Nobody believes what scientists tell us BASED ON TRUST ALONE. Infact their results are published in journals WHICH EVERY LAYMAN can watch, accept if he wills and deny it if he/she fells theres something wrong with it. What rational people do though is compare the findings with other independent researchers and see whether theres a conversion of evidence. Thats exactly what i did whilst reading the "omega point theory". It matched with my own independent research and that of some other bros here including bro "Arnold Yasin". Regarding hadith what weve heard so far from you is very far from science.

JK- Ill be waiting GW. GOD Bless!

Assalamualaikum,

Brother JK so far what we both agreed is that Prophet has received other revelation than quran but you don?t want to add those revaluations to quran because you don?t find any solid proof for it........ But those who can read this discussion can clearly understand that I have shown sufficient proof for the authenticity for the hadhis

461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.

I see you avert with disgust when I say Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

And you say you believe in some and disbelieve in some, desiring to adopt a way in between this and that

Quran says Moses as messenger though he died alike Mohammed is also the messenger till the world end.

Dotty

Salaam,

First I want to say, that I don't accept these hadith because I feel they distract from the REAL message.

Secondly, what is the point of having both authentic and weak hadith (for the ones who follow them)?

What was the purpose of collecting and putting to print the weak hadith in the first place?

Peace,
dotty

unknownuser

Salaam,

First I want to say, that I don't accept these hadith because I feel they distract from the REAL message.

Secondly, what is the point of having both authentic and weak hadith (for the ones who follow them)?

What was the purpose of collecting and putting to print the weak hadith in the first place?

Peace,
dotty

Salam,

Good question. I've wondered that as well. If they consider it weak....why do they still reference it?

Salam,
Arnab

jonny_k

Peace "albruni",

Assalamualaikum,

Brother JK so far what we both agreed is that Prophet has received other revelation than quran but you don?t want to add those revaluations to quran because you don?t find any solid proof for it........ But those who can read this discussion can clearly understand that I have shown sufficient proof for the authenticity for the hadhis

461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.

I see you avert with disgust when I say Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

And you say you believe in some and disbelieve in some, desiring to adopt a way in between this and that

Quran says Moses as messenger though he died alike Mohammed is also the messenger till the world end.

JK- No verses youve quoted show that wer to follow extra Quranic ahadith. Infact the Quran already mentions the relevant and authentic sayings of the messenger one of which is
The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have made this Quran of no account."
THUS if you want to follow the messenger youd have to look into the Quran TOO and not extra Quranic sources. The same is true if you want to look at all the relevant hadith of various other messengers mentioned in the Quran WHICH HAVE ALSO BEEN CITED IN THE QURAN. We dont need to go to other sources for that either. GOD Bless!

Albruni

First I want to say, that I don't accept these hadith because I feel they distract from the REAL message.

Salam Brother,

Hadith are not to distract from the REAL message but to explain it more clearly for E.g. (Sala)

Secondly, what is the point of having both authentic and weak hadith (for the ones who follow them)?

What was the purpose of collecting and putting to print the weak hadith in the first place?

It?s a very scientific way to protect the Hadith. Only when they have recorded both the authentic and weak Hadith nobody can add new Hadith, moreover when the record a weak Hadith they have mentioned why it?s weak, with that we can also check the biography of the narrators to see the authenticity

Albruni

Peace "albruni",

JK- No verses youve quoted show that wer to follow extra Quranic ahadith. Infact the Quran already mentions the relevant and authentic sayings of the messenger one of which is
The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have made this Quran of no account."
THUS if you want to follow the messenger youd have to look into the Quran TOO and not extra Quranic sources. The same is true if you want to look at all the relevant hadith of various other messengers mentioned in the Quran WHICH HAVE ALSO BEEN CITED IN THE QURAN. We dont need to go to other sources for that either. GOD Bless!

Salam jonny,

Once again for your reference I will quote it again

The task of the Prophet to deliver and explain Clearly

"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them."

"Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error." .

We can not limit the Prophethood to 23 years because Quran syas

"We did not send you except as Mercy for all creatures."

"We have not sent you except as a Messenger to all mankind, giving them glad tidings and warning them against sin."

If we disobey Allaha (Quran) and His Messenger (Explanation) we will be in wrong path because Qran says so

"If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path."

"He that obeys Allah and His Messenger has already attained the great victory." .

Indeed he our beloved messenger will say that because you have disobey Quran by disobeying the Hadhis

(2527)The day will come when the transgressor will bite his hands (in anguish) and say, "Alas, I wish I had followed the path with the messenger.

461 -- When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.

4150-151 -- Those who disbelieve in All?h and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between All?h and His Messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in some," desiring to adopt a way in between this and that? those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

May God Guide us in the right path...

unknownuser

Salam Brother,

Hadith are not to distract from the REAL message but to explain it more clearly for E.g. (Sala)

Salam,

What you call "explaining" I call ADDING to the word of Allah.

Salam,
Arnab