Did God punish and kill innocent children too?

unknownuser

It doesn?t say Al Insaan (human) either.

I never said it did. One can not say either human or angel.

The servant had to be an angel because no human has the authority to kill someone for being an unbeliever and much less someone who will be an unbeliever. The angel messenger was just carrying out its duty of terminating a life. This verse is interesting in that it complicates the subject of pre-destination, but we?ll not discuss that right now.

I disagree that the person had to be an angel.

And God doesn?t will that we kill people for what they believe (2256 and 6151).
Remember, God doesn?t change, so killing unbelievers wasn?t okay in the past; it?s always been murder and murder is evil.

Oh, really? Then what happened to Sodom and Gommarah? Isn't this exactly what we are discussing? The fact that God does in fact destroy towns/cities full off people for their transgressions.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Salam,

I read the article on submission.org

Here are my comments

The author uses conjecture to determain that the servant is an angel. We can not conclude either way. Although, personally, I would say the servant is a human. But this is opinion. The whole Hadith story about the man being named Khidar is not based on fact either.
The author mis-translates 1867 and then concludes from this that the servant is an angel.
The author mis-understands and mis-translates 1880 by saying that the youth did not transgress or that he was killed before he committed any sin.
He was already burdening his parents with his disobedience and one can wonder whether the youth would only continue to do so to a greater degree in the future.
What utter non-sense! to say that the servant "disappears from the scene as mysteriously as he appears" is PURE CONJECTURE. The narrative simply ends....the servant does not disappear in a puff of smoke or some other fairytale nonsense. This author has QUITE the imagination.

The FACT is the narrative/story ends.

Salam,
Arnab

Supernaut

Oh, really? Then what happened to Sodom and Gommarah? Isn't this exactly what we are discussing? The fact that God does in fact destroy towns/cities full off people for their transgressions.

You misunderstood what I said. It?s alright if God punishes unbelievers for disbelieving, but it?s not alright for humans to do the same. I thought we'd established this.

The author mis-translates 1867 and then concludes from this that the servant is an angel.

You?re right. But they did not base their entire argument on their misunderstanding of 1867.

The author mis-understands and mis-translates 1880 by saying that the youth did not transgress or that he was killed before he committed any sin.
He was already burdening his parents with his disobedience and one can wonder whether the youth would only continue to do so to a greater degree in the future.

1880 doesn?t say the youth was sinning as far as I know. It says that the youth would sin. But whether he was sinning or not or the fact that he would sin is immaterial since it would still be wrong for a human to have killed him.

What utter non-sense! to say that the servant "disappears from the scene as mysteriously as he appears" is PURE CONJECTURE. The narrative simply ends....the servant does not disappear in a puff of smoke or some other fairytale nonsense. This author has QUITE the imagination.

The FACT is the narrative/story ends.

Yes, the author did assume the messenger vanished mysteriously, however, the other points the author made do make it clear that the messenger was an angel. But I guess you won?t be convinced he was, so let?s agree to disagree because this debate is going in circles now.

huruf

May be I am intruding in this subject bringing in something else.

What we see in fact is that God not only destroys evil people, He also destroys good people. In fact God destroys all people at one time or another. In fact we all die, children die independently of them committing hateful acts or not.

I wonder if what God is doing in the cases you bring forth is not simply pointing to us His natural laws. In fact it is surely true that nations and people are eventually destroyed, may be by their own wickedness, may be because they become soft and uncapable of resisting hard times, may be their time has come and God wants to have other things on earth, finally birth and death ar God's. When we get stories like the destroyed cities, Ad, the people of Noah and all those that He says were destroyed because of their bad ways what we are being told is simply that for peoples as well as for each individual person, each behaviour has its consequences and you cannot escape them. Nations that become arrogant and god-like will fall, they have always fallen, precisely because of their blindeness.

On the other hand there is no question about the good ones being punished. They die because everything dies and they suffer because life as God tells us is a trial. We all die, much sooner usually than our nation or people may die, and for the akhira God will judge each person, not the nations, the nations were already judged on earth. God has not cheated us on that, we know it. We know too that innocent people are murdered and that the murderer may live undisturbed. But that is the whole point of faith, you believe in the akhira or you don't. What about earthquakes and cyclons and uncalled for wars with all their pains? Are all those who suffer them guilty of anything?

And one of you has mentioned one name of God which I find particularly comforting the Inheritor. I am sure He inherits everything, even our sweetest dreams and most noble desires. They are not lost. They are in His hands. He is the most Merciful, and He keeps everything and makes frutiful in the wisest way.

Salaam

arnoldyasin

Shabbir 7127
If you should leave them, they will mislead Your servants and they will only beget division and ingratitude.

In 3030 we are told all humans are born with the fitra in them, the nature of the Deen, so no one can be born as a wicked rejector. This is why the FM translation creates a contradiction.

comes from Walada means to bring forth, to give birth too. It can be used for real birth, or for creating something in society. Like saying, if I leave chocolate on my desk, it will give birth to some extra kilo's on my body.

Lane's Lexicons mentions the saying Al-Ardh Al-Balka taliduu as-Sa3frana. The land of Al-Balka produces safron.

So Walada can be used metaphorically. What is created in 7127? It says they will eventualy create

Fajran kaffaran. Fajra comes from Fajara and means to cut or divide lengthwise, break open, vent, incline/decline/deviate, dawn/sunrise/daybreak, source, abundantly and suddenly, ample bounty/generosity, a place from which water flows.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/FA.jpg

Kaffaran comes fro Kafara, which means farmer. A farmer buries things and closes his eyes for the sun. This created the further understanding of burying the truth, burying the rights of others. To close the eyes for the obvious, the truth and to resist it and thus be ingratitude for the life given to them as they want to take it away from others.

So what is given birth too? People who are the source for division (fajara) which rises towards people who want to bury other people's rights (kafara).

arnoldyasin

1253 (Free-Minds Translation)"And I do not make myself free of blame, for the soul is inclined to sin, except what my Lord has mercy on. My Lord is Forgiving, Merciful."

Not loosely translated, it completely neglects the root meaning sof the words used in my eyes.

Nafs inclines more to psyche then "soul". Amaratun refers to commanding something. Bilsoo means Bi-with al-soo comes from Al-Sayi, to oppress and do evil towards other people. Rabb can never be lord, as lord in english refers to someone who does not work and has no responsibility towards people, while the Arabic Rabb means the complete opposite, it refers to a lord who is resonsible for your nourishment and upbringing towards maturity. Raheem comes from Rihum, wombs, it refers rather to giving further development and nourishment then to "mercy" in the Christian salvation sense. Ghafour cannot mean forgiveness as this would contradict 997-8 and 2147 which clearly state no deed will be neglected. Ghafour means to protect, coming from Mighfar, helmet. So a better rendition of this verse would be

"And I do not make myself free of blame, for the psyche can command oppressing other people, except that my Developer to perfection has made (us for) His nourishment towards further stages. My Developer to perfection is Provider of Protection (by giving Revelation which protects society against harm if we follow it 1829)."

arnoldyasin

It doesnt say Al Insaan (human) either.

The servant had to be an angel because no human has the authority to kill someone for being an unbeliever and much less someone who will be an unbeliever. The angel messenger was just carrying out its duty of terminating a life. This verse is interesting in that it complicates the subject of pre-destination, but well not discuss that right now.

Or it was a person who had received revelation? Never thought of that? Plus, the Moses story is full of metaphors. Look how in the beginning the boy dissapears and the fish also. This happened where the "streams came together". Does this story metaphorically describes Moses's journey towards maturity? The young boy representing his youth which he lost when his life (fish) was lost in the 2 streams (The human world meeting with the Divine in the form of Revelation?). Then the Abd mentioned can be a metaphor for Revelation, as Moses constantly questions that commands given in it. Many translators incline more to seeing the story as a metaphor then to a real story, we must not forget 37.

arnoldyasin

God doesn't intervene, the laws of nature eventually react towards the deeds of the people, and so the people themselves harm their own children by dragging them into the realm of consequences. There are many children, women and innocent men dying every day by the hands of other humans, children dying of hunger and diseases. All of this lies in our hands, it is our responsibility to do something about this.

God gave us the possibilities to do so much good. To develop ourselves to the fullest. The innocent are dragged along with the guilty as long as we allow it. Death in itself is not something wrong, it is just a between phase within our development in the universe. So if the children died, they will not experience this as a crime since they can develop further without any barriers. Their parents do find these barriers for further development because of their evil deeds, they will experience Jahim=to stop something/barrier/fire and are in Jahannam=garbage dump.

So no wrong is done to those who were dragged down, as they do not carry the evil on their Nafs, they can develop further in the cosmos after death without any barriers. This is why God says that these dead are not dead, but alive. No one carries the burden of another, but this burden is not directly death itself, in my eyes it refers to barriers that stop your Nafs from further development in the cosmic evolution (Jannah).

So we must not always confuse death with punishment, the punishment is not to have the change to compensate for the wrong deeds that have been done (11114). The innocent persons who's lives were cut short on earth are not punished as they can develop further without anymore barriers. We see in death a punishment as deep within us we still doubt if there is more after death, we are scared of it, so we deem it a punishment. But the Qur'an says death itself is not the punishment, meeting your own deeds, the consequences there off, that is the punihsment IF your evil exceeds your good. And this means you must have done real evil, as every good deeds weighs 10x more then evil on your Nafs/conciousness (6160).

But we, you and me, do carry the burden of every child dying of hunger, disease and oppression as long as we do not help them (475), feed them, cure them. The innocent die mostly because of our neglectance of doing what needs to be done.

"Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing."

This is why God will protect us against many things, but He cannot protect us against Shirk (4116), taking other priorities over God's System, as as long as we do not follow His system, mankind will constantly be harmed by their own hands. And as we have free will and God does not force us (1111, He cannot protect us against our own deeds as long as we do not protect ourselves (1829, 11114, 11117)

Supernaut

Thanks so much Arnold. Salute

I knew that God didn't punish those children when It let them die in the disasters, but what I wanted to know was why didn't God prevent their deaths by telling the messengers to take them to safety along with the believers? I suppose the reason is that the messengers couldn't possibly have done that because the parents of the children would've thought that the messengers were kidnapping their children and so the blame for the deaths of those children lies solely on the unbelievers. I feel a little silly for having started this thread because the answer to my question seems obvious now. Know that I was knackered when I created this thread.

huruf

I do not see why you, Supernaut, should feel uncomfortable for raising any question at all, particularly something like this which, explained or not, is so hard to swallow. I think you did raise something that worries many people and it is not at all a waste of time to go over it as many times as anybody really worries. Suffering is always a trial, and even if we suffer because of thinking of others we better do it in company-

Salaam, and please, raise whatever makes you worry. We all profit from it.

Supernaut

I do not see why you, Supernaut, should feel uncomfortable for raising any question at all, particularly something like this which, explained or not, is so hard to swallow. I think you did raise something that worries many people and it is not at all a waste of time to go over it as many times as anybody really worries. Suffering is always a trial, and even if we suffer because of thinking of others we better do it in company-

Salaam, and please, raise whatever makes you worry. We all profit from it.

Salam,

You are right you know. And thank you for your kind words.

arnoldyasin

100% agree, there are never wrong or dumb questions, only wrong or dumb answers. I'm glad you believe I gave a good answer.

unknownuser

Salam,

Huruf,
that was a very thought provoking post. Thank you for sharing with us.

Arnold,
Also very good posts, and good points. I agree for the most part with what you have stated.

In 3030 we are told all humans are born with the fitra in them, the nature of the Deen, so no one can be born as a wicked rejector. This is why the FM translation creates a contradiction.

I do not see that 3030 is evidence that humans are not born "bad." Fitra= open, free. My understanding of the word Fitra is based on the word as used in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic. So, we may have a different definition of the word. I can post my references if requested.

God doesn't intervene, the laws of nature eventually react towards the deeds of the people, and so the people themselves harm their own children by dragging them into the realm of consequences.

I believe it is both God intervening and the laws of nature.

Supernaut,
We all learn from exploring and debating a topic. I don't feel that this was a silly topic or question at all.
Even if we disagree on some points, we benefit from the conversation.

Salam,
Arnab

Supernaut

Arnold,

Your answers were - like all your other answers to other questions of mine - very good and informative. However, I disagree with some of your beliefs, the ones that you share with Shabbir Ahmed to be more specific. Like I don't believe one can develop their Nafs (persoonhood) after death. However, I still think Shabbir Ahmed's translation is a useful one. I've been using it for over a year now and it's really improved my understanding of the Quran.

unknownuser

Salam,

Arnold,

Your answers were - like all your other answers to other questions of mine - very good and informative. However, I disagree with some of your beliefs, the ones that you share with Shabbir Ahmed to be more specific. Like I don't believe one can develop their Nafs (persoonhood) after death. However, I still think Shabbir Ahmed's translation is a useful one. I've been using it for over a year now and it's really improved my understanding of the Quran.

Arnold,

This is a point I disagree with as well I don't believe that you can develop your nafs after death.

Can you please provide verses to support your statements on the subject?

Salam,
Arnab

Layth

Salam,

In 3030 we are told all humans are born with the fitra in them, the nature of the Deen, so no one can be born as a wicked rejector. This is why the FM translation creates a contradiction.

There is no contradiction. Noah argued (successfully) that these people who are by nature wicked rejectors will only breed more wicked rejectors. Our Lord accepted Noah`s prayer and wiped out the entire earth (children and all) with the exception of the handful that were with Noah.

To argue that people are born with the fitrato know the true system is not negated by the fact that children born in an evil environment are most likely to repeat the same behaviour they have seen/learnt, while children born in a good/pure environment are likely to emulate the same.

The good for the good and the evil for the evil.

arnoldyasin

Arnold,

Your answers were - like all your other answers to other questions of mine - very good and informative. However, I disagree with some of your beliefs, the ones that you share with Shabbir Ahmed to be more specific. Like I don't believe one can develop their Nafs (persoonhood) after death. However, I still think Shabbir Ahmed's translation is a useful one. I've been using it for over a year now and it's really improved my understanding of the Quran.

There are several verses that refer to this issue, also do I believe many definitions used in the Qur'an as Rabb, Raheem and more all refer to a constant development of the Nafs.

668 O you who acknowledge, you shall return to God in full honesty. It may be that your Rabb, your Developer of all your stages bury the evil you have done to others and admit you into Jannahtin with rivers flowing beneath. In the Era, God will not disappoint the prophet and those who acknowledged with him. Their light will radiate around them and to their right. They will say, "Our Rabb, keep perfecting our light for us, and protect us; You are able to do all things."

Here the concept of perfecting the person's light by the Rabb, the Developer towards perfection, is asked for. Here Jannahtin and Yauwme can be understood in 2 ways, here in this life and in the next.

3920 But those who keep their duty to their Rabb, for them are lofty halls with lofty halls above them, built (for them), beneath which rivers flow. (It is) a promise of Allah. Allah faileth not His promise.

Here also, the halls above halls can be understood as constant development of the Nafs. Also this verse can be understood as referring to this life and the next.

8419 That you shall most certainly enter one state after another, from one stage to the other, Tabiq.

Also the word Jannah, Garden, is very interesting. A garden is never static, it constantly grows and expands. It is also always man-made, not to be found in nature. Just as Jahannam was the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, garbagedumps are also always man-made.

And we are created for constant development

11119 Save him on whom your Developer of all your stages of evolution has given His Rahma, His continuous nourishment; and for that He did create them.

Also with my understanding of the universe, which is by science to be understood as a constant developing system, from one bigbang to the next, each time perfecting its system. I see this concept also in the Qur'an. My essay on Qur'anic Cosmology displays the whole concept with Qur'anic verses and quotes from scientists and philosophers

http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-f.pdf

arnoldyasin

Salam,

There is no contradiction. Noah argued (successfully) that these people who are by nature wicked rejectors will only breed more wicked rejectors. Our Lord accepted Noah`s prayer and wiped out the entire earth (children and all) with the exception of the handful that were with Noah.

To argue that people are born with the fitrato know the true system is not negated by the fact that children born in an evil environment are most likely to repeat the same behaviour they have seen/learnt, while children born in a good/pure environment are likely to emulate the same.

The good for the good and the evil for the evil.

This is exactly what I said in my post also, it is the enviroment which will create the fajra and kafara. But the FM translation can be misunderstood as can be seen how Arnab tried to use it.

arnoldyasin

I believe it is both God intervening and the laws of nature.

If that is so, why doesn't He feed the poor? Or does He only intervene to punish people and not help the needy?

unknownuser

If that is so, why doesn't He feed the poor? Or does He only intervene to punish people and not help the needy?

Majority of the people living in this world are poor, hence proved God does feed them! yes