the book called The Portable Atheist by Christopher Hitchens
-
Peace and salutations to all.
I read the book. Vey very critical of God and everything related to Him, that is Judaism.Christianity etc. Besides the usual expected rant about the absurdities presented in the hadiths, this book actually touched on the quran itself. I believe in God and accept the quran as the word of God. The point here is the same old question - forgive me- is the quran we have today i.e. the published version 114 chapters is really what is meant by "quran"? The book by Hitchens even though is written by atheists seems to make some valid observations. Please do not get me wrong, one can believe whatever he wishes to believe ( I always believed the quran contained materials that may not actually should be in the quran as part of THE holy writ) but it is best to share thoughts so we can reach out for the truth together.
Okay, about the suras 106,108 & 111 for e.g.? what is the point of these suras.. Do they really belong here? Are they part of other Suras and if so it would mean lesser number of suras-not a big deal actually.The bigger deal is to remove if PROVEN to be extra-quranic, the extraneous details, sentences, suras etc. And God willing, to re-establish the real essence of the quran. The book also mentions about additions like "say" etc. Yes I am aware of the "God speaking by Himself,God using human or angelic mouthpiece" discussion,vey well done but maybe we could look into it again..
Sometimes I believe it is a blessing to have atheists around...they actually make us fight even harder for the truth.
BTW this book aslo uses thoeries, yes "just" theories like evolution to prove their anti-God motions. Of course scientists are burying past observations which no one seem to noticethe sun used to be a big ball of fiery gas and now it is called a ball of plasma....(source bad astronomy(the book))...
All want to move closer to the real thing in one way or another..The Quran is one way too.
My love to this extended family of mine. . group -
Peace "rajah",
Oh man the Quran is actually the only religious book i know off which SUPPORTS EVOLUTION and Ibn Katheer pointed this out centuries before Darwin in his book almuqadimmah
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqadimmah
Quote from section "Biology"
"The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys/apes, in which both sagacity and preception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends."
Muqaddimah, p. 74-75.
Here also take a look at bro Arnold's article
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,415,0,0,1,0
I want everyone to get rid of the idea that the Quran supports creationism and is against evolution once and for all. GOD Bless! -
Peace John,
Yes I have already read the article long time ago & read many other pro-evolution muslim writings way before the advent of freemindsorg. You see the book uses the theory(in other words, not a fact) for their claims along with many many other theories and arguments. I am not against or all out cheering for evolution as this never had ever bothered me at all. To put this to rest, my earlier post was mainly about the quran AND all criticism both refutable and incredibly valid and highly praiseworthy they have to shoot at the quran. That was my main concern....
May we all focus on the Quran please? It was no excuse, but I was typing those things after midnight,trying not to fall asleep because I thought if I did not do it then I might as well did not do it at all-the reason for my earlier short message that might not hav e seemed clear enough. This time let me reiterate and maybe add on..Are those suras I mentioned earlier should be considered part of the holy writ?
Is it merely the number 114 (is it officialy still 114?mmmmm http//www.scienceclarified.com/Oi-Ph/Periodic-Table.html) coincides with the periodic table that keeps all happy and content about this current compilation called quran we have now..
AND I still more than ever strongly believe in God and and consider the quran as the word of God. Bros and Sisters, rock on!watch out for me internet album soon.... peace
BandFoxtrot Hill (from Singapore hehe.) -
Peace John,
Yes I have already read the article long time ago & read many other pro-evolution muslim writings way before the advent of freemindsorg. You see the book uses the theory(in other words, not a fact) for their claims along with many many other theories and arguments. I am not against or all out cheering for evolution as this never had ever bothered me at all. To put this to rest, my earlier post was mainly about the quran AND all criticism both refutable and incredibly valid and highly praiseworthy they have to shoot at the quran. That was my main concern....
May we all focus on the Quran please? It was no excuse, but I was typing those things after midnight,trying not to fall asleep because I thought if I did not do it then I might as well did not do it at all-the reason for my earlier short message that might not hav e seemed clear enough. This time let me reiterate and maybe add on..Are those suras I mentioned earlier should be considered part of the holy writ?
Is it merely the number 114 (is it officialy still 114?mmmmm http//www.scienceclarified.com/Oi-Ph/Periodic-Table.html) coincides with the periodic table that keeps all happy and content about this current compilation called quran we have now..
AND I still more than ever strongly believe in God and and consider the quran as the word of God. Bros and Sisters, rock on!watch out for me internet album soon.... peace
BandFoxtrot Hill (from Singapore hehe.)It is more or less established fact now. Theory does not mean "unproven and unevidenced", theory means "plausible description". And the quran alluded to it hundreds of years ago (7114-18, 2920) - who then are we to resist?
Why would you remove any surahs from the quran? From a tasreef based point of view, we need all the information we can get. Just because it may look disfunctional to you or me does not mean we have a right to remove it. If it contradicted, genuinely, then sure - it cannot be a part of the quran - that is the standard the quran itself sets. But it doesn't. If it ain't broke - don't fix it. Perhaps when the quran says it is "fully detailed", it means that it is.
-
Okay, about the suras 106,108 & 111 for e.g.? what is the point of these suras.. Do they really belong here? Are they part of other Suras and if so it would mean lesser number of suras-not a big deal actually.The bigger deal is to remove if PROVEN to be extra-quranic, the extraneous details, sentences, suras etc.
If looking for things that don't actually belong in the Quran, the focus shouldn't be the small passages, but the big ones. To take an example from the bible, it used to be thought that the Gospel of Matthew was written first, and the Gospel of Mark was copied from it later. This was because people thought the Gospel of Mark was a shorter, inferior version of Matthew's, and this is why Matthew is placed first in the New Testament, and Mark is second.
However, today it is understood they got this wrong. St Mark's Gospel was written first, and it was St Matthew's Gospel that copied and expanded upon it. This is a lesson for teachers looking for cheats in general, the essay which is copied is the one with more detail, not less. There's no reason to fear that the very short sura's are fake, as no one has any incentive to fake something that is too small to have any influence on the practise of the religion. Just remember - the Quran is short, the Hadiths are long.
-
Almighty God preserved the Quran Mathematically. There is no need to tamper with it. Taking out or moving any verses destroys many of the twelve thousand plus digit numbers that are multiples of 19. All of the very long numbers are derived from putting every verse in order along with using Sura numbers, numbers of verses, and sums of verses in various combinations. The criteria for these numbers can be observed here http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix1.html
I realize these numbers are based on verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9 being omitted. That is for another debate. One number I am particularly fond of is a 13038 digit number (not included in the link above) which includes Sura number, number of verses, the verses in order and assigns a zero for the Basmalah, accounting for every single verse in the Quran. I was able to fit this number on an 11x17 inch sheet of paper. I've color coded the Sura number and Basmalah in red, the number of verses is in blue. See attachement.
Peace and God Bless