Where are the Sacred Mosque and the Farthest Mosque located?

Zidane

Peace brother belalhammad,

Let me share some views I understand of this topic...

sacred mosque = dome of the rock (in Jerusalem)
Details
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/moh.htm
farthest mosque = near paradise
Details
171 Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from the Sacred Temple to the most distant temple which We had blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

Observation 2.1 From "Sacred Temple to the most distant temple" - this is a journey between two points sacred temple >>> distant temple. NOT sacred temple >>> distant temple >>> heavens (this would be 3 points, not what's said in quran).

Observation 2.2 From "so that We may show him of Our signs" - the signs & location are given details
531 As the star descended.
532 Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
533 Nor does he speak from personal desire.
534 It is a divine inspiration.
535 He has been taught by One mighty in power.
536 Free from any defect, he became stable.
537 While he was at the highest horizon.
538 Then he drew nearer by moving down.
539 Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer.
5310 He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed.
5311 The heart did not invent what it saw.
5312 Do you doubt him in what he saw?
5313 And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
5314 At the ultimate point.
5315 Near it is the eternal Paradise.
5316 The whole place was overwhelmed.
5317 The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.
5318 He has seen from the great signs of his Lord.

I hope this makes sense.

Another thing worth saying is that these two issues are not clearly/explicitly mentioned in the quran "for us" (exactly "where" they are), but it would be clearly known the the prophet and the believers who were with him - they knew and needed to do many things/missions there (as the mission of the messenger is to clearly deliver the message, for people to come to obey willingly (kneel), accept the one God as thier true lord (prostrate to God) - since Abraham's time, command center, gathering point(qibla) etc... then they were chased out of jerusalem, then they had to come back and conqour it again.

Therefore, "for us", one might think that knowing their "location" doesn't make you be a better person - it doesn't make you do more good, doesn't make you avoid/away from evil.

May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane.

unknownuser

Salam Belalhammad,

First and foremost as Taj pointed out, the verse does not indicate that prophet Muhammad is the ?abad? being referred to. Although, it may be a possibility I would consider it an unlikely possibility since the following verses go on to speak about Moses.

Here is my perspective based on the literal meaning for your consideration.

Moses may be the ?abad? referred to. Because, the following verses speak of Moses and beni Israel. We know that Moses took beni Israel from their place of worship (masjid does not necessarily refer to a building) in Egypt to a blessed place of worship far away from the persecution of the Egyptians. We are also told that God was with him during this journey and that the journey occurred during the night.
We also know that Moses and Beni Israel were shown signs during the exodus and after.

Salam,
Arnab

Jafar

Salam Belalhammad,

First and foremost as Taj pointed out, the verse does not indicate that prophet Muhammad is the ?abad? being referred to. Although, it may be a possibility I would consider it an unlikely possibility since the following verses go on to speak about Moses.

Here is my perspective based on the literal meaning for your consideration.

Moses may be the ?abad? referred to. Because, the following verses speak of Moses and beni Israel. We know that Moses took beni Israel from their place of worship (masjid does not necessarily refer to a building) in Egypt to a blessed place of worship far away from the persecution of the Egyptians. We are also told that God was with him during this journey and that the journey occurred during the night.
We also know that Moses and Beni Israel were shown signs during the exodus and after.

Salam,
Arnab

Great post brother Arnab...
Those Al-Isra actually The Great Exodus?
Thus Isra = Journey / Exodus?

It is also makes sense to relate that to the meanings of Isra-El which could be "Journeyed By God".
Thus Beney Isra-El is actually "(A group of) People being Journey-ed by God", a perfect name for the jews, as they're many times being "journey-ed" by God. And the jews has spread (and inter-breed) with many people around the globe.

Salam

Bigmo

Great post brother Arnab...
Those Al-Isra actually The Great Exodus?
Thus Isra = Journey / Exodus?

It is also makes sense to relate that to the meanings of Isra-El which could be "Journeyed By God".
Thus Beney Isra-El is actually "(A group of) People being Journey-ed by God", a perfect name for the jews, as they're many times being "journey-ed" by God. And the jews has spread (and inter-breed) with many people around the globe.

Salam

What is the meaning of Masjid Al Haram in the Koran? Is it different from the Bayt Al Haram? Anyways the Koran clearly did not intend for us to know the exact meaning of that verse.

Wakas

peace all,

As far as I'm aware a literal translation is as follows

Glory be to the One who took His servant by night from the inviolable place of recognition/acknowledgement to the furthest/uppermost place of recognition/acknowledgement which We have blessed around, so that We may show him of Our signs/verses/ayats. Indeed, He is the Listener, the Seer.

The literal translation is about advancing one's knowledge, receiving understanding/scripture/revelation, coming to realisations etc. Now read the next verses. Does it fit?

Zidane

Peace brother Wakas,

Your suggestion seems very interesting - it seems to relate to the next verses - about God's servants acknowledging the scriptures/revelations.

However, as I'm trying to understand what you suggested, I think "masjid" in that meaning would not comply with

1821 And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that Gods promise is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued amongst themselves regarding them, so they said Erect a monument for them! Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who managed to win the argument said We will construct a temple over them.

What do you understand of this verse?

(I also currently think that the "masjid"/temple in 1821 might be the same one as the "sacred mosque/temple" - the "cave" is under the dome of the rock... "a temple over them", just a theory though.)

Peace,
Zidane.

Layth

Salam Belal,

There are Clear words that God took prophet Mohamed to a 1)LONG journey (or will not be a Miracle) at night time, 2)from Sacred Mosque (The Place where he was living) to the farthest Mosque (a Place that he never seen before).

Can anybody tell me where are the Sacred Mosque, and the Farthest Mosque located, using the Quran?

I agree with Zidane. The Restricted Temple is Jerusalem, while the Farthest Temple is outside our universe.

Hati

Peace to all

I need your help in the following topic

(&#1633

Al-Isra
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His Servant for Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque whose precincts We did bless in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the one Who heareth and seeth (all things). (1)

There are Clear words that God took prophet Mohamed to a 1)LONG journey (or will not be a Miracle) at night time, 2)from Sacred Mosque (The Place where he was living) to the farthest Mosque (a Place that he never seen before).

Can anybody tell me where are the Sacred Mosque, and the Farthest Mosque located, using the Quran?

Peace

Salam,

His Servant = Muhammad
Sacred Mosque = Mecca
Farthest Mosque = Medinah

God Bless you

Hati

unknownuser

Salam Belal,

I agree with Zidane. The Restricted Temple is Jerusalem, while the Farthest Temple is outside our universe.

Salam Zidane and Layth,

The farthest temple is outside our universe?
Did you come to this understanding using Quran? And, can you please indicate the verses that lead you to come to this understanding?
Because, after reading 151-1518 I do not see sufficient evidence to suggest that 171 is discussing the same topic. The same words are not even used.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Salam,

One more question, why is there a tendency to immediately assume that 171 is esoteric in nature and not directly related to the verses that follow?

Salam,
Arnab

Zidane

Salam Zidane and Layth,

Salam.

The farthest temple is outside our universe?

As I understand, yes, near it is paradise.

Did you come to this understanding using Quran? And, can you please indicate the verses that lead you to come to this understanding?

Yes. Already indicated in my previous 2 posts.

Because, after reading 151-1518 I do not see sufficient evidence to suggest that 171 is discussing the same topic. The same words are not even used.

I see 171 "so that We may show him of Our signs" and 531-18 "He has seen from the great signs of his Lord." talking about the same thing, same words/purpose are used.

If it doesn't seem sufficient for you, to you is your freedom of interpretation/understanding.

It does seem sufficient to me, to me is my freedom too.

Salam,

One more question, why is there a tendency to immediately assume that 171 is esoteric in nature and not directly related to the verses that follow?

Salam,
Arnab

Salam dear Arnab.

I don't see it as esoteric, and didn't post that it is esoteric or not related to the verses that follow. (By saying Wakas's suggestion seems to relate to next verses, I didn't mean that what I currently understand is opposite regarding relation)

I see that it is related

Verse 171 shows that how God took "his servant" by night to show him His signs... as linked by what I already explained to chapter 53, we can see that God gave "his servant" (whatever the method...) the scripture which was to be revealed

5310 He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed. (remember that 534 It is a divine inspiration.)

Therefore, verse 171 is talking about this scripture revelation that God gave to "his servant".
Then, in 172, God also gave the scripture to Moses too. To tell the children of Israel the same thing as in this scripture Do not believe in any besides Me.
Then, in 173, shows that Noah was a servant - this relates to using "his servant" (singular) for the messenger of this scipture revelation (The servant in 171 is the messenger 533 Nor does he speak from personal desire, 534 It is a divine inspiration.) - from context of Quran I understand that this servant whom referred in "conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed" - is the messenger Muhammad.
Then, it is being shown that this scripture revelation (via messenger Muhammad) is from God - same as the scripture God already sent to the Children of Israel (progeny of those whom God carried with Noah) via messenger Moses, by repeating what was already decreed.

Another point worth mentioning is that this understanding (God took Muhammad to the farthest mosque to reveal this scripture Quran, to Muhmmad during the "night journey" as described), is confirmed by chapter 97

971 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.

Peace to you and everyone.

May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane.

Wakas

peace bro Zidane,

As a general rule, I do not agree that a word must mean the same thing in every occurrence, but I definitely understand your point being brought up and consider it reasonable.

Having said that, I have not thoroughly studied the verse you referenced to see if it translated accurately (this must be checked), nor examined the story. I do not have my resources with me at the moment so I cant comment. However, I would say that the preposition "ma" (e.g. from masjid) can mean a mode/manner/place of implementation, so theoretically it can be physical or non-physical.

It is interesting the literal translation fits the context perfectly... is this a mere coincidence? Perhaps.

Zidane

Peace brother Wakas,

Thanks for the explanation. I always learn many new things from you, thanks for sharing.

I would like to add that the "physical" translation of Masjid as mosque/temple would perfectly fit the context as well - please consider the ending of my previous post above.

Peace & May God Bless,
Zidane.

Wakas

peace brother Zidane,

I'm not sure if you have read the previous discussions on the "night of decree" between bro Ayman and sis Marie, if I recall correctly, but I believe some progress was made in determining its meaning.

From 1821 it does seem to be referring to a physical building, but as I said, as far as I'm aware, "ma" can indicate both physical and non-physical, and I do not follow a "one meaning for all" approach. So, even if it does mean a physical building in this sign, I'm not sure how far that can be taken. All occurrences are in PRL for anyone to study

masjid n.m. (pl. masajid) 2114, 2144, 2149, 2150, 2187, 2191, 2196, 2217, 52, 729, 731, 834, 97, 917, 918, 919, 928, 9107, 9108, 171, 171, 177, 1821, 2225, 2240, 4825, 4827, 7218

Also, I believe bro Ayman discussed when Masjid Al Aqsa was actually built, historically, and it poses problems if anyone were to take it to mean that actual building. Not saying you do, I'm just saying.

The evidence would have to be weighed up, as in most cases.

unknownuser

Salam Zidane,

Thank you for explaining your understanding of 171 in detail.
While I understand how you came to your understanding, I do not hold the same opinion, based on the following

Verse 171 shows that how God took "his servant" by night to show him His signs... as linked by what I already explained to chapter 53, we can see that God gave "his servant" (whatever the method...) the scripture which was to be revealed

5310 He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed. (remember that 534 It is a divine inspiration.)

Therefore, verse 171 is talking about this scripture revelation that God gave to "his servant".

Surah 53 does not mention Muhammad's name. So this (in my opinion) is not sufficient evidence.

Then, in 172, God also gave the scripture to Moses too. To tell the children of Israel the same thing as in this scripture ?Do not believe in any besides Me.?
Then, in 173, shows that Noah was a servant - this relates to using "his servant" (singular) for the messenger of this scipture revelation (The servant in 171 is the messenger 533 Nor does he speak from personal desire, 534 It is a divine inspiration.) - from context of Quran I understand that this servant whom referred in "conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed" - is the messenger Muhammad.

There were other messengers who were given scripture and inspiration, included Moses.

2652

Free-Minds And We inspired Moses "Take away My servants, for you will be followed."

Then, it is being shown that this scripture revelation (via messenger Muhammad) is from God - same as the scripture God already sent to the Children of Israel (progeny of those whom God carried with Noah) via messenger Moses, by repeating what was already decreed.

With all due respect, there is no mention of Muhammad in Surah 53 or in Surah 17 for it to be conclusive that Muhammad is the one spoken of in 171

Another point worth mentioning is that this understanding (God took Muhammad to the farthest mosque to reveal this scripture Quran, to Muhmmad during the "night journey" as described), is confirmed by chapter 97

971 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.

Surah 97 does not mention Muhammad by name. It does not mention the word masjid or traveling. It speaks of revelation but I see no evidence of confirmation of your understanding in the last quote above.

Salam,
Arnab

Layth

Salam Arnab,

I bellieve it is irrefutbble that sura 53 is speaking about the prophet mohammed (your friend, dos not speak of his own, it is a divine inspiration, taught by the most mighty, etc..).

TAJ

Salam Layth, and all

Salam Arnab,

I bellieve it is irrefutbble that sura 53 is speaking about the prophet mohammed (your friend, dos not speak of his own, it is a divine inspiration, taught by the most mighty, etc..).

How could 'ssa7ibukum' be translated as 'your friend'?

Layth

Salam,

Sa7ib can be used for both friend and companion.

See examples 436, 940, 18345429, 1239, etc..

TAJ

Salam Layth,

Salam,

Sa7ib can be used for both friend and companion.

See examples 436, 940, 18345429, 1239, etc..

I disagree. The word 'sa7ib' couldn't mean friend. The difference in the meaning of the two words is huge. The people who doubted Muhammad and attempted to kill him were certainly not his friends. Yousif's inmates were not his friends, and so goes the rest of ayat you mentioned as examples.

Zidane

Salam Zidane,

Thank you for explaining your understanding of 171 in detail.
While I understand how you came to your understanding, I do not hold the same opinion, based on the following

Salam dear Arnab. You're welcome. My pleasure.

Surah 53 does not mention Muhammad's name. So this (in my opinion) is not sufficient evidence.

I think I already described and see how they linked in harmony.

I do understand that not everybody sees the same thing in the same way.

As I said, the evidence in the Quran on this topic is not too direct/open for us anyway - those verses are rather mainly directed to the Children of Israel whom Muhammad came to (after Jesus). I'm sure it would be very clear to them - so I understand that you may have liked to have more evidence, but it's probably not directed to you and me and it doesn't actually make us be a better person or be more away from evil by knowing these details anyway.

There were other messengers who were given scripture and inspiration, included Moses.

2652

Free-Minds And We inspired Moses "Take away My servants, for you will be followed."

With all due respect, there is no mention of Muhammad in Surah 53 or in Surah 17 for it to be conclusive that Muhammad is the one spoken of in 171

For sure, there were other messengers from God.

As for this theme of verses, apart from what I already explained, there are veres like the theme of 171-3 in many places in the quran. That is
Proving to the Children of Israel that this revelation - coming via this messenger - is from the same God that gave them the scripture via Moses and suggesting them come back to monotheism. You can consider the theme from 240 onwards as an example. Therefore, considering the cotext of the quran and the verses/explanation in my previous posts, the messenger referred to in this theme of verses is clearly Muhammad to me.

Surah 97 does not mention Muhammad by name. It does not mention the word masjid or traveling. It speaks of revelation but I see no evidence of confirmation of your understanding in the last quote above.

Yes, it doesn't by name - as do many other verses througout the quran.

Apart from what I already described, let me make a little summary of what I see for you

171 His servant - 5310 His servant
171 Farthest mosque - 5314,15 ultimate point, near paradise.
171 blessed around - 5316 overwhelmed
171 so that We may show him of Our signs - 5318 He has seen from the great signs of his Lord.

Peace & may God Bless,
Zidane.