Quran sent for only a certain people?
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From pvb "OK, some Muslims say that only arab born Muslims are are regarded as capable of true translations, but it is no longer the word of Allah.
So only those that read Arab can understand the Quran, because the message is lost when translated.
The Holy Bible can be read by anyone in any language and it remains the True Word of GOD."
Salam,
I believe that the message of the Torah, Psalms and Injeel is also lost when translated.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
I believe that the message of the Torah, Psalms and Injeel is also lost when translated.
Salam,
ArnabOh yes, that too. I have to agree with that.
The word of man can never be the word of God.
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Have you ever heard of the Peshitta? Interesting
http//www.aramaicpeshitta.com/
That theory of Muslims still leaves out a whole bunch of people that Allah has not sent a messenger to.
Are you saying that Allah's Word becomes corrupted when written down?
"The word of man can never be the word of God."
The whole message?
"I believe that the message of the Torah, Psalms and Injeel is also lost when translated."
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Salam,
Sorry, Maybe I wasn't clear enough....
I believe that the Torah should be read in Hebrew
The Gospels (By this I mean the words of Jesus) in Aramaic
and the Psalms in Hebrew.
And of course the Quran in Arabic
I think that when any of these books out of the language it was revealed in you have "interpretations" and "a word is exchanged for a word." The original intent of the message is in danger of being lost and so often is.Yes, I have heard of the Peshitta and I think that it is an excellent resource. However, again, I do not agree with the English translation that is provided on the site.
No, I am not saying that Allah's word is corrupted when written down, only when translated into a foreign tongue other than the originally intended language.
To the best of my knowledge the prophets that we are told of in the Torah, Psalms, Injeel, Prophets, Quran etc all spoke a semitic language and all semitic languages share a common basic alphabet, structure and in most cases related definitions.
I have a theory that there may be one language and the only difference is the written alphabet and pronounciation.
This is not an original idea, mind you. Many have thought this before.
For instance
ba (B)
ya (Y)
ta (T)
in Arabic is roughly translated as "house"Beyt (B)
Yod (Y)
Taw (T)
in Hebrew is roughly translated as house
Bet (B)
Yod (Y)
Taw (T)
in Aramaic is roughly translated as houseSorry to be so simplistic....you get the point...
If you can find the common definition between the dialects,
bearing in mind that the semitic languages used Verbs (Action words) as their root, you would be on the right track to finding the true definition.Salam,
Arnab -
Arnab - What do you think of the people that say that the Quran is not actually in arabic but aramaic because of the poor grammer, words that no one understands, etc.? The fact that there are no diacritical points?
What do you think about all the unarabic words in the Quran?
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pvb,
If you sincerely seek the truth, please reflect upon and answer the following questions
What do you think of the people that say that the Quran is not actually in arabic but aramaic because of the poor grammer,
Firstly, who says that?
Secondly... grammar what develops first speech of a language or its grammar rules?
The fact that there are no diacritical points?
Like all other early Arabic scripts? or even written Arabic today? What is your point?
What do you think about all the unarabic words in the Quran?
If I say to you "I like the taste of strawberry yoghurt."
Was my sentence in English or not? Yes or No?
In case you do not get the point I am making, the word "yoghurt" is a Turkish word incorporated into the English language, yet the sentence would still be considered to be in the English language.
According to the Quran Jesus was the messanger sent to me.
Where does it say that?
That theory of Muslims still leaves out a whole bunch of people that Allah has not sent a messenger to.
What does al quran say? Have you read it?
OK, some Muslims say that only arab born Muslims are are regarded as capable of true translations...
What does al quran say? Have you read it?
So only those that read Arab can understand the Quran, because the message is lost when translated.
What does al quran say? Have you read it?
The Holy Bible can be read by anyone in any language and it remains the True Word of GOD.
So your argument is that The Bible (or any book for that matter) magicaly transcends language barriers and remains true 100%? Can you provide any evidence for your baseless statement?
When reason is against a man, the man will soon be against reason - Hume.
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Arnab - What do you think of the people that say that the Quran is not actually in arabic but aramaic because of the poor grammer, words that no one understands, etc.?
I don't think they are too far off the mark, but if they are saying ONLY what they perceive as Aramaic they will be missing a lot.
Remember that there is modern Hebrew and modern Aramaic as well as Modern Arabic in which word meanings have evolved into new meanings and sometimes even words from other languages are used. For instance modern Hebrew includes words that are European.
So there is modern Arabic in which meanings and definitions have evolved into new definitions over time.
Then there is classical Arabic in the time of Muhammad which is quite different from how we understand Arabic today. Classical Arabic is much closer to Aramaic and Hebrew if not identical (if the theory I posted earlier is correct).
Sometimes people will try to translate verses of the Quran using a combination of Classical and Modern Arabic. When this is done they sometimes find that the verses don't make sense.
I think a lot of the misunderstanding is resolved when you look at Quran verses with a knowledge of each word?s Semitic root as opposed to just Aramaic or just Hebrew. Of great importance is to also understand the Ancient Semitic pictographs or hieroglyphs of each letter.The fact that there are no diacritical points?
There are no diacritical points in the Torah or Psalms either. This diacritical thing is an added development that was added to help people learning the languages properly pronounce the words.
If one is studying root words and wants to get the purest sense of the word I would suggest ignoring these diacriticals. The main sounds were recorded when written in the Quran and Torah, Psalms etc and those sounds are the ones that we identify with a meaning. Usually the meaning is common to all semitic languages.What do you think about all the unarabic words in the Quran?
Sometimes these so-called ?un-arabic? words are actually Semitic words that aren?t common in modern Arabic and therefore after searching ONLY Arabic sources there are those who decide that the word or term is indefinable. This is when a knowledge of other Semitic dialects is beneficial to the reader.
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Arnab- I have been very interested in this topic. Ususually Muslims are very resistant to the whole idea. Have you read a Quran without the points? Could be because somewhere in the Quran - doesn't it say something about the Quran being arabic?
Do you know which verses or words of the Quran were intended to be read as aramaic/syriac? WHat do youmknow about the initial letters? ALM
How much of the message of the Quran has been distorted in translation to english? I find it interesting how different some of the translations are.
Some say that reading the Peshitta is reading the Bible written in greek translated to aramaic!
Translation from greek to english seems to have worked well for Christianity. I think I mentioned this before all our Pastors study greek hebrew aramaic in seminary. Very often in sermons the original words are mentioned and explained.
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"The original words are explained" is just not good enough, especially for islam. Unfortunately this forum is like a bunch of people who know where a gold mine is, are standing directly above it, but lack a digger. Surely understanding the language of the quran is a step in understanding the quran itself, and one word at a time does not serve as anything but a very crude knowledge.
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Arnab- I have been very interested in this topic. Ususually Muslims are very resistant to the whole idea. Have you read a Quran without the points?
I ignore the diacriticals when I analyze words in the Quran.
In other words, I essentially do read the Quran without them.Could be because somewhere in the Quran - doesn't it say something about the Quran being arabic?
Yes, there are many verses that reference Arabic . But if you look at the Word (ayin-rah-ba) from a semitic point of
view you see that the word has a different meaning than what we call ?the language of Arabic.? This gives the verses a different message all together.
Do you know which verses or words of the Quran were intended to be read as aramaic/syriac?
I don?t think that there are specific verses that are to be read differently.
I think that the WHOLE of the Quran should be read from a semitic standpoint.
This does not just mean in Aramaic.
I think that one should treat the semitic languages as one language and ?Aramaic,? ?Hebrew,? and ?Arabic? as dialects of the Semitic language as a whole.
It almost seems like so many people think that Arabic just popped out of no where as an independent language when in actuality it is a semitic language with roots in Aramaic in Hebrew.WHat do youmknow about the initial letters? ALM
I probably know as much as you do about Al-Muqattaat.
These abbreviations have been debated about for centuries.
First of all we have Al Tajweed which supposedly is the correct way to recite the Quran because it has been recited the same way through the generations just as Muhammad recited it with all the pauses and inflections preserved etc.
And in Tajweed rules the words are treated as abbreviations. We say alif lam meem not alm.Then we have the written form which treats the abbreviations as words. We see alif-lam-meem connected as a word.
So how do we treat these words/abbreviations?
I honestly don?t know.There are times that I am soooo sure that it should be interpreted as it is written (the words connected).
And, then other times that I think that the letters should be treated individually since if we are to believe tradition, the oral recitation has been preserved. Plus there is the interesting fact that each letter has a distinct meaning that is consistent through all the Semitic cultures.For instance Alif means ox, power, strength etc
Lam represents the shepard?s staff and indicates teaching direction etc
Meem means water and is also used as a suffix to indicate something that happens over and over or used as a plural.Right now (since your asking) I tend to think that we should understand these words not as letters but as words in and of themselves. I think that they were written down in their letter form instead of being spelled out.
But really no one knows for sure. Its very interesting to ponder though.
How much of the message of the Quran has been distorted in translation to english? I find it interesting how different some of the translations are.
Well all scriptures have many many translations from its original form. This is not unique to the Quran.
I think there is a very HUGE portion that is distorted and misunderstood as a result. This is true of all scripture.Some say that reading the Peshitta is reading the Bible written in greek translated to aramaic!
Actually, to be honest that could be, but I tend to think there is a good chance that since Isa spoke Aramaic and his words would have been recorded this way.
So, I support the Aramaic primacy but I do not agree with how the Peshitta is translated into English.
Let me get a little more specific why I lean this way
To accept the Gospels at all we have to use a series of arguments to get to that point- Isa did not record his words himself (as we all know)
- Isa?s disciples Matthew, Mark, Luke and John supposedly recorded the words of Isa.
- Therefore we have to believe that these disciples CORRECTLY recorded the words of Isa.
- How do we know if the disciples recorded the words correctly? We have to use this arguement If Isa is given the word and the word of Allah is protected then the disciples would have recorded the words correctly( this would mean in a semitic language). Especially since these writings have survived thousands of years therefore adding weight to this argument since obviously the words were protected.
This DOES NOT mean the TRANSLATIONS were protected. Translations are not the original word.
Translations use different words to convey what the translator perceives the meaning of the orginal word is
in order to convey a message to an audience that does not understand the original word. This leaves a lot of room for error.Plus the disciples most likely knew Aramaic themselves.
After all they studied with Isa and I would tend to think that in preserving the word of Allah, Isa most likely would have spoken a semitic language.Still this sounds a little far fetched to some.
However I will say that when you look at THE WORDS of Isa ONLY (and NOT in English-in Aramaic) you find the harmony of the words with the Quran and the Torah. Its only when you start reading what the disciples are saying that it gets jarbled up.
This is my opinion, so take it as that, please verify all information for yourself.Translation from greek to english seems to have worked well for Christianity.
Some would have you believe that.
I think I mentioned this before all our Pastors study greek hebrew aramaic in seminary. Very often in sermons the original words are mentioned and explained.
If one picks a verse from scripture and recites it in English then translates only a few key words from its semitic origins do you really think you are getting the true meaning of the verse?
This may leave you more confused then when you started and what?s worse neither the teacher nor the student will be aware of their confusion.
In essence this is perpetuating false statements without knowledge.
We are warned against this.One last thought
There are many verses of the Quran that start with ?yabani Israel? usually this is translated as ?oh children of Israel.?
The point is that the Israelites are being addressed.
Traditions tell us that there were jews who recognized what Muhammad was saying and bore witness that it was the truth. Some refused to accept Islam ultimately but some became Muslims.So if they could understand the Quran as it was recited
then it must have been recited in a language they could understand
A semitic language.
Otherwise, why address bani Israel at all unless they could understand what was being addressed to them?
This is one of the reasons why I believe that Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic are all really one Semitic language with different dialects. The differences we see today are a result of time. They are not there in the purest forms of the definitions. Learn those pure forms and you will see the harmony in all of the prophets and the one message they were trying to make us understand.
Salam, -
"The original words are explained" is just not good enough, especially for islam. Unfortunately this forum is like a bunch of people who know where a gold mine is, are standing directly above it, but lack a digger. Surely understanding the language of the quran is a step in understanding the quran itself, and one word at a time does not serve as anything but a very crude knowledge.
Salam,
qadam bi qadam akhi (roughly translatedStep by step brother)One word at a time is an excellent way to learn the semitic languages.
Then one can begin digging.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
One more point...
If Isa was also sent to bani israel then wouldn't it stand to reason that he was speaking their language? One more supporting comment on why I believe that Aramaic Hebrew and Arabic are all dialects of one semitic language and why Isa most likely spoke Aramaic
....and why I support the theory of the Aramaic primacy of the gospels.Salam,
Arnab -
I found this on wikipedia
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languageFor instance, the root k-t-b, (dealing with "writing" generally) yields in Arabic
kataba "he wrote" (masculine)
kutiba "it was written" (masculine)
kutibat "it was written" (feminine)
kitb- "book" (dash - here shows end of stem before various case endings)
kutub- "books" (plural)
kutayyib- "booklet" (diminutive)
kitbat- "writing"
ktib- "writer" (masculine)
ktibat- "writer" (feminine)
kuttb- "writers"
katabat- "writers"
maktab- "desk" or "office"
maktabat- "library" or "bookshop"
maktb- "written" (participle) or "postal letter" (noun)and the same root in Hebrew (where it appears as k-t-ḇ
katati "I wrote"
katata "you (m) wrote"
kata "he wrote" or "reporter" (m)
katteet "reporter" (f)
kattaa "article" (plural katavot ת
mita "postal letter" (plural mitaim ם
mitaa "writing desk" (plural mitaot ת
ktoet "address" (plural ktoot ת
kta "handwriting"
katu "written" (f ktua ה
hiti "he dictated" (f hitia ה
hitkatte "he corresponded (f hitkata ה
nita "it was written" (m)
nitea "it was written" (f)
kti "spelling" (m)
tati "prescript" (m)
meutta "a person on one's mailing list" (meutteet f)
ktubba "ketubah (a Jewish marriage contract)" (f) (note b here, not ḇ"For example, the root b-y- in Arabic has the meaning of "white" as well as "egg", just as in Maltese bajda means "white" (f. sing.) and also "egg", whereas in Hebrew it only means "egg". The root l-b-n means "milk" in Arabic, but the color "white" in Hebrew. The root l--m means "meat" in Arabic, but "bread" in Hebrew."
Can you figure out the root words of "ALMsyyh Raboka Al 'Azzaam"? Are root word alway just the constanants? l-m-s-h = ALMsyyh? r-b-k =Raboka? Is there a dictonary to look up the original old time meaning of the word?
Is there a book, website you would recommend for me to learn more about this? Thanks.
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Can you figure out the root words of "ALMsyyh Raboka Al 'Azzaam"? Are root word alway just the constanants? l-m-s-h = ALMsyyh? r-b-k =Raboka? Is there a dictonary to look up the original old time meaning of the word?
Is there a book, website you would recommend for me to learn more about this? Thanks.
Yeah sure?
http//users.hubwest.com/prophet/islam/koran.htm
There is a Quranic verse that states "ALM Sabbeh Raboka Al Azzaam", which translates as "ALM praise your glorified God".
The phrase is nowhere in Qur'an and the person suggesting the above is a LIAR.
2 Aliflammeem
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena3 Aliflammeem
Allahu la ilaha illa huwa alhayyu alqayyoomu7 Aliflammeemsad
Kitabun onzila ilayka fala yakun fee sadrika harajun minhu litunthira bihi wathikra lilmumineena13 Aliflammeemra tilka ayatu alkitabi waallathee onzila ilayka min rabbika alhaqqu walakinna akthara alnnasi la yuminoona
29 Aliflammeem
Ahasiba alnnasu an yutrakoo an yaqooloo amanna wahum la yuftanoona30 Aliflammeem
Ghulibati alrroomu31 Aliflammeem
Tilka ayatu alkitabi alhakeemi32 Aliflammeem
Tanzeelu alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena -
salaam,
please consider this
the Rasul is within each and everyone of us. in al-Qur'an It is referred to as Muhammad. (please do not confuse this with Muhammad the prophet.) when the Rasul in that person is fully activated, or active, the person becomes a Rasul.
usual steps
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a person ponders about God. (ponder about Ibrahim. he started by questioning God, and in the end he concluded logically about God.) a person must start by asking for guidance. guidance will not come to those who has never asked for it. so, ask God for guidance.
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Jibril reveals the guidance, by God's leave. (read 297). what Jibril reveals may be something new, or a verification for what that particular person has gathered in understanding.
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the person tries to understand the messages (if new to him) revealed by Jibril. then the person gathers an understanding, which may be correct or otherwise. the person must perform saum - refraining from speech (the person has not understood it well) and sex (a sex partner is a barrier between the person and God), best done in seclusion. thus have some respect for God. and meditate. the person must remember God with a restrained sense while God is 'teaching' or 'guiding' him.
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the Rasul then verifies the person's understanding, or reprimand the person either for doubting or doing to the contrary of what the person has gathered in understanding.
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the Rasul delivers good news and warnings. so be aware. many people have declared themselves to be prophets or rasuls, but observe the message, and disposition. there are a few verses describing the disposition of people 'adhering' the Rasul. when a person with activated Rasul delivers, the person may be referred to as Rasul (pl. rusul). at other times, the person is 'mursalin' or 'those who relate received messages'. 'mursalin' may be asked about what he/she has delivered, whether there was any addition, subtractions, defects, etc., while the Rasul will not be asked.
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a Rasul can be in timbuktu, or oslo, since the Rasul will deliver the news and warnings in a language that the person is familiar with. the safest way to experience (activating the Rasul within, or getting Jibril to start revealing, by God's leave) is by seeking guidance from God, say when some wants to know the meaning of a particular verse of al-Qur'an. when learning al-Qur'an, don't forget to ask for God's guidance first. it should be the start. and cooperate closely, and patiently. a person will only gather an understanding as much as what God has taught him. it is God's guidance we are seeking, so ask only God, or His Rasul, not human beings or jinns.
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Muhammad the Rasul within each and everyone of is the One God refers to as 'My Soul' after designing Adam, when He said, "And I breathe into it My Soul."
just care to consider. ponder. don't be too quick to conclude, either in the positive or negative. God shall hold you responsible for what you have concluded in your minds.
and btw, all this is an internal experience. the voice, if one is lucky, is within. read al-Muzzammil verse 1-4.
may God bless. peace.
joe
p.s. details on the procedures is being prepared and should be available in free-minds soon. it is a compilation of verses of al-Qur'an on how to learn with God as the Teacher. insha-Allah.
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Salam Joe,
While my understanding is not exactly as yours. It is very verysimiliar with only some minor differences.
Thank you for sharing.
Salam,
Arnab -
someone said -"All muslims KNOW that it is no longer the true message when it is translated out of Arabic", so in oder for it to be a message for all mankind wae all need to learn arabic.
Look at this translation. Why would Allah increase sin? GOD hates sin
002.010
YUSUFALI In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
PICKTHAL In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
SHAKIR There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because theyI have started a new thread- verses that may not mean what they say.
