To Be A Muslim
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peace belal,
Thanks for clarifying about your translation. The reason I asked was because I did not recognise it and I considered one particular part of it unusual, which I will highlight below
The word "islam" has a meaning and if translated, the above passage makes more sense.
I agree with you that a "believer" has to go further than a "submitter" but I do not agree with "the minimum conditions to be met in order to be a submitter, which include believeing and obaying God's Books" and I did not see this from the verses you referenced. Hence asking if you had read the article referenced, which you did not answer.
Dear Wakas
From reading the article that you mentioned above, I noted that the author came short in explaining (6151-152).
If you read the verses before 151, you will note that the prophet Mohamed was debating with the people of the Old Testament regarding what God had prohibited, what is Haram, in their book. At that time the Jews were following books that were written by them, in which they added more ?Haram? over what are stated in the Old Testament (the same situation that we are witnessing today with Moslem Uma). Thus, God told the prophet to say the following verses, which I quoted from the article(١ (٢ (٣
Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you
You shall not set up idols besides Him.
You shall honor your parents.
You shall not kill your unborn children from fear of poverty-We provide for you and for them.
You shall not commit gross sins, publicly or privately.
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand.
You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity.
You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means.
You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives.
You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed. (6151-152)The first commandment is ?You shall not make ?Shirk? with God?. The word ?shrik? has a meaning that most of people do not understand. People think Shrik is to ?Set up idols beside God?. My friend, Shrik is to associate with God religion what were not revealed in his three books, including idols. In Quran words,
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Say The things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; associate to Allah, for which he hath given no authority (in his books); and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge (from the books). (7-33)
In the fourth commandment, you shall not commit gross sins, publicly or privately; we have to define the Gross Sins. Gross Sins are the Sins that God mentioned in his book, such as, Zina (committing adultery), stealing, lying, transgressing, eating pork, entering houses of others without permission, and so on. In other words, any thing God included in his book.
And finally and most important, the Last commandment, fulfill your oaths to GOD.
The Oath of the people of the Old Testament was(٣
And remember We took your covenant (Oath) and We raised above you the towering height of Mount (Sinai) (saying) "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein perchance ye may fear Allah." (2-63)
Which is the same Oath that God took from the nation of Mohamed (PBUH) And they say "We hear and we obey what you have revealed in the book?.
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The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say "We hear and we obey (what in the Book); (We seek) Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." (2-285)
Also, please note that in the verses that I mentioned in my previous post (3 88-91), God indicates the punishment that will be imposed if we do not meet the minimum requirements of submission.
And let me clarify what prophet Abraham said to God regarding ?Submission?
(٧ (٨ (٩ (٠
"Our Lord! Make of us Muslims (submitters) bowing to Thy (Will) and of our progeny a people Muslim bowing to Thy (Will) and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning Most-Merciful. (2-12 "Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own who shall rehearse Thy Ayat (Verses) to them and instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, and purify them; for Thou art the Exalted in Might the Wise." (129) And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous. (2-130)
Can you note that to be a Moslem ?a Submitter? you have to submit to the Verses of the Books (The old Testament, The Bible, and the Quran). And submitting to God's laws is very easy, it is the same laws that are in the ten Commendments, plus the truth about Jesus (PBUH), the Masih.
I hope I Clearfield the misunderstanding.
Thanks
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peace belal,
NB AQ = al quran = the reading
Thanks for the response.
Firstly, I do not consider insertion of personal interpretation using brackets within a translation as good evidence. In fact, I consider it poor.
I think you have misunderstood the intention of the article when it references 6151-152. It is citing these verses because AQ is implying these are the basics, the commonalities, not what constitutes a "believer".
And finally and most important, the Last commandment, fulfill your oaths to GOD.
You acknowledge this as the most important part yet you neglect the part which immediately follows which clarifies it, shown below
You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD. These (i.e. those just mentioned) are His commandments to you, that you may take heed.
Why extrapolate further when it is clear?
Every verse you quoted as evidence, you had to extrapolate upon its message to justify "that to be a Moslem ?a Submitter? you have to submit to the Verses of the Books (The old Testament, The Bible, and the Quran). And submitting to God's laws is very easy, it is the same laws that are in the ten Commendments, plus the truth about Jesus (PBUH), the Masih." This is far too specific and problematic conceptually.
The words "muslim" & "islam" are used as common words in many occurrences. This is how people of the time primarily understood this term. Only later did they come to have strong religious connotations. Once we appreciate that nearly all (all?) terms used in AQ are not special religious words, we can appreciate their original intended meanings, thus understand the message better. For example, in your translation you said
While all creatures in the heavens and on earth have willing, or unwilling, submitted to His Will (accepted Islam)
The insertion of "Islam" capitalised distorts the meaning of the above passage. Of course creatures in the earth do not accept what is known as "Islam" (note capital "I", however, everything in the universe is in the state of islam/self-surrender/compliance/submission, willingly or unwillingly. The only difference between the unwilling and willing is in terms of acknowledgment, and this life is simply about that, who has the heart/mind/soul to acknowledge they are in submission and become in harmony with the universe/whole.
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You acknowledge this as the most important part yet you neglect the part which immediately follows which clarifies it, shown below
You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD. These (i.e. those just mentioned) are His commandments to you, that you may take heed.
"You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD" is a stand-alone commandment like the ones before. The words that came after "These are his commandments" is a closing statement from God that indicates that the previous commandments, including "You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD" are what God is ordering them to follow. (Please ask any person who understand the Old Testament if I'm right or wrong).
The insertion of "Islam" capitalised distorts the meaning of the above passage.
You are right about this, ?accepted Islam? was inserted in the translation that I quoted from, and it should not be there. ?Submitted to his will? was enough. Nevertheless, Submitting to God?s will is the core essence of the word ?Islam?.
Submitting to God?s wills means to follow his orders. Acknowledging God existence without following his orders is far from submission.
All the creatures that God created in his universe are two kinds; one kind has a choice (free-well), and the other does not. Thus, the creatures that do not have free- well are ?hardwired? to follow God?s orders, in other words, they are submitting to God?s orders ?unwillingly?.(٢
We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it he was indeed unjust and foolish (33-72)
But the Free-well Creatures are the ones who have a choice to follow God?s orders or not.
My friend allow me to give you an example of a creature who has a free-well, strongly acknowledges God existence, but chose to ?not obey God?s order?. Let me share his story with you in Quranic words (Chapter 7)(١ (٢ (٣ (٤ (٥ (٦ (٧ (٨ (٩ (٠ (١ (٢ (٣
It is We who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrated, not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. (11) (Allah) said "what prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said "I am better than he thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." (12) (Allah) said "Get thee down from this it is not for thee to be arrogant here get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." (13) He said "Give me respite till the day they are raised up." (14) (Allah) said "Be thou amongst those who have respite." (15) He said "Because thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy straight Way. (16) "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude. (17) (Allah) said "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, Hell will I fill with you all. (1 O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy as ye wish but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." (19) Then began satan to whisper suggestions to them, in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever." (20) And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser. (21) So by deceit he brought about their fall when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that satin was an avowed enemy unto you?" (22) They said "our Lord! we have wronged our own souls if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy we shall certainly be lost." (23)
From the above story, I can note that disobeying (not submitting to) God?s orders without asking for forgiveness is ?Not Good?. Moreover, Acknowledging God existence without following his orders is far from submission.
My friend, God knows we are weak when it comes to submitting to his orders, therefore, he instructed us to ask for forgiveness when we make mistakes; but if we choose to not to follow his orders and think that we do not need to, we will never ask for forgiveness, simply because we will not acknowledge our wrongdoing (as Satin did).Peace peace
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peace belal,
"You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD" is a stand-alone commandment like the ones before. The words that came after "These are his commandments" is a closing statement from God that indicates that the previous commandments, including "You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD" are what God is ordering them to follow. (Please ask any person who understand the Old Testament if I'm right or wrong).
I am unsure of the point you are trying to make with having to check with the Old Testament.
In any case, the original point of discussion was what constitutes a "believer/mumin" according to AQ. In my opinion the article is fairly clear http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/mumin.htm
The above article should also be read in conjunction with
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/thetrust.htmI do not feel you have brought any points to show otherwise.
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peace belal,
I am unsure of the point you are trying to make with having to check with the Old Testament.
In any case, the original point of discussion was what constitutes a "believer/mumin" according to AQ. In my opinion the article is fairly clear http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/mumin.htm
The above article should also be read in conjunction with
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/thetrust.htmI do not feel you have brought any points to show otherwise.
peace
Questions
Would you think acknowledging God existing without obeying his commandments is enough for anyone to be a submitter ?Moslem??
And if that the case, why God cursed Satin, even he acknowledges God existence?
Peace -
peace,
Alen I do not understand your reasoning for "First of all, The God, The Real God said that He is One and therefore He created religion, not men.", can you clarify?Peace,
Respectfully.Rajah said that man "created" religion, so i said that he did not, He did.
He, The God, gave us a certain lifestyle to win.Peace.
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peace,
belal
Please read carefully what I have said.
"muslim" / "islam" are descriptive terms first and foremost. This is 100% fact in Classical Arabic dictionaries and it is used like this in AQ itself, yet you still insist on capitalising these terms and treating them like titles, thus creating your own stumbling block
Would you think acknowledging God existing without obeying his commandments is enough for anyone to be a submitter ?Moslem??
Once you begin to treat the terms as ordinary words with an actual meaning, perhaps you will appreciate your above question is unsound. Let me clarify more simply, let's compare these two statements
I am Muslim and I break the rules.
I am compliant and I dont comply with the rules.Clearly, the latter does not make sense. Please have a think as to why.
Lastly, I did not even imply what you think I have implied with your above question. Let me re-quote myself
who has the heart/mind/soul to acknowledge they are in submission and become in harmony with the universe/whole.
Please note the underlined part.
Alen I guess it depends on what we define as religion. -
peace,
I am Muslim and I break the rules.
I am compliant and I dont comply with the rules.Peace
I?m a Submitter (Moslem), and I break the rules.
Breaking the rules and asking for forgiveness is OK.
But breaking the rules, such stoning to Death for adultery, and not asking for forgiveness because I Think I?m right is not OK, it is opposite of submission, it is not submitting to God's Commandments.
Thus, the minimum requirement for submission is to submit to the commandments of the Book (The Quran, The Bible, and the Old Testament) when you are representing the religion of God. In other words, no one can misrepresent the Religion of God differently than what is in the Book.
We cannot tell people, as stated in the article that you mentioned, that in order to be a submitter you do not need to submit to all the commandments. In other words, you do not need to ask for forgiveness when committing Adultery, stealing, eating pork, not praying, not fasting, or misrepresent God Religion (Shrik) by lying about God. The previous examples are examples of the ?Gross Sins?, which the article came short to explain.Quote from your post
who has the heart/mind/soul to acknowledge they are in submission and become in harmony with the universe/whole.
Becoming in harmony with the universe by submitting to the Laws of the Creator of the universe is the true harmony. Dealing with the universe can be more effective when implementing the teaching of the creator of the universe, simply because he knows better.
This is what I believe to the best of my knowldege is the right way.
Peace -
Peace,
Respectfully.Brother Wakas
I meant a certain lifestyle.
To me Islam and all that the God orders us in the Quran is more then just a "religion" to me, it is a life that keeps you on the path towards acheiving a better existence in a much better sphere of Life - Paradise.Eternity, immortality, peace, happiness - all these things are the things that all humans, all creatures want and yearn for, i guess we have to work hard to get to that level.
Peace.
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Peace everyone,
After doing my own research, I have also come to the conclusion that the free-minds article about "muslims vs mumins", is flawed in certain aspects, and gives a wrong overall understanding which is not in harmony with the teachings of al-quran.
The minimum requirements are given by the following
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
569 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes/trusts in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
The underlined portion above is the minimum requirement of islam/peacefulness. Doing good works alone without believing/trusting in God and the Last Day is not enough because then the absolute definition of "good works" and accountability for one's actions is missing. Good works might be different for different people depending on the people's individual perception. For example, killing a person who committed murder, without going through the legal process and two witnesses, might be "good work" for a certain person, but in absolute sense it is not really "good work".
When one believes/trusts in God and the Last Day, one will make sure to find out if one's personal perception of "good work" is in harmony with what is absolutely defined as "good work" by God, by reading God's words. One will also be more careful because of accountability for one's actions on the Last Day. This is where belief/trust in God and the Last Day comes in, in addition to doing good works. It automatically also includes "connection"/salat with God and remembering Him and believing/trusting God's words. So belief in God automatically includes upholding salat and zikr of God and believing in His aayaat. This is confirmed in al-quran because not performing salat and not remembring God and rejecting His revelations have all been clearly linked to punishment in the hereafter, so they are obligatory and included in the minimum requirements.
SALAT
7441 About the criminals.
7442 ?What has caused you to be in the scorching heat??
7443 They said ?We were not of those who connected (musalleen).?
7444 ?And we did not feed the poor person.?
7445 ?And we used to participate with those who spoke falsehood.?
7446 ?And we used to deny the Day of Judgment.?
7447 ?Until the certainty came to us.?REMEMBRANCE OF GOD
18100 And We displayed Hell on that Day to the disbelievers openly.
18101 Those whose eyes were closed from My remembrance, and they were unable to hear.5818 The Day will come when God resurrects them all. Then they will swear to Him, just as they swear to you, thinking that they actually are right! Indeed, they are the liars.
5819 The devil has overtaken them, and has caused them to forget the remembrance of God. These are the party of the devil. Absolutely, the party of the devil are the losers.Please note how islam/peacefulness is contrasted with not remembring God in the following
3922 If God opens a person?s chest to islam/peacefulness, then he will be on a light from his Lord. So woe to those whose hearts are hardened against remembering God. They have gone far astray.
GOD'S REVELATIONS
239 And those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.
627 And if you could see when they are standing over the Fire, they Say "If only we could be sent back, we would not deny the revelations of our Lord, and we would be believers!"
649 And those who deny Our revelations, the retribution will inflict them for their vileness.
6157 We will punish those who turn away from Our revelations with the pain of retribution for what they turned away.
740 Those who have denied Our revelations, and became arrogant towards them, the gates of the sky will not open for them, nor will they enter Paradise until the camel passes through the eye of a needle. It is such that We recompense the criminals.
7182 As for those who deny Our revelations, We will entice them from where they do not know.
23104 The Fire will scorch their faces, and in it their grin will be with displaced lips.
23105 "Were My revelations not recited to you, then you denied them?"
23106 They said "Our Lord, our wickedness overcame us, and we were a misguided people."
23107 "Our Lord, bring us out of it, and if we return to this then we are wicked."
23108 He said "Be humiliated therein and do not speak to Me."3016 And as for those who rejected and denied Our revelations and the meeting of the Hereafter, they shall be brought forth for the retribution.
7821 For Hell is in wait.
7822 For the transgressors it is a dwelling place.
7823 They will abide in it for eons.
7824 They will not taste anything cold in it nor drink.
7825 Except for boiling water and filthy discharge.
7826 An exact recompense.
7827 They did not expect the reckoning.
7828 And they denied Our revelations greatly.
7829 And everything We have counted in a record.
7830 So taste it, for no increase will come to you from Us except in retribution.6410 As for those who reject and deny Our revelations, they are the dwellers of the Fire; they will abide therein. What a miserable destiny!
So in summary, the minimum requirements of islam/peacefulness, for every person on Earth, whether believers, Jews, Nazarenes, or Sabians, are the following
- Belief/trust in God (automatically includes belief/trust in God's words, connecting with God and remembering Him).
- Belief/trust in the Last Day.
- Doing good/righteous works/deeds.
The people who do the above are muslims/peacemakers and could be anyone from believers/mumineen, Jews, Nazarenes or Sabians.
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peace t, all,
I do not really understand the conclusions you are drawing from what you state but perhaps a few questions will help clarify your position.
When one believes/trusts in God and the Last Day, one will make sure to find out if one's personal perception of "good work" is in harmony with what is absolutely defined as "good work" by God, by reading God's words.
What if one is not exposed to God's Words (highly possible), what does that do your theory, i.e. where does this person fall?
So belief in God automatically includes upholding salat and zikr of God and believing in His aayaat.
What about the ayaat mentioned in 4153?
This is confirmed in al-quran because not performing salat and not remembring God and rejecting His revelations have all been clearly linked to punishment in the hereafter, so they are obligatory and included in the minimum requirements.
Why not then add every reason cited for punishment in the hereafter as part of the minimum requirements? Is this your position? If it is not, then what is your criteria for determining what is included or not?
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Peace Wakas,
What if one is not exposed to God's Words (highly possible), what does that do your theory, i.e. where does this person fall?
That person's matter is with God.
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
Firstly, given the widespread presence of God's word, and the numerous messengers throughout history, it is not "highly possible" that one is not exposed to God's words, but is "unlikely". Secondly, ignorance will not be an excuse on the Last Day.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
622 And the Day We gather them all, then We say to those who set up partners ?Where are your partners whom you used to claim??
623 Then, their only excuse was to say ?By God, our Lord, we did not set up partners!?
624 See how they lied to themselves; and that which they invented deserted them.They were setting up partners but were ignorant of it. Ignorance will not be an excuse.
What about the ayaat mentioned in 4153?
4153 is about verification of God's words as the truth using God's other signs. I should have used "God's signs" instead of "God's words" in my above post, which would include "God's words" too.
Why not then add every reason cited for punishment in the hereafter as part of the minimum requirements? Is this your position? If it is not, then what is your criteria for determining what is included or not?
You are right. Every reason cited for punishment is part of the minimum requirements. You will find that all those reasons fall under the category of disbelieving/denying/rejecting/not following/violating the 3 basic requirements mentioned in 262 and 569.
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peace t,
That person's matter is with God.
Yes, but what is your position according to your criteria where they will end up? What I am trying to highlight is can they fulfill all criteria you gave except not read/hear God's words (I assume by words you mean textual revelation) and still end up in hell or punishment in hereafter?
Firstly, given the widespread presence of God's word, and the numerous messengers throughout history, it is not "highly possible" that one is not exposed to God's words, but is "unlikely".
There are millions of people worldwide who will never hear/read God's words, and if they do, will certainly have very little means to verify them from the actual text. In any case, the number is irrelevant, let's say it is one person, what is your position on their outcome.
I will put aside your so-called references to "ignorance".
4153 is about verification of God's words as the truth using God's other signs. I should have used "God's signs" instead of "God's words" in my above post, which would include "God's words" too.
Can you re-post with your clarification. Thanks.
You are right. Every reason cited for punishment is part of the minimum requirements. You will find that all those reasons fall under the category of disbelieving/denying/rejecting/not following/violating the 3 basic requirements mentioned in 262 and 569.
And did you do this research and check it before you formed your conclusion?
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Peace Wakas,
I have already answered all your questions. It is no use repeating what I have already said.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.
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There are millions of people worldwide who will never hear/read God's words, and if they do, will certainly have very little means to verify them from the actual text. In any case, the number is irrelevant, let's say it is one person, what is your position on their outcome.
Peace all
497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged their souls; they said ?What situation were you in??, they said ?We were oppressed on Earth.? They said ?Was God?s Earth not wide enough that you could emigrate in it?? To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
498 Except for those who were oppressed from the men, women, and children who could not devise a plan nor could be guided to a way.Salam
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peace t,
I have already answered all your questions. It is no use repeating what I have already said.
No you have not, as I asked a new question and for you to re-post your view with the clarification you admitted it needed.
peace belal,
Thanks for posting those verses which are in favour of my view. -
peace t,
peace belal,
Thanks for posting those verses which are in favour of my view.Peace Wakas;
You welcome; but you have to understand that if ones are exposed to God's words, they will not be execused from not following (not rejecting)the book guidences.
And as I said before, that is the minimum of being Moslem, which the artical failed to address.
May God lead us all to the path of the ones who will be saved in JD.
Peace -
Alen I do not understand your reasoning for "First of all, The God, The Real God said that He is One and therefore He created religion, not men.", can you clarify?
Peace,
Respectfully.There was nothing behind this sentence, i was just saying what i wrote, honestly.
I hope it was not misunderstood.Glory be to our God,
Glory be to our God.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas;
You welcome; but you have to understand that if ones are exposed to God's words, they will not be execused from not following (not rejecting)the book guidences.
And as I said before, that is the minimum of being Moslem, which the artical failed to address.
May God lead us all to the path of the ones who will be saved in JD.
Peacepeace belal,
It may seem it failed to address that point, but maybe it is because "muslim" has nothing to do with The Quran.
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peace belal,
It may seem it failed to address that point, but maybe it is because "muslim" has nothing to do with The Quran.
Peace Wakas,
Thank you for your reply; I agree with you that the majority of the so called Moslem today are using the Quran for reading and not guidance. But, Free-Minds should show the truth in their Articles; after all, many people are using your articles for guidance.
May God Bless
Salam
