The smoke mentioned in 44:10
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Oh and I don't believe any of the predictions Layth made in his thread. I believe that one has to be a messenger chosen by God to be able to correctly predict the future
Say, "I do not know if what is promised to you will happen soon, or if my Lord will delay it for awhile." He is the Knower of the future; He does not reveal the future to anyone. Only to a messenger that He chooses, does He reveal from the past and the future, specific news.
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Peace Supernaut,
Since we're speculating ...
I'd think the smoke would be more 'natural' - one phenomenon that comes to mind is a super-volcano. They say it's not if but when Yellowstone, for example, simple bursts. Thousands of square miles would be completely leveled, millions killed by poisonous smoke, and the atmosphere engulfed in volcanic dust and gas, shielding the earth from the sun's heat, bringing about a new ice age. Very few would survive, but who knows.Peace,
Tay -
I'd think the smoke would be more 'natural' - one phenomenon that comes to mind is a super-volcano. They say it's not if but when Yellowstone, for example, simple bursts. Thousands of square miles would be completely leveled, millions killed by poisonous smoke, and the atmosphere engulfed in volcanic dust and gas, shielding the earth from the sun's heat, bringing about a new ice age.
Peace Tay,
I too thought that after watching a documentary on volcanoes but the problem with that theory is that the SO2 from the eruption will come from deep within the earth; not from the sky. Another theory that occured to me after watching another documentary (this time on heavenly bodies) was that "The Smoke" will perhaps be due to a disintegrating meteoroid. These things do a lot of damage and fill the sky with dust (and perhaps with some gas as well) upon disintegrating. They never touch the earth but they still affect the entire planet, like the time when a meteoroid disintegrated over Siberia, Russisa .
Speaking of meteoroids, there is mention of them in the Quran
- You race/society (of) the Jinns and human/mankind, if you were able that (E) you penetrate/pierce from the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's regions/diameters/chords, so penetrate/pierce, you do not penetrate/pierce except with power/authoritry.
The above verse predicted that humans would one day have the "power" to break free from the earth's gravitational pull and go beyond its atmosphere.
- So with which (of) your (B)'s (humans and Jinns) Lord's blessings (do) you (B) deny/falsify?
This verse suggests that we'll find many of God's blessings in outer space. It is theoretically possible to use ancient blackholes to generate loads of energy on Earth since they radiate plenty of it. People who think that the American government's wasting its money financing NASA's projects should read the Quran. And knowledge is its own reward.
- He sends on you (B) a smokeless flame/blazing heat from fire and copper/sparks of molten iron, so you (B) do not become victorious.
5533 mentions Jinns first and humans second and 5535 mentions blazing heat before sparks of molten iron thereby suggesting that Jinns are exposed to blazing heat while humans are bombarded with sparks of molten iron. It just so happens that astronauts really are bombarded with iron-containing particles travelling at high speeds called micrometeoroids.
In fact, he suggested that much of the iron isn't even native to Mars -- it is, instead, the remnants of the continuous rain of tiny micrometeoroids upon Mars' surface throughout its existence. They are on the average several times richer in iron than Mars' rocks are, and when they hit Mars' air, frictional heat could oxidize the iron in them into fine hematite and maghemite without the need for any exposure to liquid water at all.
Moreover, Yen's lab experiments indicate that any grains of metallic iron in the micrometeoroids that survived the entry and landed on Mars intact could then be oxidized simply by the 0.15% trace of free oxygen in Mars' atmosphere. This oxygen is produced by the constant temporary breakdown of a small part of Mars' CO2 into oxygen and carbon monoxide by the Sun's ultraviolet light. That same solar UV light would provide the energy to make the oxygen react efficiently with the metallic iron in the micrometeoroids' remains, once again without a trace of water being necessary.
Source http//www.spacedaily.com/news/lunarplanet-2003-03c3.html
The existence of micrometeoroids in space is indicated from studies of the zodiacal light. The zodiacal light is sunlight reflected from micrometeoroids orbiting the Sun near the ecliptic plane. Studies of it suggest that the number of micrometeoroids increases rapidly with decreasing size. Micrometeoroids presumably travel at the same speeds as meteoroids, about 12 to 72 km/sec.
Source http//history.nasa.gov/SP-404/ch3.htm
Micrometeoroids pose a significant threat to space exploration. Their velocities relative to a spacecraft in orbit can be on the order of kilometers per second, and resistance to micrometeoroid impact is a significant design challenge for spacecraft and space suit designers (See Thermal Micrometeoroid Garment). While the tiny sizes of most micrometeoroids limits the damage incurred, the high velocity impacts will constantly degrade the outer casing of spacecraft in a manner analogous to sandblasting. Long term exposure can threaten the functionality of spacecraft systems.
Impacts by small objects with extremely high velocity are a current area of research in terminal ballistics. Accelerating objects up to such velocities is difficult; current techniques include linear motors and shaped charges. The risk is especially high for objects in space for long periods of time, such as satellites. They also pose major engineering challenges in theoretical low-cost lift systems such as rotovators, space elevators, and orbital airships.
Source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micrometeoroid
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I went through a thread in here created by Layth in which he argued that the smoke mentioned in 4410 will be the result of a nuclear war. I think I agree that the smoke will be the result of a nuclear war, but I don't agree with the doom and gloom scenario he depicted in which more than 4 billion people die.
Therefore, watch for the day when the sky brings a profound smoke.
If a nuclear bomb were dropped on a city the resulting mushroom cloud would rise up from where the bomb was dropped, but 4410 talks of the sky bringing a terrible smoke. So the fact that a bomb wouldn't hit its target would mean fewer deaths. My guess is that some country will try to annihilate another country with a nuclear bomb but the other country will use an anti-ballistic missile to reduce the demage from that nuclear bomb and so there'll be an almighty explosion in the sky and a radioactive smoke will be produced in the sky.
It will envelope the people; this is a painful retribution. "Our Lord, relieve this retribution for us; we are believers." Now that it is too late, they remember! An enlightening messenger had come to them. But they turned away from him, saying, "Well educated, but crazy!" We will relieve the retribution for a while (this verse is translated as "We will remove the retribution in a while" by the Progressive Muslims); you will soon revert. The day we strike the big stroke, we will avenge.
There will be enough unbelievers left to ask God to end their suffering and the smoke won't be very long-lasting. The survivng unbelievers will disbelieve in God once God will give them a reprieve, however there won't be any escaping God's ultimate revenge which will be the day God will end the world. God says it will be a terrible time for the unbelievers but nothing the believers will have to fear or worry about.
This already happened in WW2 in Japan and in many wars were posion gas was used.
It is also understood as polution
There is a Surah in Qur'an Kareem called Dukhan (Smoke or Mist), which addresses the problems of modern environmental pollution and the dangers to mankind from such pollution.
Then watch thou
For the Day (period or age)
That the sky will
Bring forth a kind
Of smoke (or mist)
Plainly visible
Enveloping the people
This will be a penalty Grievous.
Surah DUKHAN, 44 10-11
A. Yusuf All in note 4696 interprets "smoke" or "mist" as referring to a severe famine in Mecca, in which people were so pinched with hunger that they saw smoke (or mist) before their eyes when they looked at the sky.
Qur'an Majid (Glorious) is a Book of Wisdom and Guidance to be followed by people of all nations and at all ages of time.
" And Peace to all
Who follow guidance! " Surah TA-HA, 20 47
The first Ayah cited above is interpreted according to the conditions existing now here In USA and other industrialized countries of the world. This writer strongly feels and is convinced (unless someone proves to the contrary) that the Ayath is referring to the environmental pollution in general and to the smog or air pollution in particular. The smog is plainly visible and it is enveloping the people. This clearly poses a grievous or serious health hazard to humanity. If not checked and controlled, it may pose a serious threat to the very existence of mankind on planet earth.
ENVIRONMENTAL POLLUTION
Environmental pollution is a term that refers to all the methods by which people pollute their environment or surroundings. People with gases and smoke dirty our clean air, our pure water is tainted with chemicals and other substances, and the virgin soil is damaged with too many fertilizers and pesticides. People also pollute their surroundings by other different methods. For example, they ruin nature's beauty by scattering junk and litter in the water and on the land. People operate motor vehicles and machines that fill the air with unpleasant noise. Almost everybody causes environmental pollution in someway or other.
Today environmental pollution is one of the most serious problems facing mankind. Air, water, and soil are essential to the survival of all living creatures on planet earth, but unfortunately they are harmed by pollution. Air polluted beyond tolerable levels can cause illness, and even death. Polluted water kills fish and other marine life and is dangerous to human health. Pollution of soil decreases the amount of land available for growing crops, vegetables and fruits. Our naturally beautiful world is becoming ugly by environmental pollution. Everyone is now conscious and wants to reduce pollution. But the pollution problem is both serious and also complicated. It is complicated because much of pollution is caused by things that benefit mankind. For example, automobile exhaust causes a large percentage of all air pollution. However, the automobile provides transportation for millions of people all over the world. Discharge from factories is responsible for much of the material that pollutes air and water, but factories provide jobs and produce goods that people want. The use of fertilizer or pesticide can ruin soil, but fertilizers and pesticides are important aids to the growing of crops, fruits and vegetables. In order to end or greatly reduce pollution immediately, people must stop using many things that benefit them. Unfortunately, most people do not want to do that. But pollution can be reduced in a planned manner in several ways. Scientists and engineers can work together to find methods to decrease the amount of pollution that such things as automobiles and factories cause. Governments should pass and enforce laws that require manufacturers and Individuals to stop, or reduce on certain polluting activities. And most important of all is individuals and people's organizations must work to persuade their representatives in government, and also persuade manufacturers, to take action toward reducing pollution.
HISTORY
People have always polluted their environment or caused some environmental pollution. Since prehistoric times, human beings have put wastes in water and generated smoke by burning fuel. However, in early civilization people did not live crowded together, and they had no pollution- causing machines. Therefore, pollution was negligible and it was spread out over large areas. During ancient times, pollution problems first arose when large numbers of people started to live together in cities. With the growth of the cities, pollution also increased proportionately with them. However, the environmental problems were not serious or widespread until eighteenth century and early part of the nineteenth century. This period in history is called the Industrial Revolution, which began In England and spread to other European countries and the United States. The notable feature of the Industrial Revolution was the development of factories and overcrowding with factory workers in cities. At that time coal was the prime energy fuel to power most of the factories and to heat most of the homes in the cities. Because of the burning of coal, the air over such industrial cities as London became filled with huge amounts of smoke and soot containing sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide. An additional problem was poor sanitation facilities, which allowed raw sewage to get into water supplies in some cities, which sometimes happens in the developing countries even now. The polluted water causes typhoid fever and other diseases. In the early part of the twentieth century, air pollution in industrial cities in the United States became a particularly serious problem. During the post economic depression period (1930's), smoke and smote emanating from factories, steel mills, power plants, railroads, and heating plants filled the air over many Eastern and Midwestern cities. It was reported that in some cities such as Pittsburgh and St. Louis, the air pollution was so thick that the motorists had to use headlights to see during the daylight hours.
After the end of the Second World War, air pollution from coal burning has been greatly diminished in most parts of the world. Cleaner fuels such as oil and natural gas are being used in nearly all railroads and many industries and home heating plants now. Those factories, which use coal, have taken steps to control the pollution from their furnaces. In many countries, epidemics from disease-carrying germs in city water supplies are no longer a major problem. Sanitary Engineering is advanced, so that cities now treat their water and keep it as free from germs as possible.
Inspite of these technological advancements, environmental pollution has become increasingly serious and widespread. Technological improvements have helped cause this increase. In addition, the population growth in urban areas is tremendously increasing. A rule of thumb is more the people more is the waste produced of every kind. Public awareness of environmental pollution has grown considerably. Dramatic environmental tragedies that occurred during the 1960's and the 1970's have pointed up the seriousness of the pollution problem. These include the oil spills that ruined the beautiful beaches and killed wildlife and waterways that had become nearly dead from solid wastes.
During the late 1970's the inhabitants of the city of Seveso in Italy were threatened after an explosion at a local chemical factory that released a poisonous and carcinogenic gas called dioxin. Chemical wastes that leaked from a former disposal site called Love Canal, in Niagara Falls, New York, resulted in many families moving out of their homes located in the area. Chemicals, such as polychlorinated biphenyls (PCB's) were discharged in the wastewater of certain industrial plants, found their way into the bodies of fish and other animals in various parts of the United States. In 1984, a leak of poisonous gas from a pesticide plant in Bhopal, in Madhya Pradesh State, in India, killed over 3,600 people and injured over 25,000 people. In April 1986, an explosion and fire at a nuclear power plant at Chernobyl, near Kiev, in the Soviet Union, released large amounts of radioactivity into the atmosphere and over 36 people died because of this accident and several hundreds were injured and hospitalized. During the same year (1986), toxic chemicals released into the Rhine River killed thousands of fish and eels. The reason for this chemical spill has been traced to a fire at a chemical storage warehouse near Basel, Switzerland.
PUBLIC CONCERN
People have always polluted our environment. But for large part of history, pollution was not a major problem. Most of the people lived in uncrowded rural areas and the pollutants (waste products) they produced were scattered widely. At that time pollution-causing machines were not invented, such as industrial plants or motor vehicles. Industrialization and the development of crowded cities in the 1700's and the 1800's made pollution a major problem to man, plants and animals. Factories and human beings in these urban cities released huge amounts of pollutants into small areas. With the advent of automobiles and the rapid development of urban areas made pollution steadily worse. By the middle of the twentieth century, pollution had affected the water in every major lake and river and the air over every major city In the United States and other Industrial nations. Since man landed on the moon, millions of people have become alarmed by the dangers of pollution. The United Nations and a large number of countries are joining hands and working together to reduce pollution. There are several kinds of environmental pollution. They are air pollution, soil pollution, water pollution, and pollution caused by solid wastes, noise, and radiation. All parts of the environment are closely related to one another, ecologically. Ecology is the study of the relationships among living things, and between living things and other parts of the environment.
Because of the ecological relationships, a kind of pollution that chiefly harms one part of the environment may also affect others. Take for example, air pollution. Air pollution harms the air. However, rain washes pollutants out of the air and deposits them on the land and in bodies of water. On the other hand, wind blows pollutants off the land and puts them into the air.
AIR POLLUTION
Air pollution turns clear, odorless air into hazy, smelly air that harms health, kills plants, and damages property. Human beings cause air pollution by pouring hundreds of millions of tons of gases and particulates into the atmosphere each year. Particulates are tiny particles of solid or liquid matter. Smog is one of the most common forms of air pollution. Combustion (burning) is responsible for most of the air pollution. The burning of gasoline to power by motor vehicles and the burning of coal to heat buildings and help manufacture products are examples of such processes. In a combustion process, each time a fuel is burned, some type of pollutant is released into the air. The pollutants vary from small amounts of colorless poison gas to clouds of thick black smoke. Weather conditions can help to decrease the amount of pollutants in the air. Wind is responsible for scattering the pollutants, and rain and snow wash them into the ground. Unfortunately, in many areas, pollutants are discharged into the air faster than weather conditions can dispose of them. As we are witnessing everyday, in all crowded cities throughout the world, for example, millions or thousands of automobiles, factories, and furnaces are adding tons of pollutants into a small area of the atmosphere each day. Sometimes, weather conditions cause pollutants to build up over an area instead of clearing them away. One such weather condition -called thermal inversion- occurs when a layer of warm air settles over a layer of cooler air, which is near to the ground. The warm air holds down the cool air and prevents the pollutants from rising and scattering. A serious pollution problem occurs when a thermal inversion prevails over a city that is pouring tons of pollutants into the air.
HEALTH EFFECTS OF AIR POLLUTION
Factories, homes, and office buildings discharge sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide into the air. Sulfur dioxide harms the respiratory systems of humans and animals. Sulfur dioxide turns into sulfur trioxide, which combines with water vapor to form sulfuric acid. Sulfuric acid is well known to cause corrosion of metals. Automobiles, motor vehicles and aeroplanes emit hydrocarbons, nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide into the air. Carbon monoxide causes headaches and dizziness in humans. Nitrogen dioxide harms the respiratory systems of humans and damages plants. Hydrocarbons injure plants. Nitrogen dioxide combines with hydrocarbons and sunlight to form smog. Smog irritates the eyes of people, damages their lungs, and causes headaches. It also injures the plants. Combustion of garbage and trash results in the discharge of particles, and mercury into the atmosphere. Mercury harms the nervous systems of humans. Particulates injure the respiratory systems of humans, reduce visibility, and affect climate. As mentioned earlier, air pollution also harms plants. Poisonous gases in the air can restrict the growth of, and eventually kill nearly all kinds of plants. To give few examples, forests in Tennessee, citrus groves near Los Angeles, and vegetable gardens in New Jersey have all been seriously damaged by air pollution.
Both gases and particulates burn people's eyes and irritate their lungs. Particulates can settle in the lungs and worsen such respiratory diseases as asthma and bronchitis. Some experts are of the opinion that particulates may even help cause such diseases as cancer, emphysema, and pneumonia. It has been observed in cities throughout the world, long periods of heavy air pollution have caused illness and death rates to increase dramatically.
It has also been observed that most materials get dirty and wear out more quickly in polluted air than in fresh air. Construction engineers say that polluted air even harms such hard and strong materials as concrete and steel. Statues and other art objects that stood outdoors for centuries have been removed and taken indoors because air pollution is threatening to destroy them. One of the seven wonders of the world, the Taj Mahal, located in Agra City In India is decaying due to sulfur dioxide polluted air hovering over it. Air pollutants affect weather. Changes in the average temperatures of an area are affected by both gases and particulates. Particulates scatter the sun's rays and reduce the amount of sunlight that reaches the earth. Such interference with sunlight may cause average temperatures in a city to drop. Carbon dioxide and other gases, allow sunlight to reach the surface of the earth, but prevent the sunlight's heat from rising out of the atmosphere and flowing back into space. This phenomenon is called the greenhouse effect. Greenhouse effect is known to cause average temperatures to rise.
WATER POLLUTION
As a result of water pollution the amount of pure, fresh water that is available is reduced for such necessities as drinking and cleaning, and for such activities as swimming and fishing. Water is affected by pollutants that come mainly from industries, farms, and sewerage systems. It is well known that factories dump huge amounts of waste products into bodies of water each year. The wastes that are dumped into water reservoirs include chemicals, wastes from animal and plant matter, and hundreds of other substances. Wastes from farms include animal wastes, fertilizers, and pesticides. A large amount of these materials drain off from farm fields into nearby bodies of water. Sewerage systems carry wastes from homes, offices, hospitals, and factories into water. Almost every city has a waste treatment plant that removes some of the most harmful wastes from sewage. This does not remove completely materials that harm the water.
Natural cycles work to absorb small amounts of wastes in reservoirs of water. During a natural cycle, wastes are turned into useful or at least harmless substances. Aerobic bacteria use oxygen to breakdown natural wastes such as dead fish and decay them down into chemicals, including nitrates, phosphates, and carbon dioxide. These chemicals, called nutrients, are used as food by algae (simple organisms) and other green plants in the water. Microscopic animals called zooplankton eat algae as food. Small fish such as minnows eats zooplankton. The small fish in turn, are eaten by larger fish. The larger fish eventually die and are broken down by bacteria. The cycle then begins again. This same natural cycles work on wastes discharged into water by people. Chemicals are broken down by bacteria. Bacteria also break down other wastes and turn them into nutrients, or else into substances that will not harm fish or sea plants. On the other hand, if too much waste matter is poured into the water, the whole cycle will begin to break down, and the water starts to become dirtier and dirtier. The bacterium that works to decay the wastes consumes too much oxygen during the decaying process. As a consequence of this, less oxygen is available for the animals and plants in the water. Due to lack of oxygen the animals and plants die, adding even more wastes to the water. In the end, the water's entire oxygen supply is used up and, without oxygen, anaerobic bacteria, rather than aerobic bacteria, decay wastes. The disadvantage of the anaerobic decaying process is that it causes wastes to give off smelly gases.
A process called nutrient enrichment, or eutrophication, takes place by nutrients present in the water. People also add nutrients to water, such as nitrates from agricultural fertilizers and phosphates from detergents in sewage; greatly increase the growth of algae in water. Growth of larger amounts of algae also results in the death of large amounts of algae. The dead algae become wastes, and, as they decay they use up the water's oxygen supply.
When heated water is added to a body of water, it upsets the cycles. Heated water can kill animals and plants, which are accustomed to living at lower temperatures in the water. Heated water reduces the amount of oxygen that water can hold. The addition of heated water is called thermal pollution. The source of most heated water is industries and nuclear power plants that use water for cooling.
Another major pollutant of water is oil. Oil enters oceans primarily as a result of oil tanker accidents. Such oil spills ruin our beautiful beaches and kill birds and marine life.
SOIL POLLUTION
Soil pollution damages the thin layer of fertile soil that covers much of the earth's land and is essential for growing crops, vegetables and fruits. Nature takes thousands of years to form the soil to support food crops, but man can destroy it in a few years. In nature, cycles keep soil fertile. Bacteria and fungi decay these wastes such as animal wastes and dead organisms, breaking them down into nitrates, phosphates, and other nutrients. The nutrients feed growing plants, and when the plants die the cycle begins again. The use of large amounts of fertilizers decreases the ability of bacteria to decay wastes and produce nutrients naturally. Pesticides harm bacteria and other helpful organisms in the soil. Erosion causes much damage to soil. Careless farming and land construction cause erosion.
SOLID WASTES
The most visible form of pollution is solid wastes. Garbage and trash results in billions of tons of solid material each year. Much of this waste ends up littering roadsides, floating in lakes and streams, and collecting in ugly dumps. Some examples of solid wastes are junked cars, tires, and refrigerators. Stoves, cans and other packaging materials, and scraps of metal and paper. When solid waste is stored' dumps, it provides home for disease-carrying animals, such as cockroaches and rats. When solid waste is destroyed by burning it, the smoke causes air pollution. Wastes dumped into water results in water pollution. Each American produces about 45 pounds (20 kilograms) of solid waste each day. Production of solid waste is increasing rapidly. In addition, materials that decay and burn are replaced by plastics that will not decay and that give off harmful gases when burned. Other kinds of pollutants such as noise, radiation, acid rain, pesticides, and such metals as mercury and lead will be covered in a sequel.
http//www.irfi.org/articles/articles_51_100/pollution.htm
http//www.irfi.org/
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Salam,
Oh and I don't believe any of the predictions Layth made in his thread. I believe that one has to be a messenger chosen by God to be able to correctly predict the future
Predicting using the Quran is not predicting the future - it is merely repeating/speculating on what has already been revealed.
The smoke, Gog and Magog, the Daaba, all villages/towns being destroyed, etc...
The smoke could also be, as Tay suggested, a combination of volcanic smoke or even a meteor blast blocking the sun for months.
Also, from 4413-14, we are looking for a messenger to have preceeded this sign and be rejected.
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Salam,
Predicting using the Quran is not predicting the future - it is merely repeating/speculating on what has already been revealed.
Salam Layth,
You predicted a precise date for when the nuclear war will start. That to me is prophesying which I believe you can?t do given that you?re not a messenger.
Also, from 4413-14, we are looking for a messenger to have preceeded this sign and be rejected.
Though I can't recall you being explicit about it, didn't you at least imply that the messenger mentioned in those verses was Khalifa? I believe Khalifa was the messenger those verses refer to.
Oh and another thing. You said that the Quran prophesied the re-establishment of the illegal, illegitimate, jingoistic and tribalistic state of Israel (you didn't use all those adjectives; they are what I believe Israel to be, but don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist) in 174-7 and 17104, but don?t those verses refer to the Babylonian and then the Roman destruction of Israel? Another reason why those verses can?t refer to a future event is that the Jewish temple doesn?t exist, and it?s not very likely it ever will. Only a small number of racist Israeli extremists want the Dome of the Rock to be demolished and a temple built in its place. So what temple will Israel?s enemies enter? The Dome of the Rock is not sacred to the Israelis, only the Wailing Wall (the only remnant of Herod?s temple) is, and it hardly counts as a temple.
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80% of ALL Israelis are secular who have not affiliation with the Jewish religion, and so where most of its leaders. They do not care about the Dome of the Rock. They just want to sustain their nationalistic system. The government has as much problems with religious Jews as with the Palestinian question.
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Salam,
You predicted a precise date for when the nuclear war will start. That to me is prophesying which I believe you can?t do given that you?re not a messenger.
I speculated a date based on my own reading of certain verses (which I believe I abondoned soon afterward based on some discussion regarding the weakness of the findings).
However, if a date can be derived from the Quran, and if such a date is accurate, then that still would not make a person need to be a messenger (since the message is already with us).
Though I can't recall you being explicit about it, didn't you at least imply that the messenger mentioned in those verses was Khalifa? I believe Khalifa was the messenger those verses refer to.
Yes, I did speculate that. The messenger being mentioned in sura 44 is clearly a new messenger (not Mohammed).
Oh and another thing. You said that the Quran prophesied the re-establishment of the illegal, illegitimate, jingoistic and tribalistic state of Israel (you didn't use all those adjectives; they are what I believe Israel to be, but don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist) in 174-7 and 17104, but don?t those verses refer to the Babylonian and then the Roman destruction of Israel? Another reason why those verses can?t refer to a future event is that the Jewish temple doesn?t exist, and it?s not very likely it ever will. Only a small number of racist Israeli extremists want the Dome of the Rock to be demolished and a temple built in its place. So what temple will Israel?s enemies enter? The Dome of the Rock is not sacred to the Israelis, only the Wailing Wall (the only remnant of Herod?s temple) is, and it hardly counts as a temple.
Establishment (not re-establishment). Sura 17 refers to two events, one has passed and one is yet to pass. The one that has passed is as you mentioned the Babylonian destruction and dispursement of the original kingdom of Israel. The second prophecy was yet to pass (so it could not have been the Roman episode as a) that was only dealing with a portion of the Jews as many others were still scattered, and b) that was an event that occured before the Quran, so it is not the future prophecy mentioned).
On the Jewsih temple, I am not sure why you mention this as it is not related. The Temple that is being entered is the one we (our Muslim ancestors) had taken beforehand, thus it is the Temple Mount area, specifically the Dome of the Rock - It is a site that is sacred to us, not to them.
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Salam Layth,
Establishment (not re-establishment).
Much of today?s Israel is a re-established state/kingdom (and a tiny part of the original given that Eretz Israel was larger). The ancient Israelites lived in most parts of Israel.
Sura 17 refers to two events, one has passed and one is yet to pass. The one that has passed is as you mentioned the Babylonian destruction and dispursement of the original kingdom of Israel. The second prophecy was yet to pass (so it could not have been the Roman episode as a) that was only dealing with a portion of the Jews as many others were still scattered, and b) that was an event that occured before the Quran, so it is not the future prophecy mentioned).
I see. What you say makes sense.
On the Jewsih temple, I am not sure why you mention this as it is not related. The Temple that is being entered is the one we (our Muslim ancestors) had taken beforehand,
The Muslims didn?t conquer any temple. There was none to be conquered because it had been destroyed after the Bar Kochba revolt. The Dome of the Rock was built where Herod?s Temple once stood (which the Romans burned down).
thus it is the Temple Mount area, specifically the Dome of the Rock - It is a site that is sacred to us, not to them.
That site is very sacred to Jews. Like I said, it?s where Herod?s Temple was, and before that, Solomon?s Temple (which Nebuchadnezzar destroyed). My point is that there is no temple that Israel?s conquerors will have to enter because there is a Mosque there that is likely to remain standing unless some nut-job Zionists blow it up thereby causing all hell to break loose.
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Salam,
Much of today?s Israel is a re-established state/kingdom (and a tiny part of the original given that Eretz Israel was larger). The ancient Israelites lived in most parts of Israel.
It is my understanding that the Kingdom of Solomon and David was never located in Palestine, but was much further to the south in the area near Sheeba/Yemen (Southern Arabia). After the exile in Babylon, the Jews were scattered to the 4 winds and have been found in far away places such as Europe and Africa. It is only now - in fulfillment of the Quranic prophecy - that most of the children of Israel have been brought together in one place.
The Muslims didn?t conquer any temple. There was none to be conquered because it had been destroyed after the Bar Kochba revolt. The Dome of the Rock was built where Herod?s Temple once stood (which the Romans burned down).
The Dome is contructed upon the rock that has always been at that site and upon a stone foundation which is much older than the current structure. That the temple structure may have been destroyed in the war of the jews shortly after the death of Jesus is possible, but we are talking 600 years later at the time of Mohammed when there was more than ample time for the followers of Abraham to rebuild upon the foundation that has always been there (even if it was a make-shift structure). Also, do not forget that Rome later on became a Christian nation and hence Jerusalem took a major position as being a holy site under the Roman empire. Also, the Muslims at the time of Mohammed acknowledged Jerualem as their focal point and spoke of Mohammed visiting a temple/structre located at Mt. Moria before he was transported on his heavenly journey (not possible if there was no structure standing as you state).
That site is very sacred to Jews. Like I said, it?s where Herod?s Temple was, and before that, Solomon?s Temple (which Nebuchadnezzar destroyed). My point is that there is no temple that Israel?s conquerors will have to enter because there is a Mosque there that is likely to remain standing unless some nut-job Zionists blow it up thereby causing all hell to break loose.
The temple is the Dome of the Rock which may have changed its outer design/shell over the centuries, but has always been the focal point for the followers of Abraham.
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Salam,
It is my understanding that the Kingdom of Solomon and David was never located in Palestine, but was much further to the south in the area near Sheeba/Yemen (Southern Arabia). After the exile in Babylon, the Jews were scattered to the 4 winds and have been found in far away places such as Europe and Africa. It is only now - in fulfillment of the Quranic prophecy - that most of the children of Israel have been brought together in one place.
Salam,
I don't have an educated opinion (the only sort that counts) on your understanding yet because I have more reading to do on this matter.
The Dome is contructed upon the rock that has always been at that site and upon a stone foundation which is much older than the current structure. That the temple structure may have been destroyed in the war of the jews shortly after the death of Jesus is possible, but we are talking 600 years later at the time of Mohammed when there was more than ample time for the followers of Abraham to rebuild upon the foundation that has always been there (even if it was a make-shift structure). Also, do not forget that Rome later on became a Christian nation and hence Jerusalem took a major position as being a holy site under the Roman empire.
Judaism was outlawed in the Roman empire after the Bar Kochba revolt, so it's almost impossible that the Jews would've built anything upon the rock after Herod's Temple was burned down. Christians suffered a lot at the hands of the Romans but Christianity eventually became the official religion of the Roman empire, however there isn't any conclusive evidence that a Church was built on the rock (though some believe that St. Helena built a Church there).
Also, the Muslims at the time of Mohammed acknowledged Jerualem as their focal point
Only for a bit (2142).
and spoke of Mohammed visiting a temple/structre located at Mt. Moria before he was transported on his heavenly journey (not possible if there was no structure standing as you state).
Mohamed visited "the farthest place of prostration". One can worship God anywhere on the earth or beyond, so if Mohamed was living in Arabia, Jerusalem couldn't be "the farthest place of prostration" because Jerusalem isn't all that far from Arabia. I agree with Khalifa's understanding of Masjid Al Aqsa as a place in the outermost layer of the universe where Mohamed?s personhood went to receive the Quran.
The temple is the Dome of the Rock which may have changed its outer design/shell over the centuries, but has always been the focal point for the followers of Abraham.
I don't know if it's always held significance for Abraham's followers. I read your articles in which you argued that Jerusalem is the actual holy city for Muslims long ago, but I disagree with you. Anyway, whether or not Jerusalem has significance for Muslims is irrelevant to what we?re discussing as is whether or not Churches and Mosques (structures that are not holy to Jews) were built on the rock. What really matters is whether the Jews will ever again have a sacred structure on the rock which their enemies will enter and desecrate as the Quran says.
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Also, from 4413-14, we are looking for a messenger to have preceeded this sign and be rejected.
Salam,
There is a possibility that the Messenger in 9128 and 7227 are the ones hinted in 4413-14. If 9128, it may have come to pass and the rejection of the verse has occurred already. If another person is referred to in 7227, that person or messenger will be able to interpret 4410 as he is given the secrets by God but definitely he is not RK because of his rejection of 9128-129.
Hati
