This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real
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Peace Jonny,
NO MAN EYE WITNESS TESTIMONY IS BY NO MEANS ENOUGH.
Yes, it often is.
If that were enough than trinity is perhaps also correct as people claim to have witnessed the event.
I'm not sure what trinity event you're speaking of.
ONLY WHEN THEIR STATEMENTS ARE CROSS EXAMINED WITH THE ADDITION OF OTHER SUPPORTING EVIDENCES AND THOROUGH PSYCHOLOGICAL ANALYSIS can one be convicted of a crime.
You sure about that? You're also ignoring 1118 - why?
Unless something is POSITIVE, proven true, it remains imaginary. Plain and simple.
You are wrong, plain and simple. If I wrote a poem, and then burned it, does that make the poem imaginary?? That's the point you're missing, Jonny. Just because there's no physical evidence of something does not make it false nor imaginary, it only makes it unproven. You cannot say, with any veracity, that anything is true or false unless you have evidence of it being true or false. No evidence means no conclusion.
Your asking to disprove a -ve. Bro what is wrong with you?
No, I wasn't. Let's try it again. Prove to me that you exist. That's positive, right?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "tay",
Peace Jonny,
Yes, it often is.
JK- This maybe the case for backwards or shariah courts but is rationally unacceptable.
I'm not sure what trinity event you're speaking of.
JK- The father, son and holy ghost, GOD forbid, being three separete, yet essentially the same personifications of GOD.
You sure about that? You're also ignoring 1118 - why?
JK- Did you forget to read the previous verse
As for those who are given solid/clear proof(bayyinah) from their Lord, reported by a witness from Him, and before it, ...You are wrong, plain and simple. If I wrote a poem, and then burned it, does that make the poem imaginary?? That's the point you're missing, Jonny. Just because there's no physical evidence of something does not make it false nor imaginary, it only makes it unproven. You cannot say, with any veracity, that anything is true or false unless you have evidence of it being true or false. No evidence means no conclusion.
JK- 1736 makes it clear that we dont pusue things for which there is no evidence. Ofcourse ultimately everything inevitably exists in one universe or another beucase of the never ending chain of causality and hence the ongoing evolution but universes other than ours WOULD BE DEEMED AS IMAGINARY FROM OUR POINT OF REFERENCE. But i believe this is a bit too difficult to understand right now. The important point is that anything unproven should not be pursued and never be considered real unless proven. It can stay as a claim or hypothesis yes but that does not mean one should delve into it too much and waste time with it unless theres evidence.
No, I wasn't. Let's try it again. Prove to me that you exist. That's positive, right?
Peace,
TayJK- My existence can be shown by the fact of analysing my writing style and then comparing if other humans write similar. If an aceptable pattern emerges, you can consider im human. If my writing pattern could be traced back to a computer then well id be a computer writing. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro JK,
JK- 1736 makes it clear that we dont pusue things for which there is no evidence. Ofcourse ultimately everything inevitably exists in one universe or another beucase of the never ending chain of causality and hence the ongoing evolution but universes other than ours WOULD BE DEEMED AS IMAGINARY FROM OUR POINT OF REFERENCE. But i believe this is a bit too difficult to understand right now. The important point is that anything unproven should not be pursued and never be considered real unless proven. It can stay as a claim or hypothesis yes but that does not mean one should delve into it too much and waste time with it unless theres evidence.
Seems like you define real evidence as physical huh? Think about this. Even God didn't show physical heaven/hell to us. Unless you've seen and touched one? I'm sure you don't. Also you can't prove physical real evidence that Quran comes from Prophet Muhammad's mouth right? What you can only show is only his companions writings which they say preserved for generations. Which IMHO is not solid evidence. If you believed Quran is preserved by God. Show me the solid evidence. I don't think you can't. It's just the matter of believing and rejecting that it is from God IMHO. So God is just a hypothesis for you then. Good for you. pr
For me i don't want to delve too much (thank you JK for reminding), I might got strayed or forget the main purpose because of literally focusing too much on one thing (Quran included). But i believe in His mercy. And that mercy and love is still ongoing, continuous. Just waiting and welcoming for any souls who desires it.
and according to 1118
FM And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the witnesses will say "These are the ones who lied about their Lord." Alas, God's curse will be upon the wicked.
How do we know that you are not lying when you says, that man is delusional? Of course it can't be proved scientifically because you can't. Did Muhammad proved his revelation is from God from scientific evidence? When i mean scientific it is empirically proven. I think not. They just believed. Like us, we believed because it's the word of God and no scientific evidence is capable to support that.
There is some experiments from youtube related to this thing. I think the journey beyond this physical world is gonna be the next evolution of humankind. A lot of people have been able to do this. Some who is considered as a traveler have been travelling and researching this stuff. The key is to be open minded. No negative thoughts.
For those who is interested check this out
Michael Shermer Out of Body Experiment
Virtual out-of-body experience
OBE Experiment
keyword oobe, astral projection, Lucid dream, NDE, ESPPeace n thanks for your replies handshake
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Peace Jonny,
This maybe the case for backwards or shariah courts but is rationally unacceptable.
Eyewitness testimony is one of the strongest forms of evidence in the justice system. Countless people have been convicted/acquitted because of it. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny this.
The father, son and holy ghost, GOD forbid, being three separete, yet essentially the same personifications of GOD.
Yes, I know that the trinity is, however, you mentioned an event and you said people claimed to witness it. What is this event?
Did you forget to read the previous verse
The subjects are not the same.
JK- 1736 makes it clear that we dont pusue things for which there is no evidence. Ofcourse ultimately everything inevitably exists in one universe or another beucase of the never ending chain of causality and hence the ongoing evolution but universes other than ours WOULD BE DEEMED AS IMAGINARY FROM OUR POINT OF REFERENCE. But i believe this is a bit too difficult to understand right now. The important point is that anything unproven should not be pursued and never be considered real unless proven. It can stay as a claim or hypothesis yes but that does not mean one should delve into it too much and waste time with it unless theres evidence.
This is a far cry from what you said previously
For anything to be true you have to present evidence.I hope you understand the error in this position now.
My existence can be shown by the fact of analysing my writing style and then comparing if other humans write similar. If an aceptable pattern emerges, you can consider im human. If my writing pattern could be traced back to a computer then well id be a computer writing.
Or the whole concept of JonnyK and writing styles and other humans could be a figment of my imagination during my dream. You can't really prove otherwise, can you?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "tay",
Peace Jonny,
Eyewitness testimony is one of the strongest forms of evidence in the justice system. Countless people have been convicted/acquitted because of it. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny this.
JK- Sorry to disappoint you. Thats not true. I watch court shows very often here in Germany where realistic events are reenacted. What you maybe saying is that eye witnesses and their testimonies are an important part of the judiciary process. I never denied that. They are. BUT without their statements ending up consitently, as theyr questioned one after the other whilst the latter must not listen to the former, or them being too similar as if they had deliebrately planned an accusation, which would constitute as proof, their testimony is NOT accepted and the accused must be released until further evidence supports hisher guilt.
Yes, I know that the trinity is, however, you mentioned an event and you said people claimed to witness it. What is this event?
JK- The event is the rising of Jesus from the cross and then him coming back as a spirit and claiming to be Divine as stated in the book of revealtion in the NT.
The subjects are not the same.
JK- SURE they are related. First the evidence then the witness. They must come together
This is a far cry from what you said previously
For anything to be true you have to present evidence.I hope you understand the error in this position now.
JK- I know what you mean. And ofcourse someone may just utter jibberish or random statements and one of them may turn out to be true. The problem is your taking true in an absolute sense thus shifting the refernce point to someone/something else. However such unknown or unverified truth RELATIVE TO US is not of any use to us at the moment we dont know it. So when i said "true" i meant from OUR i.e. human refernce point. Is this too difficult to understand?
Or the whole concept of JonnyK and writing styles and other humans could be a figment of my imagination during my dream. You can't really prove otherwise, can you?
Peace,
TayJK- This shows youve even failed to understand what proof is. You can with very high probability, BUT YES, NOT with absolute certainty. Proof itself is not an absolute thing. Thats exactly my point and exactly why we can never claim to have the absolute truth. But we can definitely verify things via REPEATED comparison with our perceived external world and hence be satisfied that such and such is so if it does not change during the observation trials. GOD Bless!
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Peace "fadhli",
Peace bro JK,
Seems like you define real evidence as physical huh? Think about this. Even God didn't show physical heaven/hell to us. Unless you've seen and touched one? I'm sure you don't. Also you can't prove physical real evidence that Quran comes from Prophet Muhammad's mouth right? What you can only show is only his companions writings which they say preserved for generations. Which IMHO is not solid evidence. If you believed Quran is preserved by God. Show me the solid evidence. I don't think you can't. It's just the matter of believing and rejecting that it is from God IMHO. So God is just a hypothesis for you then. Good for you. pr
JK- Oh man. The Quran has solid and tangable mathemtical evidence. Now whether you accept that evidence or not is another issue. I must point out at this stage that not all evidence is acceptable to everyone. This is where atheists often go wrong since they claim that proof should be accepted by everyone but this unfortunately is NOT the case mostly because of preconceived notions within those humans. Otherwise why doesnt everyone accept evolution, the big bang, age of the earth, etc for which theres strong physical proof? Further proof for the Quran is the consitency of its staments with the real world and nothing in it ever been falsified. Regarding heaven and hell theres the "omega point theory" by Frank J. Tipler which you might wanna check out. We can hence trust any yet non externally verified BUT AT THE SAME TIME UNFALSFIED atatemnt within the Quran and infact this is what would IMO lead to exponential development.
For me i don't want to delve too much (thank you JK for reminding), I might got strayed or forget the main purpose because of literally focusing too much on one thing (Quran included). But i believe in His mercy. And that mercy and love is still ongoing, continuous. Just waiting and welcoming for any souls who desires it.
and according to 1118
FM And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the witnesses will say "These are the ones who lied about their Lord." Alas, God's curse will be upon the wicked.
How do we know that you are not lying when you says, that man is delusional? Of course it can't be proved scientifically because you can't. Did Muhammad proved his revelation is from God from scientific evidence? When i mean scientific it is empirically proven. I think not. They just believed. Like us, we believed because it's the word of God and no scientific evidence is capable to support that.
JK- Ofcourse the message of the Quran had to be verified with the real world. Thats why its called "bayyinah(proof)" and theres a whole chapter named like tht in the Quran. The Quran is full of proofs and falsification tests like when GOD asked the Jews to kill themselves and simulataneously said that they will never do it. Should theyve done it the Message of Muhammad wouldve been falsified at the very instant
Say, "O you who are Jewish, if you claim that you are GOD's chosen, to the exclusion of all other people, then you should long for death if you are truthful!"
They will never long for it, because of what they have committed. GOD is fully aware of the wicked.
I say the man is delusinal because everyone who applied for any sort of paranormal test failed miserably.There is some experiments from youtube related to this thing. I think the journey beyond this physical world is gonna be the next evolution of humankind. A lot of people have been able to do this. Some who is considered as a traveler have been travelling and researching this stuff. The key is to be open minded. No negative thoughts.
JK- NOTE "physical" too is a relative term. Suppose you enter a dream from whch you never wake up. The surrounding stuff would be technically labelled as "physical". We know that ultimately all hysical stuff boils down to quantum fluctuations/vibrations. BUT GOD does not violate His Laws. Everything operates within the laws of nature. There is not gonna be a jouney beyond this physical world in our life. For this our bodies and the entire matter needs to disintegrate into quantum fluctuations. Otherwise one cannot leave this universe.
For those who is interested check this out
Michael Shermer Out of Body Experiment
Virtual out-of-body experience
OBE Experiment
keyword oobe, astral projection, Lucid dream, NDE, ESPPeace n thanks for your replies handshake
JK- Thanks for the links but did you see http//youtube.com/watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0 ? GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
Sorry to disappoint you. Thats not true. I watch court shows very often here in Germany where realistic events are reenacted. What you maybe saying is that eye witnesses and their testimonies are an important part of the judiciary process. I never denied that. They are. BUT without their statements ending up consitently, as theyr questioned one after the other whilst the latter must not listen to the former, or them being too similar as if they had deliebrately planned an accusation, which would constitute as proof, their testimony is NOT accepted and the accused must be released until further evidence supports hisher guilt.
It seems you're disagreeing just to say you disagree, when in fact you agree. What's up with that?
The event is the rising of Jesus from the cross and then him coming back as a spirit and claiming to be Divine as stated in the book of revealtion in the NT.
I see...an event that no one can possible say that they witnessed. How is this even in the same ballpark as the video in this thread?
SURE they are related. First the evidence then the witness. They must come together
The subject in 1117 is not the same subject in 1118. Do we need to go through it in steps?
I know what you mean.
Great, but these next sentences speak otherwise...
And ofcourse someone may just utter jibberish or random statements and one of them may turn out to be true.
Random acts occasionally being true is not what's being discussed. A person's eyewitness account being neither provable nor disprovable, in this case, is what's being discussed.
The problem is your taking true in an absolute sense thus shifting the refernce point to someone/something else.
No, the problem is you fabricating an argument to try to strengthen your own. Please point out even a hint of me "taking true in an absolute sense" in this subject matter.
This shows youve even failed to understand what proof is. You can with very high probability, BUT YES, NOT with absolute certainty.
You are wrong. The probability of you being part of my dream is actually 50/50 since I'm always either awake or sleeping, and I can't tell the difference. The question was designed to illustrate that you can't bring science into every discussion, this thread included, because it's simply overmatched by things it can't explain.
A nice marriage is humility and science. This type of scientist knows where to draw the line - just as one shouldn't measure Shakespeare with a scale and a word count. You get irrelevant outcomes like .5kg and 15,000 words.
You want to try to undertsand a near-death experience, wait until you have one. Until then, you're shooting in the dark.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "tay",
Peace Jonny,
It seems you're disagreeing just to say you disagree, when in fact you agree. What's up with that?
JK- Huh? Didnt you originally claim that eye witness testimonies ALONE, meaning without their poper evaluation, constitute evidence? That was the point i disagreed with.
I see...an event that no one can possible say that they witnessed. How is this even in the same ballpark as the video in this thread?
JK- The one in the video also makes a claim that he has witnessed something. And as i said even if he has there are perfectly natural explanations for that. This is the point.
The subject in 1117 is not the same subject in 1118. Do we need to go through it in steps?
JK- As for those who are given solid proof from their Lord, reported by a witness from Him, and before it, the book of Moses has set a precedent and a mercy, they will surely believe. As for those who disbelieve among the various groups, Hell is awaiting them. Do not harbor any doubt; this is the truth from your Lord, but most people disbelieve.
Who are more evil than those who fabricate lies about GOD? They will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses* will say, "These are the ones who lied about their Lord. GOD's condemnation has befallen the transgressors."
*Now as GOD already indicated in 1117 that witnesses report along with solid proof ofcourse we can imply this will always be the case. Besides 1118 seems to be talking about the DOJ when everything would be in the open anyways i.e. FULL PROOF, so i dont know what your point is.Random acts occasionally being true is not what's being discussed. A person's eyewitness account being neither provable nor disprovable, in this case, is what's being discussed.
JK- MAN do you know how many people claim to have witnessed Jesus in person or some other person they are mentally attached to? What should this prove IYO?
No, the problem is you fabricating an argument to try to strengthen your own. Please point out even a hint of me "taking true in an absolute sense" in this subject matter.
JK- Well i guss then the problem is as big as i originally thought. WHAT KINNA VALUE DOES THIS SO CALLED WITNESS HAVE?
You are wrong. The probability of you being part of my dream is actually 50/50 since I'm always either awake or sleeping, and I can't tell the difference. The question was designed to illustrate that you can't bring science into every discussion, this thread included, because it's simply overmatched by things it can't explain.
JK- DREAM itself is a relative term. In rare cases one may, whilst in a dream, claim that this is real whilst what is otherwise known as reality, is a dream. A constant dream in which things are stable would be defined as real by the observers within it, inclduing yourself, and youd have to live in it. Youd have to act rationally inside the domain your living. Reality is defined by a domain in which things can be repeated by observers other than yourself and you see them coming to similar conclusions. Dreams are defined as dreams in the first place exactly because they can be distinguished from reality in that theyr unstable with constant fluctuations. AND science can perfectly explain the phenomena regarding such witnesses
http//youtube.com/watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0A nice marriage is humility and science. This type of scientist knows where to draw the line - just as one shouldn't measure Shakespeare with a scale and a word count. You get irrelevant outcomes like .5kg and 15,000 words.
JK- As i said science DOES have very good answers for such "witnesses" as you can see in the clip above.
You want to try to undertsand a near-death experience, wait until you have one. Until then, you're shooting in the dark.
Peace,
TayJK- http//youtube.com/watch?v=LAywxhVvLU4
Anyone can have NDEs. The brain releases its own natural drugs, which have a similar efect as string drugs taken externally, and in case of extreme situations such as NDEs it releases a huge number of them causing immense feeling of pleaure and euphoria. YES this exerience is wonerful but all natural. No one ever came back from an NDE along with some verifible prophecies or knowledge of the yet unrevealed like perhaps a new star, a new planet in galaxy x which could later be discovered. GOD Bless! -
Peace Jonny,
Didnt you originally claim that eye witness testimonies ALONE, meaning without their poper evaluation, constitute evidence? That was the point i disagreed with.
I never said "without proper evaluation". An eyewitness needs to be deemed credible. If he/she is, then his/her testimony becomes credible - so credible, that it's often all that's needed to convict someone of a crime. I'm not sure why you're arguing about this - it seems pretty obvious. Everyday eyewitnesses are picking people out of line-ups whom they've witnessed commit a crime, and everyday people are locked up for those crimes.
The one in the video also makes a claim that he has witnessed something. And as i said even if he has there are perfectly natural explanations for that.
But no one can say they witnessed the trinity!!!!!
Do you understand?
Here's your sentenceIf that were enough than trinity is perhaps also correct as people claim to have witnessed the event.
There is NO event called trinity. It is a concept. Thus, no one could have witnessed it.
wow
JK- As for those who are given solid proof from their Lord, reported by a witness from Him, and before it, the book of Moses has set a precedent and a mercy, they will surely believe. As for those who disbelieve among the various groups, Hell is awaiting them. Do not harbor any doubt; this is the truth from your Lord, but most people disbelieve.
Who are more evil than those who fabricate lies about GOD? They will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses* will say, "These are the ones who lied about their Lord. GOD's condemnation has befallen the transgressors."
*Now as GOD already indicated in 1117 that witnesses report along with solid proof ofcourse we can imply this will always be the case. Besides 1118 seems to be talking about the DOJ when everything would be in the open anyways i.e. FULL PROOF, so i dont know what your point is.I really can't go on with this, bro, since it's side tracking from the thread anyway. If you want to go into it further, I would suggest researching the grammatical concept of "subject" in a sentence - pm me if you wish.
MAN do you know how many people claim to have witnessed Jesus in person or some other person they are mentally attached to? What should this prove IYO?
Every situation is different. If the witness is credible, then there may be something to it. If they're high on LSD, then thy're probably hallucinating. But I would never say something like "without evidence, it can't be true". That's just foolish.
DREAM itself is a relative term. In rare cases one may, whilst in a dream, claim that this is real whilst what is otherwise known as reality, is a dream. A constant dream in which things are stable would be defined as real by the observers within it, inclduing yourself, and youd have to live in it. Youd have to act rationally inside the domain your living. Reality is defined by a domain in which things can be repeated by observers other than yourself and you see them coming to similar conclusions. Dreams are defined as dreams in the first place exactly because they can be distinguished from reality in that theyr unstable with constant fluctuations.
It's great that you have theories about dreams. None of this is relevant, however, to the question I asked you Can you prove that you exist? Which you can't.
As i said science DOES have very good answers for such "witnesses" as you can see in the clip above.
One sentence from the video, which is the very crux of the debate which you and I keep having, illustrates exactly the fallacy in science's overstretching it's bounds "We know that all experiences derive from the brain".
Now if you can't see the fallacy in that, then I really have nothing more to say.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "Tay",
Peace Jonny,
I never said "without proper evaluation". An eyewitness needs to be deemed credible. If he/she is, then his/her testimony becomes credible - so credible, that it's often all that's needed to convict someone of a crime. I'm not sure why you're arguing about this - it seems pretty obvious. Everyday eyewitnesses are picking people out of line-ups whom they've witnessed commit a crime, and everyday people are locked up for those crimes.
JK- Even if the accused did not have a motive? Who evlauates whether an eyewitness account is trustworthy? It needs to be done using the sicentific and rational approach otherwise we cld end up putting a hell lot of innocents in jail and allow hell lot of criminals to get free. Infact thts what happens in most religious communities and so the elite lives on.
But no one can say they witnessed the trinity!!!!!
Do you understand?
Here's your sentence
There is NO event called trinity. It is a concept. Thus, no one could have witnessed it.JK- Ok forget about trinity. I corrected tht and said the event when Jesus arose from the dead or whe people claim today that theyve actually seen Jesus. Can we trust those witnesses even if they never lied before in their life and are otherwise honest people? Think about tht one.
I really can't go on with this, bro, since it's side tracking from the thread anyway. If you want to go into it further, I would suggest researching the grammatical concept of "subject" in a sentence - pm me if you wish.
JK- Ok forget it then. I beelive i stated enough other points.
Every situation is different. If the witness is credible, then there may be something to it. If they're high on LSD, then thy're probably hallucinating. But I would never say something like "without evidence, it can't be true". That's just foolish.
JK- It can come out to be true but is not true at the moment. As an example the theory of evolution may not have been true for people 5000 years ago because probaly no one acepted it. Your defining true in an absolute sense whilst when i use the term im talking relative to the known present observers. But ok lets have it tht way. In that case id say "without evidence one cant make claims of something being true". Better?
It's great that you have theories about dreams. None of this is relevant, however, to the question I asked you Can you prove that you exist? Which you can't.
JK- You have to define what you mean a bit more. Do you want me to prove that im a human? In that case you only need to compare my pattern with those of other humans. Can i prove that your not dreaming all this. Sure to a certain extent too. Just come back 2morrow and see if the same message appears to you on the screen and repeat this over and over. Remember dreams are defined by instabilties. Infact this is how ud perform reality checks to avoid false awakenings after a lucid dream.
One sentence from the video, which is the very crux of the debate which you and I keep having, illustrates exactly the fallacy in science's overstretching it's bounds "We know that all experiences derive from the brain".
Now if you can't see the fallacy in that, then I really have nothing more to say.
Peace,
TayJK- Man what is knowledge? It is what we have acquired through observation. Thats all we have. EVERY claimant of the paranormal whilst tested under controlled conditions has been shown that he/she experieced obes/ndes in his/her brain. Scientists can actually see the neurons firing in the exact same audio/visual areas which would fire in similar patterns if people would look at similar objects in the real world through their senses. Neuroscientists have been studying this for years and hance they can very well claim that they know this. Shoudnt this tell you something? OTHERWISE the term "know" itself would become meaningless since i could do the same for any other issue. Tell me bro Tay when are we justified to say we "know" anything? How do we know that we see with our eyes and not some other mysterious stuff and the eyes are just an illusion? How do we know what causes a car's engine to start? How do we know what causes elephants to communicate with each other over huge distances? GOD Bless!
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Peace Jonny,
It's not about whether or not we can know anything, it's about the PHd's position that he knows "all experiences derive from the brain". No matter how long one studies, or how much data they gather, if this is their premise, they are missing the point entirely. The brain is not the source of the experience, it is the vehicle through which experience occurs. I tried to explain this to you last time but you didn't take it too well. Again, if you can't see this and would rather attribute the brain as the source, then I really have nothing more to add.
A very simple parallel is stress. In some people, stress causes a rise in blood pressure. The stress is external of the body. The effects of the stress take place internally. Now if you wanted to know about the nature of stress, would you measure the person's blood pressure and say stress doesn't exist? That's what these scientists are doing. They're taking the patient back to the lab, artificially inducing a rise in blood pressure, and saying, "Look - I raised my patient's blood pressure with electrodes - all that stress he was talking about must have been imagined."
It's insane, Jonny, and so obvious that I really cannot waste another precious moment of my life trying to convince you of it. Think for yourself, bro, and don't let titles fool you into thinking these people are brighter than you. The quran assures us that we know, and will only know, very little. This is an indictment on the limits of reason and logic. Some things are just bigger than us.
Peace,
Tay -
Last night I tried to induce my self to wake my consciousness and let my body sleep, to experience out of body. I guess i got through sleep paralysis only but not managed to separate my soul and body yet. I think this thing is possible. Just the matter of getting used to. I've never felt what my body was doing when i was sleeping. Kinda fun experiencing things that we haven't experienced yet. Imagine being awake but body is numb for 2 hours i never knew i could do that ). Can't wait to try it again tonight. I wanna give JK some proof that this thing is not just imaginary but a knowing of anything that a thought could think of. ;D
I'll do my best. pr. I pray for God's guidance and protection.
Peace
-
Peace "tay",
Peace Jonny,
It's not about whether or not we can know anything, it's about the PHd's position that he knows "all experiences derive from the brain". No matter how long one studies, or how much data they gather, if this is their premise, they are missing the point entirely. The brain is not the source of the experience, it is the vehicle through which experience occurs. I tried to explain this to you last time but you didn't take it too well. Again, if you can't see this and would rather attribute the brain as the source, then I really have nothing more to add.
JK- The brain is the source of consciusness. And this is what ive been telling you. Evidence from neuroscience shows that WE ARE OUR BRAINS. If what you claim is true then why do people who get externally stimulated by the neurologists as a test later claim that al the actions they did were out of their own free choice whilst they were all induced through magnetic or other stimulance in various brain regions. So where is your evidence coming from? Did you ever conduct a brain study by yourself and published the resuts? I know many people wish that this were not the case and that theres some other hypothetical substance called soul which controls or commands/influences the brain. But this claim lacks any evidence whatsoever.
A very simple parallel is stress. In some people, stress causes a rise in blood pressure. The stress is external of the body. The effects of the stress take place internally. Now if you wanted to know about the nature of stress, would you measure the person's blood pressure and say stress doesn't exist? That's what these scientists are doing. They're taking the patient back to the lab, artificially inducing a rise in blood pressure, and saying, "Look - I raised my patient's blood pressure with electrodes - all that stress he was talking about must have been imagined."
JK- Stress develops IN THE BRAIN. The brain can interpret either internal thoughts as stress or through the input from the five senses mostly audio/visual in this case. The brain then sends signals to the heart which causes a rise in blood pressure. I beleive ive discussed this before. All this is peprfectly natural and does by no means show the presence of a soul or another conscious non brain entity controlling ones brain.
It's insane, Jonny, and so obvious that I really cannot waste another precious moment of my life trying to convince you of it. Think for yourself, bro, and don't let titles fool you into thinking these people are brighter than you. The quran assures us that we know, and will only know, very little. This is an indictment on the limits of reason and logic. Some things are just bigger than us.
Peace,
TayJK- The problem is that your now engaging in wishful thinking. There are a lot of things bigger than us and we know that already. But as to what we do not know, how can we claim any significance in that without evidence? Why should we believe something in the absence of evidence? This is my qs. GOD Bless!
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Peace "fadhli",
Last night I tried to induce my self to wake my consciousness and let my body sleep, to experience out of body. I guess i got through sleep paralysis only but not managed to separate my soul and body yet. I think this thing is possible. Just the matter of getting used to. I've never felt what my body was doing when i was sleeping. Kinda fun experiencing things that we haven't experienced yet. Imagine being awake but body is numb for 2 hours i never knew i could do that . Can't wait to try it again tonight. I wanna give JK some proof that this thing is not just imaginary but a knowing of anything that a thought could think of. ;D
I'll do my best. pr. I pray for God's guidance and protection.
Peace
JK- What youve experienced is well known. It's known as a lucid dream which you and others can gai control over. I myself had one in which i could aczively control my body. I visualized a car with marvellous detail and almost entered it but then the scne faded away. The brains signals are very powerful and can simulate reality. This has nothing to do with a supernatural soul. However some people claim that they can have an OBE in which they can in the real world pick up info which is otherwise hidden to their five senses. This has NEVER been demonstrated under any controlled conditions. GOD Bless!
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Peace JK
Yes it is well known. But it is first time for me be able to control something while asleep. Good to know that you had experienced that dream I also experienced a couple of "realistic kinda feel" dreams but i just don't care about it. What i experienced is just the sleep paralysis. Kinda like the initial phase of lucid dream and OBE. I just want to verify myself whether this OBE is true or not. Hope it'll be in this short time. What i experienced is based on what i learned and practiced. I'm a designer so i got no problem in visualizing things. I managed to woke up for three times and when i came back to sleep i can make this numbness feeling come again which means i'm in control of it (i dozed off the fourth time tho P). Just need to figure out how to float up to separate. Cuz i felt like my soul got stuck to my body.
After surfing about this things, this guy had a similar experience like i did.
From defenceshit
.....so about 45mins through the numbness kicked it. i was still quite awake and aware. except that at this point you feel as if you lose definition, in the material sense, in other words, your foot is no different than your hand. just to double check, and to give assurance to any scepticism, i tried slowly moving my mouth, and a finger or two, which i did with ease, though slowly, to keep myself at that vibration. it was then that i noticed that any physical movement can bring you out of it, depending on the speed of movement, which you have to replace with time and patience. at this point i was kinda curious of what the rest of my body was upto, so i somehow was able to veiw the lower part of my torso and feet without lifting my head or opening my eyes at all. my entire body was glowing white, and everything around me was black. so it was then that i figured that something surely was going on. though the only problem there was that i didnt exactly know what to do next, so i was just boyant, floating in my body loosely for a while. i then decided that i'd give it a break and quite easily moved towards getting a drink of water, and then i just fell asleep.Lucid dream and OBE is two different things. Where LD is a dream that you felt real while OBE, you are the non-physical you with the fully aware of it. You can achieve anything that you can think of or desires in this thought responsive realm. This can also includes heavens angels demons and other weird stuff. As long as you'll stay positive, you'll be safe (that's what i understand from materials that i read). Because there, the power of thought is very powerful. Any slight thinking of our physical body will return you back (you felt like falling or thumping) and any thinking of negatives will be realized ten fold (eg thinking a ghost is chasing you, it will become a ghost that will chase you). With OBE in control, you will be in somewhat a parallel world, similar to this world. And also has access to the source, the knowledge of the universe, the past and future, anything.
I read this book about the nonphysical world. This guy had been an OBEer for 30+ years. He categories them into three kind of environments. non-consensus, consensus and neutral. He said that this consensus environment has been created by thoughts of major social group or religion. Many of these energy environments are extremely old and well established by the collective consciousness of their inhabitants. As the result, the heaven that each of us experiences after death is molded by the consciousness of its nonphysical inhabitants. In short there is a Muslim heaven, a Christian heaven and etc. Anyone who believes will be there according to what they believed when their time is up.
This is the guy responsible. P . Of course there are other authors like him. But i recommend his book. It is more scientific in approach yet simple to understand.
I consider the brain as a cache for any information that is coming from the (so called) soul to our body. So what the soul experiences is been transferred to the brain to interpret it to what we can understand. Based on our language or beliefs that we have been taught since we were born.
I want to verify it myself. ;D. Wouldn't it wonderful to be able to see God's creations on the "unseen" side? I think this thing is worth a try.
p/s Listen to him in person
Peace handshake -
The brain has two sides http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU and the Quran asks for us to utilise all of our faculties
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V26?And We had endowed them with (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect but of no profit to them were their (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect when they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and they were encircled by that which they used to mock at!
Jk - I agree with you about not chasing for things that can not be verified. But the rest of it - I just see that you are using your mind too much when you seem to be fixed on the denial of such matter.
We are evolving people of consciouness - intellect is one mode of learning and intuition may be another. To say one is better than the other is arrogance - they are simply natural attributes that co-exist - like the sun and the moon exist. The greatest minds would have both Yin and Yang consciouness fully developed within themselves and draw on them as per need. God may cause either to awaken and take precedence depending on the evovled status of the individual. Therefore we can not compel someone, only invite them to the way of balance.
In the Quran, we are required to worship, praise and pray to only one God - suggesting that we are not by ourselves alone the owners of our destiny. The intellectuals appear to not hear that straightforward message of Divinity given in the Quran.
I see the main purpose of the Quran as something calling for the bitter truths of life to be recalled which are requird for success as a 'good person'. These bitter truths can not simply be concerned about the science behind it all - about how God works - what is His nature etc or even rituals and practices. Such aspects by themselves is what is happening in the paradigm of new ageism and they are with holes as they are not practiacally the highest in morality.
Rather the message of truth in the Quran is with regards to how we were and are DESIGNED to live - in the highest and most moral way.....whether a person comes to know the science behind it all does not matter - as much as practically living the wisdom. In the day of judgement we will not be judged by how much knowledge we gained about life - but we will be weighted by our deeds that be manifest for the casue of God and not for ourselves.
The essential message is to do good works for others in society and not wrongfully harm another and not fall from the straight and simple path to the path of error/misjudgement on reality etc - the path woven by satan.
Protection is sought from God for being safe from that evil ? not simply of seeking of protection through wisdom or right conduct by the person themself in which case God would have made that only explicit in the Quran - but both modes are called upon.
Surah3 Al Imran V36?. I have named her Mary and I commend her and her offspring to thy protection from the evil one, the rejected.So those of you getting fixated as to the details - the workings of nature etc - please take heed. Following one's intellect to take precedence over all other faculties is a kind of escapism or self preoccupation or self entertainment and does very little if anything to improve the quality of life for oneself or others - in fact many people living such a life will tend to be dysfunctional. Essentially it's just another way of worshipping oneself.
Einstein was unable to take care of his basic human needs and in the later part of his life went around unkempt and in a fog of his mental persuits. Most intellectuals fall in to this way.
Fadhli - In Judaism and Christianity the development of knowledge in the unknown is the basic symbol of our seperation from God - this is the symbol of the eating of the Apple of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. The Quran says to take seriously the messages of previous scripture......do you beleive that the Quran has authorised for what you have started practicing??
The Quran advocates that the beleivers are those who beleive in the Book/s, the angels and His signs. (I don't have teh specific reference at this time)
What are His signs? ? the miracles of nature in themselves show the possibility of all things ? they all form part of the natural phenomena.
Surah 45 Al Jathiyah V3-11 Verily in the heavens and the earth, are signs for those who beleive. And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of Night and Day and the fact that Allah sends down sustencance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after it's death and in the change of the winds - are signs for those that are wise..Signs can also be divinely inspired thorught words and wisdom
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V7-8 When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, the unbelievers say, of the truth when it comes to them ?This is evident sorcery!? Or do they say he has forged it?.The signs do not need to contain additional proofs of any matter ? it is the truth of the message that be proof in itself
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V9 Say ?I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow that which is revealed to me by inspiration I am but a warner open and clear.?The unbelievers want to experience the same inspiration form themselves before they believe
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V11 The unbelievers say of those who believe ?if (this message) were a good thing, (such men) would not have gone to it before us!The unbelievers do not feel their lives are guided through themselves
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V11 ??And seeing that they guide not themselves thereby, they will say, ?This is an old falsehood!?Only those that remain firm on the path of guidance form God can expect to be guided with God?s truth as opposed to being guided to all forms of deviances
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V13 Verily those who say ?Our Lord is Allah,? and remain firm (on that path) ? on them shall be no fear, nor shall they greive.To hear the signs ? you need to engage not just the intellect but also you need to not reject what you hear, not reject what you see and not reject what you feel through your heart
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V26?And We had endowed them with (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect but of no profit to them were their (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect when they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and they were encircled by that which they used to mock at!Protection is sought from God for being safe from evil ? not simply of seeking of protection through wisdom or right conduct in itself.
Surah3 Al Imran V36?. I have named her Mary and I commend her and her offspring to thy protection from the evil one, the rejected. -
Amin74
What I found most interesting about this mans experience is what he perceived as hell. in the clip he mentioned hell as being a void of anything or non-existence. This agrees completely with Al Quran when it says that even hell will not exist forever.Actually
Surah 43 Al Zukhruf V74 The sinners shall be in the punishment of hell to dwell therein......V77 They will cry 'O Malik! Would that thy Lord put an end to us!' He will say, 'Nay, but ye shall abide
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Peace "fadhli" and "humandesign",
You spend too much time looking for the paranormal instead of livng in the actual real world which GOD has created. The unseen parts are RIGHT HERE in our world. No need to try and venture off into fantasy land. There are so many things still to investiaget on our own planet let alone the universe. Thats what the Quran asks us to contemplate on. GOD Bless! -
JK - How dare you accuse me of chasing pranormal matters????
I am not in search of the paranormal - such matters are not part of my drive. I am in to living life the normal way.
Where on earth did you get that idea that I am chasing the paranormal when I have been trying to advocate against proceeding in such matters.Please try to listen more to what others are saying and you might find yourself also listening to life and God in general much more.
May such a request also be my prayer for you.