doubting Quran
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For them to say that verse 9-29 abrogates 150 or even 200 verses I believe is a desperate attempt by the sectarian jusrist to justify conquest. The reality there is nothing in the Koran to indicate this verse abrogates nothing and the verses of the Koran suppliment, not cancel out each other. To try to create a whole religion of 6,666 verse from one verse is desperation. The reality is the Koran is clear as to what the job of the prophet is
Peace
You are right. Please note that if you make the 9-29 Decisive verse, you need to cancel out hundereds of Decisive verses. But when making 9-29 a pre-condition verse (ALLEGORICAL ), when they attack you, then you do not need to cancel out any other verses in the Quran.
God Bless -
Is this a Medina or Mecca verse?
009.029
YUSUFALI Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. -
Greetings and Peace to everyone!
Let me share some ideas.
Being sincere to what you understand is key to see truth. Be sincere to what you understand. If you sincerely verified that there's God - then be most sincere to Him - not to Books or sayings or whatever.
If you want to believe in an understanding of a holy book - then it would only be done sincerely if you can verify that the holy book is indeed from God - and the understanding/idea is "consistent with Reality = in compliance with Nature/God". (True = consistent with Reality = in compliance with Nature/God). As for those translations/understandings of verses which you can't verify as true/consistent , then "believing" it would probably be insincere.
In the physical preservation sense (like http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/koran.htm , or http//submission.org/miracle/ - there are miraculous non-man-made patterns - clear evidence - but it doesn't mean that all 19 articles/theories are true, verify for yourself what you can), I am sincerely sure that the Quran is indeed from God and preserved. But I'm not accepting all "translations/understandings/ideas" all people make from it. I try to do my best to understand/believe what can be verified and directed to me.
Many moral issues, are indeed understood/verified by a person's inner moral jundgement in different circumstances - and clearly it's not the same for everyone all the time - so it's always for God to judge.
So, are all verses talking/directed to YOU as a believer in God? Can you verify/understand all verses?
From what I learned, no and no respectively. So don't take the whole Quran (as in one's current understandings) in a "all or nothing" way.As for the physical preservation as mentioned above, yes it is preserved most compeletely until today - so you probably can learn more and more from cross-referencing, if God so wills, if you look at the context well. The preservation as a whole also lets you derive what you can't verify from what you can verify - and re-verify the consistence/harmony again.
For example. Let's consider this 929 issue.
(Yes, there's no abrogation) I would say that this is a decisive verse. And this is explained (in quranic context).
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
The people referred to in 929 could dangerously mean anyone if it is taken out of context. But if in the quranic context, especially the prophet and the believers with him that time would clearly know who this refers to.
I'm not suggesting to only find some verses to explain other verses, but I'm saying that when you read it as a story... see the context (in Quran inself surrounding verses/chapters, previous verses/chapters - see it like a long story..). And it's VERY important to see to whom the verse is talking to - To whom was God's Messenger declaring the verse to - from the previous verses/chapters. That's why the context/surrounding verses/chapters is so important (If it's taken out of context? see 446,513,541).
In this case back from Chapter 2, God is talking (via the Messenger) to the Children of Israel to accept this Message (via the Messenger which was promised as in 616). And about the warring and expelling that happened, etc... then treaties as in the starting of the chapter 9.
Many things you can understand/learn from the context - and you can possibly learn many moral lessons from them. But if it's NOT a specific instruction to YOU, then it's clearly not the real priority or important for YOU to do it or understand it, and maybe you can never find real provable evidence to understand it in harmony/consistence. Take higher priority in looking/implementing that those which are directed to you, what you should/can understand and do - because it's your own bond/salat to God (the bonds/laws - not rituals... - make you do good, away from evil).
In this case/verse 929 - I would say that it's NOT an instruction to ME, but it was directed to the prophet and the believers with him. And yes, something related to "drive them out from where they drove you out". (And yes, that "you" is not directed to ME.)
As for the why "God and Messenger" issue (it is NEVER said to "Obey God and the Prophet" - well described by brother Wakas in the "Life-guard" example.
Let me repost this excerpt from one old post also
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The Prophet and Messenger is not the same. The Messenger is the state that the prophet is speaking God's message - perfectly - so God said Obey the Messenger. Now, see 661 - why does God use the word prophet there? Because that's what the prophet did, NOT in the ROLE of the Messenger.
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Obeying God and obeying the Messenger is the same thing . We can only know what God says from the Messenger and the Messenger can only speak what God says (, ).
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The duty of the Messenger is ONLY to clearly deliver the Message , , , , . How to obey him? Obey what he ONLY does (only delivers the Message). He warns with the Quran whomever it reaches (it reached us also) . He reminds with the Quran to those who revere Gods promise .
May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane. -
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Very good post.
I might add, that as we live some ayas that said nothing to us before, may start speaking, that we evolve in our reception of the message, which is why our evaluation of the whole of it will always be limited, that shouldn't detract from our sincerity, and that if we do not get something out of an aya or of a number of ayas, we should fake it or accept any handed down convention with which in fact we do not communicate.
Salaam
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stay away from what you cannot understand .. GOD gives understanding of what HE wishes to who HE wishes. If you doubt something in the Quran ... you truly do not understand why it is there .... so just turn away from it ..... till GOD brings you back to make you understand. Do not destroy your faith with GOD by some of the things which you cannot understand in the Quran. God warns us Himself, every act of thought, sight and hearing will be questioned, so don't go where your wisdom cannot lead you.
Peace
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stay away from what you cannot understand .. GOD gives understanding of what HE wishes to who HE wishes. If you doubt something in the Quran ... you truly do not understand why it is there .... so just turn away from it ..... till GOD brings you back to make you understand. Do not destroy your faith with GOD by some of the things which you cannot understand in the Quran. God warns us Himself, every act of thought, sight and hearing will be questioned, so don't go where your wisdom cannot lead you.
Peace
So, should we stop reasoning when we read the Quran; should we stop asking the people who might have a good answer, when we do not have one; should we stop debating in order to reach the truth; or should all of us ignor good advices from people who have good knowldage in Quran.
Please, clear your post.
Thanks -
Sirohey, please
what do you understand of this verse"And those who have responded to their Lord, and they uphold the communion, and their affairs are conducted by mutual consultation among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give."
4238
what does mutual mean?
Peace
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Those who discuss the affairs around them and make a decision .. but there is always a leader who makes the final decision .... when the Messenger is there .. it is he who makes it and when there is no messenger then one has to make the final decision after due discussion .. for me it means discussion not consensus. After the arguments have been made some one has to decide. When we speak of the Quran, there can not be anything that denies anything else in the Quran, if we are overriding one verse by another than we are going to oblivion. The mutal discussion is for everyday issues and whats at hand ... and whenever we are in dispute the decision goes back to the Judgement of GOD ... i.e the Quran.
Peace
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So, should we stop reasoning when we read the Quran; should we stop asking the people who might have a good answer, when we do not have one; should we stop debating in order to reach the truth; or should all of us ignor good advices from people who have good knowledge in Quran.
Please, clear your post.
ThanksI do not mean at all that we should stop thinking, reasoning or questioning .. just that each of us is at a different level of understanding and if we reach a point that we cannot figure out, we should move on and return afterwards. Keep reading the Quran and it will eventually come ot us as Wills God.
I have now read the Quran over a 100-110 times (with thought, reasoning and the universe around me in my mind) and I can see much more than others .. so some may understand more than me and some less. I can only understand what God lets me and that applies to every created thing, including the Angels, the closest ones of God.
Peace
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I do not mean at all that we should stop thinking, reasoning or questioning .. just that each of us is at a different level of understanding and if we reach a point that we cannot figure out, we should move on and return afterwards. Keep reading the Quran and it will eventually come ot us as Wills God.
I have now read the Quran over a 100-110 times (with thought, reasoning and the universe around me in my mind) and I can see much more than others .. so some may understand more than me and some less. I can only understand what God lets me and that applies to every created thing, including the Angels, the closest ones of God.
Peace
Thank you for clarifying.
I hope you can share with us your understanding of Quran, so we can all learn from each others.
May God Bless you and increase your knowledge.Peace
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The Quranic conditions in which killing is tolerable?The decisive verses.
1- Eye for an Eye
2-178. O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.salaam
verse 2179 must be read in context. some translations
YUSUFALI In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
PICKTHAL And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil).
SHAKIR And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.the critical word in this sentence is 'hayatun' (sorry, i couldn't see the formatting tools). it is usually understood as 'life', but 'hayatun' also means 'bestiality' or 'animalistic behaviour'.
in my comprehension, the first part of 2.179 is 'And to you about 'qisas' is bestiality...." or "And to you (pl.) 'qisas' is bestiality...."
without prejudice please.
peace
joe -
salaam
verse 2179 must be read in context. some translations
YUSUFALI In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
PICKTHAL And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil).
SHAKIR And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.the critical word in this sentence is 'hayatun' (sorry, i couldn't see the formatting tools). it is usually understood as 'life', but 'hayatun' also means 'bestiality' or 'animalistic behaviour'.
in my comprehension, the first part of 2.179 is 'And to you about 'qisas' is bestiality...." or "And to you (pl.) 'qisas' is bestiality...."
without prejudice please.
peace
joePeace
If somebody killed someone intentionally, the judge has the right to sentence him to death, which what the verse prescribe; or if someone is about to kill you, you have the right to defend yourself (killing in self defense).
If you choose to let the person kill you, and not defend yourself, then it is your choice; but if you were a judge, and you chose to set a killer free from death penalty, then you committed unjust to the family of the person who was killed.That is how I interpret it.
Peace -
Peace Ayani and all
The Quran must be taken into its historical context.It is meant for you and me but also for the arabs of the prophets time.The Quran would show them the deeper signifagence of a event by mentioning it.Also sister you will notice in the Quran a immense almost allergic avoidence of mentioning names, people, and groups.Sometimes people dissiper from the actully event and instead a glimse is given of the event and the signafagence is quikly mentioned.Surah Fath.It mentions a manifest victory but what victory.One surah gives permission to the prophet to fight till injustice is no more.But who are those causing injustice and operision.I hope you understand sister. sun
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Salam ayani. There are two types of death. Death of the spirit, aazab. Death of the body, mowt.
Death of the body, mowt, is a temporary phase in mankinds evolution. Every momin tastes of mowt, this is nothing to declare as some sort of evil or wrong. Allah does no evil or wrong. Man does the evil and wrong by making a claim that mowt is a bad thing. After mowt comes yowm e qiyaamat/day of judgment, and inshallah jannat.
Death of the spirit, aazab, is a severe punishment from which there is no escape. Allah has made it very clear as to which actions will result in earning aazab. Every momin must avoid those actions which Allah has promised will result in aazab.
I apologize beforehand for the confusion of translation, the confusion arises because it is a translation. Please, I implore you resort to learning Arabic. May Allah forgive me for any errors, I intend only to assist in guiding to his path. This verse does not single out a Christian or a Jew. That is mistranslation.
The speaker in this verse is the rooh al ameen, faithful spirit, identifiable by the fact he refers to Allah in and man in the third person. The preceding two verses also refer to Allah in the third person, another indicator this is a continuation of the Rooh al ameens instructions.
Your issue with your reading of 929 is erroneous. 929 translates like this Kill those faiths which do not believe in Allah, and the ones that have no belief in the day of judgment, and those that do not forbid that which is forbidden by Allah and the messenger, and the faith that denies belief in the faith of righteousness, out of those who have been given the book, until they give a planting and are diminished.
What the faithful spirit is saying is that if any person has any belief in anything other than Allah, or if a believes the day of judgment will not arrive, or if that person does not forbid that which Allah and his messenger have forbidden, or does not believe in righteousness, then Allah instructs that faith is to be killed. Note the erroneous faith is to be killed, not a particular person. The rooh al ameen goes on to say of those who have been given the book must give a willing cultivation in their hearts of dimunition
In summary, kill all following beliefs in your heart (a) that anything other than Allah is any good for you (b) that the day of judgment wont arrive (c) that you do not forbid that which Allah and the messenger have forbidden (d) lack of a belief in righteousness. Cultivate a giving of acceptance that you are diminutive.
Allahs way is the only path to life.
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these past few days i have had a lot of doubt. as to faith, God, the Quran, religious truth... ...
i know i do not believe in the trinity, and that Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita encourages Arjuna to fight and kill for God's cause.
Blessed are those who suffer (doubt and seek) for my sake (enlightenment) for they will see the kingdom. pr
See my explanation in your topic 'perhaps I am not a muslim'You hugely misunderstand the Bhagavad Gita.
It is a description in outer language of an inner process that is the way to god.
All personages, Arjuna, Krishna etc. are parts of you. Of any human.
The carriage is your body
the arrows are your discernment
the horses are your senses
Arjuna's favorite uncle who stole his 'land' are your 'needs of the flesh' that have to be killed
Arjuna is the struggling you
Krishna (christian christ) is your inner self and only connection with your inner source, which is god, your creator.The Gita is considered widely as by far the most beautiful holy book in existence and is only part of the much greater Mahabharata that has been discovered to be fully coded and present a full and extremely detailed description of creation, creator and man.
The same applies to the personages in the Thora, they are all YOU. Aspects of you and your journey back home, back to god.
It is naive reading to understand such books to be history. They are not, they are you. (devilish tampering excepted)You disbelief in the trinity is misplaced. It is only lack of understanding that forces one to denounce this deep truth.
Only those who have traveled all the way in spirit have seen this holy truth, but are confronted with the limitation of language and the unavoidable misunderstanding of the ignorant masses whenever they speak of it.
It is really an esoteric secret that does not belong 'in the streets'.
Please refrain from such prejudice and accept that there is more to it. Leave it open and, if you wish, ASK your inner guidance to give you the understanding. -
somebody took the trouble of fast reading an unbelievable 38,000 books in search of the roots of religion and placed his findings here http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/48399/1240/#msg_48399
Lengthy messages but excellent food for the free minded.
I have barely had a year of academic physics education and I can see it for the gobbledegook that is. What a waste of 28 years, it would have been better spent working in McDonalds. Now I won't judge the author's mind but what is presented makes roughly as much sense as saying 2=0. Oh wait.
Here's an excerpt
It is understood that God and Satan is the smallest spiral possible, as the center fountain, because the smaller the spin of space, the higher is its frequency, and "higher controls the lower". Universe began in the simplest terms, that being the first curving of a portion of space (magic carpet parable), spiraling ever larger, representing one cycle of the torus and from the multiplication of the torus, by division, there was then another, representing Satan, only if it was spinning exactly as the other, thus repulsive. God/Satan, the opposing spirals, is found in the simplest beginning and also at the end because all spiralings that exist today, are exactly the same as the first spiral called Anu or God. There was only zero and another zero to begin universe. These pairs either spin exactly the same (++, - -, repulsion) or exactly opposite (+-, attraction). String Theory is based upon this pair. 10 Most religions are all about this pair. All human conflict and attraction is the play of this pair. Even the Romans noticed, in a ancient quote, "Daemon est Deus Inversus", meaning "God is daemon when on the lowest plane of existence". If you haven't noticed yet, all of us are trapped in the lowest plane of existence, for a short time. Our forward Self might ask, "If our Creations beginnings were only zero and another zero, representing God and Satan, or yin-yang, should we regard these only as spatial dynamics?"
To which I may respond
In the context of topological field theory we consider that the initial singularity of space-time corresponds to a zero size singular gravitational instanton characterized by a Riemannian metric configuration (++++) in dimension D = 4. Connected with some unexpected topological data corresponding to the zero scale of space-time, the initial singularity is thus not considered in terms of divergences of physical fields but can be resolved in the frame of topological field theory. We get this result from the physical observation that the pre-spacetime is in a thermal equilibrium at the Planck scale. Therefore it should be subject to the KMS condition. We consequently consider that this KMS state might correspond to a unification between "physical state" (Planck scale) and "topological state" (zero scale). Then it is suggested that the "zero scale singularity" can be understood in terms of topological invariants, in particular the first Donaldson invariant. Therefore, we here introduce a new topological index, connected with 0 scale, of the form Z_{beta = 0} = Tr (-1)^s, which we call the "singularity invariant". Interestingly, this invariant corresponds also to the invariant topological current yielded by the hyperfinite II* von Neumann algebra describing the zero scale of space-time. In such a context we conjecture that the problem of inertial interaction might be explained in terms of topological amplitude connected with the singular zero size gravitational instanton corresponding to the initial singularity of spacetime.
I wonder if this same dude who read 38,000 books also collected 600,000 hadeeths for us to hear a few centuries ago. Maybe he read 38,000 rolls of used high-grade Andrex toilet paper. Who knows.
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Peace
If somebody killed someone intentionally, the judge has the right to sentence him to death, which what the verse prescribe; or if someone is about to kill you, you have the right to defend yourself (killing in self defense).
If you choose to let the person kill you, and not defend yourself, then it is your choice; but if you were a judge, and you chose to set a killer free from death penalty, then you committed unjust to the family of the person who was killed.That is how I interpret it.
PeaceNo the verse thats relevant is not that. The Koran emcourages pardon when it talks about an eye for an eye. It also mention exile as a possible punishment for murder which is equivalent to jail.
Chapter 5
32. On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.-
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
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Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful
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We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
I see the verses as saying do not take another life unless he murdered but you can punish in other ways as long as its less severe than capital punishment. This verse is to counter the Judaic claim who through Talmud put a spin on it and later the Sunnis did the same.
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives. http//www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
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This doesn't make sense, in the old testament Moses orders the israelites to murder all women, children, and men on their land, and GOD in old testament says to destroy the people that hurt them when they left egypt, so how can you say Bible is nice and teaches good things when quran talks about fighting too but it was direct orders not to hurt the women or children. That's not the case in the bible