Dual nature of Quran?
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Created and uncreated Quran. Is this mentioned in the Quran- or hadith? Are all messages from Allah created and uncreated or just the Quran?
The 10 Commandments for example
Exodus 31
18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.Deuteronomy 9
10 The LORD gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the LORD proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. -
Peace
The Quran is created.Other messages were also created.In order to make a word you in a sense create it.So the Torah and other messages were created.Also the idea that the Quran is uncreated has no basis in the Quran.Also no basis can be found for uncreatedness in the so called Hadith.Imam Bukari the complier of Sahih Bukari thought the Quran was created.In fact this is a issue from the 9th century.It was a debate between the Mutazilites and the Azarites.The idea that the Quran was uncreated became popular after Ibn Hanbal's school became popular.Also this idea was a form of protest agianst the goverment of the Abbiaseds who offically belived in the createdness of Quran.During Al Mamun reign if you denied the createdness of Quran you could be tortured or worse.So it became a popular form of rebilleion to belive in a uncreated eternal Quran.Where did you get the dual nature idea.You seem to be a sincere person.If want to learn about the Quran you should study it.You seem to have read it but not to have contemplated its verses.I hope that answers your questions
Lareb
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Created and uncreated Quran.
Good Lord, what next? This is a typical display of intellectual folly.
Rest assure, that which is not created is NOT visible to the human eye.Holy books do have two sides however. Or actually three
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they are a sign post to the truth (NOT the truth it self) to which its audience is blind.
(if they were not blind to it, there would be no need for such book) -
they must do that in a language that is palatable to its audience, yet such human language is limited in concepts to the illusion they live in and can not convey the truth that transcends it.
Just like you can not 'formulate' a beautiful sun set. You have to experience it. -
it is generally accepted that holy books are always tampered with. This is also logical because the dark forces who rule this world (very soon to end) would never allow their 'kingdom' to be undermined by pure truth.
However, religionists always exclude their own holy book from this.
I suggest here that the only book god ever wrote himself is the book of nature.
Holy books are not truth itself, but sign posts to the truth placed in the desert that is our fallen world.Anything placed in the desert, as time passes, takes on the color of the desert.
We who are born in the desert and do not know anything else have a tendency to mistake sign posts for the real thing.
We mistake the map for the (inner) territory so to speak.
We do not realize that the territory, the 'holy land' , is not part of the desert but (part of) our inner selves and instead of following its directions we believe we must hold on to the map/ sign post it self. This is bibliolatry, in my view the most dangerous form of idolatry.These are the years that Truth will be revealed (innerly) to all who are ready to receive it.
Buckets filled proudly with intellectual/scriptural knowledge can not receive.
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I had forgotten all about this thread.
Thanks LH.
I had read that Muslims believe that the Quran was eternal and so uncreated and I thought Muslims also believed that that it was created, because of the Quran did not exist until after Mohammad.
I guess it is Sunni Muslims that believe that the Quran is eternal.
I believe that GOD and His Word is eternal.
I understand your statement, but I am not sure that it is idol worship of the Bible, but some people trying to force GOD's Word to fit into their own agenda.
anders said - "We do not realize that the territory, the 'holy land' , is not part of the desert but (part of) our inner selves and instead of following its directions we believe we must hold on to the map/ sign post it self. This is bibliolatry, in my view the most dangerous form of idolatry."
Isaiah 40
8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever." -
Peace
Thanks for your response. My new name is L.Hu. Sunnies did not always believe the Quran to be eternally. Imam Bukari thought the Quran was created. But during Abbiased rule you had to believe the Quran to be created. So it became a form of political rebillion to say the Quran was eternal and one with God.
God bless
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anders said - "We do not realize that the territory, the 'holy land' , is not part of the desert but (part of) our inner selves and instead of following its directions we believe we must hold on to the map/ sign post it self. This is bibliolatry, in my view the most dangerous form of idolatry."
Isaiah 40
8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever."
That which has a beginning has an end. Even the quran can not break this law.
The word of god is what can be heard in spirit.
Anything that can be put in a book can be only a reflection of it, because it uses the limitations of a human language which in itself is totally inadequate to express the full glory of god and creation.
Therefore a book might contain a (simplified, contemporary) word of god, but can never contain the whole of it.
Unless it is a mile thick or uses not language but symbols and is written for the very few who can understand it.
Seek Truth, not books. -
"Therefore a book might contain a (simplified, contemporary) word of god, but can never contain the whole of it."
Thank you for that thought it leads me to think-maybe this is why GOD sent Jesus as His WORD in the flesh. But that also shows how sinful we are even after a living example!!
Where have I read that the true or first Quran exists with Allah in heaven?
Is the word Quran in the Quran?
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God is infinite, we are a very juvenile species.
This implies that any word from god to us is either completely incomprehensible or extremely limited and designed to become accepted.
Which again implies that seen from gods perspective any comprehensible book is actually? a load of childish B.S. comparable to that which humans give their infants.
mouse, house, cat, mommy, daddy. That level. A sobering thought.(There are however books for 'adults' but they are kept away from the masses and a source of power for the ruling elite)
I don?t think Jesus was the only historical person to have been god or his son, or any other divine entity in the flesh, but he does appear to have been the most important one who set things in motion that would ultimately lead to the new era that is being born now .
The quran confirms this, it acknowledges that it is Jesus who is going to save the world.Yes we are still sinful as you put it. That?s because even though he removed the heavenly dark force from our planet, the negative programming of humanity has its inertia and needed time to wash out. 2000 years, the Pisces era to be exact.
Yes, it is the quran it self that says the original quran is in heaven. In another verse it also explains the quran it self is a ?simple reading? of it for a specific group of people, namely for those who had not received the message (referring to the bible) yet.
Since by that time the whole area except the Arabian peninsula had by then received ?the message?, it follows that the quranic message was originally intended only for that area, Mecca and surroundings.
The quran also explains that it was formulated in harsh words because of the lamentable state of this target group, implying that more spiritually advanced peaceful peoples would receive a more friendly version. Which they did. -
Can you point me to the verse that says - ?simple reading? of it for a specific group of people, namely for those who had not received the message (referring to the bible) yet.
I keep hearing from Muslims that the Bible is only for certain people and the Quran is for all.
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Unfortunately I have disposed of all notes I made when 'doing' the quran, and I really do not wish to spend time finding things back again.
That's because I feel I am done with books and now only follow my inner guidance combined with the only book god ever wrote himself nature.
3669 gives some indication but its not the verses i was referring to.
A knowledgeable imam will know where to find it.Yeah, there is another million or so nonsensical claims that clearly show prejudice and wishful thinking.
I stand by what I said about the quran itself explaining that its target group was limited to those who had not received/accepted the word yet. That meant in those days only Mecca and surroundings. Consult your iman for the relevant verses.
About the bible and my view on it
yes, it has been tampered with extensively, for political reasons.From the bible 20 books were removed, another 25 'corrected'.
The highest teachings survived nevertheless and are there for all eyes to see.
These teachings are from Jesus himself, he who according to the quran is the one who is going to save the world (Now in progress).
From this it follows that the (truth in the) bible is most definitely for all of humanity.
But again,the bible is not the truth but its wrappings.
(The same applies to the quran, but it deals more with rules and regulation in THIS life, for a limited target group)
In conclusion, I arrive to the opposite
the quran was/is for a limited group, the bible is for all of humanity.
But at least I supply the arguments to justify my conclusion.A free-minded person should be able to find his/her own truth, THANKS TO THE FACT that books are never (meant) to be 'conclusive'....the are meant to put your mind/spirit at work and so innerly find your truth.
Books and religions are not meant to present the undiluted and pure truth to you on a silver tray.
They follow this (biblical) rule- do not throw your pearls before the swines.
And we are asked to follow those - seek and ye shall find
- ask and ye shall be given.
Thusly, the swines will only find what they seek (simple reading) and the truthful seeker will find what is hidden within it.
- do not throw your pearls before the swines.
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The Holy Bible is conclusive in that we know it is from GOD.
It is inconclusive in that we learn something new everytime we read the Bible. Our understanding grows as the Holy Spirit guides us to learn new truths.
Why allow the 4 gospels to appear inconsistant? To pique our curiosity, delve in deeper and gain a richer understanding.
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That is just a rewording of what I said in the last paragraph of my previous message. Therefore correct. peace
It does however not exclude the possibility of harmful 'corrections'.The qualifications in my previous message (prejudice, wishful thinking) might be too harsh, the misunderstanding that the quran was meant for the whole world is mainly caused by a mistranslation.
The teaching is 'islam will conquer the world'.
Here, only 4 out of 5 words are translated into english. This causes the misunderstanding.
Islam means peace (trough surrender to god)
The correct translation therefore is 'peace will conquer the world'
This is entirely correct and the core of ALL religions, esoteric teachings, astrology etc. and has absolutely nothing to do with any religion that follows this universal knowledge.If your father had named you 'islam' the same erroneous thinking could have brought you many followers expecting YOU the save the wold.
What is happening now/soon is simply an enhanced functioning of our brain as a result of an astrological event.
Planet earth is entering a part of space known as the Allen Belt. It has a much different, higher, vibratory rate that results in profound changes in our mental apparatus. This will cause us to see the deception, see what must change, understand that creation is based on love, goodness and beauty, see that aggression, fear, conquering are its destructive opposites.
.This peace of info is not in any religious book, which proofs the danger of focusing on any one of them with the exclusion of others.
Personally, I denounced christiany at early age, only to discover its more or less hidden universal truths by 'doing' oriental religions.
And without this christian/oriental back ground I could have never understood the depth of the quran.
Which does not mean that I accept any of them for the full 100%. I don't.Truth will arrive, not trough intellectual effort, but because it is divinely ordained that planet earth is now entering an enlightening part of space, causing our brain to be updated. elektro hail
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No not exactly a rewording of your beliefs - I give all credit to the Holy Spirit guiding us to the new understandings.
anders have you ever read the Gospel in aramaic? I see noharmfulo corrections in the Holy Bible. I do see harmful translations in the Quran. I have come to think of reading the Quran as a Bible study guide,
Luke 21
25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
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anders have you ever read the Gospel in aramaic? I see noharmfulo corrections in the Holy Bible. I do see harmful translations in the Quran. I have come to think of reading the Quran as a Bible study guide,
Why should I? God gave me my language. It is bibliolatrists and their likes who get lost in languages. Truth transcends language.
You are no match for the dark forces who know how to deceive.
Don't look for lies, look for slightly bent truths and half truths, for the way it is said, for what is NOT said. The total of that is more than sufficient to keep the sheeple in bondage. This is the fate of all divine messages.I have tried a couple of times to get a fair and clear denunciation of verses (149 violent ones) that are simply not acceptable any more, but the best that blind followers of the faith were able to do is mumble something vague about context.
Still without fully admitting that such 'contextual' interpretation leads to a peaceful reading though.
I'd like to see an example of such creative reading where 'kill' becomes 'do never kill' .
I've given up.There is some merit in what you say about using the quran to better understand the bible. After all, the words of the man who according to the quran will save the world (Jesus) are in it.
It must have been divine influence that saved those words from the manipulating scribes.
Unfortunately its only the free minded who would do this, not the religiously programmed. -
anders - "You are no match for the dark forces who know how to deceive."
I agree completely and must therefore depend on the Holy Spirit to guide me.
Be careful searching through nature for GOD by yourself, as you said dark forces know too well how to deceive.
I mention aramaic because when you read in aramaic and then in english, my native language the true message of the Bible comes through. There is still way too much confusion about the understanding of what is revealed in the Quran.
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I am a bit baffled by you calling the Quran confused, and as if the bible was clear. The bible isn't even referred to as a book, it is a collection of books and letters, written over a very long period of time (many hundreds of years), by a large number of people, collected and pieced together by the official clergy of a fascist state, Imperial Rome. The tone of it's books range from genocidal (Exodus) to extreme pacifism that rejects even self defense (Matthew), the divine kings and prophets range from being highly debaucherous and promiscuous, to utterly celebrate. How can you call the Quran confusing? It doesn't have a fraction of this.
All you're left with is finding one of many possible meanings in the bible, and then doing the same thing as the Sunni Muslims - claiming your own highly contentious and contradictory meaning is the only possible correct one, and denouncing anyone who disagrees as a depraved heretic. Really, what's the point?
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Yes when reading the Holy Bible you do see extremes- but each Book is written for a specific time and place in the history of man.
002.062
YUSUFALI Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL Lo! Those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.003.085
YUSUFALI If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost.
PICKTHAL And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. -
Dear All,
according to my understanding Quran is not of dual nature Nor it is created but it is sent down to a person to be delivered to the people. Now the problem comes when one tries to prove that it is from God. In that Muslims go to all means to prove it right and those who oppose do all to prove that it is not from him and this is all because of some misunderstandings created by few.
In my understanding Quran is message for Humans and not for specific group as claimed by the so called Muslims. Basic of Islam is given in verse 2-62 and that is 1. believe in one God 2. believe in final day or resurrection day. 3. do the righteousness but the problems arises when people start interpreting the signs which are unclear to give them specified meaning and that behavior starts the war.
I try to stand by the clear verses to avoid confusions. Example believing the Quran as words of God is my belief and not proof that it is the words of God. when I will try to prove it to be the word of God then the problem will start, so my strategy it to stick with my understanding but the problem with humans (me including) is that we want to prove that we are right which in other words is others are wrong.
My understanding is to understand Quran because my belief is that it is word of God. After reading Quran I reach to the conclusion that the best way to understand the complete understanding is to discuss rather than tell what is wrong or right.
To prove according to my belief that Quran is not created and sent is this
7517 it is for us to collect it and to promulgate it
7518 But when we have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated)
Regards.
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Christians have to have proof because we were warned by Jesus to beware of false prophets.
Matthew 7
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matthew 24
4Jesus answered "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.