Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws
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No I do not believe Jesus was born without a father as there is not any good reason why this hsould have happenned. It contains no message, it doesn't guide people. It is just a myth that was created a century after Jesus. The bible clearly says he had a father. Paul in his Letters constantly refers to Joseph the father of Jesus, Jesus the son of Joseph.
Let's see what the Qur'an has to say
In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as ". And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words ". Wa min aaba ihim" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means . And from among their fathers.
Muslim scholars are in jeopardy with this statement from Allah. They desperately try to justify their faith that Jesus did not have a father. So now they start twisting the meaning and interpretation. At this time I want to emphasize that if Jesus did not have a father then the verse 688 should not have included his name or should have specifically stated that illa Isa or except Isa. Or would you say it was an oversight (nauzubillah!) on part of Allah!!! If the argument is that some HAD fathers, then which other prophet did not have a father? Can you tell me who was born without a father other than Jesus?
There are several other prophets whose fathers are not specifically mentioned in the Qur-an , for example, Nuh, Dawud, Ayyub, Musa, Harun, Zakariya, whose name exists in the list of 18 prophets in the above verses. Even though we dont find the mention of fathers of these prophets we believe these prophets did have fathers. But in case of Jesus we make the exception that he did not have a father. We make this exception because the Christian teachings tell us that Jesus did not have a father, although time and again Bible refers to his father as a person named Joseph.
Muslims are more interested to uphold the Biblical statement at the cost of the Quranic declaration.
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Let's see what the Qur'an has to say
In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as "?. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
In the verse 688, the Arabic words "?. Wa min aaba ihim?" is critical. Let me break down the words Wa means And, Min means From Aaba means Fathers Ihim means Among theirs. Together it means ?. And from among their fathers?.
Muslim scholars are in jeopardy with this statement from Allah. They desperately try to justify their faith that Jesus did not have a father. So now they start twisting the meaning and interpretation. At this time I want to emphasize that if Jesus did not have a father then the verse 688 should not have included his name or should have specifically stated that illa Isa or except Isa. Or would you say it was an oversight (nauzubillah!) on part of Allah!!! If the argument is that some HAD fathers, then which other prophet did not have a father? Can you tell me who was born without a father other than Jesus?
527 And recite to them the story of the two sons of Adam...
From their fathers is a subset. The same logic would assume all had children and brothers guided as well.
Wamin aba-ihim wathurriyyatihim wa-ikhwanihim waijtabaynahum wahadaynahum ila siratin mustaqeemin
687 And from their fathers/forefathers, and their descendants, and their brothers, and We chose/purified them and We guided them to a straight/direct road/way.
And since God is the smartest and has all knowledge it is clear what He would choose...
So I have to agree with Paul davies here, a non-intervening God that created and lets the universe run mankind through fixed laws, is a million times superior to a God that constantly intervenes in making and sustaining mankind.
That's an assumption about God and how does the below work in a godless non intervening universe without messenger angels?
5110 when God said "You Jesus Mary's son, remember My blessing on you and on your mother, when I supported you with the Holy Spirit, you speak/converse (to) the people in the crib/cradle and in maturity, and when I taught/instructed/informed you The Book , and the wisdom , and the Torah, and the Injeel, and when you create as a shape/form (of) the bird/birds with My permission, so you blow in it, so it will be flying/birds, with My permission, and you cure and heal the blind/born blind, and the leper with My permission, and when you bring out the deads with My permission, and when I prevented/stopped children of Israel from you, when you came to them with the evidences, so those who disbelieved from them said "That that (is) except clear/evident magic/sorcery."
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Sorry to say, but the Qur'an is very clear on the father issue. But people can believe what they want.
As for the stopping, I have already answered it before. God has made the universe in such a way that it responses to human action. When a person acts accordign to the Revelation, the universe will bring out possibilities for that person which protects him from harm when needed. This has already been programmed into the universe.
As God programmed the universe, He Himself stopped the people from harming Jesus, but He used the laws of the universe.
And Malikah are the laws of the universe by my understanding. The word "angel" is the name of a Greek mythological creature which has no connection at all with the Arabic word Malikah.
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No I do not believe Jesus was born without a father as there is not any good reason why this hsould have happenned. It contains no message, it doesn't guide people. It is just a myth that was created a century after Jesus. The bible clearly says he had a father. Paul in his Letters constantly refers to Joseph the father of Jesus, Jesus the son of Joseph.
Let's see what the Qur'an has to say
In surah An-Aam verse 84-87 Allah mentions names of 18 prophets at a stretch. Of these, verse 86 specifically mentions name of Isa as "?. And Zakariyya, and Yahya and Isa and Ilyas - everyone was of the righteous." After stating the names of the 18 prophets, in the very next verse 88 Allah goes on to say that
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.
It means Prophet jesus had
1Father
2Descendants
3Brothers
Who were prophets
May I ask you their names or at least any prophet you know who was between Jesus and Prophet Muhammad ??.
Secondly ,my major concern was not fatherhood of Jesus rather it was Dr Shabbir 's lame aruguement who was thinking that for procreation mate is must and he was considering it as a "law of nature".When a person talks like this it means
1Either he is ignorant or
2He is deceiving the people.In another post your said
And Malikah are the laws of the universe by my understanding. The word "angel" is the name of a Greek mythological creature which has no connection at all with the Arabic word Malikah.
I will appreciate if you could provide the "arabic word" for "angel".
Thanks -
perhaps one can look at these miracles in a different way,
it doesn't have to be looked at as God not being able to create universe that runs itself or God not being smart enough...can it be looked at as God demonstrating power, showing that He has the power to change His laws?
since these miracles were shown as a sign, a few times, not always as if God can't make a perfect universe -
Peace,
What has being guided to do with being a Prophet? Nothing! We are guided too by the Qur'an, are we Prophets? So your question is pointless.
24 Those who acknowledge what was sent
down to you, and what was sent down
before you, and regarding the Hereafter
they are certain.*25 These are the ones guided by their Lord,
and these are the winners.And in the multiple choice you put out, I choose all three. If you do otherwise is your own choice. And what Dr.Shabbir says or does is not my concern, nor what your opinion is of him. We are discussing here, don't go deviating from the subject.
Malikah can be used for many things. The Arabs used it for their own mythological creatures and for forces of nature which they understood as gods and powerful spirits. But the meaning of Malikah describes something, a force that controls a certain thing. There is no need to blindly follow the mytholigical ideas of the ancient of any culture. We only need to follow the Arabic meanings.
Nerspi
God already showed power by CREATING the universe. Why ask for more signs then nature itself?
8817-21 Will they not, then, look at
- the water-laden clouds, how they are made? (1522).
- And at the sky, how it is raised high? (Without visible pillars 132).
- And at the mountains, how they are entrenched?
- And at the Earth, how it is spread out? (That you do not even feel the sphere, nor feel its speedy rotations 3110, 395, 7928-30).
Remind them, for you are one to remind.
2164 (Never does Allah propose blind faith.) Behold, there are ample Signs In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, and the alternation of the night and the day - and the ships that roam the ocean for the benefit of mankind - and the water that Allah sends down from the sky, thereby giving life to the land after it had been lifeless - and in dispersing a great variety of creatures therein - and in the currents of winds - and the clouds subservient between the high atmosphere and the Earth. All these are clear Signs for those who exercise their intellect. (The Universe is too organized to be the result of an accident 673.)
1679 Have they not considered the birds enabled to fly in mid-air, with none but Allah holding them aloft? (2471). In this, behold, are messages for those who wish to attain conviction through reason.
4013 He it is Who shows you His Signs in the Universe and sends down sustenance for you from the sky. Yet none learns a lesson except those who turn to seek the Truth.
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Dear Arnold
You have not answered my question regarding Jesus brothers and descendants who are prophets ?Because according to your referenced aya there are prophets in Jesus's descendants.
You have not asnwered my question about the "arabic word for angels" .
Still waiting.Please respond just in one or two sentences.
How many prophets between Jesus and prophets Muhammad in the descendants of jesus ?
What is the Arabic word for "angel" ?
Thanks -
I have answered them. The Qur'an doesn't mention Prophets between Jesus and Muhammed. But it also says God hasn't mentioned all Prophets. So your question is pointless.
But back to MY question!
What has being guided immediately to do with being a Prophet? Read 24 please...
And for angel
Malikah can be used for many things. The Arabs used it for their own mythological creatures and for forces of nature which they understood as gods and powerful spirits. But the meaning of Malikah describes something, a force that controls a certain thing. There is no need to blindly follow the mytholigical ideas of the ancient of any culture. We only need to follow the Arabic meanings.If the Arabs believed Christian angels were the same as Arabian Malikah we do not know. But that doesn't matter, as we do not need to follow their mythological ideas of the universe. We only need to follow the Arabic descriptions of the root meaning.
Or do you want to remain in the bronze age?
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I have answered them. The Qur'an doesn't mention Prophets between Jesus and Muhammed. But it also says God hasn't mentioned all Prophets. So your question is pointless.
But back to MY question!
What has being guided immediately to do with being a Prophet? Read 24 please...
And for angel
Malikah can be used for many things. The Arabs used it for their own mythological creatures and for forces of nature which they understood as gods and powerful spirits. But the meaning of Malikah describes something, a force that controls a certain thing. There is no need to blindly follow the mytholigical ideas of the ancient of any culture. We only need to follow the Arabic meanings.If the Arabs believed Christian angels were the same as Arabian Malikah we do not know. But that doesn't matter, as we do not need to follow their mythological ideas of the universe. We only need to follow the Arabic descriptions of the root meaning.
Or do you want to remain in the bronze age?
So you want to say there were prophets between Jesus and prophet Muhammad in the descendants of Jesus
-Which are not mentioned in the Quran
-Even the History does not know
-As a muslim you beleive in the intemediary prophets.
-Quran does talke about bible but does not mention this intermediary revelation (why?) and the followers of these "prophets".Please simply fill in the blank if you can (detailed circumvented explanations)
English =Angel
Arabic = ??
These dilly dally explanation indicate that concept is not clear in your mind.Thanks for you time.
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Dear Leoxyz,
You are avoiding the questions, where does the verse refer to Prophets? Nowhere. It refers to being guided to the Path. This is what we ask in Al-Fatiha. It has nothing to do wtih Prophets. So who is avoiding the truth?
And have I become to technical, you need simple language, sadly language isn't that simple, especially when we are talking about two different languages with two different mythologies and meanings. Angel refers to a creature, a being. Malikah refers to something with power and control, so it refers to an ability. Arabs used this descriptions of this ability for many things. We don't need to follow them in their understanding, we only need to follow the language.
These concepts are very clear. That you don't accept them is a different story.
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Please look at your quoted verse
688 And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path.Would you please explain this phrase "chose them"?? Are they prophets or not ? Is this word used for non -prophets in the Quran?
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2277 O you who acknowledge, kneel and
prostrate and serve your Lord and do
good that you may succeed.
2278 Strive in the cause of God properly. He
is the One who has chosen you, and He
has made no hardship for you in the
system, the creed of your father
Abraham; He is the One who named
you 'those who have peacefully
surrendered' from before as well as in
this. So let the messenger be witness
over you and you be witness over
people. So hold the contact prayer and
contribute towards betterment and hold
tight to God, He is your patron. What
an excellent Patron, and what an
excellent Supporter.Does this mean we are all Prophets now?
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Peace Arnold,
What has being guided to do with being a Prophet? Nothing! We are guided too by the Qur'an, are we Prophets? So your question is pointless.
No, and as stated before...
From their fathers is a subset. The same logic would assume all had children and brothers guided as well.
1946 He said "Are you turning away from my gods, you Abraham? If you do not stop, I will stone you, and leave me a long/life time."
127-8 In Joseph and his brothers (there) had been signs/evidences to the askers/questioners. When they said "Joseph, and his brother, (are) more lovable to our father than us, and we (are) a group, that truly our father (is) in clear/evident misguidance."
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This is a weak argument as this refers to some of them being guided or not, this does not refer to not having a father or not.
But we can agree to disagree on this.
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This is a weak argument as this refers to some of them being guided or not, this does not refer to not having a father or not.
But we can agree to disagree on this.
If stated ALL then Qur'an would contradict and I could never agree to that.
Peace
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2277 O you who acknowledge, kneel and
prostrate and serve your Lord and do
good that you may succeed.
2278 Strive in the cause of God properly. He
is the One who has chosen you, and He
has made no hardship for you in the
system, the creed of your father
Abraham; He is the One who named
you 'those who have peacefully
surrendered' from before as well as in
this. So let the messenger be witness
over you and you be witness over
people. So hold the contact prayer and
contribute towards betterment and hold
tight to God, He is your patron. What
an excellent Patron, and what an
excellent Supporter.Does this mean we are all Prophets now?
Dear Arnold
You are doing exactly what Dr Shabbir is doing on his website.
The exact verses under discussion are
(84) (85) (86) (87) (8 (89)After mentioning all these names ,their fathers ,brothers ,descendants ,Allah says these are people who were given by us
-Kitaab
-Alhukm
-NabuwwatIs this talk about prophets or not ?
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Verse 89 is clearly refering to the Prophets mentioned in verses 83 till 86, which more logical. If you disagree, then we are disagreeing.
Peace
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Peace Arnold Yasin
How about the following acts by God, what do you call them?
1- When God sent a table of food from heaven to Jesus and his Disciples
Behold! the Disciples said "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus "Fear Allah if ye have faith." (5-112) They said "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle. (5-113) Said Jesus the son of Mary "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a Table set (with viands), that there may be for us for the first and the last of us a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs). (5-114) Allah said "I will send it down unto you but if any of you after that resisteth faith I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the peoples. (5-115)
2-When God made Mary pregnant with Christ, without a male intervention
Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (3-45) "He shall speak to the people in childhood And in maturity and he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." (3-46) She said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said "Even so Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it `Be', and it is! (3-47)
3- When God made the Fire Cool
We said "O Fire! Be thou cool, and (a means of)) safety for Abraham!" (21-69)
4- When God divided the Sea
Then We told Moses by inspiration "Strike the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part become like the huge, firm mass of a mountain. (26-63)
5- When God lifted the Mountain on the top of The Children of Israeli
And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you the towering height of Mount (Sinai) (saying) "Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein perchance ye may fear Allah." (63)
6- When God spoke to Moses, made his stick a sneak, and his hand white
Has the story of Moses reached thee? (20-9) Behold, he saw a fire so he said to his family "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom or find some guidance at the fire." (10) But when he came to the fire, a voice was heard "O Moses! (11) "Verily I am thy Lord! Therefore (in My presence) put off thy shoes thou art in the sacred valley Tuwa. (12) "I have chosen thee listen then, to the inspiration (sent to thee). (13) "Verily I am Allah there is no god but I so serve thou Me, (only) and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise. (14) "Verily the Hour is coming My design is to keep it hidden for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour. (15) "Therefore let not such as believe not therein but follow their own lusts, divert thee therefrom, lest thou perish!" (16) And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?" (17) He said "It is my rod on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder for my flocks; and in it I find other uses." (1 (Allah) said "Throw it, O Moses!" (19) He threw it, and behold! it was a snake, active in motion. (20) (Allah) said "Seize it, and fear not We shall return it at once to its former condition"? (21) Now draw thy hand close to thy side it shall come forth white (and shining), without harm (or stain) as another Sign (22) "In order that We may show thee (two) of Our Greater Signs. (23)
7- How about prophet Salmon and David power that were given to them by God (e.g., speak to birds, control the wind and Jin)
I call these direct interventions by God.
Peace
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Peace,
And I call them mistranslations, misunderstandings of the Arabic idioms and contradictions with the Quranic message.
I have answered your answers in this essay
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/the-evolution-of-thinking.pdf