Did God punish and kill innocent children too?
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peace Layth, all,
Our Lord accepted Noah`s prayer and wiped out the entire earth (children and all) with the exception of the handful that were with Noah.
As far as I'm aware, this cannot be proven from AQ, as it allows leeway for a regional flood, as well as worldwide. If I recall correctly, from when reviewing Project Root List data.
Noah argued (successfully) that these people who are by nature wicked rejectors will only breed more wicked rejectors.
To argue that people are born with the
fitrato know the true system is not negated by the fact that children born in an evil environment are most likely to repeat the same behaviour they have seen/learnt, while children born in a good/pure environment are likely to emulate the same.What they are born and what they turn into are different. Not sure if that's what you were implying or not.
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There are several verses that refer to this issue, also do I believe many definitions used in the Qur'an as Rabb, Raheem and more all refer to a constant development of the Nafs.
668 O you who acknowledge, you shall return to God in full honesty. It may be that your Rabb, your Developer of all your stages bury the evil you have done to others and admit you into Jannahtin with rivers flowing beneath. In the Era, God will not disappoint the prophet and those who acknowledged with him. Their light will radiate around them and to their right. They will say, "Our Rabb, keep perfecting our light for us, and protect us; You are able to do all things."
Interesting.
Here the concept of perfecting the person's light by the Rabb, the Developer towards perfection, is asked for. Here Jannahtin and Yauwme can be understood in 2 ways, here in this life and in the next.
3920 But those who keep their duty to their Rabb, for them are lofty halls with lofty halls above them, built (for them), beneath which rivers flow. (It is) a promise of Allah. Allah faileth not His promise.
Here also, the halls above halls can be understood as constant development of the Nafs. Also this verse can be understood as referring to this life and the next.
It?s possible that a good person will get an additional hall for every new stage that their Nafs will reach but I think that people who are destined for Hell will remain in Hell ( ? Can you those who are in the fire?). Yes, I?m convinced now that the reward for the righteous will keep increasing in the after-life but that the iniquitous will not find a way out of their punishment (2217).
8419 That you shall most certainly enter one state after another, from one stage to the other, Tabiq.
Also the word Jannah, Garden, is very interesting. A garden is never static, it constantly grows and expands. It is also always man-made, not to be found in nature. Just as Jahannam was the old garbage dump in Jerusalem, garbagedumps are also always man-made.
Doesn?t the Quran say that God?s made Heaven (989)?
And we are created for constant development
11119 Save him on whom your Developer of all your stages of evolution has given His Rahma, His continuous nourishment; and for that He did create them.
Also with my understanding of the universe, which is by science to be understood as a constant developing system, from one bigbang to the next, each time perfecting its system. I see this concept also in the Qur'an. My essay on Qur'anic Cosmology displays the whole concept with Qur'anic verses and quotes from scientists and philosophers
http//deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/quranic-cosmology-a-short-introduction-by-ay-mol-f.pdf
I'll read your essay.
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I'll try to ignore that the Deen Research Centre believes that the Quran ordains a socialistic system. I suspected Shabbir Ahmed was a socialist long ago when I read his commentary of 1164, which by the way I found completely implausible. I'm not a die-hard capitalist, but I find socialism to be completely unquranic and therefore unjust.
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Interesting.
It?s possible that a good person will get an additional hall for every new stage that their Nafs will reach but I think that people who are destined for Hell will remain in Hell ( ? Can you those who are in the fire?). Yes, I?m convinced now that the reward for the righteous will keep increasing in the after-life but that the iniquitous will not find a way out of their punishment (2217).
Doesn?t the Quran say that God?s made Heaven (989)?
I'll read your essay.
And where is the justice of that, of condemning somebody, may be one of those children that grew of evil parents, to ETERNAL punishment? Would you feel merciful and just if you did that to somebody?
Salaam
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it was you or somebody else said that a child, if he grew among bad people could very easily become bad. That was what I was referring too. But never mind the child. do you find that it is just to punish unendingly for something which has an end? And also. And even those who may have been bad, there may be enormous differences amongst them, all of them unendingly punished? Is it just? Forever? Do you really believe God does that? Why does he do that? In order to be worshipped and known? Mind you, I would see justice in doing to some people the same things they have done to others, however cruel and horrendous, but INFINITELY more? Wouldn't you call a monster whoever did that?
Salaam
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If that is so, why doesn't He feed the poor? Or does He only intervene to punish people and not help the needy?
Salam,
Arnold, I agree with RasulHamsa's answer.
Salam,
Arnab -
This is exactly what I said in my post also, it is the enviroment which will create the fajra and kafara. But the FM translation can be misunderstood as can be seen how Arnab tried to use it.
Salam Arnold,
First I never used a translation to understand 3030 (not even Free-minds).
I read Arabic. I do not rely on translations. And since I never even posted 3030 with or without a translation, I did not try to "use it" in any fashion.
Second, it is true that when I do post a verse, I usually use the Free-minds translation.
This is for the benefit of those who do not speak Arabic, to give them a general idea of what the verse says I only use the Free-minds translation as a reference. This is not my translation.Third, For clarification I, too, have a different understanding of 3030 than the Free-Minds Translation.
Fourth, my brief comment on your understanding of 3030 was in an earlier post
Quote from Arnold Yasin
In 3030 we are told all humans are born with the fitra in them, the nature of the Deen, so no one can be born as a wicked rejector. This is why the FM translation creates a contradiction.Quote from Arnab
I do not see that 3030 is evidence that humans are not born "bad." Fitra= open, free. My understanding of the word Fitra is based on the word as used in Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic. So, we may have a different definition of the word. I can post my references if requested.Salam,
Arnab -
Peace Arnab,
I wasn't referring to 3030 but to 7127, and I meant Supernaut, please excuse me for the mistake.
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Salam,
Arnold, I agree with RasulHamsa's answer.
Salam,
Arnab3647 And when it is said to them, ?Spend on others of the provision Allah has given to you?, the rejecters say to the believers, ?Shall we feed anyone whom Allah could have fed if He so willed? You people are obviously lost in error.?
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Salam,
Just to be clearQuote from Arnab on Yesterday at 095150 AM
I believe it is both God intervening and the laws of nature.Quote from Arnold Yasin on Yesterday at 111145 AM
If that is so, why doesn't He feed the poor? Or does He only intervene to punish people and not help the needy?Quote from RasulHamsa Yesterday at 114407 AM
Majority of the people living in this world are poor, hence proved God does feed them! yesQuote from Arnab
Arnold, I agree with RasulHamsa's answer.3647 And when it is said to them, ?Spend on others of the provision Allah has given to you?, the rejecters say to the believers, ?Shall we feed anyone whom Allah could have fed if He so willed? You people are obviously lost in error.?
Stating the fact that God provides for the needy, does not (in any way) imply that we can ignore our obligation to help others in every way we can.
These are two seperate topics.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace Arnab,
I wasn't referring to 3030 but to 7127, and I meant Supernaut, please excuse me for the mistake.
Salam,
No problem, it happens. peace
Salam,
Arnab -
The funny thing is, Rasulhamsa is always sarcastic and never means his statements.. D
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I'll try to ignore that the Deen Research Centre believes that the Quran ordains a socialistic system. I suspected Shabbir Ahmed was a socialist long ago when I read his commentary of 1164, which by the way I found completely implausible. I'm not a die-hard capitalist, but I find socialism to be completely unquranic and therefore unjust.
We at DRC are not socialistic, nor is Dr. Shabbir. Please read everything before making your judgements.
The Qur'an urges to be social with your own capital, thus it does not present a social system wherein everything belongs to the state. It urges mankind to be social with what it has earned themselves, thus it presents a social-capitalism. If you had read the articles and books you would have understood this.
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Stating the fact that God provides for the needy, does not (in any way) imply that we can ignore our obligation to help others in every way we can.
God has made the earth in a way so people can grow their own food. But as long as the rich majority abuses the poor majority, they cannot develop. God has provided the means (rizq), we must use them (jihad). This is God being Rahman, making the universe in such a way we can be self-sustaining like all other species.
But I was referring to the people dying now directly of starvation, water shortage, diseases and so on. The people in Birma and so on. They die if WE do not intervene and provide for them. God gave us the means on earth to help others, from there on it is our responsibility.
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Salam Arnold,
God has made the earth in a way so people can grow their own food. But as long as the rich majority abuses the poor majority, they cannot develop. God has provided the means (rizq), we must use them (jihad). This is God being Rahman, making the universe in such a way we can be self-sustaining like all other species.
But I was referring to the people dying now directly of starvation, water shortage, diseases and so on. The people in Birma and so on. They die if WE do not intervene and provide for them. God gave us the means on earth to help others, from there on it is our responsibility.
There is no disagreement here.
- God does provide for the needy.
- We have a responsibility to do everything we can (as humans) to help those in need.
You asked a direct question and it was answered with #1, because that was the direct answer.
That does not mean that #2 is no longer true.Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Arnold,
There is no disagreement here.- God does provide for the needy.
- We have a responsibility to do everything we can (as humans) to help those in need.
You asked a direct question and it was answered with #1, because that was the direct answer.
That does not mean that #2 is no longer true.Salam,
ArnabThe question remains, why would He intervene to punish people and not to help them directly instead of indirectly as discussed above.
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Salam,
The question remains, why would He intervene to punish people and not to help them directly instead of indirectly as discussed above.
What makes you think that God working through humans to help the needy is "indirect?"
By that same reasoning you can say..."why does God use earthquakes or hurricanes or hail stones instead of something more "direct?"
We know that in some cases the earthquake and the hail stones (as an example) are direct from God. Just because they can be explained by nature does not mean that they are not "directly from God."
The fact is that the hurricane, earthquake for punishment
and
the person helping the needy for benefit is direct from God.What would satisfy you as "direct?" Angels being sent down in white with halos that shine? (sarcasm)
God works through his laws and he intervenes through his laws. And we have the Quran to tell us how to follow these laws to make sure that they are carried out. This includes helping those in need.
Salam,
Arnab -
We at DRC are not socialistic, nor is Dr. Shabbir. Please read everything before making your judgements.
I will never say all of you are. Forgive me if I implied this; however the following is from the DRC intro
The need for them to unite under a secular, socialistic political system wherein man can find peace and is focused on benefiting the species as a whole.
And the following excerpt is from Dr. Shabbir Ahmed?s qxp-iv
The Qur'an urges to be social with your own capital, thus it does not present a social system wherein everything belongs to the state.
I completely agree with you.
It urges mankind to be social with what it has earned themselves, thus it presents a social-capitalism.
Precisely.
If you had read the articles and books you would have understood this.
I suppose you?re right. I suppose I do need to read the articles on the DRC website.
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Salam,
What makes you think that God working through humans to help the needy is "indirect?"
By that same reasoning you can say..."why does God use earthquakes or hurricanes or hail stones instead of something more "direct?"
We know that in some cases the earthquake and the hail stones (as an example) are direct from God. Just because they can be explained by nature does not mean that they are not "directly from God."
The fact is that the hurricane, earthquake for punishment
and
the person helping the needy for benefit is direct from God.What would satisfy you as "direct?" Angels being sent down in white with halos that shine? (sarcasm)
God works through his laws and he intervenes through his laws. And we have the Quran to tell us how to follow these laws to make sure that they are carried out. This includes helping those in need.
Salam,
ArnabNow we are almost on the same line of thinking, before you only said God intervened, now you use words I agree with.
