Can we make contact with the dead
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Salam,
Why would you want to make contact with the dead?
If it is to ask them spiritual questions and for guidance, then in my opinion, that is shirk. You should be looking to God for that.
If it is to inquire about their condition (ie are they happy, sad, where are they heaven or hell etc) I would say it doesn't matter because their dead and no matter the answer you can't change it and you should focus on your own where your own soul will end up.
If it is to resolve a murder case or to find out specifics about how they died or their thoughts as they died. I would say if God wanted you to know, then, you would know. And you wouldn't have to commit shirk by seeking guidance from the dead or the person who you entrust to contact the dead.
The whole idea of contacting the dead is preposterous in my opinion. IF God had wanted us to communicate with them he would have given us detailed instructions on how to do so. But in fact we are warned against such practices.
Anyway you look at it, the idea of talking to the dead benefits no one. Wait, I take that back it benefits the charlatans who charge money to people who go to them to contact the dead. And then it is only a monetary benefit. It does not benefit their soul.
I would suggest putting the energy anyone wants to use to contact the dead into studying scripture and focusing on God.
Salam,
Arnab -
Just to add to what arnab says there's also no proof what you are ebing told by the charlatans is true. It's no suprise they only give very vague information and not specifics. They only guess and use a technique called "cold reading" I believe which James Randi exposed with a known worldwide tv figure who does these readings on tv.
I believe there is a verse in the Quran that says theres a barrier between us and the dead so the question of making contact with the dead is useless.
PEACE
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peace all
i think you're talking about 23100, but ok there's a barrier that prevents them from coming back here... but there is no mention of a barrier preventing us from going there, right?
can't that be achieved with having an obe, leaving this body which is the barrier(imo) and going there to the astral world which is said to be a place where dead people go to also. perhaps we can go there and talk to them,... or maybe i'm just crazy, lol -
3514 If you call on them, they cannot hear you. Even if they hear you, they cannot
respond to you. On the day of resurrection, they will reject your idolatry. None can inform you like an
Ever-aware.Done
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peace
3514 If you call on them, they cannot hear you. Even if they hear you, they cannot
respond to you. On the day of resurrection, they will reject your idolatry. None can inform you like an
Ever-aware.Done
i don't think that's talking about dead people and contacting them, read 3513
3513 He merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
3514 If you call on them, they cannot hear you. And even if they hear you, they cannot respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will reject your idolatry. And none can inform you like an Expert.we wouldn't 'call on them', just talk to them )
Peace
Sounds like Necromancy to contact the dead, but why do so, what shall they inform you of, some hidden knowledge?
Joe
well i'd ask them what's it like there, to describe the place they're in, there's some hidden knowledge i'm interested in )
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peace
i don't think that's talking about dead people and contacting them, read 3513
3513 He merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
3514 If you call on them, they cannot hear you. And even if they hear you, they cannot respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will reject your idolatry. And none can inform you like an Expert.we wouldn't 'call on them', just talk to them )
I agree with Arnold. Actually, the verses are non specific. So, anyone you call on besides God cannot hear you or respond, etc etc.
That would include "the dead" or statues or what ever else a person may call on besides God.
well i'd ask them what's it like there, to describe the place they're in, there's some hidden knowledge i'm interested in )
If you are meant to acquire this knowledge God will give it to you. But I would suggest asking him for it.
Salam,
Arnab -
peace
'call on them' in that verse is meant like if one would be idolizing them, i'm not talking about idolizing these dead people but contacting them same as you'd contact a human alive in this world and ask him/her for something. like if you call your teacher at school and ask him/her something, same thing.
If you are meant to acquire this knowledge God will give it to you. But I would suggest asking him for it.
hmm, how exactly does God help? how would He give me the knowledge?
there is one way i'd like, to hear His voice directly, but isn't there a verse in the quran that says something about when people asked for an angel to come to them and the response was that only regular humans came to deliver the message... (something like that, hope you know what i mean).
but yes you are right, asking God for it, i'm not saying otherwise, just that perhaps one of the ways He may help, give knowledge is by sending a messenger or a person who's not alive in this world... who knowsremember that joke about the guy drowning and another guy comes in a boat to help him and the drowning guy says no thanks he'll wait for God's help...
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Where is your proof that it means "idolizing them"?
It is clear from other verses that god is our sustainer and giver of knowledge; dead people cannot help in either of these cases.
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peace
'call on them' in that verse is meant like if one would be idolizing them, i'm not talking about idolizing these dead people but contacting them same as you'd contact a human alive in this world and ask him/her for something. like if you call your teacher at school and ask him/her something, same thing.
This is absurd. You will only be contacting your own imagination.
And, as OPF pointed out...
Where is your proof that it means "idolizing them"?Quote from Arnab on Today at 100620 AM
If you are meant to acquire this knowledge God will give it to you. But I would suggest asking him for it.hmm, how exactly does God help? how would He give me the knowledge?
This argument is actually an argument you usually hear from Atheists not Muslims.
That question alone suggests to me that you don't believe that God can help you or give you knowledge in any case.
Anything I say you will refute.there is one way i'd like, to hear His voice directly, but isn't there a verse in the quran that says something about when people asked for an angel to come to them and the response was that only regular humans came to deliver the message... (something like that, hope you know what i mean).
So now you're admitting that his message only comes from people who are alive?
but yes you are right, asking God for it, i'm not saying otherwise, just that perhaps one of the ways He may help, give knowledge is by sending a messenger or a person who's not alive in this world... who knows
Well I do not remember reading where we are to ask the dead for guidance. In fact, I can show you verses like the ones listed in this thread where we are to Call on God alone. So, in my opinion the idea of calling on the dead is a waste of time.
remember that joke about the guy drowning and another guy comes in a boat to help him and the drowning guy says no thanks he'll wait for God's help...
Yes, I know the joke. But in the joke the guy was given real life oppurtonities to be rescued. (A helicopter, rescue boat, and this varies depending on the version of the joke you hear). He was not sitting there trying to summon the dead which would not offer him a way out of his situation if he did.
Salam,
Arnab -
This is absurd. You will only be contacting your own imagination.
how do you know that?
This argument is actually an argument you usually hear from Atheists not Muslims.
That question alone suggests to me that you don't believe that God can help you or give you knowledge in any case.
had no idea it suggests that,
also, why can't that question be asked by a muslim?, what about young muslims who don't know much and would like to learn, what, they can't ask certain questions? how will they learn?Well I do not remember reading where we are to ask the dead for guidance. In fact, I can show you verses like the ones listed in this thread where we are to Call on God alone. So, in my opinion the idea of calling on the dead is a waste of time.
huh? who is talking about guidence?
i'm talking about talking to them same as talking to you.
and i see 'calling on them' as idoltary, but 'contacting them' as trying to have a nice conversation, i contact my friends by phone and we talk, i don't ask them for guidence (don't know why we're talking about guidence), we just talk, i'd do the same with dead ones... just contacting them wouldn't be by phone.and with my limited knowledge i always thought God helps in many different ways, one of those ways is sending humans, like sending a human to deliver the message from Him to us.
but this is different, i'm not talking about asking dead ones for help or guidence or anything like that, but to just talk to them. -
peace
i don't think that's talking about dead people and contacting them, read 3513
3513 He merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
3514 If you call on them, they cannot hear you. And even if they hear you, they cannot respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will reject your idolatry. And none can inform you like an Expert.we wouldn't 'call on them', just talk to them
well i'd ask them what's it like there, to describe the place they're in, there's some hidden knowledge i'm interested in
I knew you were gonna say this. 3514, on the Day of Resurrection. So the ones called on besides God mentioned in these verses should be humans, real existing people. Please tell me, if the real existing people that are seen as idols cannot hear us. Why should other dead people do hear us?
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Insert Quote
Quote from Arnab on Today at 110030 AM
This is absurd. You will only be contacting your own imagination.how do you know that?
Because it has never been proven that humans can contact the dead either scientifically or other wise to the best of my knowledge.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 110030 AM
This argument is actually an argument you usually hear from Atheists not Muslims.That question alone suggests to me that you don't believe that God can help you or give you knowledge in any case.
had no idea it suggests that,
also, why can't that question be asked by a muslim?, what about young muslims who don't know much and would like to learn, what, they can't ask certain questions? how will they learn?I didn't say it couldn't be asked by a Muslim. I was pointing out that generally you don't hear Muslims ask this question.
Usually, when a person starts asking questions like
"hmm, how exactly does God help? how would He give me the knowledge?"
after someone tells the person to seek guidance from God, it indicates a doubt in the person's mind as to if God actually does help at all.That's true young and new Muslims usually have questions to this nature it is part of the learning process.
I could give you a list of Quran verses, but it may be more beneficial to you to search the Quran yourself for the answers on this particular question. would suggest you search the Quran for times when God answered questions or prayers or gave knowledge to someone.
Quote from Arnab on Today at 110030 AM
Well I do not remember reading where we are to ask the dead for guidance. In fact, I can show you verses like the ones listed in this thread where we are to Call on God alone. So, in my opinion the idea of calling on the dead is a waste of time.huh? who is talking about guidence?
i'm talking about talking to them same as talking to you.
and i see 'calling on them' as idoltary, but 'contacting them' as trying to have a nice conversation, i contact my friends by phone and we talk, i don't ask them for guidence (don't know why we're talking about guidence), we just talk, i'd do the same with dead ones... just contacting them wouldn't be by phone.I understand what you are saying.
If you think about the questions you would ask, you will see that even though you don't think you are asking for guidance, you're questions would mostly be of that nature.
You may want to write down the questions you would ask and look at them objectively.Salam,
Arnab -
peace all
i think you're talking about 23100, but ok there's a barrier that prevents them from coming back here... but there is no mention of a barrier preventing us from going there, right?
can't that be achieved with having an obe, leaving this body which is the barrier(imo) and going there to the astral world which is said to be a place where dead people go to also. perhaps we can go there and talk to them,... or maybe i'm just crazy, lolI believe astral projection or OBE is possible and a whole different universe and laws altogether. Nevertheless I stick to the Quran as my criterion(furqan) and what your saying isn't supported from my studies so far. To be honest it is something I need to look into further but contacting the dead etc from my reading of the quran isn't supported. This would then imply those people that see dead people in astral world would be "virtual" characters like virtual reality.
PEACE
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peace all
Please tell me, if the real existing people that are seen as idols cannot hear us. Why should other dead people do hear us?
well if you're talking about idols, that's different, if i idolize some human he/she will not hear me, my calls, of course, but, if i want to talk to a human being, like friends, just conversing, then they would hear me, because they do have hearing ability. but i wouldn't idolize these dead people, just talk to them, if it's possible to make contact with them of course.
If you think about the questions you would ask, you will see that even though you don't think you are asking for guidance, you're questions would mostly be of that nature.
they would? hmm, 'what's it like there?' 'what do you do there?' ... that's asking for guidence? didn't know that.
I believe astral projection or OBE is possible and a whole different universe and laws altogether. Nevertheless I stick to the Quran as my criterion(furqan) and what your saying isn't supported from my studies so far. To be honest it is something I need to look into further but contacting the dead etc from my reading of the quran isn't supported. This would then imply those people that see dead people in astral world would be "virtual" characters like virtual reality.
PEACE
virtual characters? did not know that.
just heard experiences from other people. -
Salam Nerspi,
I have a Sufi story for you
A certain respected thinker and teacher had written a book on astrology. Some people said that he must be a magician or insane; others believed that this action had shown that there was truth in astrology.
Ultimately a dervish who had travelled many miles to see the sage asked him about the problem, saying, ?Surely astrological work is inconsistent with the Path of the Wise , and the Work of the Elect??
The sage answered
?I make absolutely sure that all my pupils study my book on astrology. In this way they are able to understand that astrology does not work.
When they are completely skilled in the art, I make them interpret horoscopes.
These we compare, and we always find such discrepancies in interpretation, when properly tested, that it becomes self-evident that the system is useful only for imaginings.?
The visitor said
?Could you not simply tell them that astrology is not a true science, as others do??
?Firstly, said the sage, ?If the telling had been effective when done by others, who would still believe in astrology?
When did telling equal understanding?
Secondly, when you have thoroughly investigated one superstition, you are unlikely to be able to sustain or adopt another.?
?So it was not astrology in particular which you seek to dispose of??
No, Astrology is one of the easiest absurdities to study, because its practitioners have allowed themselves to be pinned down to rules?
-From ?Thinkers of the East? by Idries ShahMy point is that many of us have told you our opinions on contacting the dead to which you always have an argument.
If studying ?the art of contacting the dead? is what you seek, then I suggest you study it.
My suspicion is that you will begin by trying to prove us wrong
and then eventually come to the understanding of those of us who say it is a waste of time.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Nerspi,
I have a Sufi story for you
A certain respected thinker and teacher had written a book on astrology. Some people said that he must be a magician or insane; others believed that this action had shown that there was truth in astrology.
Ultimately a dervish who had travelled many miles to see the sage asked him about the problem, saying, ?Surely astrological work is inconsistent with the Path of the Wise , and the Work of the Elect??
The sage answered
?I make absolutely sure that all my pupils study my book on astrology. In this way they are able to understand that astrology does not work.
When they are completely skilled in the art, I make them interpret horoscopes.
These we compare, and we always find such discrepancies in interpretation, when properly tested, that it becomes self-evident that the system is useful only for imaginings.?
The visitor said
?Could you not simply tell them that astrology is not a true science, as others do??
?Firstly, said the sage, ?If the telling had been effective when done by others, who would still believe in astrology?
When did telling equal understanding?
Secondly, when you have thoroughly investigated one superstition, you are unlikely to be able to sustain or adopt another.?
?So it was not astrology in particular which you seek to dispose of??
No, Astrology is one of the easiest absurdities to study, because its practitioners have allowed themselves to be pinned down to rules?
-From ?Thinkers of the East? by Idries ShahThis is a good sufi story. Do you know of anymore like these from other sufis or even idries shah??
PEACE
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Salam 2Pac-Notts,
If you are interested in Sufi stories a good starting place is Idries Shah's books. He usually has a variety of stories from different authors. If you are more interested in classic Sufi poetry you might try the sacred texts website http//www.sacred-texts.com/isl/index.htm (You'll have to scroll down to the bottom for the Sufi Texts)
Most of Inayat Khan's lectures and writings are online here http//wahiduddin.net/hik/hik_origins.htm
This is also a really good link for Sufi literature http//www.omphaloskepsis.com/collection/index.html
You can also find Rumi's work in Farsi and Arabic online if you do a basic google search.
Enjoy!
Salam,
Arnab