Question for Arnold Yasin - God does not break his laws
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Verily, when He intends a thing, His command is "Be" and it is! (36-82)
That is the decisive verse, God will intervene any time he wishes to, as he did in all the TRUE examples that I mentioned before, which you and others made their meaning look differently by a very unintelligent arguments.
God raveled the Quran in Arabic-easy-words that can be understood by an 8 years old Arabic speaker Child.
Your interpretation of the 12 examples shows your unintentional or intentional lack of understanding Arabic.
Let me ask you or any other reader a question, have any one of you saw a dream about an event, and then this event happen after that; in other words did any of you had a knowledge of future?
A very easy way out of the conversation, especially since I quoted Muhammed Asad and Muhammed Ali who had a deeper knowledge of Arabic then you or me. Plus show me one 8 year old that understand Classic Arabic from the 7th century and all its idioms, a good understanding of nature and its workings, a good understanding of history and all religions and knows the whole Qur'an so it knows how to cross-reference all verses so his understanding does not create any contradictions.
The Qur'an is easy to understand for those who use reason and reflect on everything, not quick and easy understandings..
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Very insightful points Arnold.
This is in line with my thinking as well.
One question, though (which you may have addressed elsewhere). Is not the revelation of the quran (or any other wahi from the past) not a 'miracle'? Is this not God intervening/'breaking' a law? What are your thoughts on that?
Peace.
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The whole universe consists of information
Prof. Seth Loyd
The universe is made of bits. The way in which the universe registers and processes information determines what it is and how it behaves. It has been known for more than a century that every piece of the universe - every electron, atom, and molecule - registers bits of information. It is only in the last ten years, however, with the discovery and development of quantum computers, that scientists have gained a fundamental understanding of just how that information is registered and processed. Seth Lloyd calls this fundamental understanding of the universe in terms of information processing 'the computational universe' Starting from basic concepts of physics, how all physical systems register information. account of how information is stored and processed at the level of electrons, atoms, and molecules. the information processing power of the universe can be harnessed to build quantum computers and explains how the universe itself behaves like a gigantic computer, transforming and processing information. the history of information processing from the big bang to the present day, and reveals how the computational ability of the universe promotes the evolution of complex structures such as life.
Backcover. Programming the Universe by Seth Loyd, 2006.
Scientist and philosopher Ervin Laszlo
Energy must be conveyed by something; it does not act in a vacuum. Rather, scientists are now coming to the insight that it does act in a vacuum, namely in the quantum vacuum, it is an active, physically real cosmic plenum. It conveys not only light, gravitation, and energy in its various forms, but also information; more exactly, in-formation.
There is no evident limit to the information that interfering vacuum wavefields could conserve. In the final count, they could carry information on the state of the whole universe.
Page 71. Science and the Akashic Field by Ervin Laszlo, 2007 2nd edition.
Jibril comes from Jabr and Il, jabr means to make a person independent and give it courage to take on life, il means power, ghabbar in Hebrew means link/connection, so this means Jibril is the link that has the power to make mankind independent. It is a description, not a name, it is like a radio wave. Only the Prophets could hear that specific radio wave, their brain picked up the information, and through his subconciousness it was given to his conciousness bit by bit. This is not going against nature it is not breaking the hardware nor overruling the software, it is just an email from God.
If this recording was already installed by God into the universe waiting for Muhammed to pick it up or that it was directly emailed to him into Muhammed's subconsiousness I'm still reflecting on. But there is a big difference in believing God gave information to explain us what we must do and believing God intervened through splitting a sea. In the first one, we are still the ones acting, the second one is a few humans being slave to the situation and it has no impact on the future on us. Revelation does.
Plus, all animals have an instinct. We do not have a completely layed out program in our heads. We get revelation as our instinct, so it is a law of nature in itself, an aspect of it.
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Good points, thanks for the analysis Arnold.
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Plus show me one 8 year old that understand Classic Arabic from the 7th century and all its idioms,
All the examples of verses that I mention can be easly understood by a Kid; For example
Didst thou not turn by vision to those who abandoned their homes though they were thousands (in number), for fear of death? Allah said to them "Die." then He restored them to life. For Allah is full of bounty to mankind, but most of them are ungrateful. (2-243)
A kid can understand, when reading this verse, that God put thausend of people to death and made them alive. brickwall
And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth an animal (Daba) to speak to them saying for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs (verses). (27-82)
A Kid can understand, when reading this verse, that God will send an ANIMAL that will speak to people. But if God wants to say a human, he would have said "Insan and not DABA". brickwall
So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more). (18-25)
A Four years old can understand that verse as 309 years brickwall
Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). (2-259)
A kid would understand this verse as 100 years of death and then God made him alive. brickwall
Peace giveup
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Jibril comes from Jabr and Il, jabr means to make a person independent and give it courage to take on life, il means power, ghabbar in Hebrew means link/connection, so this means Jibril is the link that has the power to make mankind independent. It is a description, not a name, it is like a radio wave.
Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and prophets and Gabriel and Michael-Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject faith. (9
How can you be an enemy to a Radio Wave! rotfl
)
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Thank you; I consider this a direct intervention of God, because he is the only one who know the future.
PeaceThen what about the "dreams about the future" that do not come true?
Lets say I dreamed that I failed in the exam.
If I really do fail, I would say "The dream was from God".
If I pass, then I would say "That was just an ordinary dream"I see a fallacy here in your argument.
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All the examples of verses that I mention can be easly understood by a Kid; For example
Didst thou not turn by vision to those who abandoned their homes though they were thousands (in number), for fear of death? Allah said to them "Die." then He restored them to life. For Allah is full of bounty to mankind, but most of them are ungrateful. (2-243)
A kid can understand, when reading this verse, that God put thausend of people to death and made them alive. brickwall
And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), We shall produce from the earth an animal (Daba) to speak to them saying for that mankind did not believe with assurance in our Signs (verses). (27-82)
A Kid can understand, when reading this verse, that God will send an ANIMAL that will speak to people. But if God wants to say a human, he would have said "Insan and not DABA". brickwall
So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more). (18-25)
A Four years old can understand that verse as 309 years brickwall
Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). (2-259)
A kid would understand this verse as 100 years of death and then God made him alive. brickwall
Peace giveup
Peace,
The Qur' an says we me must understand nature (3191) and we must use our reason reflect everything. You think a kid can also understand the verses on inheritance, divorce, government, marriage and warfare? And you want to use a kid's reasoning? That a kid can read it doesn't mean he understands it in the way it should be understood. The Qur'an addresses the mature and adult people who use reason. You use your "kid's understanding" and I will use my reason.
And your own fallacy in Arabic is already shown, even in modern Arabic "dabba min ardh" is used for everything that can walk on the earth. And Dabba is also used for us when all creatures are addressed, 1649, 1661, 2445 and many more. So we are also addresses as Dabba in the Qur'an.
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Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and prophets and Gabriel and Michael-Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject faith. (9
How can you be an enemy to a Radio Wave! rotfl
)
How can you be an enemy to a mythological angel? That is even more absurd. The verse reflects on the point that people will dislike the power revelation given to certain individuals, as the revelation takes away their power over the people.
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http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch018-65.pdf
He understands it as representing the deviation of Christianity after 300 years.
So they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, and (some) add nine (more). (18-25)
Along with their companion which reminded me today of the verse when taking this picture...
http//i26.tinypic.com/112d8pl.jpg
1818 ...and their dog stretching forth his two forelegs at the entrance.
Suspended Animation Fact or fiction?
http//www.firstscience.com/home/articles/humans/suspended-animation-fact-or-fiction_37121.html
The Art of hibernation on-demand
After watching a documentary about underground caves on PBS, Roth got an idea about how to induce metabolic flexibility in humans. The television show explained how cave explorers risk encountering the gas hydrogen sulfide, which in high concentrations can immediately render a person unconscious.
Hydrogen sulfide is toxic flammable gas found not only in caves but is produced by volcanoes, hot springs, and bacterial break down of organic matter in swamps and sewers. One of its most notable features is the foul odor of rotten eggs.
Hydrogen sulfide binds with iron in cytochrome enzymes, disrupting a critical step in a process called oxidative phosphorylation, in which oxygen is burned to produce energy in the form of a substance called ATP. By blocking oxygen from binding to the iron, hydrogen sulfide stops cellular respiration and energy production completely. When energy production is inhibited, body temperature and metabolic rate are severely reduced.
Enzymes exist in the body that can detoxify hydrogen sulfide by oxidation to (harmless) sulfate. As a result, low levels of sulfide may be tolerated indefinitely. However, at higher levels it can poison several systems in the body although the nervous system is the most affected.
Roth hypothesized that perhaps he could prevent death in low oxygen situations by adding agents such as hydrogen sulfide that decrease metabolic activity by inhibiting oxygen utilization and induce suspended animation. Suspended animation refers to the state where all observable life processes are stopped but the animal can later resume its normal function.
Peace
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Suspended Animation Fact or fiction?
http//www.firstscience.com/home/articles/humans/suspended-animation-fact-or-fiction_37121.html
The Art of hibernation on-demand
After watching a documentary about underground caves on PBS, Roth got an idea about how to induce metabolic flexibility in humans. The television show explained how cave explorers risk encountering the gas hydrogen sulfide, which in high concentrations can immediately render a person unconscious.
Hydrogen sulfide is toxic flammable gas found not only in caves but is produced by volcanoes, hot springs, and bacterial break down of organic matter in swamps and sewers. One of its most notable features is the foul odor of rotten eggs.
Hydrogen sulfide binds with iron in cytochrome enzymes, disrupting a critical step in a process called oxidative phosphorylation, in which oxygen is burned to produce energy in the form of a substance called ATP. By blocking oxygen from binding to the iron, hydrogen sulfide stops cellular respiration and energy production completely. When energy production is inhibited, body temperature and metabolic rate are severely reduced.
Enzymes exist in the body that can detoxify hydrogen sulfide by oxidation to (harmless) sulfate. As a result, low levels of sulfide may be tolerated indefinitely. However, at higher levels it can poison several systems in the body although the nervous system is the most affected.
Roth hypothesized that perhaps he could prevent death in low oxygen situations by adding agents such as hydrogen sulfide that decrease metabolic activity by inhibiting oxygen utilization and induce suspended animation. Suspended animation refers to the state where all observable life processes are stopped but the animal can later resume its normal function.
Peace,
Interesting, thanks for sharing. And again it proves that no miracle needs to have happened. The universe is flawless and full of suprising possibilities.
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How can you be an enemy to a mythological angel? That is even more absurd. The verse reflects on the point that people will dislike the power revelation given to certain individuals, as the revelation takes away their power over the people.
If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; but if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe and furthermore, the angels will back (him) up. (66-4)
what do you think about that, Gabriel is a protector along with God and believers.
Peace,
Interesting, thanks for sharing. And again it proves that no miracle needs to have happened. The universe is flawless and full of suprising possibilities.
That does not mean preserving the body for 309 years.
Peace,
You think a kid can also understand the verses on inheritance, divorce, government, marriage and warfare? And you want to use a kid's reasoning?
A kid can understand the verses that I mentioned regarding the 12 Examples, and not the complecated ones.
And your own fallacy in Arabic is already shown, even in modern Arabic "dabba min ardh" is used for everything that can walk on the earth. And Dabba is also used for us when all creatures are addressed, 1649, 1661, 2445 and many more. So we are also addresses as Dabba in the Qur'an.
Daba can be used to mention any life form that walks on earth; but if God wanted to say a Human being Messenger, he would have said it "a human being". Instead, he said "Dabba", which would means an animal to any Arabic speaker.
Please let me know where in the Quran that God ever mentioned a Dabba that preaches humans? (All the verses that you mentioned can be interpreted as Animals only, or animals and humans).
And Finally, The reason that God will send an animal is because God have been sending humans, and at the end he will send a talking animal as a ?Sign for People?.Then what about the "dreams about the future" that do not come true?
That would not be a dream about the future simply because it did not happend. What I said is a dream that would becomes true in the future.
Peace
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Peace,
Gabriel is a protector along with God and believers.
The Revelation shows us how to protect ourselves, so the force that brought it is part of the protection.
That does not mean preserving the body for 309 years.
Agree, this is why I agree with Muhammed Asad and other great thinkers.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 34
This obviously connects with the "idle guesses" mentioned in the first paragraph of verse 22 above-guesses refuted by the subsequent statements, "My Sustainer knows best how many they were" in verse 22, and "God knows best how long they remained " in verse 26. This was, in particular, the view ofAbd Allah ibn Masud, whose copy of the Qur'an is said to have contained the words, "And they said, `They remained.. .'," etc. (which was probably a marginal, explanatory remark added by Ibn Mas'ud), as well as of Qatadah and of Matar al-Warraq (Tabari, Zamakhshari and Ibn Kathir). My interpolation, at the beginning of the verse, of the words "some people asserted" is based on the word galu ("they said" used by Ibn Mas?ud in his marginal note.A kid can understand the verses that I mentioned regarding the 12 Examples, and not the complecated ones.
Who says that the literal meaning is correct? So we can agree to disagree. I see God says this universe is flawless (506) and that He doesn't change this universe (3030), and as the Qur'an contains no contradictions, this means we must look out for allegories when we believe contradictions arise. This I my understanding and is shared by many great thinkers throughout Muslim history and present. And the literal reading creates contradictions in my eyes and takes away the important deep meaning behind it.
Daba can be used to mention any life form that walks on earth; but if God wanted to say a Human being Messenger, he would have said it "a human being". Instead, he said "Dabba", which would means an animal to any Arabic speaker.
Please let me know where in the Quran that God ever mentioned a Dabba that preaches humans? (All the verses that you mentioned can be interpreted as Animals only, or animals and humans).
And Finally, The reason that God will send an animal is because God have been sending humans, and at the end he will send a talking animal as a Sign for People.That is a subjective opinion, not a conclusive one.
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Peace,
The Revelation shows us how to protect ourselves, so the force that brought it is part of the protection.
Agree, this is why I agree with Muhammed Asad and other great thinkers.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 34
This obviously connects with the "idle guesses" mentioned in the first paragraph of verse 22 above-guesses refuted by the subsequent statements, "My Sustainer knows best how many they were" in verse 22, and "God knows best how long they remained " in verse 26. This was, in particular, the view ofAbd Allah ibn Masud, whose copy of the Qur'an is said to have contained the words, "And they said, `They remained.. .'," etc. (which was probably a marginal, explanatory remark added by Ibn Mas'ud), as well as of Qatadah and of Matar al-Warraq (Tabari, Zamakhshari and Ibn Kathir). My interpolation, at the beginning of the verse, of the words "some people asserted" is based on the word galu ("they said" used by Ibn Mas?ud in his marginal note.Verse 22 speaks about people who were speaking about the count of the people of the Cave and not how long they stayed; How long they stayed was God answer, in verse 25, which was 309 years.
Peace,
Who says that the literal meaning is correct? So we can agree to disagree. I see God says this universe is flawless (506) and that He doesn't change this universe (3030), and as the Qur'an contains no contradictions, this means we must look out for allegories when we believe contradictions arise. This I my understanding and is shared by many great thinkers throughout Muslim history and present. And the literal reading creates contradictions in my eyes and takes away the important deep meaning behind it.
That is a subjective opinion, not a conclusive one.
27-1; 36-69; 54-17,22, 32, 40; 12-2; 39-28; 41-3; 41-44; are some of the verses that show that the Quran contain a very simple, clear, and decisive meaning that nobody can say it was to hard to understand.
Verse 50-6
Do they not look at the sky above them? How We have made it and adorned, it and there are no flaws in it?God clearly speaks about the creation of the Shy, which no body can doubt that it is flawless. But that cannot be interpreted as God would not intervene if he wishes, I do not see any relationship.
So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the faith (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind no change in Allah creation that is the standard Religion but most among mankind understand not. (30-30)
There will be no change in the way God created humans and the way he created their GENE CODE SYSTEM; did you know that human Genes? Coding is a perfect system, and once this system changes we get sick until it gets fixed (by our immune system or antiviral medicine); did you know that all the viral diseases are caused by Gene Code
Malfunctioning (Gene Mutation).
My interpretation of that is God Coded our body in a way that would function better when we straight our Deen according to God Commandments. What do you think?
There is nothing in the verse suggest that God would not intervene if he want; as i showed you in my 12 examples and other many examples that I did not mention (e.g., God speaking directly to Moses, The Salah Camel, Youns staying in the Fish stomach, Joseph dreams that came true and the prison companion dreams)Peace
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Peace,
And the Qur' an also says it is for people who reason and reflect and take the Qur' an in its entire message and do not create contradictions in their understanding. A kid has no real reason and reflection. And in my view your understanding creates many contradictions which I have discussed in my essays and previous forum discussions. And is it really that hard to understand stories as allegories? Easy to understand is not the same as reading everything literal.
We can agree to disagree.
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Peace,
And the Qur' an also says it is for people who reason and reflect and take the Qur' an in its entire message and do not create contradictions in their understanding. A kid has no real reason and reflection. And in my view your understanding creates many contradictions which I have discussed in my essays and previous forum discussions. And is it really that hard to understand stories as allegories? Easy to understand is not the same as reading everything literal.
We can agree to disagree.
Your way of understanding the Quran led you to disblieve all the known stories that I told you; but my way led me to not cancel out any thing from the Quran and disblieve its verses (the clear signs)
Peace -
Your way of understanding the Quran led you to disblieve all the known stories that I told you; but my way led me to not cancel out any thing from the Quran and disblieve its verses (the clear signs)
PeacePeace,
I believe every word in the Qur'an to be true, that we do not agree on the meanings of some verses has nothing to do with belief or dis-belief in the Qur'an. But with dis-agreeing with each other' s understanding, neither of us have authority over the truth. I pity you if you don't see the difference...
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Peace all,
Please consider this reading; it clarifies the issue of the people of the cave.
PM translation of 1822-26
They will say ?Three, the fourth is their dog.? And they say ?Five, the sixth is their dog,? guessing at what they do not know. And they say ?Seven, and the eighth is their dog.? Say ?My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few.? So do not debate in them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.
And do not simply say of something ?I will do this tomorrow.?
?Except if God wills.? And remember your Lord if you forget and say ?Perhaps my Lord will guide me to what is nearer to this in wisdom.?
And (they will say? )* they remained in their cave for three hundred years, and increased by nine.
Say ?God is fully aware how long they remained, to Him is the unseen of heavens and Earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides Him any ally, nor does He share in His judgment with anyone.?
And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord?s Scripture, there is no changing His words, and you will not find besides Him any refuge.*my addition
If you pay attention to the construction of these phrases, you will see the veracity of adding (they will say?) in the beginning of verse 25. And when considering this reading, you will see the intended meaning of this paragraph; it is not important how many they were or how long they have stayed in the cave, no need to argue about these issues because the lesson from this story is more important.
One of the lessons that I see in this story is that it is describing a group of ancient humans starting to become aware of time (or days) flowing, and that each day is a new day not the same day. I would like to attract your attention that this concept seems easy to grasp nowadays that it almost seems innate, but it took humankind thousands of years to understand and quantify it using the sun?s movement across the sky, which is mentioned in some verses before.
These are some points to consider, and only the god surely knows the true meaning.
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Peace all,
Please consider this reading; it clarifies the issue of the people of the cave.
PM translation of 1822-26
They will say ?Three, the fourth is their dog.? And they say ?Five, the sixth is their dog,? guessing at what they do not know. And they say ?Seven, and the eighth is their dog.? Say ?My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few.? So do not debate in them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.
And do not simply say of something ?I will do this tomorrow.?
?Except if God wills.? And remember your Lord if you forget and say ?Perhaps my Lord will guide me to what is nearer to this in wisdom.?
And (they will say? )* they remained in their cave for three hundred years, and increased by nine.
Say ?God is fully aware how long they remained, to Him is the unseen of heavens and Earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides Him any ally, nor does He share in His judgment with anyone.?
And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord?s Scripture, there is no changing His words, and you will not find besides Him any refuge.*my addition
If you pay attention to the construction of these phrases, you will see the veracity of adding (they will say?) in the beginning of verse 25. And when considering this reading, you will see the intended meaning of this paragraph; it is not important how many they were or how long they have stayed in the cave, no need to argue about these issues because the lesson from this story is more important.
One of the lessons that I see in this story is that it is describing a group of ancient humans starting to become aware of time (or days) flowing, and that each day is a new day not the same day. I would like to attract your attention that this concept seems easy to grasp nowadays that it almost seems innate, but it took humankind thousands of years to understand and quantify it using the sun?s movement across the sky, which is mentioned in some verses before.
These are some points to consider, and only the god surely knows the true meaning.
Peace
(٠
Behold, the youths betook themselves to the Cave they said "Our Lord! Bestow on us Mercy from Thyself, and dispose of our affair for us in the right way! (10) Then We drew over their ears, for a number of years, in the Cave, (11)
Please note that God drew over ?Fa-Darabna? their ear, in the Cave, for a number of years. In other words, God made them deaf, in the Cave, for number of years.
(٢
Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of years they had tarried! (12)
Then, God roused (awaken) them from the condition that they were at.
(٨
Thou wouldst have deemed them awake, whilst they were asleep, and We turned them on their right and their left sides their dog stretching forth his two forelegs on the threshold if thou hadst come up on to them, thou wouldst have certainly turned back from them in flight, and wouldst certainly have been filled with terror of them. (1
Please note how God precisely describing their Condition as
1-People, when looking at them, would think that they are AWAKE ?Ikazan?; In other words, their eyes are wide open.
2-But they are ASLEEP ?Rokodan?. (While their eyes open)
3-God moved them around from the left side to the right side.
4-Their dog?s front legs were stretched on the threshold.
5-If any body would see them, he would runaway from them and would get so terrified.As far as the verse 25, there is no mentioning that ?some would say? 300 years;
but the verse says ?they stayed for 300 years and increased by nine?, which seams that God is making this statement.My argument with Arnold is about the existing of Miracles by God direct intervening, which he is arguing that they do not exist.
How can you argue against Jesus Birth, which are showed clearly in the Quran?
How can you argue about God directly speaking to Moses?How can you argue about the person whom God put him to death along with his donkey for ?100 years?. Please read the following verse and tell me what do you understand it
(٩
Or the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said "Oh! how shall Allah bring it to life, after its death?" So Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said (God) "How long didst thou stayed?" He said (the man) "(perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said (God) "Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; he said (God) "but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey and that We may make of thee a Sign unto the people Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh!"; When this was shown clearly to him he said (the man) "I know that Allah hath power over all things." (2-259)
Peace