Did God punish and kill innocent children too?
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100% agree, there are never wrong or dumb questions, only wrong or dumb answers. I'm glad you believe I gave a good answer.
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Salam,
Huruf,
that was a very thought provoking post. Thank you for sharing with us.Arnold,
Also very good posts, and good points. I agree for the most part with what you have stated.In 3030 we are told all humans are born with the fitra in them, the nature of the Deen, so no one can be born as a wicked rejector. This is why the FM translation creates a contradiction.
I do not see that 3030 is evidence that humans are not born "bad." Fitra= open, free. My understanding of the word Fitra is based on the word as used in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic. So, we may have a different definition of the word. I can post my references if requested.
God doesn't intervene, the laws of nature eventually react towards the deeds of the people, and so the people themselves harm their own children by dragging them into the realm of consequences.
I believe it is both God intervening and the laws of nature.
Supernaut,
We all learn from exploring and debating a topic. I don't feel that this was a silly topic or question at all.
Even if we disagree on some points, we benefit from the conversation.Salam,
Arnab -
Arnold,
Your answers were - like all your other answers to other questions of mine - very good and informative. However, I disagree with some of your beliefs, the ones that you share with Shabbir Ahmed to be more specific. Like I don't believe one can develop their Nafs (persoonhood) after death. However, I still think Shabbir Ahmed's translation is a useful one. I've been using it for over a year now and it's really improved my understanding of the Quran.
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Salam,
Arnold,
Your answers were - like all your other answers to other questions of mine - very good and informative. However, I disagree with some of your beliefs, the ones that you share with Shabbir Ahmed to be more specific. Like I don't believe one can develop their Nafs (persoonhood) after death. However, I still think Shabbir Ahmed's translation is a useful one. I've been using it for over a year now and it's really improved my understanding of the Quran.
Arnold,
This is a point I disagree with as well I don't believe that you can develop your nafs after death.
Can you please provide verses to support your statements on the subject?
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
In 3030 we are told all humans are born with the fitra in them, the nature of the Deen, so no one can be born as a wicked rejector. This is why the FM translation creates a contradiction.
There is no contradiction. Noah argued (successfully) that these people who are by nature wicked rejectors will only breed more wicked rejectors. Our Lord accepted Noah`s prayer and wiped out the entire earth (children and all) with the exception of the handful that were with Noah.
To argue that people are born with the
fitrato know the true system is not negated by the fact that children born in an evil environment are most likely to repeat the same behaviour they have seen/learnt, while children born in a good/pure environment are likely to emulate the same.The good for the good and the evil for the evil.
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Arnold,
Your answers were - like all your other answers to other questions of mine - very good and informative. However, I disagree with some of your beliefs, the ones that you share with Shabbir Ahmed to be more specific. Like I don't believe one can develop their Nafs (persoonhood) after death. However, I still think Shabbir Ahmed's translation is a useful one. I've been using it for over a year now and it's really improved my understanding of the Quran.
There are several verses that refer to this issue, also do I believe many definitions used in the Qur'an as Rabb, Raheem and more all refer to a constant development of the Nafs.
668 O you who acknowledge, you shall return to God in full honesty. It may be that your Rabb, your Developer of all your stages bury the evil you have done to others and admit you into Jannahtin with rivers flowing beneath. In the Era, God will not disappoint the prophet and those who acknowledged with him. Their light will radiate around them and to their right. They will say, "Our Rabb, keep perfecting our light for us, and protect us; You are able to do all things."
Here the concept of perfecting the person's light by the Rabb, the Developer towards perfection, is asked for. Here Jannahtin and Yauwme can be understood in 2 ways, here in this life and in the next.
3920 But those who keep their duty to their Rabb, for them are lofty halls with lofty halls above them, built (for them), beneath which rivers flow. (It is) a promise of Allah. Allah faileth not His promise.
Here also, the halls above halls can be understood as constant development of the Nafs. Also this verse can be understood as referring to this life and the next.
8419 That you shall most certainly enter one state after another, from one stage to the other, Tabiq.
Also the word Jannah, Garden, is very interesting. A garden is never static, it constantly grows and expands. It is also always man-made, not to be found in nature. Just as Jahannam was the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, garbagedumps are also always man-made.
And we are created for constant development
11119 Save him on whom your Developer of all your stages of evolution has given His Rahma, His continuous nourishment; and for that He did create them.
Also with my understanding of the universe, which is by science to be understood as a constant developing system, from one bigbang to the next, each time perfecting its system. I see this concept also in the Qur'an. My essay on Qur'anic Cosmology displays the whole concept with Qur'anic verses and quotes from scientists and philosophers
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-f.pdf
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Salam,
There is no contradiction. Noah argued (successfully) that these people who are by nature wicked rejectors will only breed more wicked rejectors. Our Lord accepted Noah`s prayer and wiped out the entire earth (children and all) with the exception of the handful that were with Noah.
To argue that people are born with the
fitrato know the true system is not negated by the fact that children born in an evil environment are most likely to repeat the same behaviour they have seen/learnt, while children born in a good/pure environment are likely to emulate the same.The good for the good and the evil for the evil.
This is exactly what I said in my post also, it is the enviroment which will create the fajra and kafara. But the FM translation can be misunderstood as can be seen how Arnab tried to use it.
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I believe it is both God intervening and the laws of nature.
If that is so, why doesn't He feed the poor? Or does He only intervene to punish people and not help the needy?
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If that is so, why doesn't He feed the poor? Or does He only intervene to punish people and not help the needy?
Majority of the people living in this world are poor, hence proved God does feed them! yes
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Concerning evolution after death, I recall the many times that we are reminded in the Quran that we will return to God. We are also repeatedly told that to God is the "masir". That is at any time, wherever we are our evolution is toward Him, He is our destiny. So, the usual understanding the people seem to have of that is that when we dia, or some day here we celebrate Qiyama, we get to see God who send us to Janna or to Hell and bye bye. Exactly as if we were accused or murder, the day of trial came. We went there, and some judge handed down a sentence and we go back home or we get jailed or hanged. Isn't this vision a a good way away from the Quran? So where do we go when we come to the qiyama and have to stand by what we did. God al Haq, al 3adl, ar-rahman dhul-jalala wa-likram, who created us to worship and know him, sends us away, some to hell some to janna. May be since those of janna are the good ones from time to time He will say hi. As to those in hell, well he must not say anything because He created to them to know him and gave them the masir to Him and they ar not going so it seems that God botched his own creation, astaghfirullah.
Shouldn't it be time that we reflect on this and that nobody in this earth would consider that somebody evil for a limited time could be punished forever, whtever that means. That by any standard is cruel, and incredible cruelty. Still it seems quite acceptable that somebody maybe many is going to be thus punished. And what about intermediate half-bad, half-good.
As arnold says, creation evolves, nothing stays the same, the Quran says we return to Somebody that is inconcievable and limitless, we go to him but we do not Evolve, and so those in Hell? This doesn't make sense at all.
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peace Layth, all,
Our Lord accepted Noah`s prayer and wiped out the entire earth (children and all) with the exception of the handful that were with Noah.
As far as I'm aware, this cannot be proven from AQ, as it allows leeway for a regional flood, as well as worldwide. If I recall correctly, from when reviewing Project Root List data.
Noah argued (successfully) that these people who are by nature wicked rejectors will only breed more wicked rejectors.
To argue that people are born with the
fitrato know the true system is not negated by the fact that children born in an evil environment are most likely to repeat the same behaviour they have seen/learnt, while children born in a good/pure environment are likely to emulate the same.What they are born and what they turn into are different. Not sure if that's what you were implying or not.
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There are several verses that refer to this issue, also do I believe many definitions used in the Qur'an as Rabb, Raheem and more all refer to a constant development of the Nafs.
668 O you who acknowledge, you shall return to God in full honesty. It may be that your Rabb, your Developer of all your stages bury the evil you have done to others and admit you into Jannahtin with rivers flowing beneath. In the Era, God will not disappoint the prophet and those who acknowledged with him. Their light will radiate around them and to their right. They will say, "Our Rabb, keep perfecting our light for us, and protect us; You are able to do all things."
Interesting.
Here the concept of perfecting the person's light by the Rabb, the Developer towards perfection, is asked for. Here Jannahtin and Yauwme can be understood in 2 ways, here in this life and in the next.
3920 But those who keep their duty to their Rabb, for them are lofty halls with lofty halls above them, built (for them), beneath which rivers flow. (It is) a promise of Allah. Allah faileth not His promise.
Here also, the halls above halls can be understood as constant development of the Nafs. Also this verse can be understood as referring to this life and the next.
It?s possible that a good person will get an additional hall for every new stage that their Nafs will reach but I think that people who are destined for Hell will remain in Hell ( ? Can you those who are in the fire?). Yes, I?m convinced now that the reward for the righteous will keep increasing in the after-life but that the iniquitous will not find a way out of their punishment (2217).
8419 That you shall most certainly enter one state after another, from one stage to the other, Tabiq.
Also the word Jannah, Garden, is very interesting. A garden is never static, it constantly grows and expands. It is also always man-made, not to be found in nature. Just as Jahannam was the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, garbagedumps are also always man-made.
Doesn?t the Quran say that God?s made Heaven (989)?
And we are created for constant development
11119 Save him on whom your Developer of all your stages of evolution has given His Rahma, His continuous nourishment; and for that He did create them.
Also with my understanding of the universe, which is by science to be understood as a constant developing system, from one bigbang to the next, each time perfecting its system. I see this concept also in the Qur'an. My essay on Qur'anic Cosmology displays the whole concept with Qur'anic verses and quotes from scientists and philosophers
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-f.pdf
I'll read your essay.
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I'll try to ignore that the Deen Research Centre believes that the Quran ordains a socialistic system. I suspected Shabbir Ahmed was a socialist long ago when I read his commentary of 1164, which by the way I found completely implausible. I'm not a die-hard capitalist, but I find socialism to be completely unquranic and therefore unjust.
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Interesting.
It?s possible that a good person will get an additional hall for every new stage that their Nafs will reach but I think that people who are destined for Hell will remain in Hell ( ? Can you those who are in the fire?). Yes, I?m convinced now that the reward for the righteous will keep increasing in the after-life but that the iniquitous will not find a way out of their punishment (2217).
Doesn?t the Quran say that God?s made Heaven (989)?
I'll read your essay.
And where is the justice of that, of condemning somebody, may be one of those children that grew of evil parents, to ETERNAL punishment? Would you feel merciful and just if you did that to somebody?
Salaam
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it was you or somebody else said that a child, if he grew among bad people could very easily become bad. That was what I was referring too. But never mind the child. do you find that it is just to punish unendingly for something which has an end? And also. And even those who may have been bad, there may be enormous differences amongst them, all of them unendingly punished? Is it just? Forever? Do you really believe God does that? Why does he do that? In order to be worshipped and known? Mind you, I would see justice in doing to some people the same things they have done to others, however cruel and horrendous, but INFINITELY more? Wouldn't you call a monster whoever did that?
Salaam
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If that is so, why doesn't He feed the poor? Or does He only intervene to punish people and not help the needy?
Salam,
Arnold, I agree with RasulHamsa's answer.
Salam,
Arnab -
This is exactly what I said in my post also, it is the enviroment which will create the fajra and kafara. But the FM translation can be misunderstood as can be seen how Arnab tried to use it.
Salam Arnold,
First I never used a translation to understand 3030 (not even Free-minds).
I read Arabic. I do not rely on translations. And since I never even posted 3030 with or without a translation, I did not try to "use it" in any fashion.
Second, it is true that when I do post a verse, I usually use the Free-minds translation.
This is for the benefit of those who do not speak Arabic, to give them a general idea of what the verse says I only use the Free-minds translation as a reference. This is not my translation.Third, For clarification I, too, have a different understanding of 3030 than the Free-Minds Translation.
Fourth, my brief comment on your understanding of 3030 was in an earlier post
Quote from Arnold Yasin
In 3030 we are told all humans are born with the fitra in them, the nature of the Deen, so no one can be born as a wicked rejector. This is why the FM translation creates a contradiction.Quote from Arnab
I do not see that 3030 is evidence that humans are not born "bad." Fitra= open, free. My understanding of the word Fitra is based on the word as used in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic. So, we may have a different definition of the word. I can post my references if requested.Salam,
Arnab -
Peace Arnab,
I wasn't referring to 3030 but to 7127, and I meant Supernaut, please excuse me for the mistake.
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Salam,
Arnold, I agree with RasulHamsa's answer.
Salam,
Arnab3647 And when it is said to them, ?Spend on others of the provision Allah has given to you?, the rejecters say to the believers, ?Shall we feed anyone whom Allah could have fed if He so willed? You people are obviously lost in error.?
