This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real
-
Peace "Tay",
Peace Jonny,
I never said "without proper evaluation". An eyewitness needs to be deemed credible. If he/she is, then his/her testimony becomes credible - so credible, that it's often all that's needed to convict someone of a crime. I'm not sure why you're arguing about this - it seems pretty obvious. Everyday eyewitnesses are picking people out of line-ups whom they've witnessed commit a crime, and everyday people are locked up for those crimes.
JK- Even if the accused did not have a motive? Who evlauates whether an eyewitness account is trustworthy? It needs to be done using the sicentific and rational approach otherwise we cld end up putting a hell lot of innocents in jail and allow hell lot of criminals to get free. Infact thts what happens in most religious communities and so the elite lives on.
But no one can say they witnessed the trinity!!!!!
Do you understand?
Here's your sentence
There is NO event called trinity. It is a concept. Thus, no one could have witnessed it.JK- Ok forget about trinity. I corrected tht and said the event when Jesus arose from the dead or whe people claim today that theyve actually seen Jesus. Can we trust those witnesses even if they never lied before in their life and are otherwise honest people? Think about tht one.
I really can't go on with this, bro, since it's side tracking from the thread anyway. If you want to go into it further, I would suggest researching the grammatical concept of "subject" in a sentence - pm me if you wish.
JK- Ok forget it then. I beelive i stated enough other points.
Every situation is different. If the witness is credible, then there may be something to it. If they're high on LSD, then thy're probably hallucinating. But I would never say something like "without evidence, it can't be true". That's just foolish.
JK- It can come out to be true but is not true at the moment. As an example the theory of evolution may not have been true for people 5000 years ago because probaly no one acepted it. Your defining true in an absolute sense whilst when i use the term im talking relative to the known present observers. But ok lets have it tht way. In that case id say "without evidence one cant make claims of something being true". Better?
It's great that you have theories about dreams. None of this is relevant, however, to the question I asked you Can you prove that you exist? Which you can't.
JK- You have to define what you mean a bit more. Do you want me to prove that im a human? In that case you only need to compare my pattern with those of other humans. Can i prove that your not dreaming all this. Sure to a certain extent too. Just come back 2morrow and see if the same message appears to you on the screen and repeat this over and over. Remember dreams are defined by instabilties. Infact this is how ud perform reality checks to avoid false awakenings after a lucid dream.
One sentence from the video, which is the very crux of the debate which you and I keep having, illustrates exactly the fallacy in science's overstretching it's bounds "We know that all experiences derive from the brain".
Now if you can't see the fallacy in that, then I really have nothing more to say.
Peace,
TayJK- Man what is knowledge? It is what we have acquired through observation. Thats all we have. EVERY claimant of the paranormal whilst tested under controlled conditions has been shown that he/she experieced obes/ndes in his/her brain. Scientists can actually see the neurons firing in the exact same audio/visual areas which would fire in similar patterns if people would look at similar objects in the real world through their senses. Neuroscientists have been studying this for years and hance they can very well claim that they know this. Shoudnt this tell you something? OTHERWISE the term "know" itself would become meaningless since i could do the same for any other issue. Tell me bro Tay when are we justified to say we "know" anything? How do we know that we see with our eyes and not some other mysterious stuff and the eyes are just an illusion? How do we know what causes a car's engine to start? How do we know what causes elephants to communicate with each other over huge distances? GOD Bless!
-
Peace Jonny,
It's not about whether or not we can know anything, it's about the PHd's position that he knows "all experiences derive from the brain". No matter how long one studies, or how much data they gather, if this is their premise, they are missing the point entirely. The brain is not the source of the experience, it is the vehicle through which experience occurs. I tried to explain this to you last time but you didn't take it too well. Again, if you can't see this and would rather attribute the brain as the source, then I really have nothing more to add.
A very simple parallel is stress. In some people, stress causes a rise in blood pressure. The stress is external of the body. The effects of the stress take place internally. Now if you wanted to know about the nature of stress, would you measure the person's blood pressure and say stress doesn't exist? That's what these scientists are doing. They're taking the patient back to the lab, artificially inducing a rise in blood pressure, and saying, "Look - I raised my patient's blood pressure with electrodes - all that stress he was talking about must have been imagined."
It's insane, Jonny, and so obvious that I really cannot waste another precious moment of my life trying to convince you of it. Think for yourself, bro, and don't let titles fool you into thinking these people are brighter than you. The quran assures us that we know, and will only know, very little. This is an indictment on the limits of reason and logic. Some things are just bigger than us.
Peace,
Tay -
Last night I tried to induce my self to wake my consciousness and let my body sleep, to experience out of body. I guess i got through sleep paralysis only but not managed to separate my soul and body yet. I think this thing is possible. Just the matter of getting used to. I've never felt what my body was doing when i was sleeping. Kinda fun experiencing things that we haven't experienced yet. Imagine being awake but body is numb for 2 hours i never knew i could do that ). Can't wait to try it again tonight. I wanna give JK some proof that this thing is not just imaginary but a knowing of anything that a thought could think of. ;D
I'll do my best. pr. I pray for God's guidance and protection.
Peace
-
Peace "tay",
Peace Jonny,
It's not about whether or not we can know anything, it's about the PHd's position that he knows "all experiences derive from the brain". No matter how long one studies, or how much data they gather, if this is their premise, they are missing the point entirely. The brain is not the source of the experience, it is the vehicle through which experience occurs. I tried to explain this to you last time but you didn't take it too well. Again, if you can't see this and would rather attribute the brain as the source, then I really have nothing more to add.
JK- The brain is the source of consciusness. And this is what ive been telling you. Evidence from neuroscience shows that WE ARE OUR BRAINS. If what you claim is true then why do people who get externally stimulated by the neurologists as a test later claim that al the actions they did were out of their own free choice whilst they were all induced through magnetic or other stimulance in various brain regions. So where is your evidence coming from? Did you ever conduct a brain study by yourself and published the resuts? I know many people wish that this were not the case and that theres some other hypothetical substance called soul which controls or commands/influences the brain. But this claim lacks any evidence whatsoever.
A very simple parallel is stress. In some people, stress causes a rise in blood pressure. The stress is external of the body. The effects of the stress take place internally. Now if you wanted to know about the nature of stress, would you measure the person's blood pressure and say stress doesn't exist? That's what these scientists are doing. They're taking the patient back to the lab, artificially inducing a rise in blood pressure, and saying, "Look - I raised my patient's blood pressure with electrodes - all that stress he was talking about must have been imagined."
JK- Stress develops IN THE BRAIN. The brain can interpret either internal thoughts as stress or through the input from the five senses mostly audio/visual in this case. The brain then sends signals to the heart which causes a rise in blood pressure. I beleive ive discussed this before. All this is peprfectly natural and does by no means show the presence of a soul or another conscious non brain entity controlling ones brain.
It's insane, Jonny, and so obvious that I really cannot waste another precious moment of my life trying to convince you of it. Think for yourself, bro, and don't let titles fool you into thinking these people are brighter than you. The quran assures us that we know, and will only know, very little. This is an indictment on the limits of reason and logic. Some things are just bigger than us.
Peace,
TayJK- The problem is that your now engaging in wishful thinking. There are a lot of things bigger than us and we know that already. But as to what we do not know, how can we claim any significance in that without evidence? Why should we believe something in the absence of evidence? This is my qs. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "fadhli",
Last night I tried to induce my self to wake my consciousness and let my body sleep, to experience out of body. I guess i got through sleep paralysis only but not managed to separate my soul and body yet. I think this thing is possible. Just the matter of getting used to. I've never felt what my body was doing when i was sleeping. Kinda fun experiencing things that we haven't experienced yet. Imagine being awake but body is numb for 2 hours i never knew i could do that . Can't wait to try it again tonight. I wanna give JK some proof that this thing is not just imaginary but a knowing of anything that a thought could think of. ;D
I'll do my best. pr. I pray for God's guidance and protection.
Peace
JK- What youve experienced is well known. It's known as a lucid dream which you and others can gai control over. I myself had one in which i could aczively control my body. I visualized a car with marvellous detail and almost entered it but then the scne faded away. The brains signals are very powerful and can simulate reality. This has nothing to do with a supernatural soul. However some people claim that they can have an OBE in which they can in the real world pick up info which is otherwise hidden to their five senses. This has NEVER been demonstrated under any controlled conditions. GOD Bless!
-
Peace JK
Yes it is well known. But it is first time for me be able to control something while asleep. Good to know that you had experienced that dream I also experienced a couple of "realistic kinda feel" dreams but i just don't care about it. What i experienced is just the sleep paralysis. Kinda like the initial phase of lucid dream and OBE. I just want to verify myself whether this OBE is true or not. Hope it'll be in this short time. What i experienced is based on what i learned and practiced. I'm a designer so i got no problem in visualizing things. I managed to woke up for three times and when i came back to sleep i can make this numbness feeling come again which means i'm in control of it (i dozed off the fourth time tho P). Just need to figure out how to float up to separate. Cuz i felt like my soul got stuck to my body.
After surfing about this things, this guy had a similar experience like i did.
From defenceshit
.....so about 45mins through the numbness kicked it. i was still quite awake and aware. except that at this point you feel as if you lose definition, in the material sense, in other words, your foot is no different than your hand. just to double check, and to give assurance to any scepticism, i tried slowly moving my mouth, and a finger or two, which i did with ease, though slowly, to keep myself at that vibration. it was then that i noticed that any physical movement can bring you out of it, depending on the speed of movement, which you have to replace with time and patience. at this point i was kinda curious of what the rest of my body was upto, so i somehow was able to veiw the lower part of my torso and feet without lifting my head or opening my eyes at all. my entire body was glowing white, and everything around me was black. so it was then that i figured that something surely was going on. though the only problem there was that i didnt exactly know what to do next, so i was just boyant, floating in my body loosely for a while. i then decided that i'd give it a break and quite easily moved towards getting a drink of water, and then i just fell asleep.Lucid dream and OBE is two different things. Where LD is a dream that you felt real while OBE, you are the non-physical you with the fully aware of it. You can achieve anything that you can think of or desires in this thought responsive realm. This can also includes heavens angels demons and other weird stuff. As long as you'll stay positive, you'll be safe (that's what i understand from materials that i read). Because there, the power of thought is very powerful. Any slight thinking of our physical body will return you back (you felt like falling or thumping) and any thinking of negatives will be realized ten fold (eg thinking a ghost is chasing you, it will become a ghost that will chase you). With OBE in control, you will be in somewhat a parallel world, similar to this world. And also has access to the source, the knowledge of the universe, the past and future, anything.
I read this book about the nonphysical world. This guy had been an OBEer for 30+ years. He categories them into three kind of environments. non-consensus, consensus and neutral. He said that this consensus environment has been created by thoughts of major social group or religion. Many of these energy environments are extremely old and well established by the collective consciousness of their inhabitants. As the result, the heaven that each of us experiences after death is molded by the consciousness of its nonphysical inhabitants. In short there is a Muslim heaven, a Christian heaven and etc. Anyone who believes will be there according to what they believed when their time is up.
This is the guy responsible. P . Of course there are other authors like him. But i recommend his book. It is more scientific in approach yet simple to understand.
I consider the brain as a cache for any information that is coming from the (so called) soul to our body. So what the soul experiences is been transferred to the brain to interpret it to what we can understand. Based on our language or beliefs that we have been taught since we were born.
I want to verify it myself. ;D. Wouldn't it wonderful to be able to see God's creations on the "unseen" side? I think this thing is worth a try.
p/s Listen to him in person
Peace handshake -
The brain has two sides http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU and the Quran asks for us to utilise all of our faculties
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V26?And We had endowed them with (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect but of no profit to them were their (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect when they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and they were encircled by that which they used to mock at!
Jk - I agree with you about not chasing for things that can not be verified. But the rest of it - I just see that you are using your mind too much when you seem to be fixed on the denial of such matter.
We are evolving people of consciouness - intellect is one mode of learning and intuition may be another. To say one is better than the other is arrogance - they are simply natural attributes that co-exist - like the sun and the moon exist. The greatest minds would have both Yin and Yang consciouness fully developed within themselves and draw on them as per need. God may cause either to awaken and take precedence depending on the evovled status of the individual. Therefore we can not compel someone, only invite them to the way of balance.
In the Quran, we are required to worship, praise and pray to only one God - suggesting that we are not by ourselves alone the owners of our destiny. The intellectuals appear to not hear that straightforward message of Divinity given in the Quran.
I see the main purpose of the Quran as something calling for the bitter truths of life to be recalled which are requird for success as a 'good person'. These bitter truths can not simply be concerned about the science behind it all - about how God works - what is His nature etc or even rituals and practices. Such aspects by themselves is what is happening in the paradigm of new ageism and they are with holes as they are not practiacally the highest in morality.
Rather the message of truth in the Quran is with regards to how we were and are DESIGNED to live - in the highest and most moral way.....whether a person comes to know the science behind it all does not matter - as much as practically living the wisdom. In the day of judgement we will not be judged by how much knowledge we gained about life - but we will be weighted by our deeds that be manifest for the casue of God and not for ourselves.
The essential message is to do good works for others in society and not wrongfully harm another and not fall from the straight and simple path to the path of error/misjudgement on reality etc - the path woven by satan.
Protection is sought from God for being safe from that evil ? not simply of seeking of protection through wisdom or right conduct by the person themself in which case God would have made that only explicit in the Quran - but both modes are called upon.
Surah3 Al Imran V36?. I have named her Mary and I commend her and her offspring to thy protection from the evil one, the rejected.So those of you getting fixated as to the details - the workings of nature etc - please take heed. Following one's intellect to take precedence over all other faculties is a kind of escapism or self preoccupation or self entertainment and does very little if anything to improve the quality of life for oneself or others - in fact many people living such a life will tend to be dysfunctional. Essentially it's just another way of worshipping oneself.
Einstein was unable to take care of his basic human needs and in the later part of his life went around unkempt and in a fog of his mental persuits. Most intellectuals fall in to this way.
Fadhli - In Judaism and Christianity the development of knowledge in the unknown is the basic symbol of our seperation from God - this is the symbol of the eating of the Apple of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. The Quran says to take seriously the messages of previous scripture......do you beleive that the Quran has authorised for what you have started practicing??
The Quran advocates that the beleivers are those who beleive in the Book/s, the angels and His signs. (I don't have teh specific reference at this time)
What are His signs? ? the miracles of nature in themselves show the possibility of all things ? they all form part of the natural phenomena.
Surah 45 Al Jathiyah V3-11 Verily in the heavens and the earth, are signs for those who beleive. And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of Night and Day and the fact that Allah sends down sustencance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after it's death and in the change of the winds - are signs for those that are wise..Signs can also be divinely inspired thorught words and wisdom
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V7-8 When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, the unbelievers say, of the truth when it comes to them ?This is evident sorcery!? Or do they say he has forged it?.The signs do not need to contain additional proofs of any matter ? it is the truth of the message that be proof in itself
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V9 Say ?I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow that which is revealed to me by inspiration I am but a warner open and clear.?The unbelievers want to experience the same inspiration form themselves before they believe
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V11 The unbelievers say of those who believe ?if (this message) were a good thing, (such men) would not have gone to it before us!The unbelievers do not feel their lives are guided through themselves
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V11 ??And seeing that they guide not themselves thereby, they will say, ?This is an old falsehood!?Only those that remain firm on the path of guidance form God can expect to be guided with God?s truth as opposed to being guided to all forms of deviances
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V13 Verily those who say ?Our Lord is Allah,? and remain firm (on that path) ? on them shall be no fear, nor shall they greive.To hear the signs ? you need to engage not just the intellect but also you need to not reject what you hear, not reject what you see and not reject what you feel through your heart
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V26?And We had endowed them with (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect but of no profit to them were their (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect when they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and they were encircled by that which they used to mock at!Protection is sought from God for being safe from evil ? not simply of seeking of protection through wisdom or right conduct in itself.
Surah3 Al Imran V36?. I have named her Mary and I commend her and her offspring to thy protection from the evil one, the rejected. -
Amin74
What I found most interesting about this mans experience is what he perceived as hell. in the clip he mentioned hell as being a void of anything or non-existence. This agrees completely with Al Quran when it says that even hell will not exist forever.Actually
Surah 43 Al Zukhruf V74 The sinners shall be in the punishment of hell to dwell therein......V77 They will cry 'O Malik! Would that thy Lord put an end to us!' He will say, 'Nay, but ye shall abide
-
Peace "fadhli" and "humandesign",
You spend too much time looking for the paranormal instead of livng in the actual real world which GOD has created. The unseen parts are RIGHT HERE in our world. No need to try and venture off into fantasy land. There are so many things still to investiaget on our own planet let alone the universe. Thats what the Quran asks us to contemplate on. GOD Bless! -
JK - How dare you accuse me of chasing pranormal matters????
I am not in search of the paranormal - such matters are not part of my drive. I am in to living life the normal way.
Where on earth did you get that idea that I am chasing the paranormal when I have been trying to advocate against proceeding in such matters.Please try to listen more to what others are saying and you might find yourself also listening to life and God in general much more.
May such a request also be my prayer for you. -
Peace Jonny,
The first part of your post is repetitive and I've addressed it in detail, and in multiple ways.
You stated
The problem is that your now engaging in wishful thinking. There are a lot of things bigger than us and we know that already.
What part of my post is wishful thinking?
Your admiration of intellectuals? You've openly admitted this.
The qur'an assuring us that we know very little? It's in the book and you already agree in bold above.But as to what we do not know, how can we claim any significance in that without evidence?
We can't claim one way or the other. How can I make it any more clear? If someone experiences something that is beyond what we can explain through science, then we shouldn't bother re-shaping it into something that can be explained. That's what you keep doing.
Why should we believe something in the absence of evidence? This is my qs.
Well, if it exists, then it's there for a reason. It's to engage our spiritual side. People that have experienced it understand when others express something similar. It's the one's who have not experienced it that are creating all the fuss.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace "tay",
Peace humandesign,
A good effort, but I'm afraid anything outside the realm of science is paranormal, supernatural, hallucination, etc., to JonnyK and those he admires. I guess we're just machines that think we're something more.
Peace,
TayJK- You hit the nail on the head with this statement. We have evolved to a point where we make all kinds of ridiculous and deluded claims at certain times especially under huge stress or exhaustion as happened with Michael Shermer when he though after a long bicycle ride that hes been abducted by Aliens. I repeat for anything which has not been proven through proper controlled conditions one should not delve into such and waste time UNTIL ofcourse one is ready to offer proof. If proof to the contrary already exists then such pursuit would be even worse. GOD Bless!
-
Peace "tay",
Peace Jonny,
The first part of your post is repetitive and I've addressed it in detail, and in multiple ways.
JK- I believe i did the same.
You stated
What part of my post is wishful thinking?
Your admiration of intellectuals? You've openly admitted this.
The qur'an assuring us that we know very little? It's in the book and you already agree in bold above.JK- The part where you claim that we have an external soul which controls our brain is wishful thinking and theres evidence to the contrary as ive mentioned many MANY times. As for us knowing very little ABOUT THE UNIVERSE this is very clear. Dark energy is one example. It is not yet understood properly. Abiogenesis also still lacks quite a few details though the findings of RNA solved the puzzle to a great extent.
We can't claim one way or the other. How can I make it any more clear? If someone experiences something that is beyond what we can explain through science, then we shouldn't bother re-shaping it into something that can be explained. That's what you keep doing.
JK- In case of NDEs or OBEs being real, in the ssense that they allow one to tap into another dimension from which certain other humans too could derive similar info shoudl they tap into the same, there exists evidence to the contrary and that is that whilst one experiences such the same patterns of neuro firings in the same audio/visual regions can be seen as if they were actually shown similar things which they claqimed to have seen during such experiecnes. This should be evidence enough. Now there is always a tiny probability that evn this whole world is a matix controlled by another universe by aliens. But can we all agree that such an assumption is nonsense? I think we can.
Well, if it exists, then it's there for a reason. It's to engage our spiritual side. People that have experienced it understand when others express something similar. It's the one's who have not experienced it that are creating all the fuss.
Peace,
TayJK- The human brain does release similar hormones and triggers simlar experiences under extreme stress such as NDEs. Scienstists already know this and theres nothing spiritual about this except in a metaphorical sense. Didnt i show you the clp where scientists ran the NDE test on themselves. They expericend the very same as would anyone else with the difference that he wouldnt make the assumption of being in some spiritual world because HES ACTUALLY ONE STEP AHEAD i.e. HE KNOWS THE CAUS. GOD Bless!
-
Peace all
Quote from HD
Fadhli - In Judaism and Christianity the development of knowledge in the unknown is the basic symbol of our seperation from God - this is the symbol of the eating of the Apple of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. The Quran says to take seriously the messages of previous scripture......do you beleive that the Quran has authorised for what you have started practicing??Are you saying that "eating" the knowledge in the unknown is forbidden? What science and religion has been doing now to understand the knowledge is not "eating" the knowledge of the unknown? Since Adam we have been blessed (cursed?) with this desire to understand things, to seek the knowledge. No doubt about it. Even Quran says to verify it personally. So what i'm doing is to verify it myself. If i recall correctly, Christians sometime ago believes that earth is flat. So to believe that earth is revolving around the sun is blasphemy because Bible says earth is flat and the sun is revolving around the earth. Are you gonna be like this? Repeating history that has taught us? Quran also says it SUPERCEDES the previous scriptures. Which one do you choose? What i practiced is just techniques. It's not ritual and obviously not polytheism. I take it like learning how to ride a bicycle, or driving a car. Just need to get used to it.
What are His signs? ? the miracles of nature in themselves show the possibility of all things ? they all form part of the natural phenomena.
Surah 45 Al Jathiyah V3-11 Verily in the heavens and the earth, are signs for those who beleive. And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of Night and Day and the fact that Allah sends down sustencance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after it's death and in the change of the winds - are signs for those that are wise..I assume you define nature as everything that is on earth that is not in our control. Is that it? What about space? is that nature to you? What if this another dimension is the natural phenomena too? If this is nature too, I think i should go and to understand it. Just like i understand the creation of night and day, the winds, the trees and animals, the space, the stars, etc. Unless you want to draw an invisible line about nature to yourself, it's fine by me.
Only those that remain firm on the path of guidance form God can expect to be guided with God?s truth as opposed to being guided to all forms of deviances
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V13 Verily those who say ?Our Lord is Allah,? and remain firm (on that path) ? on them shall be no fear, nor shall they greive.Like Quran said, I want to remain firm on the path that has been given to me. I won't fear or be grieve to face this path.
To hear the signs ? you need to engage not just the intellect but also you need to not reject what you hear, not reject what you see and not reject what you feel through your heart
Surah46 Al Ahqaf V26?And We had endowed them with (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect but of no profit to them were their (faculties of) hearing, seeing, heart and intellect when they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and they were encircled by that which they used to mock at!Are you rejecting and mocking His sign? I want to see and be thankful to His signs. And to be equal in measure, i have to understand it. From this struggle (maybe it's bad, maybe it's good i don't know) i am confident that i will gain the wisdom from it.
Like we've discussed before, i don't know what you had faced that made you think that it's morally wrong or not our human nature to do this. I also don't know what i'm saying or doing is gonna eat me back or not. But what i know is that this feeling of wanting to go there is very high. And the voice in my heart is also supporting me and guiding me to go there. If this is what i should do, i'll do it. I don't want to be scared of what other people told me not to. Maybe you've had enough experiences on that part, then good for you. But that doesn't justify that you are correct.
I hope i'm not mocking anybody or being arrogant. I just felt like i had to do this. And i have made up my mind to face my inner fear.
I remember a verse in Quran about trying to penetrate the heaven. And God says penetrate it if you will but it will not be that easy. There will be trajectories that will be fired if one attempts to pass through it.
Remember what i said about consensus environment? The author said when journeying inside, there will be at some point where we will see a wall that can't be crossed. It kinda like protected. I think this is what God wants to say. With Quran as guide, maybe we can understand more about this unseen.
Peace handshake
-
Peace JK
Peace "fadhli" and "humandesign",
You spend too much time looking for the paranormal instead of livng in the actual real world which GOD has created. The unseen parts are RIGHT HERE in our world. No need to try and venture off into fantasy land. There are so many things still to investiaget on our own planet let alone the universe. Thats what the Quran asks us to contemplate on. GOD Bless!How much time is too much time? For me i just practice this OBE thing while i sleep (just started for 2 days). Not much time is wasted. Other than that i just live like usual, working reading, surfing, eating, salat etc. It doesn't effect my sleep either. It's the other way around, i felt more energized and positive. Nothing significant changes happen other than realizing there's more inside the unseen. It's not that that "time consuming" IMHO. And i think it's worth it considering many people have been wasting time searching for answers that they are not sure of.
1031 By time.
1032 The human is indeed in loss.
1033 Except those who believe, and do good works, and support one another with the truth, and support one another with perseverance.Edit
Found the verse, here it is
5531 We will call you to account, both of you beings.
5532 So which of your Lord's favors will you deny?
5533 O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.
5534 So which of your Lord's favors will you deny?
5535 He sends against both of you projectiles of fire, and of copper; so you will not succeed.And i want to add, to succeed in this journey is challenging. Depends on what your mind interpret as how much challenging is challenging. You have to be very positive, patient, open minded and believes that it's there. Just like Quran had taught us.
-
Fadhli - with regards to penetrating the the outer limits of the heavens (it is not talking about the heavens simply but is talking about going beyond it).
I came accross that exact verse about two days ago and it did make me ponder about going to the unknown. Then I came accross a verse that said we will never be able to know what is beyond the heavens and earth. This is clearly marked somewhere I will try to find it again. This then makes understanding about whta is meant by tryingt openetrate the outer heavens
But you may be wanting to merely go in to space - then if people want to go in to space - of course they are doing so already - but think about the risks - of bumping in to some alien speicies wanting to take over earth and wipe out humanity or in their trying to us to serve them instead. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I know - that would appear far stretched in our small minds - but it illustrates that what I mean by the unknown - the risk of the unknown.
And secondly it is not the highest use of ourselves - such knowledge will not stand us better in the sight of God - only doing good works is what is asked for again and again in the Quran - it is what is stressed the most. Think about it - if you had a choice between spending your resources on going in to space OR eliminating all starvation in the world which would you give priority?
I know what I think would be best in the sight of God.
I personally don't engage with the educational system that tells anyone what is what - because that is all man-made conjecture. Therefore there is no need for me to invesitgate to refute any established laws as to whether the world is flat/round or how atoms work - because I am just living by what I am seeing and feeling and comprehending for myself - not based on what others will have told me by resercing and trying to understand via theri limited brains from God's intelligence. And that what I am living by and seeing and hearing is nature for me - it does not fall in to any definition or hold boundaries - so yes your third world reality also consitute part of nature - as they are part of God's creation.
But whether the world is flat or round makes not difference to my goal of helping people and living my life in the most practical and moral way.
Fadhli - I went along that path that you have taken - I was shaken with fear and feelings of being lost - I have taken THOSE as SIGNS to mean that I should not go there and I am extremely thankful to God for putting me back on the right path (remember I was away from this Quranic path)- how thereby am I exactly mocking HIS SIGNs rather than following what God wishes for me???
Again I fear that you did not start this thread with a purity and opennes of your mind for sincere investigation but to support your need to face and chase entertainment.
-
Just going through finding some verses concerning the unseen.
This one is interesting
2765 Say "None in the heavens or the Earth know the unseen except God. And they do not perceive when they will be resurrected."
See that Heaven or Earth? why two? Without this clue those who'd venture in the heavens (maybe heaven is the other dimension they are talking about) might mistaken that it is God (some say God is the universe). Whereas
2764 The One who initiates the creation then He returns it, and He provides for you from the sky and the land. Is there a god with God? Say "Bring your proof if you are being truthful."
Only the One knows about the hereafter.
2766 No, they have no knowledge of the Hereafter. No, they are in doubt regarding it. No, they are blind to it.
Even those who are in the heavens don't know about the hereafter. Maybe the heaven is the other (multiple) dimensions that only OBEers or the deceased can access? While the unseen, only God knows it? Hmm maybe i should be careful with my words about the unseen.
If this is true, the unseen is not what our eyes can see. The unseen is something that we cannot know?
Here's some more
7226 The knower of the unseen, He does not reveal His knowledge to anyone.
7227 Except to whom He has accepted as a messenger, then He reveals from the past and the future.
7228 So that He knows that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He surrounds all that is with them, and He has counted the number of all things.What kind of messenger is messenger? According to those who had ventured in, we can also see the past and future. Only by wishing to know it. I cannot prove this. But an author Albert taylor did tried to seek his future while OBE. It did happened but he found that he cannot change his future. There's also a lot of predictions by the so called psychics about our future. See for yourselves. I'm not telling you to believe. But just observe. Maybe we can learn something.
Peace
-
......And they only guess and follow conjecture.