Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws

belH

So do not confuse your limited 8 year old modern Arabic with the mature Classic Arabic.

rotfl

Miim-Tha-Lam = Stand erect, mutilate or castrate (namely a sheep or goat), to set up a thing, affect to be like or to imitate a thing, apply a proverb, apply a thing proverbially, be nearly in a sound or healthy state, near to convalescence, obey/follow a command or order, to resemble, be of likeness or equivalent.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm

So the verse could be, per your translation

A "likeness or equivalent" of the Garden which the righteous are promised! beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the End of the Righteous; and the End of Unbelievers is the Fire. (35)

I do not see a differances between what I wrote before and now

Peace
The verse right translation is as follow

The illustration of the Garden which the righteous are promised! beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the End of the Righteous; and the End of Unbelievers is the Fire. (35)

The bold word is used to translate the arabic word "Mathel", which means an illustration or an example and not Allegory.

belH

Peace,

I see communicating not as breaking any laws of nature, which I have clearly stated in my articles. So using this as "proof" is a waste of time.

So, you agree that God spoke to Moses Driect?

arnoldyasin

So, you agree that God spoke to Moses Driect?

Yes, I say clearly in my articles that communication is not breaking the laws and not intervening by breaking/ignoring the established laws of the universe. Communication to guide mankind is the same as the instincts given to animals. That God spoke to Moses directly I believe does not mean by the use of air-vibration but by information exchange using the Quantum Field which connects all our brains with the whole universe. But only to Moses it is known how it felt.

belH

Yes, I say clearly in my articles that communication is not breaking the laws and not intervening by breaking/ignoring the established laws of the universe. Communication to guide mankind is the same as the instincts given to animals. That God spoke to Moses directly I believe does not mean by the use of air-vibration but by information exchange using the Quantum Field which connects all our brains with the whole universe. But only to Moses it is known how it felt.

The way the verse means, in arabic, is that Moses spoke to God "KaLam Allah Moses Taklima", which means a direct TALK and not through A Radio Waive.

So, how about that verse

(&#65279
When Moses came to the place appointed by Us and his Lord spoke to him, He said (Moses) "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon Thee." Allah said "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); but look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested Himself to the Mount, He made it as dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7-143)

Do you believe that the Mount exploded and became dust?

belH

In Arabic, ANYTHING THAT WALKS ON THE EARTH is called a so it has nothing to with an animal specifically, it can talk about humans or even an alien species talking to mankind in the far future.

Lets use the Quran to show the truth about this example

(&#1640
There is not an animal ?DABA? on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. (6-3

Can you note that God says that the Community of ?Daba? is like the Community of ?Human being?; that would mean if ?DABA? means ?Human?, God would be saying that the Community of ?Humans? is like the Community of ?Humans?!!!

(&#1632
How many are the animals (DABA) that carry not their own sustenance? It is Allah Who feeds (both) them and you for He hears and knows (all things). (29-60)

Can you note that God is making a clear distinction between DABA and us? If there is no deferent, God would not have said and you (Humans).

(&#1635 (&#1636
Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe. (3) And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals (DABA) are scattered (by creation), are Signs for those of assured Faith. (45-4)

When God says that us (yourself) and DABA, he is telling us that we are different from DABA. In other words, when God mention us he does not use DABA unless we deserve to be called DABA! The ones who choose to not reason and think, God says that they are like animals or worse.

(&#1640
Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees the animals (DABA); and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment and such as Allah shall disgrace none can rise to honor for Allah carries out all that He wills. (22-1

Can you note how God is making a clear distinction between heavens, earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, Hills, Trees, Animals (DABA), and Mankind (Humans). Why God calls his different creatures using deferent Names?

(&#1640
And so amongst men and crawling creatures (DABA) and cattle (Anaam), are they of various colors. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants who have knowledge for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving. (35-2

MEN & DABA are two creatures that God calls them using different names.

Thus,

(

And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth a DABA D to speak to them, saying "for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs." (27-82)

A Talking Animal is what God Means, in his verse

Peace

unknownuser

Yes, I say clearly in my articles that communication is not breaking the laws and not intervening by breaking/ignoring the established laws of the universe. Communication to guide mankind is the same as the instincts given to animals. That God spoke to Moses directly I believe does not mean by the use of air-vibration but by information exchange using the Quantum Field which connects all our brains with the whole universe. But only to Moses it is known how it felt.

Salam,

Objects on the Quantum level follow a different set of laws than "we" do on a macro level. I am assuming you have studied Quantum theory and do not need examples.

If you are relying on Quantum theory to explain God talking to Moses, then you can also do the same for any other "miracle" that occurs.

Because, for instance, if God used Quantum mechanics to produce results in the Macro universe (ie talking to Moses).

Then, you can use this understanding to explain Isa giving life to clay birds to make them fly (by God's permission). Or God producing an animal that talks.

Salam,
Arnab

rover

Salam,

Objects on the Quantum level follow a different set of laws than "we" do on a macro level. I am assuming you have studied Quantum theory and do not need examples.

If you are relying on Quantum theory to explain God talking to Moses, then you can also do the same for any other "miracle" that occurs.

Because, for instance, if God used Quantum mechanics to produce results in the Macro universe (ie talking to Moses).

Then, you can use this understanding to explain Isa giving life to clay birds to make them fly (by God's permission). Or God producing an animal that talks.

Salam,
Arnab

Arnab
Greetings.

According to quantum mind hypothesis classical mechanics cannot explain consciousness. Brain's functions are a function of quantum entanglement and superposition. This forms the basis of consciousness.

This is just a theory supported by minority. No evidence has been provided.

Lets say if this theory is true then we can see how God can control our thoughts using quantum randomness (perceived randomness).

Quantum randomness does not exist at mecahnical level. Clay would remain a clay. How do you think clay would become a bird under quantum mechanics laws?

I believe, using quantum laws anything is NOT just possible in our mechanical world. Quantum mechanics cannot explain paranormals. The spookiest phenomena supported by known science is "quantum weirdness". That is about it.

unknownuser

Salam rover,

I've had an interest in quantum mechanics for some time. I am familiar with the subject.

Salam,
Arnab

arnoldyasin

The way the verse means, in arabic, is that Moses spoke to God "KaLam Allah Moses Taklima", which means a direct TALK and not through A Radio Waive.

Kalam refers to speech being transferred, it does NOT refer to the medium used. Using the Quantum Field is even directer then using air-vibration. As for the mountain, I have certain ideas how it can be understood, but i am not going to spell out everything for you, go read Muhammed Ali's or Muhammed Asad's translation on that verse.

arnoldyasin

Arnab
Greetings.

According to quantum mind hypothesis classical mechanics cannot explain consciousness. Brain's functions are a function of quantum entanglement and superposition. This forms the basis of consciousness.

This is just a theory supported by minority. No evidence has been provided.

Lets say if this theory is true then we can see how God can control our thoughts using quantum randomness (perceived randomness).

Quantum randomness does not exist at mecahnical level. Clay would remain a clay. How do you think clay would become a bird under quantum mechanics laws?

I believe, using quantum laws anything is NOT just possible in our mechanical world. Quantum mechanics cannot explain paranormals. The spookiest phenomena supported by known science is "quantum weirdness". That is about it.

100% agree, plus I have given enough evidence to show that believing the verse says a bird was made from clay is a SUBJECTIVE interpretation and not a LITERAL meaning since there are multiple possibilities in the LITERAL meanings of the words. Holding on to "miracles" while it is not needed shows people are in need of miracles and nature is not enough. Also even if later on it turned out Quantum Physics does allow certain things to occur that looks supernatural, then still they had happenned under THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE and thus they would NOT be miracles. Only for the subjective observer in that timeframe it would like a miracle, but then this would be cheating a bit, since you are stunning a person's intellect with something he would never understand in that timeframe.

Hati

I also have been confused on the birth of sheep "Dolly" which came into existance by "cloning".Where no mating of a male or female occured.

Salam,

Verse has foretold that cloning will be possibe because, for God nothing is impossible. Only it shall be by His permission.

Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

Hati

arnoldyasin

Muhammad Asad - End Note 47 (359)

Lit., "The parable of Jesus is as the parable of Adam...", etc. The expression mathal (rendered above as "nature&quot is often metaphorically employed to denote the state or condition (of a person or a thing), and is in this sense - as the commentators have pointed out - synonymous with sifah (the "quality" or "nature" of a thing). As is evident from the sequence, the above passage is part of an argument against the Christian doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. The Qur'an stresses here, as in many other places, the fact that Jesus, like Adam - by which name, in this context, the whole human race is meant - was only a mortal "created out of dust", i.e., out of substances, both organic and inorganic, which are found in their elementary forms on and in the earth. Cf. also 1837, 225, 3020, 3511, 4067, where the Qur'an speaks of all human beings as "created out of dust". That "Adam" stands here for the human race is clearly implied in the use of the present tense in the last word of this sentence.

Adam=Human skin, Human being, Man, Person, Intelligent Person, Brown Man, Human Race, Mankind, Civilized Person, Person who is created from different substances, Person in possession of different powers, One who has heirs, One who enjoys the conforts of Life, One who is by nature social and hard.

Jesus was created as all of mankind is created....

unknownuser

Salam Arnold,

100% agree, plus I have given enough evidence to show that believing the verse says a bird was made from clay is a SUBJECTIVE interpretation and not a LITERAL meaning since there are multiple possibilities in the LITERAL meanings of the words.

Actually, in my opinion you proved nothing other than that you believe in a METAPHORIC translation of the words instead of the LITERAL meaning of the words in verse 349. I do not agree with your interpretation. Do not misunderstand my lack of comment on this point as an agreement with your view.

Also even if later on it turned out Quantum Physics does allow certain things to occur that looks supernatural, then still they had happened under THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE and thus they would NOT be miracles.

Exactly my point.

IF God's laws include Quantum Mechanics......

Then, once you pointed out that you believe that Quantum mechanics can allow for one thing that is unexplainable on the macro level (God talking directly to Moses), then you must also extend this allowance to the other events in this discussion that are unexplainable on the macro level because they could THEN be explained on the Quantum level.

As both Classical and Quantum mechanics would be considered part of God's laws then almost ANYTHING is possible by God's command.

We are no longer limited to the Classical physical possibilities.

There is no argument at this point because you are conceding that yes indeed things CAN happen that we do not understand in Classical mechanics but they ARE explainable using Quantum Mechanics.

For reference
A MIRACLE by definition (dictionary.com) is (my comments are in blue)

an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world (MACRO WORLD) that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause. Such a supernatural event (in other word outside of MACRO physics) could be attributed to QUANTUM PHYSICS
such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
a wonder; marvel.
a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality a miracle of modern acoustics.

So, correct me if I'm wrong

Now, you are saying that even things that we do not understand are still within God's laws (which includes Quantum Mechanics) and that if we perceive them as so-called "miracles" it is only due to our lack of understanding of Quantum Mechanics, not that something outside of the laws of nature has occurred.

If this is what you are saying, then, you do not need to read the verses such as 349 as a metaphoric statement. Because (by this understanding) Isa was capable of blowing into the clay birds to give them life (since God manipulated Quantum physics to achieve these results), the same can be said of an animal talking and a table of food being presented to a group of people...etc etc

The ONLY difference is that you are including Quantum mechanics within God's laws (which I do not disagree with, however a lot of Quantum Mechanics is theoretical at this point so I cannot completely agree either).

But, one can not dismiss the fact that on a macro scale the events that are possible on a Quantum level do not USUALLY occur.
So you cannot logically say

Everything in the Quran must be explained using Classical Mechanics

AND AT THE SAME TIME SAY

There are ONLY some things in the Quran that can be explained using Quantum mechanics, the rest MUST be explained using Classical Mechanics.

Either you accept the Quantum mechanics possibilities universally or you don't accept them at all.

This is my observation

It seems that when you come across a verse that you can't explain on a macro level you force yourself to accept a Quantum level possibility.

But you first search for the Classical Mechanic possibility (even to the point of resorting to a metaphoric interpretation of verses) and when you come across a verse that will not allow you to interpret it metaphorically instead of accepting the verse THATS WHEN you turn to Quantum Mechanics.

Therefore the argument at this point in the thread IS NOT

?Is it possible that these things happen??

The argument has turned into

?HOW do these things happen.?

As, Quantum Physics is still a science based on theory and hypothesis and there are still very many questions to be answered, I don't think we can fully understand HOW things that we cannot explain happen.

But it seems at this point we are agreeing that THINGS WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND (ie MIRACLES) are possible.

Salam,
Arnab

arnoldyasin

It is He Who has created you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out as a child; then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that you may use your reason.

Allah has bestowed His Guidance upon humans not for that they do not use their reason or intellect but on the contrary He has expounded that the very purpose of His Guidance, the Quran, is that people should use their reason.

Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran, so that you might encompass it with your reason.

Indeed, We have rendered it an Arabic Quran, so that you might encompass it with your reason.

The importance of using the faculty of reasoning is such that Allah has severely condemned those who do not make use of it. He says in the Quran,

Verily, the vilest of all creatures in the sight of God are those deaf, those dumb ones who do not use their reason.

And most certainly have We destined for hell many of the invisible beings and human being who have hearts with which they fail to grasp the truth, and eyes with which they fail to see, and ears with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way it is they, they who are the heedless!

Allah has urged humans in the Quran to ponder upon whatever there is in the universe and elucidated that in His creations, there are signs (towards the Truth) for those who use their reason.

Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth there are messages/signs indeed for people who use their reason.

And there are on earth tracts of land close by one another ; and vinyards, and fields of grain, and date-palms growing in clusters from one root or standing alone, watered with the same water and yet, some of them have We favoured above others by way of the food . Verily, in all this there are messages/signs indeed for people who use their reason!

And He has marshalled to your service the night and the day, the sun and the moon, and the stars have also been made subservient by His command. They all function according to His laws. In these also there are signs for those who use their reason.

And from the fruit of date-palms and vines from it you derive intoxicants as well as wholesome sustenance -in this, behold, there is a message/sign indeed for people who use their reason.

And among His Signs, He shows you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope, and He sends down rain from the sky and with it gives life to the earth after it is dead verily in that are Signs for those who use their reason.

And in the alternation of the night and the day, and in the means of sustenance which Allah sends down from the Height, reviving the earth which had been lifeless, and in the change of winds and seasons - in all this are Signs for people who use their reason.

Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts (and minds) may thus use reason and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not their eyes that are blind, but their hearts which are in their breasts.

unknownuser

?It is He Who has created you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out as a child; then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that you may use your reason.?

Allah has bestowed His Guidance upon humans not for that they do not use their reason or intellect but on the contrary He has expounded that the very purpose of His Guidance, the Quran, is that people should use their reason.

?Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran, so that you might encompass it with your reason.?

?Indeed, We have rendered it an Arabic Quran, so that you might encompass it with your reason.?