Persia & Islam
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I have heard quite a few Persians say that "Islam caused demise of the Great Persian Empire". I don't know much about their history but it really just doesn't make sense. If the Persian Empire was so great and powerful, how could nomadic dessert Arabs conquer such an advanced society? Why is it that the hadith was collected by PERSIANS and not Arabs? Could it be the other way around? Could it be that the Persians were the ones who over powered the Arabs and hijacked Islam creating the Sunni/Shia sectarian religions?
-Who exactly invaded Persia?
-How many invaded Persia? -
Abdul Wadud's Conspiracies against the Quran talks about it in Chapter 3
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/conspiracies-against-the-quran.pdf
http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Wadud/AW_caq_3.htmAnd the Wikiperdia page on Muslim Conquests has a fair summary
The Islamic conquest of Persia (633?656) led to the end of the Sassanid Empire and the eventual decline of the Zoroastrian religion in Persia. However, the achievements of the previous Persian civilizations were not lost, but were to a great extent absorbed by the new Islamic polity.Most Muslim historians have long offered the idea that Persia, on the verge of the Arab invasion, was a society in decline and decay and thus it embraced the invading Arab armies with open arms. This view is not widely accepted however. Some authors have for example used mostly Arab sources to illustrate that "contrary to the claims , Iranians in fact fought long and hard against the invading Arabs." This view further more holds that once politically conquered, the Persians began engaging in a culture war of resistance and succeeded in forcing their own ways on the victorious Arabs.
As Bernard Lewis has quoted
"These events have been variously seen in Iran by some as a blessing, the advent of the true faith, the end of the age of ignorance and heathenism; by others as a humiliating national defeat, the conquest and subjugation of the country by foreign invaders. Both perceptions are of course valid, depending on one's angle of vision."
Rise of the Islamic Empire
By the time of Muhammad's death in 632, most of what is now considered Arabia was united under the new religion of Islam. However, as Fred Donner argues in his 1981 book, The Early Islamic Conquests, Arabic-speaking nomads or villagers roamed over or settled on the edge of the Syrian steppe as well. Any regime that aimed to unite all Arabs would have to conquer the Syrian steppe. Under Muhammad's successor Abu Bakr, the first caliph to Sunni Muslims, (The Shia interpretation of Islam states that Ali was the first caliph) the Muslims first re-established their control over Arabia (the Ridda Wars) and then launched campaigns against the remaining Arabs of Syria and Palestine.However, this put the nascent Islamic empire on a collision course with the Byzantine and Sassanid empires, which had been disputing these territories for centuries. The wars soon became a matter of conquest, rather than mere consolidation of the Arab tribes.
The main military commander of the Muslims, Khalid ibn al-Walid, was able to conquer most of Mesopotamia (Iraq) from the Persians in a span of nine months, from April 633 until January 634, after a series of battles. The following are some of the most significant battles fought between the Muslim Arabs and the Persians in Mesopotamia.
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Peace,
If we believe these were uncorrupted followers of the Qur'an, only 2 reasons can be given.
- Self-defense as the Persians were fighting them.
- The people were oppressed and there was no freedom of religion.
2190 Fight in the cause of God those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression. God does not love aggressors.
Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all matters of faith would be let absolutely to God , and when they desist, all hostility should cease, and no use of force is allowed except against those who commit transgression (2193)
2240 (Allah is Able to help) Those who have been evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, Our Lord is God! For, if God had not enabled some people to repel others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and Masjids, where the Name of God is oft mentioned, would have been destroyed. And God will certainly help those who help Him. God is Mighty, Powerful.
http//www.fathiosman.com/The%20Other-%20contents%20and%20sample%20chapter.pdf
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Is it quranic to invade countries??
Historians says islam was spread with the sword but that goes against quranic commandments.
Why did the early "muslim" leaders decided to invade countries and force their deen on them?
Any thoughts?
PEACE
They did breach the spirit of Al Quran in my opinion. If in its early history Islam was spread almost solely through missionary the state of Islam today would be very different. 'Our' mentality would be much less violent and more humble.
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This is just a guess based on very little things but i don't think they were corrupt.
I think that it was either self-defence or that persia was opperesive at the time. Last night my aunt told me that one of the reasons that she thinks that caused the persians to lose was that they were being oppressed thus no one was determined or motivated to fight or defend themselves.
I have no insight into this whatsoever other that the first few paragraphs of http//www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Wadud/AW_caq_3.htm
Posted by Arnold which i started reading last night
Peace
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There's an old saying - "When in Rome, do as the Romans" - meaning 'follow the customs of the world around you'. The earliest Muslims were literally in the world of Eastern Rome and the Sanassids, both very religiously intolerant empires with large professional armies. Eastern Rome had divorced from Western Rome after a string of Emperors had been murdered by the military - the "Praetorian Guard" - who were meant to be protecting them. This was not a region where religion could spread peacefully. Not at all like Indonesia, where Islam spread peacefully through trade.
Just look at the 200 years following Jesus' crucifixion. The Roman authorities set about a systematic campaign of genocide to wipe out Christians, crucifying them, burning them at the stake and feeding them to wild animals. Judea revolted twice - the first time Rome destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, the second time they ethnically cleansed Judea, killing a greater proportion of the Jewish population than the Nazis, then renamed the province Palestine, and turned the remaining Jews into a migrant people.
Once the Empire turned Christian, they set about persecuting people considered heretics - which soon meant anyone who said Jesus was only a messiah, not a God. One official of the Vatican, highest representative of the Pope, said when instructing his men on how to tell the difference between heretics and the faithful before the massacre a town of Gnostic Christians - "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius!" (Slay them all. God will know his own).
http//www.everything2.com/e2node/Slay%2520them%2520all.%2520God%2520will%2520know%2520his%2520own.
The Sanassids were a little better, but not hugely so. None of these empires allowed peaceful conversion. It really makes not a bit of difference what your ideology was in the ancient world, to quote the Roman-Syrian poet Publilius Syrus, "Necessity knows no law except to conquer".
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Once the Empire turned Christian, they set about persecuting people considered heretics - which soon meant anyone who said Jesus was only a messiah, not a God. One official of the Vatican, highest representative of the Pope, said when instructing his men on how to tell the difference between heretics and the faithful before the massacre a town of Gnostic Christians - "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius!" (Slay them all. God will know his own).
The above quote was said during the Reformation war, the Inquisition, between the Triniterian Protestants and Catholics in 1200. Islam had already established itself by then in Spain to China.
The first Catholic purging of non-Catholic thinking was done through demanding monastaries and churches to destroy any book and writing that wasn't part of the canon they had created. When this didn't had the effect they wanted, they started to make laws that made it difficult for non-Catholic Christians to live in the Empire.
Only during the Inquisition of 1100-1200 did the Catholic regime really commit mass-murder to any 'heretics'. Before that, they used mostly Roman tactics of outlawing and banishing as it took more then 150 years after the Nicea council before they had decided the Catholic doctrine in its enterity.
Not saying they were nice to non-Catholics, oh no, not at all..
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I really recommend this one
http//ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V1TyPRmZL.AA240.jpg
Islam Past, Present and Future (Hardcover)
It is a very good book on Islam, the different theories, ideas and tries to understand early Islam more as a system that was later formed into a religion. Hans Kung was the main advisor on Islam for the Roman Catholic church but was kicked out, or rather being degraded, because he acknowledged the Quran being from God and that the Trinity was a man-made doctrine. He says the Quran presents the correct picture of the early Christians.
It has everything from A-Z on Islam.
Kung's words
"There will be no peace among the nations without peace among the religions. There will be no peace among the religions without dialogue among the religions." - K?ng speaking on global ethic
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And
http//www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0826418376/sr=1-1/qid=1208790940/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1208790940&sr=1-1
Islam An Illustrated History (Paperback)
by Freeman-Grenville G. S. P. (Author), Stuart Christopher Munro-hay (Author)http//www.amazon.com/Islam-Illustrated-Freeman-Grenville-G-S/dp/0826418376/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208790940&sr=1-1
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I really recommend this one
http//ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V1TyPRmZL.AA240.jpg
Islam Past, Present and Future (Hardcover)
It is a very good book on Islam, the different theories, ideas and tries to understand early Islam more as a system that was later formed into a religion. Hans Kung was the main advisor on Islam for the Roman Catholic church but was kicked out, or rather being degraded, because he acknowledged the Quran being from God and that the Trinity was a man-made doctrine. He says the Quran presents the correct picture of the early Christians.
It has everything from A-Z on Islam.
Kung's words
"There will be no peace among the nations without peace among the religions. There will be no peace among the religions without dialogue among the religions." - K?ng speaking on global ethic
Thanks Arnold; I've got this book and looking forward to reading it, quite a big book too. I'm nearly half way through God And Man In The Quran by Toshihiko Izutsu recommended by brother Wakas and its a brilliant read. Talks about how the quran uses its own style of linguistics and to define concepts within its own use of words. Definitely a recommendation from my end and im only nearly half way through it too bravo
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Yes, I got the book too, I can also recommend Izutsu's Ethico-religious concepts in the Qur'an. I got more recommendations here
http//www.shelfari.com/ArnoldYasinMol
http//www.shelfari.com/ArnoldYasinMol/shelf#firstBook=0&list=1&sort=dateadded
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Thank You Bro Arnold Yasin to quote the following verse
?Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all matters of faith would be let absolutely to God , and when they desist, all hostility should cease, and no use of force is allowed except against those who commit transgression? (2193)
Its a command to establish a SECULAR / NON-SECTARIAN GOVERNMENT.
The early "muslims" wage war against the SECTARIAN countries to establish a SECULAR / NON-SECTARIAN GOVERNMENT.Where people can believe whatever they wishes as long as they abide to basic set of laws and regulation. Including paying taxes for the welfare of all.
A basic ingredients of modern secular country nowadays.It is ironic, since the Persians during Cyrus era also wage war against the SECTARIAN countries to establish a SECULAR / NON-SECTARIAN GOVERNMENT. He also includes freeing the Jewish slaves in Babylon as a bonus. And recorded in history as one of the oldest "Secular Government/Kingdom". Slowly this "Secular Government" evolved into "Sectarian" where Zoroastrian priest held control of the power and oppressed the non-zoroastrians (e.g. Jews, Christians, Sabians etc..)
Looks like people has an ongoing tendency towards "sectarianism"..
The priestly class is the group of people one who usually strive for it.
(As it will gives more political power to them, where in Secular government they're powerless).Just observe the today's Sunni and/or Shiah's priest.. they hate Secular Government and Countries. Always igniting people to strive toward "Establishing a Sunni/Shiah Sectarian Government" which they cleverly disguised under the label of "Establishing The Islamic Sharia".
Peace
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I 100% agree, secularism is not seperation of religion and state, it is a government system that sees ALL citizens as equals. As all religions do not see all people as equal, they had to be seperated from the government.
But the Quran is secular, people are judged on their deeds, not their beliefs, see 4913, 11117.
I have given a similair outline on my website
And in my essay on Quranic cosmology
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-e-2.pdf
The Quran is not a religious message, it is God's request urging us to be humaniterian.
This is why God asks of us at one hand to unite and be 1 people on earth, and at the same time saying most people will not be convinced the Quran is divine (6116). The onyl way to unite is under a secular system.
Interesting is that the Charter of Medina says that the Jews, Polytheists and Muslims together form one Ummah, one society, and that all are equal
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/a-short-note-on-the-medina-charter.doc
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So let me get this straight...the hadith compilers/tafsir makers were all Persian, right? And Persia was Arabia's worst enemy during/after the life of Muhammad, right?
If so, who in the freaking toilet would trust these fools? That's like Osama and Saddam establishing religion for the United States!
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?? ??? ?? I'm confused. The USA does not have a religion
He means its like an enemy setting up your religion.