Are You a True Moslem

belH

Peace belalhammad,

Please provide proof from the qur'an that there are 5 pillars one needs to uphold to be considered a "true moslem".
In addition, please provide proof that those who do not follow these pillars are to be considered kafir.

Peace,
Tay

Salam
There are the Verses

(&#1638
How shall Allah guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust. (86-3) Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind. (87)

(&#1633
When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars. (63-1)

In these two verses, we can note that the Shahada was required from the people who came to the prophet to accept Islam. Moreover, one can ask what is the different between Jews & Christian? The answer is, the Jews do not testify that Jesus is the Prophet of God, and therefore, they rejected the Bible. And the same goes when asking what is the different between Jews, Christian, and Moslem (True Moslem)? The answer is the Testifying ?The Shahada?.

God Bless

Tay

Peace belelhammad,

There is nothing in the Quran indicates the 5 pillars to be the only conditions to be Moslem...My argument is, when one of the Moslem scholar consider me a Kaffer because I reject hadiths that cancel out the Quran, I reply to him and say " you have a hadith says that if I perform the 5 pillars, I?m Moslem"

Understood. Where I disagree is

part of the commandments in the Quran is to believe that prophet Mohamed is the Messenger of God, to Pray, pay Charity, Fasting, and Hij--these are the 5 pillar

as, you used 386-87 to make this an indictment on modern muslims as well.

These ayat speak of those who witnessed and thus believed as true the messenger of God, with clarity, yet went on to reject after having known the truth via firsthand experience. That defines a kafir.

In addition, this in no way makes belief in it incumbent upon muslims who do not fit the above criteria. If one was not witness, then one cannot bear witness. The shahada includes God alone.

Peace,
Tay

belH

Peace belelhammad,

Understood. Where I disagree is
as, you used 386-87 to make this an indictment on modern muslims as well.

These ayat speak of those who witnessed and thus believed as true the messenger of God, with clarity, yet went on to reject after having known the truth via firsthand experience. That defines a kafir.

In addition, this in no way makes belief in it incumbent upon muslims who do not fit the above criteria. If one was not witness, then one cannot bear witness. The shahada includes God alone.

Peace,
Tay

Dear Tay
As we all know, every thing we do is Halal for us except what God excluded in the Quran; thus, testifying that the Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) is the prophet of God, as well as Jesus, Moses, Ibrhim... are the Prophets of God is not Haram, ?prohibited?, or something new that was invented in the religion.
My point is, if you and the group hold the same views regarding rejecting the Shahada, there will be very minimum chance to gather audiences from the Moslem World--they will reject you.
Shahada only for the new comers who did not accept the Quran before as the words of God, and for them to accept it, they have to accept the person whom was revealed to as the prophet of God.
I know that most of us suffered from many of the traditional Islamic teachings, but we cannot let our disliking make us reject every thing, including the right teachings.
May God Bless

Tay

Peace belalhammad,

testifying that the Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) is the prophet of God, as well as Jesus, Moses, Ibrhim... are the Prophets of God is not Haram

I did not say it was haram. Your implication is that it's part of the "shadada", ie, a pillar of islam which leads to the title of the thread Are you a true moslem.

If one wants to include Muhammad or Isa or any prophet or messenger, that's fine and dandy. However, the wording and implications of this thread and the context herein differ from what you've stated above.

Nevertheless, thank you for clarifying.

My point is, if you and the group hold the same views regarding rejecting the Shahada, there will be very minimum chance to gather audiences from the Moslem World--they will reject you.

Brother, this is not a group of like-minded individuals trying to gather anyone. There are plenty of common threads but by no means are they universal here. This forum is for the free individual study of the qur'an.

I know that most of us suffered from many of the traditional Islamic teachings, but we cannot let our disliking make us reject every thing, including the right teachings.

I agree. Thus, just because it doesn't suit your understanding, it should not be written off as someone's dislike. The prudent method is to provide the evidence via al-qur'an to back up one's statements since it is the criterion and the ultimate falsifier. What makes something a "right teaching" is whether or not it stands up as truth, not whether or not it has mass appeal.

Thus, the right teaching in this case would be to say if one wants to include a prophet in their testimony, it may not be haram - depending on the level of one's devotion to that concept in direct comparison to God. The wrong teaching, according to the qur'an, would be to say that inclusion of any prophet's name is necessary to make one a true muslim.

Peace,
Tay

belH

What makes something a "right teaching" is whether or not it stands up as truth, not whether or not it has mass appeal.

Peace belalhammad,

I did not say it was haram. Your implication is that it's part of the "shadada", ie, a pillar of islam which leads to the title of the thread Are you a true moslem.

If one wants to include Muhammad or Isa or any prophet or messenger, that's fine and dandy. However, the wording and implications of this thread and the context herein differ from what you've stated above.

Nevertheless, thank you for clarifying.

Brother, this is not a group of like-minded individuals trying to gather anyone. There are plenty of common threads but by no means are they universal here. This forum is for the free individual study of the qur'an.

I agree. Thus, just because it doesn't suit your understanding, it should not be written off as someone's dislike. The prudent method is to provide the evidence via al-qur'an to back up one's statements since it is the criterion and the ultimate falsifier. What makes something a "right teaching" is whether or not it stands up as truth, not whether or not it has mass appeal.

Thus, the right teaching in this case would be to say if one wants to include a prophet in their testimony, it may not be haram - depending on the level of one's devotion to that concept in direct comparison to God. The wrong teaching, according to the qur'an, would be to say that inclusion of any prophet's name is necessary to make one a true muslim.

Peace,
Tay

Peace Brother group

Tay

Peace! peace

tarmo

Say ye "We believe, in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

...

If you believe that the Quran, The Bible, and The Old Testament are the Words of God, and contain the True Guidance that God wants for us to follow; and you respect all prophets equally without making any difference between them;

What you can read from Old and New Testament are NOT the revelations given to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord.
They (those mentioned here) have not wrote the stories you have in Bible. In Bible you have stories writen sometimes a century after the real story took place and sometimes even thousands of years later. So stories in Bible are not revelations given to them.
Bible is as hadits.

For example although to Jesus was given the Gospel, it is not in the New Testament. Instead we have stories written by others. And they wrote what they heard. They even didnt witness events happening.
See the beginning of Luke 1
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
As you see, its a hadit.

And as in case of hadits, even people who eyewitness the events happening, they do not understand the true meaning of it.
For example
Luke 321-22 ...heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove...
Quran 349 Jesus"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by Gods leave

see my point? ;D
Peace

belH

What you can read from Old and New Testament are NOT the revelations given to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord.
They (those mentioned here) have not wrote the stories you have in Bible. In Bible you have stories writen sometimes a century after the real story took place and sometimes even thousands of years later. So stories in Bible are not revelations given to them.
Bible is as hadits.

For example although to Jesus was given the Gospel, it is not in the New Testament. Instead we have stories written by others. And they wrote what they heard. They even didnt witness events happening.
See the beginning of Luke 1
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
As you see, its a hadit.

And as in case of hadits, even people who eyewitness the events happening, they do not understand the true meaning of it.
For example
Luke 321-22 ...heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove...
Quran 349 Jesus"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by Gods leave

see my point? ;D
Peace

Dear Brother
I'm 105% sure that Original Bible & The Old Testament (The Ones that written in their original language) exist and intact from getting corrupted. After all, if God knew that they will be corrupted, he would have mention that in the Quran, but instead, he asked us to approach them and believe in them as they are the Truth from him. If you set your mind that there is no Good Bible & Old Testament, you not only disagreeing with the Quran, but will not approach the Bible & the Old Testament with the right attitude. The attitude that will make you analyze the meaning of the Words in more depth.

Peace

belH

Peace belalhammad,

Thus, the right teaching in this case would be to say if one wants to include a prophet in their testimony, it may not be haram - depending on the level of one's devotion to that concept in direct comparison to God. The wrong teaching, according to the qur'an, would be to say that inclusion of any prophet's name is necessary to make one a true muslim.

Peace,
Tay

Dear Brothers
Do you say the Shahada when praying? I know that when praying, after the second Raka, we say the known ?El Tahayat???..Ashad ana Laa Elah ela Allah wa ana Mohamed Rasool Ellah? (I per witness that Allah is the only God, and Mohamed is the Prophet of God). Moreover we say it at the end of praying. Also, The known praying Azan includes the Shahada. Thus, each Moslem will have to say the Shahad more than 9 times a day.
Please, let me know your views.
God Bless

unknownuser

Dear Brother
I'm 105% sure that Original Bible & The Old Testament (The Ones that written in their original language) exist and intact from getting corrupted. After all, if God knew that they will be corrupted, he would have mention that in the Quran, but instead, he asked us to approach them and believe in them as they are the Truth from him. If you set your mind that there is no Good Bible & Old Testament, you not only disagreeing with the Quran, but will not approach the Bible & the Old Testament with the right attitude. The attitude that will make you analyze the meaning of the Words in more depth.

Peace

Salam,
I agree with one exception. I believe the part of the gospels that are to be respected are the words of Isa. I equate the teachings of Paul and the rest of the New Testament as Hadith and nothing more. And, in case you did not know this about me, I do not follow Hadith.

Salam
Arnab

TAJ

Salam Belal,

Dear Brothers
Do you say the Shahada when praying? I know that when praying, after the second Raka, we say the known ?El Tahayat???..Ashad ana Laa Elah ela Allah wa ana Mohamed Rasool Ellah? (I per witness that Allah is the only God, and Mohamed is the Prophet of God). Moreover we say it at the end of praying. Also, The known praying Azan includes the Shahada. Thus, each Moslem will have to say the Shahad more than 9 times a day.
Please, let me know your views.
God Bless

I have realized, alhamduliEllah, that my prayer is not about Muhammad; it is about my own personal link to God. Having a third party in between is, in my current understanding, plain wrong.

tarmo

Dear Brother
I'm 105% sure that Original Bible & The Old Testament (The Ones that written in their original language) exist and intact from getting corrupted. After all, if God knew that they will be corrupted, he would have mention that in the Quran, but instead, he asked us to approach them and believe in them as they are the Truth from him. If you set your mind that there is no Good Bible & Old Testament, you not only disagreeing with the Quran, but will not approach the Bible & the Old Testament with the right attitude. The attitude that will make you analyze the meaning of the Words in more depth.

Peace

6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6113 That is so the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter will listen to it, and they will accept it, and they will take of it what they will.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

tarmo

I believe the part of the gospels that are to be respected are the words of Isa.

do you believe Isa said
Mt 53"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

but Quran contrary encourage people to learn and use their minds - so not to be stupid or poor in spirit.

unknownuser

do you believe Isa said
Mt 53"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

but Quran contrary encourage people to learn and use their minds - so not to be stupid or poor in spirit.

To be poor in spirit means to be humble; modest; not proud or arrogant, etc...

Peace

belH

do you believe Isa said
Mt 53"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

but Quran contrary encourage people to learn and use their minds - so not to be stupid or poor in spirit.

Brother
I'm sure that you will find that either the translation from the original Bible is not accurate or it has another meaning.
My advice to you is to compare the Bible to the Quran, and then you will find the right meaning; as we all know, God said in the Quran that the Quran is the Book that will explain all the misunderstanding that exist in the Bible and the Old Testament.
God Bless

To be poor in spirit means to be humble; modest; not proud or arrogant, etc...
(I like that explanation)

Peace

belH

Salam Belal,

I have realized, alhamduliEllah, that my prayer is not about Muhammad; it is about my own personal link to God. Having a third party in between is, in my current understanding, plain wrong.

I agree with you 100%, brother. But saying the Shahada in praying is not haram; As we all know, praying were taught to us by our Prophet, whom was taught to pray in certain way by our God. The way of praying was taught to our ancestors until it came to us. After all the Quran did not state the way we should pray for a purpose, God only knows why? Thus, I will stick to what I learned since I was young, unless somebody will tell me otherwise from the Quran.
Peace

unknownuser

do you believe Isa said
Mt 53"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

If you re-read the quote from Belalhammad you will see that he specified

I'm 105% sure that Original Bible & The Old Testament (The Ones that written in their original language)

To this I agreed.

What you have typed above is from Matthew 53 of the New Testament as translated by King James in English which was translated from Greek which was translated from Aramaic.

So of course, I do not think that Isa said that.

I know that the original Aramaic says something quite different.

Let me show you the verse in the original Aramaic. I?m going to explain each word briefly. If you would like detailed information on each word with sources I will be happy to provide them to you. Otherwise here is the condensed version.
Since I don?t know how many people have the Aramaic font on their computers, I am going to spell out the words instead of write the Aramaic. This is to ensure that have a detailed idea of each word.

The first word is Tet-vav-beyt-yod-ha-wa-nun
The root word here is tet-vav-beyt
The short definition is to be good or to be pleasing.
The strong?s number s are 2895-2898. The meaning is very similar in Arabic.

The second word is Lamed-meem-samech-kaf-nun-alif
The root for this word is samech-kaf-nun
The meaning of this word isto be of use, be of service, be profitable
The Strong?s numbers are 5532-5533

Third word Beyt-ra-vav-khet
The root here is ra-vav-khet
The meaning is virtually unchanged in all the semitic languages to mean breathe; spirit or a variation thereof in Arabic we pronounce this rooah. When the khet is transliterated into Arabic it becomes the . And the Aramaic vav is the same as the Arabic wa.
This is the same word we see in the Quran in verse 1529

(Free-Minds translation) "So when I perfect him, and blow of My spiritin him, you shall submit to him."

Fourth word Dalet-dalet-yod-lamed-hey-vav-nun
The root of this word is dalet-lamed
This word means to be weak or helpless or lowly.
Let me give you this excerpt from The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament on the meaning of the word
0433 - dalal

Hebrew Word dalal
Strong's Cross Reference 1809, 1833,
Definition to be low, hang down. The RSV and ASV translate the same except when rendering the verbal form.

Derivative TWOT Number 433a
Derivative Transliteration dal
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 1800
Derivative Definition one who is low.

Derivative TWOT Number 433b
Derivative Transliteration dalla
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 1800
Derivative Definition I, thrum.

Derivative TWOT Number 433c
Derivative Transliteration dalla
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 1803
Derivative Definition II, poorest, lowest.

This root connotes lowness as a state or a goal. It occurs sixty-two times. Used metaphorically, the verb describe s a state of deprivation which in its extremity issues in a cry to God. It sometimes refers to physical distress (Jdg_66). The noun dalla I describes hair (Son_75 [H 6)) and thread hanging from a loom (Isa_3812). dalal is apparently applied to miners suspended by ropes (Job_284) and the legs of the lame (Pro_267) which "hang down (and nothing more)." It also describes dried up streams (Isa_196).

dal. One who is low. This root occurs most frequently in the adjectival form. Unlike 'ani, dal does not emphasize pain or oppression; unlike 'ebyon, it does not primarily emphasize need, and unlike rash, it represents those who lack rather than the destitute. We might consider dal as referring to one of the lower classes in Israel (cf. 2Ki_2414; 2Ki_2512). In dal the idea of physical (material) deprivation predominates. Compare, also, dalla denoting the opposite of fatness (Gen_4119), and the poorest and lowest of Israel whom the Babylonians left behind (2Ki_2414). Gideon cites the weakness (dal) of his clan when he questioned God's call to him to deliver Israel (Jdg_615, cf 2Sa_31). dal describes the appearance of Amnon as he pined for Tamar (2Sa_134).

dal denotes the lack of material wealth (Pro_1015) and social strength (Amo_27). Such people are contrasted with the rich (Exo_3015; Rth_310) and the great (Lev_195). God enjoins their protection (Exo_233; Lev_1421; Isa_102), and promises to them justice (Isa_114). Only infrequently is dal used of spiritual poverty (cf Jer_54), and in most cases such usages parallel ebyon, needy (Isa_1430). L.J.C.

and here is some information from Vine?s

Dal is related to, but differs from, `ani (which suggests affliction of some kind), 'ebyon (which emphasizes need), and rash (which suggests destitution). The dallim constituted the middle class of Israel?those who were physically deprived (in the ancient world the majority of people were poor). For example, the dallim may be viewed as the opposite of the rich (Exo_3015; cf. Rth_310; Pro_1015).
In addition, the word may connote social poverty or lowliness. As such, dal describes those who are the counterparts of the great "Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor" (Lev_1915; cf. Amo_27).
When Gideon challenged the Lord's summoning him to deliver Israel, he emphasized that his clan was too weak to do the job "And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh..." (Jdg_615; cf. 2Sa_31). God commands that society protect the poor, the lowly, and the weak "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause" (Exo_232-3; cf. Lev_1421; Isa_102). He also warns that if men fail to provide justice, He will do so (Isa_114).
A fourth emphasis appears in Gen_4119 (the first biblical appearance of the word), where dal is contrasted to "healthy" or "fat" "And behold, seven other kine came up after them, poor and very ill-favored and leanfleshed...." Thus, dal indicates a physical condition and appearance of sickliness. It is used in this sense to describe Amnon's appearance as he longed for Tamar (2Sa_134).
Dal is used (very infrequently) of spiritual poverty (in such cases it is sometimes paralleled to 'ebyon) "Therefore I said, Surely these are poor; they are foolish for they know not the way of the Lord, nor the judgment of their God" (Jer_54). Some scholars argue that here the word means "ignorance," and as the context shows, this is ignorance in the knowledge of God's word.
Another noun, dallah, is related to dal. Dallah, which appears about 8 times, means "poverty; dishevelled hair." The word appears in 2Ki_2414 "...none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land," where dallah emphasizes the social lowliness and "poverty" of those people whom it describes. In Son_75 the word refers to "dishevelled hair" in the sense of something that hangs down.
B. Verbs.
dalal (H1809), "to be low, hang down." This verb appears only 8 times in the Bible and always in poetical passages. It has cognates or near cognates in Arabic, Ethiopic, Akkadian, and extra-biblical Hebrew. The word appears in Psa_798 "O remember not against us former iniquities let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us; for we are brought very low."

Fifth word Hey-yod
The root of this word is hey-yod
The meaning of this word is to lament, woe
Strongs number 1958
This word could also be a variation of hey-yod-hey which means to exist, or ?be?strong?s number1961

Sixth word Meem-lamed-kaf-vav-tav-alif
The root word here is meem-lamed-kaf
This word should be easily understandable malak. This word is unchanged through out the semitic languages.
The Meaning is king, owner, possessor etc. (sometimes this word is translated as angel)

Seventh word Dalet-shiin-meem-yod-alif
If the root word is shin-meem
This word is unchanged throughout the Semitic languages to mean name appellation mark sign etc.
Most translators maintain that this root is related to the Hebrew root shiin-meem-hey which is translated as to be lofty, heaven or sky.
In Arabic when we find siin-meem-yod (remember that the shiin in Aramaic is separated into siin and shiin in Arabic) we translate it as to name call designate, nominate etc.

So a quick and hasty literal translation could be
Good/Pleasing toward usefulness with spirit because weak/helpless to lament owner/possessor that is designated/named

This is a really poor translation. And its best to learn the Aramaic to fully understand the verses.

I have tried to the best of my ability to present true and accurate statements. But please verify all information for yourself (as always). I will be happy to answer any questions.

Let me add a word of caution for those who want to quote verses from the ?bible? make sure you understand the words in the original language otherwise it is just as bad as someone who quotes the Quran only by the English translations. We know how misleading that can be.

Salam,
Arnab

Tay

Peace belalhammad,

You asked

Do you say the Shahada when praying? I know that when praying, after the second Raka, we say the known ?El Tahayat???..Ashad ana Laa Elah ela Allah wa ana Mohamed Rasool Ellah? (I per witness that Allah is the only God, and Mohamed is the Prophet of God). Moreover we say it at the end of praying. Also, The known praying Azan includes the Shahada. Thus, each Moslem will have to say the Shahad more than 9 times a day.
Please, let me know your views.

I don't know of any rakat, or inclusion of any prophets/messengers, or daily shahada-count, according to the qur'an when it comes to prayer. Here's how I pray

2186 And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.

Peace,
Tay

btw, Taj is our sister

belH

If you re-read the quote from Belalhammad you will see that he specified
To this I agreed.