How could you ?!!

Fajr

Why would you reject ALL hadiths . You don't reject many things in the history , why do you reject it all hadiths ?!!!

Bigmo

Why would you reject ALL hadiths . You don't reject many things in the history , why do you reject it all hadiths ?!!!

In the meantime, ?Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, ?Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, ?Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah?s Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, ?By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah?s Book,? and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah?s Book ?O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.? Then (unrelated)

2
Narrated Ibn ?Abbas

Umar said, ?I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, ?We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,? and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession.? Sufyan added, ?I have memorized this narration in this way.? ?Umar added, ?Surely Allah?s Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him.?

4
Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said

Umar said to me ?How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?? I said, ?72 or 73 verses.? He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning.

5
Ayesha

?When the verses ?Rajm? and ayah ?Rezah Kabir? descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning.?
Another translation goes

The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.

A goat! rotfl

Wakas

peace,

I reject hadiths that contradict and/or are inconsistant with The Quran. The traditional hadith are like The Bible, you need a superior text to verify the content, i.e. The Quran. They are a mix of truth and falsehood.

No hadith is obligatory, i.e. compulsory, a fact, 100% truth... only God's Word can be these things.

To read about the history of hadith/sunna within Islam, see here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm

Fajr

Bigo
I agree with you , I'm not saying that all hadith and all the history is correct and autheintic , but rejecting everything is what I'm objecting to .

Fajr

Wakar
Does that mean you accept some hadiths and reject some ? That's not what Quran Muslim only do , they reject it all . I look at hadiths the same way you're saying , it's like the bible we can't accept it all and in the mean time we can't reject it all .
If the hadith was proved to be authentic , like been narrated and written in so many hadiths books so why can't we say it is an obligation to follow it .

Prince

Wakar
Does that mean you accept some hadiths and reject some ? That's not what Quran Muslim only do , they reject it all . I look at hadiths the same way you're saying , it's like the bible we can't accept it all and in the mean time we can't reject it all .
If the hadith was proved to be authentic , like been narrated and written in so many hadiths books so why can't we say it is an obligation to follow it .

I can't speak for everyone but I speak for myself. I reject it all as a SOURCE OF LAW. The Al-Quran says its fully detailed and enough as a source of law so I use Al-Quran as a criteria and then look at whatever information I need to look at.

There is some wisdom in hadiths as with any collection of books but I think most people reject it in totality as a source of law for our deen.

PEACE

Fajr

2Pac - Notts
I understand what you're saying . But if you accepted some hadiths as a source of wisdom then you still accepting and agree with hadith . It all depends on the authenticity of the hadith whether it is a law hadith or a wisdom hadith.

Prince

2Pac - Notts
I understand what you're saying . But if you accepted some hadiths as a source of wisdom then you still accepting and agree with hadith . It all depends on the authenticity of the hadith whether it is a law hadith or a wisdom hadith.

I personally see Al-Quran laying down principles so we've got to be careful what we take as a source of law as it may contradict Al-Quran hence why I stick to Al-Quran for guidance.

PEACE

unknownuser

Salam Farj welcome

Personally i don't reject all hadith that is written. Actually i accept hadith that does not contradict Quran, history or science. But what i don't accept is that hadith should give us laws outside the laws that exist in Quran. The only religious book of laws should be Quran in my opinion. But there are off course truths in hadith like other summaries of history. What i don't accept is that hundreds of hadiths contradict Quran, and therefore i can't accept hadiths as flawless or infallible. besides, as we know, god tells us in the Quran, that the Quran is complete and detailed, and that we should not follow any other book outside the Quran for religious guidance or laws.

Below i will quote some parts of a past text i wrote to someone else here on the forum

I want to give you some information about the history of hadith.

Did you know that all the Hadith-collecters were Persian, and that zoroastrianism was irans biggest religion at the time when Islam came to iran? Here is some information about the Hadith-Colllectors and the history of hadiths.

As you know, shia and sunni Imams/sheykhs claim that hadith should be accepted as divine and set laws for us, and that Hadith is announcedas a undivideable part of islam. 6 different versions of Hadith collections are considered to be the most authentic versions by the sunni muslims, and is called "Sahaa Sitaa". Shia muslims have their own collections and they are all different from the hadiths of sunni's.

A little about the history of hadith

First i want to talk about our Prophet, Prophet Muhammed

The history tells us that Prophet Muhammed was born year 570, and died 8.june year 632 in medina. He died 10 years after Hijrah.

I want to mention what Hijra is

Hijra is an arabic term for the Prophets emigration from Mecca to Medina in year 622, which establish the starting point of the Islamic time. With other words, the islamic time started year 622.

Lets start with some important facts

These 6 Hadith-Versions/collections came with the following titles

Sahih Bukhari
Sahih Muslim
Tirmidhi
Abu Dawud
Ibne Maja
Nisaayee

Introductions to the authours above

Imam Bukhari
He was born year 256 in Hijra, and some people say he was born year 260 (Hijra is the islamic calender as mentioned earlier). We know that Bukhari died in Khartank. It was said that after wandering through different towns and villages, he collected as much as 600 000. and after having grading them, he found 7300 ahadiths that he assumed was authentic. These are repeated in various chapters. If we don't take the repetions, the total number is 2630 or 2762.

He is mostly known as Bukhari, Al-Bukhari or Imam bukhari, and he is know to be a Sunni Islamic scholar of persian roots. With other words, bukhari was originally Iranian/Persian.

Imam Muslim
Muslim bin Hajaj came from a city in iran, called Nishapoor. He was born in year 204 in hijra and died 261.

Tirmidi
Imam abu isa Muhammed Tirmidhi was from a city by the name Trimz in Iran. He was born in the year 209 in hijra. amd died year 279 hijrah.

Abu Dawud
Imam abu dawud, came from Seestan in iran. He was born in year 202 hijra, and died year 275 hijra.

Ibne Maja
Abu Abdullah Muhammed bin zai, ibne Maja comes from a city iran by the name Kazdin. He was born hijra 209, and died year 273 in hijra.

Imam nisaayee
Imam ABdur Rahma Nisaayee comes from a city in iran Nisa in the eastern province of Khorasan. He died year 303 in Hijra.

Some Opinions

After a good introduction to these religious scholars/academicians, we can see that all of them wee iranians. None of these Scholars were of arabic origin. We must also note thaarabs don't have prepared themselves of what these scholars had done. And that is because all of these academicians/scholars were born 200-300 year after prophet Muhammeds died.

Another question that comes to mind is; all the ahadiths are only heard, they are not written down in an earlier archive until the collections of the Imams came.
From these thousands of hadiths that are collected, only a few thousand of them are seen as authentic, while most of them are discarded. The criteria for the Hadith-collectors was their own personal Judgments.
None of these Authours were being inspired by God when it comes to which ahadith that should be discarded, and which of them that should come in "the golden collection". Neither Prophet Muhammed was there to approve the hadiths of the muslims, since hadith was collected 200-400 years after Muhammeds death. With other words, there are no proofs that showes us that Prophet Muhammed has approved the Hadiths to be authentic.
Again, there was no earlier record/archive where the material could have been "loaned" from an archive and worked with. All the ahadiths, went from mouth to mouth, from city to city, village to village.

Important things

After personal judgment we can see that some ahadiths were wrote down, and other were thrown away/discared.

-How can someone based on ahadith which are stories told from mouth to mouth and from ear to ear collection, gove proofs that these are Prophet Muhammeds exact words?

Not the fact that these words are not give from a father to a son, or a teacher to a student, as memories

It would be stupid to not show people what the number of collected and discarded hadiths.

Ahadith authors founded ahadith collected in their Hadith-collections

Imam bukhari, Found 600 000, Only 2,762 collected, the rest was Discarded

Imam muslim, Found 300 000 Only 4348 collected, the rest was Discarded

Imam trimzi, Found 300 000 Only 3115 collected, the rest was Discarded

Imam abu daw, Found 500 000 Only 4800 collected, the rest was Discarded

Imam abu Maja Found 400 000 Only 4000 collected, the rest was Discarded

Imam nisai, Found 200 000 Only 4321 collected, the rest was Discarded

Mathematical calculations of collected and Discarded hadiths
Imam Bukhari Collected less than 0,5 % that was authentic,og discarded over 99,5%

Imam Muslim Collected less than 1,5 % authentic, and discarded over 98,5 %

Imam Tirmidhi Collected a lil bit over 1 % that was authentic, and discarded 99%

Imam Dawud Collected under 1 % that was authentic, and discarded over 99%

Imam abu Maja Collected exactly 1% authentic hadiths, discarded exactly 99%

Imam Nisai Collected a collected over 2% authentic hadiths, discarded over 97%

Conclusion

As we can see above, the Imams discarded over 98-99% of all the hadiths they collected. They claimed that all these were not authentic, and were false. Totally they colleced only 1-2 % of the hadiths, and claimed this was authentic. That means that only 1-2 % of the hadiths that were found was collected into the HADITH-COLLECTIONS.

The first thing that comes to our mind is; how can we be sure that all these authors did not throw away/discard the right ones, because the majority of hadiths that actually are written down as authentic, contradicts/violates Gods-word in the Quran. And what about all the hadiths that contradicts other hadiths, contradicts reason, contradicts science, history and many other things?

From the results of the research above, we can easily see that the collection and teachings of Prophet muhammed, was nothing but an individual struggle without no guarantee from God or approval of muhammed.

It has been discussed that we are lucky that we had people like Bukhari to make a collection like this. Some Scholars even go further and claim that 1/10 of the knowledge is in Quran, while the rest 9/10 is in the Hadith-collections. Its is not hard 2 understand why the 9/10 of the muslim people constantly are in war wich each other in the middle east.

When God tells us in the Quran that the system of deen is complete, and after this, can we even a moment, just a moment imagine that Prophet Muhammed would leave a so important part of his knowledge to the mercy of destiny?

If you want to know more about the history of Hadiths and to see 100's of the false hadiths, visit this link

http//www.submission.org/had-corruption.html

Peace,
David

belH

2Pac - Notts
I understand what you're saying . But if you accepted some hadiths as a source of wisdom then you still accepting and agree with hadith . It all depends on the authenticity of the hadith whether it is a law hadith or a wisdom hadith.

Salam;

Do not accept hadiths according to authenticity only, but according to it?s agreeing with the Quran. In other words, if the hadith confirms the Halal and Haram, The Hodood, the description of the Unseen (God, angels, the Judgment Day), which are included in God?s book (the Quran, The Bible, and The Old Testament), then it is OK to accept. But if the hadith was inventing a new thing that will cancel out a Quranic verse (like the stoning hadith), or adding a new description about the Unseen, then accepting it will lead to ?Shrik? and disbelieving Quran Verses.
Peace

Fajr

To David

Thanks alot , your reply is very good actually . Sometimes I wonder how Muslims before collecting ahadiths were living without it , surely they didn't need it . If we assumed that many fabricated ahadiths were there then how could they distinguish between the false and the authentic one ?!!

If immam Muslim found one hadith where the prophet is prohibiting writing his sayings ,why that didn't keep him from writing and collecting them ?!!

Fajr

TO belalhammad

Thanks to you , how about salat ? It is not haram or halal ? Many other details in salat like the menstruated should she pray or fast or not . Sleeping does it nullifies your ablution? That is in ahadith yet it is not haram or halal .
Many other details one would want to know the answer to it but he can't find it in the Quran . For example if the woman is having vaginal discharges does that nullifies her ablution or not ? Many other questions the ahadiths only actually answer it .

unknownuser

Why would you reject ALL hadiths . You don't reject many things in the history , why do you reject it all hadiths ?!!!

The best way to deal with a problem/issue is to break it down to its simplest element.

Name only one hadith story you are certain is 100% authentic to be considered...

Alif-Lam-Meem.
This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

Therefore, be very careful answering attributing partners to God ? that is severe!

Peace

Wakas

Fajr, please re-read what I wrote. My approach is very simple. The Quran itself allows us to look at sources of information out with it, however to make a leap and use external sources as divine or obligatory is very very dangerous.

Personally, I have not found one thing in The Quran where I have had to refer to the ahadiths for it to make sense to me.

Fajr

To Wakas
I understand what you're saying but also the Quran is saying to follow prophet Muhamed , does that order applies to the people who were living during his time only ?!!

nerspi

peace all

TO belalhammad

Thanks to you , how about salat ? It is not haram or halal ? Many other details in salat like the menstruated should she pray or fast or not . Sleeping does it nullifies your ablution? That is in ahadith yet it is not haram or halal .
Many other details one would want to know the answer to it but he can't find it in the Quran . For example if the woman is having vaginal discharges does that nullifies her ablution or not ? Many other questions the ahadiths only actually answer it .

again with salat, huh? hehe, i knew this conversation was heading there.
anyway, i can ask for details about salat too, which are not in the quran or hadith.
like,
where can i do it, can i do it in front of my bedroom door, infront of a balcony window, behind my computer table, next to my stereo...?
on what should i do it, on a carpet, on a rug, on a polyester or cotton material, on a table, on my bed...?
how should i do it? should i hop to my praying place on 1 leg, on both legs, should i walk on my toes, should i nod my head up and down throughout salat, should i clap my hands, may i have a drink during it, may i chew a chewing gum during salat, may i keep my hands in my pockets while standing, may i stand sideways facing right, left, up, down...?
what should i wear? all black clothes, white, yellow, green, do i have to have a suit on, should i wear summer clothes, winter clothes, may i wear sunglasses...?

Prince

Salam;

Do not accept hadiths according to authenticity only, but according to it?s agreeing with the Quran. In other words, if the hadith confirms the Halal and Haram, The Hodood, the description of the Unseen (God, angels, the Judgment Day), which are included in God?s book (the Quran, The Bible, and The Old Testament), then it is OK to accept. But if the hadith was inventing a new thing that will cancel out a Quranic verse (like the stoning hadith), or adding a new description about the Unseen, then accepting it will lead to ?Shrik? and disbelieving Quran Verses.
Peace

Just to add to this comment of yours I've highlighted in bold Each generation will have different understanding of Al-Quran obviously the laws to govern society will remain in essence as they are so they won't change. But using hadith or any other book to understand Al-Quran concepts ike God, Angels etc and make that the ONLY book like "traditional muslims" claim it to be will result in regression and not progression in human thinking.

PEACE

Prince

To Wakas
I understand what you're saying but also the Quran is saying to follow prophet Muhamed , does that order applies to the people who were living during his time only ?!!

Al-Quran never quotes to follow Prophet Muhammed but follow the messenger. It's no coincidence in Allahs words why that is. I believe if you do a search in this forum there's enough posts explaining how the obedience is linked only to the message - Al-Quran not the human being(bashr).

PEACE

unknownuser

Fajr wrote
Thanks alot , your reply is very good actually . Sometimes I wonder how Muslims before collecting ahadiths were living without it , surely they didn't need it . If we assumed that many fabricated ahadiths were there then how could they distinguish between the false and the authentic one ?!!

If immam Muslim found one hadith where the prophet is prohibiting writing his sayings ,why that didn't keep him from writing and collecting them ?!!

Well, brother, i think they could distinguish between the fabricated/Fake hadiths. This is actually the reason why one of the muslims that were one of the most advanced societies, met their downfall when they was fooled into following fabricated unscientific, unquranic and unhistoric teachings. Many historicans and people who have studied islam, has come to the conclusion that the Islamic empire was at its best when they followed only the Quran. After 200 years after our dear Prophet Muhammeds death, people started to replace Quran teachings with Hadith teachings, and then slowly Islamic countries from being most scientific and righteous( full ofhuman rights), slowly became some of the most backwards countries in the world, with little to no human rights. I know it sounds shocking, and trust me, i was on of the first persons to doubt the new understanding. But God gave us a brain so we should use it, i said to myself. And i knew that the human brain is 40 000 times more advanced than the most advanced computer existing in world today according to scientists. And God created intelligent life, and gave us intelligent brains. If we were supposed to follow all the unscientific, unintelligent, and unhistoric hadiths that also contradict the quran, violaten humanrights etc, then what makes us our brain different from a chicken brain or the brain of a sheep. This was questions i asked myself. And i kept on searching the truth, and did not accept anything unless people would show me proofs. Still today, after one year of finding Monotheism, Islam by "God alone", i still don't accept everything. For instance me and most people that follow God alone, don't believe in code in the Quran, at least i am unsure about the code for the moment. I have learned that if something should be accepted, it must either be accepted scientifically, Logically, or through other proofs, and the proofs used for code 19 is not solid (Is weak).

Anyway, when i first found Islam by Quran aloen, i had many unansweard questions. But i kept on reading and reading every article i found in free-minds.org and rationalreality.com etc, and prayed to God to show me the right way. If it is one thing i have learned best in my life, and gained most from, it is Patience. They key to all answears is Patience. Patience and keeping on searching.

This is a good and interesting questions.
I think Imam muslim like every other Imam, priest, sheykh etc, would make mistakes. All humanbeings would make mistakes. Not always with intention dough. Imam muslim might have thought that collecting those hadith-hearsays was the right thing to do. Besides, he was iranian and maybe everything he knew from Islam would be from hadith, because from what i know, persians could not read and write Classical arabic (The Quran's language). So we might speculate that since he could not read Classical arabic, it would be easier for him to get his religious guidance through hadiths. To be honest with you, Layth, Arnold Yasin, Ayman, Wakas and many others at this forum knows a lot more than me about the history of Islam, so if you want to learn more about Imam muslim or the history of hadith, i think they may give you better and more detailed answears.

By the way, i changed a part of my last post, because i had to correct some stuff. I changed this part