Where are the Sacred Mosque and the Farthest Mosque located?
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Salam,
One more question, why is there a tendency to immediately assume that 171 is esoteric in nature and not directly related to the verses that follow?
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Zidane and Layth,
Salam.
The farthest temple is outside our universe?
As I understand, yes, near it is paradise.
Did you come to this understanding using Quran? And, can you please indicate the verses that lead you to come to this understanding?
Yes. Already indicated in my previous 2 posts.
Because, after reading 151-1518 I do not see sufficient evidence to suggest that 171 is discussing the same topic. The same words are not even used.
I see 171 "so that We may show him of Our signs" and 531-18 "He has seen from the great signs of his Lord." talking about the same thing, same words/purpose are used.
If it doesn't seem sufficient for you, to you is your freedom of interpretation/understanding.
It does seem sufficient to me, to me is my freedom too.
Salam,
One more question, why is there a tendency to immediately assume that 171 is esoteric in nature and not directly related to the verses that follow?
Salam,
ArnabSalam dear Arnab.
I don't see it as esoteric, and didn't post that it is esoteric or not related to the verses that follow. (By saying Wakas's suggestion seems to relate to next verses, I didn't mean that what I currently understand is opposite regarding relation)
I see that it is related
- Verse 171 shows that how God took "his servant" by night to show him His signs... as linked by what I already explained to chapter 53, we can see that God gave "his servant" (whatever the method...) the scripture which was to be revealed
5310 He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed. (remember that 534 It is a divine inspiration.)
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Therefore, verse 171 is talking about this scripture revelation that God gave to "his servant".
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Then, in 172, God also gave the scripture to Moses too. To tell the children of Israel the same thing as in this scripture Do not believe in any besides Me.
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Then, in 173, shows that Noah was a servant - this relates to using "his servant" (singular) for the messenger of this scipture revelation (The servant in 171 is the messenger 533 Nor does he speak from personal desire, 534 It is a divine inspiration.) - from context of Quran I understand that this servant whom referred in "conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed" - is the messenger Muhammad.
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Then, it is being shown that this scripture revelation (via messenger Muhammad) is from God - same as the scripture God already sent to the Children of Israel (progeny of those whom God carried with Noah) via messenger Moses, by repeating what was already decreed.
Another point worth mentioning is that this understanding (God took Muhammad to the farthest mosque to reveal this scripture Quran, to Muhmmad during the "night journey" as described), is confirmed by chapter 97
971 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
Peace to you and everyone.
May God Guide & Bless,
Zidane. -
peace bro Zidane,
As a general rule, I do not agree that a word must mean the same thing in every occurrence, but I definitely understand your point being brought up and consider it reasonable.
Having said that, I have not thoroughly studied the verse you referenced to see if it translated accurately (this must be checked), nor examined the story. I do not have my resources with me at the moment so I cant comment. However, I would say that the preposition "ma" (e.g. from masjid) can mean a mode/manner/place of implementation, so theoretically it can be physical or non-physical.
It is interesting the literal translation fits the context perfectly... is this a mere coincidence? Perhaps.
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Peace brother Wakas,
Thanks for the explanation. I always learn many new things from you, thanks for sharing.
I would like to add that the "physical" translation of Masjid as mosque/temple would perfectly fit the context as well - please consider the ending of my previous post above.
Peace & May God Bless,
Zidane. -
peace brother Zidane,
I'm not sure if you have read the previous discussions on the "night of decree" between bro Ayman and sis Marie, if I recall correctly, but I believe some progress was made in determining its meaning.
From 1821 it does seem to be referring to a physical building, but as I said, as far as I'm aware, "ma" can indicate both physical and non-physical, and I do not follow a "one meaning for all" approach. So, even if it does mean a physical building in this sign, I'm not sure how far that can be taken. All occurrences are in PRL for anyone to study
masjid n.m. (pl. masajid) 2114, 2144, 2149, 2150, 2187, 2191, 2196, 2217, 52, 729, 731, 834, 97, 917, 918, 919, 928, 9107, 9108, 171, 171, 177, 1821, 2225, 2240, 4825, 4827, 7218
Also, I believe bro Ayman discussed when Masjid Al Aqsa was actually built, historically, and it poses problems if anyone were to take it to mean that actual building. Not saying you do, I'm just saying.
The evidence would have to be weighed up, as in most cases.
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Salam Zidane,
Thank you for explaining your understanding of 171 in detail.
While I understand how you came to your understanding, I do not hold the same opinion, based on the following- Verse 171 shows that how God took "his servant" by night to show him His signs... as linked by what I already explained to chapter 53, we can see that God gave "his servant" (whatever the method...) the scripture which was to be revealed
5310 He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed. (remember that 534 It is a divine inspiration.)
- Therefore, verse 171 is talking about this scripture revelation that God gave to "his servant".
Surah 53 does not mention Muhammad's name. So this (in my opinion) is not sufficient evidence.
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Then, in 172, God also gave the scripture to Moses too. To tell the children of Israel the same thing as in this scripture ?Do not believe in any besides Me.?
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Then, in 173, shows that Noah was a servant - this relates to using "his servant" (singular) for the messenger of this scipture revelation (The servant in 171 is the messenger 533 Nor does he speak from personal desire, 534 It is a divine inspiration.) - from context of Quran I understand that this servant whom referred in "conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed" - is the messenger Muhammad.
There were other messengers who were given scripture and inspiration, included Moses.
2652
Free-Minds And We inspired Moses "Take away My servants, for you will be followed."
- Then, it is being shown that this scripture revelation (via messenger Muhammad) is from God - same as the scripture God already sent to the Children of Israel (progeny of those whom God carried with Noah) via messenger Moses, by repeating what was already decreed.
With all due respect, there is no mention of Muhammad in Surah 53 or in Surah 17 for it to be conclusive that Muhammad is the one spoken of in 171
Another point worth mentioning is that this understanding (God took Muhammad to the farthest mosque to reveal this scripture Quran, to Muhmmad during the "night journey" as described), is confirmed by chapter 97
971 We have sent it down in the Night of Decree.
Surah 97 does not mention Muhammad by name. It does not mention the word masjid or traveling. It speaks of revelation but I see no evidence of confirmation of your understanding in the last quote above.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Layth, and all
Salam Arnab,
I bellieve it is irrefutbble that sura 53 is speaking about the prophet mohammed (your friend, dos not speak of his own, it is a divine inspiration, taught by the most mighty, etc..).
How could 'ssa7ibukum' be translated as 'your friend'?
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Salam Layth,
Salam,
Sa7ibcan be used for both friend and companion.See examples 436, 940, 18345429, 1239, etc..
I disagree. The word 'sa7ib' couldn't mean friend. The difference in the meaning of the two words is huge. The people who doubted Muhammad and attempted to kill him were certainly not his friends. Yousif's inmates were not his friends, and so goes the rest of ayat you mentioned as examples.
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Salam Zidane,
Thank you for explaining your understanding of 171 in detail.
While I understand how you came to your understanding, I do not hold the same opinion, based on the followingSalam dear Arnab. You're welcome. My pleasure.
Surah 53 does not mention Muhammad's name. So this (in my opinion) is not sufficient evidence.
I think I already described and see how they linked in harmony.
I do understand that not everybody sees the same thing in the same way.
As I said, the evidence in the Quran on this topic is not too direct/open for us anyway - those verses are rather mainly directed to the Children of Israel whom Muhammad came to (after Jesus). I'm sure it would be very clear to them - so I understand that you may have liked to have more evidence, but it's probably not directed to you and me and it doesn't actually make us be a better person or be more away from evil by knowing these details anyway.
There were other messengers who were given scripture and inspiration, included Moses.
2652
Free-Minds And We inspired Moses "Take away My servants, for you will be followed."
With all due respect, there is no mention of Muhammad in Surah 53 or in Surah 17 for it to be conclusive that Muhammad is the one spoken of in 171
For sure, there were other messengers from God.
As for this theme of verses, apart from what I already explained, there are veres like the theme of 171-3 in many places in the quran. That is
Proving to the Children of Israel that this revelation - coming via this messenger - is from the same God that gave them the scripture via Moses and suggesting them come back to monotheism. You can consider the theme from 240 onwards as an example. Therefore, considering the cotext of the quran and the verses/explanation in my previous posts, the messenger referred to in this theme of verses is clearly Muhammad to me.Surah 97 does not mention Muhammad by name. It does not mention the word masjid or traveling. It speaks of revelation but I see no evidence of confirmation of your understanding in the last quote above.
Yes, it doesn't by name - as do many other verses througout the quran.
Apart from what I already described, let me make a little summary of what I see for you
171 His servant - 5310 His servant
171 Farthest mosque - 5314,15 ultimate point, near paradise.
171 blessed around - 5316 overwhelmed
171 so that We may show him of Our signs - 5318 He has seen from the great signs of his Lord.Peace & may God Bless,
Zidane. -
Peace
I appreciate all your opinions and hard work in trying to reach the truth; but I think I was able to reach an opinion about the two Mosques, which I want to share with you
found it http//www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP56403, phew i was begining to loose hope until i asked for god's help and thus remembered i had previously discovered it by being linked at the bottom of a wikipedia article about Isra and Mi'raj. alhamdililah. i just enjoyed re-reading the article. it makes some good points. i also wondered about this issue at one one stage. thanks for reminding me of it.
what do you think?Thank God for making you remember where was that article. Also, thank you for your consideration.
Brother and Sister, when I read the article that was suggested by the above quotation, I found that the author can be right only about the part of the Farthest Mosque.
I?m 100% sure that the Sacred Mosque is the one in Baka, where Prophet Mohamed struggled in the beginning of his Prophet hood.
Thus, the Farthest Mosque is the one that God took him (helped him to reach safe) to, in a journey that started at night. That Mosque is the "Madina Mosque" where the Prophet migrated to. (please read the artical for more details)
As far as the Isra?a and Marrag, Chapter 53 is were it was mentioned(٥ (٦ (٧ (٨ (٩ (٠ (١ (٢ (٣ (٤ (٥ (٦ (٧ (٨
He was taught by one mighty in Power, (5) Endued with Wisdom For he appeared (6) While he was in the highest part of the horizon (7) Then he approached and came closer And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer; (9) So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey. (10) The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw. (11) Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw? (12) For indeed he saw him at a second descent. (13) Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass (14) Near it is the Garden of Abode. (15) Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!) (16) (His) sight never swerved nor did it go wrong! (17) For truly did he see of the Signs of his Lord the Greatest! (1
May be I?m right or may be I?m wrong; but I feel that I?m more comfortable with this answer, Madina Mosque is the Farthest Mosque and Baka Moaque is the Sacred Mosque, until some thing new comes up.
Peace
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Salam Layth,
I disagree. The word 'sa7ib' couldn't mean friend. The difference in the meaning of the two words is huge. The people who doubted Muhammad and attempted to kill him were certainly not his friends. Yousif's inmates were not his friends, and so goes the rest of ayat you mentioned as examples.
Salaam Taj
His friends doubted him when he spoke of his nocturne journey. It was not a doubt about his revalation because the verse reminds them by mentioning the first/previous visit by Gibrael (which they obviously believed in)
(He was taught by one mighty in Power, (5) Endued with Wisdom For he appeared (6) While he was in the highest part of the horizon (7) Then he approached and came closer And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer; (9) So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey
