Common problems associated with the "salat" issue
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slw is an abbreviated way of writing saad-lam-waw (which is the root of "salat"
Various Classical Arabic literature use the word Salat to mean prayer. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
Not once did I say "prayer" was not a possibility. You would have a point if "prayer" was the only usage.
How can you trust Scholars of Arabic that suggest that and then ignore those same scholars when they say Salat means prayer?
Scholars more important than what Quran says? No thanks.
but at the same time you agree with Lane's understanding of the word Salat.
Agree? No. Accept it as a possible option, yes.
I have ran the "options" through the Quran, but the only option that Lane seems to give in his dictionary is prayer, so I guess thats the correct meaning
Thanks for demonstrating your logic and strength of argument.
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slw is an abbreviated way of writing saad-lam-waw (which is the root of "salat"
I'm aware of that brickwall
Not once did I say "prayer" was not a possibility. You would have a point if "prayer" was the only usage.
What are the other possibilities? Your article suggests that Salat is to read and study the Quran. Have I understood that correctly?
Scholars more important than what Quran says? No thanks.
If it wasn't for Scholars of Classical Arabic (Lane for example), you wouldn't be able to understand a single word of the Quran.
Thanks for demonstrating your logic and strength of argument.
Shukran katheer
Maybe you should re-read my post.
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Peace
I agree very much with the last two sentences. The problem with salat is that the root meaning has been concealed and changed to 'ritual prayer' by the sectarians. They then ask you to show them how one can 'do' 'salat' from the Quran when they really mean show me where in the Quran it tells you how to do 'salat' as evidenced from the hadith/parents/religious books. And they know it cannot be proved. They are close to the truth, but have the argument inside out.
Roshan
How has the "root meaning" of Salat been concealed? What is the correct "root meaning" and what is your evidence for this?
You said earlier that Salat was "communion with God done through Quran study". If that is what Salat is then why didn't God just simply say "study the Quran", instead of saying "uphold the Salat"? It just doesn't seem logical for an All Knowing God to use words like "salat" in the Quran at all if the Arabs are going to misunderstand and think Salat is prayer. The Quran was meant to have been revealed in a language that the Arabs could understand. Since the Arabs supposedly didn't understand the meaning of Salat then it would be a failure on God's part.
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If it wasn't for Scholars of Classical Arabic (Lane for example), you wouldn't be able to understand a single word of the Quran.
If you mean no words of Arabic were recorded and people ceased to speak it, then yes you are right.
What are the other possibilities?
In my article I list the possibilities from CA dictionaries.
Your article suggests that Salat is to read and study the Quran. Have I understood that correctly?
uphold the bond. what is the mumineen's bond? Did you read the article on who are the mumineen?
If that is what Salat is then why didn't God just simply say "study the Quran", instead of saying "uphold the Salat"?
You mean like in 1778? Or is asking us to do the reading at dawn as the only "other" daily task asked of us at the exact same time as "salat" just a big coincidence?
It just doesn't seem logical for an All Knowing God to use words like "salat" in the Quran at all if the Arabs are going to misunderstand and think Salat is prayer
Like... it doesn't seem logical for an All Knowing God to be unable to make Jesus' message clearer so people wouldn't take him as the literal son of God?
I am confident "salat" was understood perfectly at the time and AQ shows this. Not to mention it still contains many elements of the traditional "salat".The Quran was meant to have been revealed in a language that the Arabs could understand. Since the Arabs supposedly didn't understand the meaning of Salat then it would be a failure on God's part.
Like God failed to make Jesus' message clear so people didn't later take him to be the literal son of God?
If you wish to continue this discussion, let's get back to FACTS
out of 99 occurrences of slw, how many clearly show it means "prayer"?
If you have some sort of adverse reaction to slw, feel free to tell us how many "salat" occurrences cleary show it means "prayer"?
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If you mean no words of Arabic were recorded and people ceased to speak it, then yes you are right. )
Perhaps the Arabic spoken 1400 years ago is completely different to the Arabic spoken now. Just like the word Salat miraculously changed meaning as soon as the Quran was revealed, maybe the rest of the words also changed meaning.
In my article I list the possibilities from CA dictionaries.
Why are you bringing dictionaries that have been made by Scholars into this? Those same scholars say that Salat means prayer. If they're wrong about that then they're probably wrong about the root of Salat (slw)
uphold the bond. what is the mumineen's bond? Did you read the article on who are the mumineen?
Could you explain that a little further? From what I've always understood Mumin is someone with faith and firm belief in God.
You mean like in 1778? Or is asking us to do the reading at dawn as the only "other" daily task asked of us at the exact same time as "salat" just a big coincidence?
Verse 1778 suggests that the Quran should be read at dawn, which I don't disagree with. "Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed." If Salat and recitation of the Quran are one and the same then God doesn't need to repeat himself like that.
Like... it doesn't seem logical for an All Knowing God to be unable to make Jesus' message clearer so people wouldn't take him as the literal son of God?
I am confident "salat" was understood perfectly at the time and AQ shows this. Not to mention it still contains many elements of the traditional "salat".
Like God failed to make Jesus' message clear so people didn't later take him to be the literal son of God?So the correct Salat is similar to the traditional one, how so? I thought you understood Salat to mean studying or reflecting upon the Quran so what elements does it share with the traditional Salat, which is a ritual prayer?
Many of the Christians I know don't take Jesus to be the "literal" son of God. God isn't physical. They believe Jesus is God incarnate.
If you wish to continue this discussion, let's get back to FACTS
out of 99 occurrences of slw, how many clearly show it means "prayer"?
If you have some sort of adverse reaction to slw, feel free to tell us how many "salat" occurrences cleary show it means "prayer"?
Many of the Salat occurrences clearly imply the meaning prayer.
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Could you explain that a little further? From what I've always understood Mumin is someone with faith and firm belief in God.
In my article I link specifically to articles discussing this. Did you read the articles or not?
If Salat and recitation of the Quran are one and the same then God doesn't need to repeat himself like that.
What exactly was repeated? And your implication is faulty are you implying there is no repetition in The Quran?
So the correct Salat is similar to the traditional one, how so?
Are you implying you have no idea of any similarities? timings, quran recitation, individual or group, sermons/khutba, ablution etc.
Many of the Salat occurrences clearly imply the meaning prayer.
You talk much but evidence little. Please bring your strongest few verses for all to see.
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Wakas vs Bubbles
Turning out to be a good debate.......hopefully we can learn something from this and good points are being made by both sides but I tend to lean towards salat not being a ritual prayer as traditionalists understand it to be from my readings of Al-Quran!!!
PEACE
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Salaam Wakas
Here are some of the verses that reasure me that Salat is a Prayer.
"Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).""And when thou (O Muhammad) art among them and arrangest (their) worship for them, let only a party of them stand with thee (to worship) and let them take their arms. Then when they have performed their prostrations let them fall to the rear and let another party come that hath not worshipped and let them worship with thee, and let them take their precaution and their arms."
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Salaam Wakas
Here are some of the verses that reasure me that Salat is a Prayer.
"Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).""And when thou (O Muhammad) art among them and arrangest (their) worship for them, let only a party of them stand with thee (to worship) and let them take their arms. Then when they have performed their prostrations let them fall to the rear and let another party come that hath not worshipped and let them worship with thee, and let them take their precaution and their arms."
Here are the same verses and they reasure me that Salat is not prayer
Shabbir Ahmed 2125
Remember, We appointed the House a means to achieve unity among all mankind, and thus, a source of peace and security. So, attain the stature of Abraham recalling his firm stand for closely following the Divine Commands. We did take a Covenant from Abraham and Ishmael, ?Keep My House clean of all falsehood for those who rally around it and those who strive hard for the noble objective and those who submit in humility to the Divine Commands.?Shabbir Ahmed 4102
When you (O Messenger) are with them leading the forces, let some of them stand with you and use their arms. Then, after they have done their duty, let them fall to the rear and let another party come and carry out the commands. Let them take precautions and their arms. The disbelievers want you to neglect your arms and other belongings so that they may attack you once and for all. There is no harm for you to strategically lay aside your arms if rain impedes you or if you are exhausted. But take all possible precaution. God has prepared for those who oppose the truth, a humiliating chastisement.As we can see in the verses of the Quran i have shown you above, the words bow, prostration or worship does not exist in them. The reason the words bow, prostate and worship contains in the verses you have showed in your post, is because you are using an old translation. Many old translations are influenced by christian teachings, and they don't translate the Quran using its original language the (Quraish dialect). The usage of Quraish dialect to translate the Quran have been backed up by History, and by Quranic verses (1997, 445
So, have you considered to use a more new translation instead of Pikthal's 70 year old translation? As the nature change, animal kingdom and Humans change, the interpretation and translations of Quran must also change. If the old interpretations and translations are not replaced by new ones, we will get stagnant in the belief systems of old the past. The only thing that shall not change is the "Quran in its the original form, the arabic verses". But all interpretations and translations should change regularly as we get a new understanding, until judgement day.
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Salaam Bubbles,
The verses containing the English translations of "bow" (raki) and "prostrate" (sujud) are commonly cited, but going by AQ the word "sujud" does not mean "prostrate" (e.g. 124, 4154, 25. Similarly, according to AQ there is no clear occurrence of "raki" meaning "bow". The only possibility would be 3824 but in this occurrence it is used along with "kharra" which means fall down which seems redundant to add this, and according to you, these is no need for such repetition )
Please review all the occurrences for "sujud" and "raki" for yourself
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm4102 was discussed by me here, for further info
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10279.0 -
Here are the same verses and they reasure me that Salat is not prayer
Shabbir Ahmed 2125
Remember, We appointed the House a means to achieve unity among all mankind, and thus, a source of peace and security. So, attain the stature of Abraham recalling his firm stand for closely following the Divine Commands. We did take a Covenant from Abraham and Ishmael, ?Keep My House clean of all falsehood for those who rally around it and those who strive hard for the noble objective and those who submit in humility to the Divine Commands.?Shabbir Ahmed 4102
When you (O Messenger) are with them leading the forces, let some of them stand with you and use their arms. Then, after they have done their duty, let them fall to the rear and let another party come and carry out the commands. Let them take precautions and their arms. The disbelievers want you to neglect your arms and other belongings so that they may attack you once and for all. There is no harm for you to strategically lay aside your arms if rain impedes you or if you are exhausted. But take all possible precaution. God has prepared for those who oppose the truth, a humiliating chastisement.I've had a glimpse at many of Shabbir's translations and he just comes off as rather deluded. His translations are so off the wall and reduce the Arabic language to incomprehensible babble. I take some of the non-Muslim translators more seriously than him to be honest.
As we can see in the verses of the Quran i have shown you above, the words bow, prostration or worship does not exist in them. The reason the words bow, prostate and worship contains in the verses you have showed in your post, is because you are using an old translation. Many old translations are influenced by christian teachings, and they don't translate the Quran using its original language the (Quraish dialect). The usage of Quraish dialect to translate the Quran have been backed up by History, and by Quranic verses (1997, 445
What is this history of which you speak? How do you know what the Quraish dialect was like? As far as I'm aware those "old" translations were done from the Arabic of Muhammed's people at his time. The Quraish people believed that sujud meant prostration, hence that is the correct meaning of the word.
This is verse 1997, "So We have only made it easy in your tongue that you may give good news thereby to those who guard (against evil) and warn thereby a vehemently contentious people."
If it was easy and in the language of the Quraish then they should have had no trouble understanding that sujud wasn't protration and that it was something different, alas they didn't understand the 'true' meaning therefore the Quran wasn't easy to understand, which would be a failure on God's part and the Arabs are not to blame.So, have you considered to use a more new translation instead of Pikthal's 70 year old translation? As the nature change, animal kingdom and Humans change, the interpretation and translations of Quran must also change. If the old interpretations and translations are not replaced by new ones, we will get stagnant in the belief systems of old the past. The only thing that shall not change is the "Quran in its the original form, the arabic verses". But all interpretations and translations should change regularly as we get a new understanding, until judgement day.
Maybe the Arabic word "wa" needs to be reinterpreted, maybe the word "al" needs to be reinterpreted also. Maybe thats not their real meaning. For all we know those damned Christians have corrupted the whole of the Arabic language.
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Salaam Bubbles,
The verses containing the English translations of "bow" (raki) and "prostrate" (sujud) are commonly cited, but going by AQ the word "sujud" does not mean "prostrate" (e.g. 124, 4154, 25. Similarly, according to AQ there is no clear occurrence of "raki" meaning "bow". The only possibility would be 3824 but in this occurrence it is used along with "kharra" which means fall down which seems redundant to add this, and according to you, these is no need for such repetition
Verse 124 is allegorical and emphasizes the obedience that everything in the universe has for Allah. This doesn't change the fact that sujud means prostration and that this was how the Quraish understood the word.
I don't have a problem with repetition in the Quran. I just don't think its appropriate (or even grammatically correct???) to say " " if Quran recitation and salat are one and the same. To say "recite the Quran and recite the Quran" is quite peculiar.
I've read verse 38;24 and the fact that Dawood bowed to Allah to ask for forgiveness shows its something that I should probably do as well.
Please review all the occurrences for "sujud" and "raki" for yourself
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm4102 was discussed by me here, for further info
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10279.0I'm going to be blunt in saying that it doesn't matter how the Quran uses a word. What matters is the meaning that the people it was revealed to give its words. If the Quran gives different meanings to the Arabic words of the Quraish then the problem isn't the Quraish, its the Quran.
Having said that, I believe that sujud means prostration in the Quran and I believe it fits perfectly fine. This is how the early Arabs understood it. I don't care much for some of the conspiracy theories that would need to be proposed to claim otherwise.
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Peace Bubbles
I love to discuss and share knowledge and learn from people. However, i think your opinions on Salaat is thread too different and it seems like we won't come to a conclusion. My style is that i like to come to a conclusion, an understanding that is based on reality, logic and facts. My time is valuable and i don't discuss just to discuss. I discuss to reach a conclusion. Something is either false or true, not both it. Therefore facts, objectivity and constructiveness is very important for me.
We should Never ignore Reality, cause Reality has teeths, it bites
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I think you are an intelligent women, but you conjecture much, and dismiss proofs and logic. On some issues you are in denial of reality. You conjecture and follow what you feel is right (Subjectiveness), rather than following reality(Objectiveness).
My rule is that if i am going to discuss with someone on an issue, they should bring proofs that can back up their claims. If someone claims too much without having evidence/proofs to back up their claims (Historical, Quranical or Scientifical proofs), THEN i won't discuss further with them on an issue. I don't like when people ignore facts. We should never think we know everything or we are always right. Humbleness is an important trait many persons need to learn. Since we can't come to an agrement on this issue(Salat), i think we should just agree to disagree
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Verse 124 is allegorical and emphasizes the obedience that everything in the universe has for Allah.
Ignoring the fact that it wasn't even on about obedience to Allah.... since a physical prostration doesn't make sense, it must be allegorical? Fair enough, I already knew it wasn't a physical prostration. Do you also know that it says Joseph used his "raayt" for this? "raayt" is primarily used to mean see with the eyes. How does one see a planet prostrate? I will leave that discrepancy for you to concern yourself with.
Why didn't you comment on the rest? Is it because it disproves your view?This doesn't change the fact that sujud means prostration and that this was how the Quraish understood the word.
You talk much but evidence little.
To say "recite the Quran and recite the Quran" is quite peculiar.
Erm, maybe that's because it doesn't literally say that. Read it again.
I'm going to be blunt in saying that it doesn't matter how the Quran uses a word. What matters is the meaning that the people it was revealed to give its words. If the Quran gives different meanings to the Arabic words of the Quraish then the problem isn't the Quraish, its the Quran.
Thanks for being blunt. I believe our discussion is over.
I don't care much for some of the conspiracy theories that would need to be proposed to claim otherwise.
Is it still a conspiracy if Al Quran uses words hundreds of times and it never means what you want it to mean? How many times does AQ have to use the words to convince you? A thousand? Million? Billion? I will leave that for you to concern yourself with.
SHAKIR What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book wherein you read, that you have surely therein what you choose?
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Peace Bubbles
I love to discuss and share knowledge and learn from people. However, i think your opinions on Salaat is thread too different and it seems like we won't come to a conclusion. My style is that i like to come to a conclusion, an understanding that is based on reality, logic and facts. My time is valuable and i don't discuss just to discuss. I discuss to reach a conclusion. Something is either false or true, not both it. Therefore facts, objectivity and constructiveness is very important for me.
We should Never ignore Reality, cause Reality has teeths, it bites
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I think you are an intelligent women, but you conjecture much, and dismiss proofs and logic. On some issues you are in denial of reality. You conjecture and follow what you feel is right (Subjectiveness), rather than following reality(Objectiveness).
You haven't given me any proofs to consider. I am not in denial about anything I just want to understand why anyone would think that salat isn't prayer. My initial intention wasn't to disprove anyone, it was to dispel some of the issues that I had regarding salat based on the Quran alone. Instead you're saying I'm in denial, without proving me wrong with your logic, facts and proofs. You believe in some wacky conspiracy theories about Christianity corrupting Islam and causing the Arabs to misunderstand salat, but you haven't provided any evidence for that.
My rule is that if i am going to discuss with someone on an issue, they should bring proofs that can back up their claims. If someone claims too much without having evidence/proofs to back up their claims (Historical, Quranical or Scientifical proofs), THEN i won't discuss further with them on an issue. I don't like when people ignore facts. We should never think we know everything or we are always right. Humbleness is an important trait many persons need to learn. Since we can't come to an agrement on this issue(Salat), i think we should just agree to disagree )
I'm tired of this discussion also, I guess that leaves me in the same position I started in.
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Ignoring the fact that it wasn't even on about obedience to Allah.... since a physical prostration doesn't make sense, it must be allegorical? Fair enough, I already knew it wasn't a physical prostration. Do you also know that it says Joseph used his "raayt" for this? "raayt" is primarily used to mean see with the eyes. How does one see a planet prostrate? I will leave that discrepancy for you to concern yourself with.
Why didn't you comment on the rest? Is it because it disproves your view?At the moment I would be more willing to accept that the Quran uses the word incorrectly than to believe that sujud doesn't literally mean prostration. You've given me no reason to believe that sujud means anything else. What Joseph saw was from a dream anyway so he didn't actually see any stars prostrating. 126, "Thus, your Lord will select you, teach you the interpretation of dreams, and grant His favors to you and the family of Jacob, just as He granted His favors to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac. Your Lord is certainly All-knowing and All-wise."
The reason I didn't comment on the other verses you referenced is because I didn't actually check them. I assumed it was similar to 124 and I don't have the willpower to check every single reference you give. I've already read so many of the articles you've given and I'm getting rather tired of this now.
You talk much but evidence little.
Classical Arabic dictionaries? Hadiths? Historians? Scholars of Arabic? To disagree with all of them would require some kind of conspiracy theory. Do you believe that the Quraish understood salat to not mean prayer? If that is the case do you think that Bukhari just popped up 200 years later and convinced all the Arabs that they were wrong and changed the meaning of salat?
Erm, maybe that's because it doesn't literally say that. Read it again.
brickwall I think I realise that.
Thanks for being blunt. I believe our discussion is over.
Alhamdulilah
Is it still a conspiracy if Al Quran uses words hundreds of times and it never means what you want it to mean? How many times does AQ have to use the words to convince you? A thousand? Million? Billion? I will leave that for you to concern yourself with.
SHAKIR What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book wherein you read, that you have surely therein what you choose?
Why do you believe the Quran is divinely inspired anyway? If every single word in the Quran is under scrutiny and we cannot be sure what the meanings of certain words are, what reason would I have for believing that the Arabic used in it is beautiful? If Muhammed's history is irrelevant why should I believe that he wasn't a power hungry liar?
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Peace be upon you,
The God does not shy from similitudes. In 2008, are people still following the idea that GOD is some old man in the sky that must be literally bowed and prostrated to? And what do those postures do for your character? Wouldnt it be better to just to submit to the laws of the created universe?
I havent read this entire thread, but has the question arose about how one can enter the gate prostrating?
Also the believers prostrate upon hearing the word of God...does that mean when I am crossing the expressway and I hear the word of God, I must get on the ground? Wouldnt it be more effective to adjust your character to what you hear? Can you not see the wisdom of that simiitude of "prostration" meaning taking the information and using it?
Have the millions of people who physically prostrate changed the character of thier group? Or is it the group who "mentally prostrates" that has more success?
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Peace,
Respectfully.To brother God Within
The Exalted God AllPowerful, The Most Just, does not need us, our prayers nor prostrations or our following or not following His Law.
God exists, regardless of some movements on this tiny little planet, which He can make go away in a single word"Be" and it happens, it's gone.God AllPowerful wants us to obey Him.
If we obey God, we are rewarded with Paradise, if not, we are punished with Hell.
You won't hurt God by disobeying Him nor will you help Him by obeying Him, He does not need help, me, you, this planet and He existed prior to the birth of the Milky Way and even the universe.God creates what He wants and makes things dead too, whatever He wants.
Glory be to God.Peace.
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My belief is that God wants us to "prostrate" ourselves both physically and mentally so that we can show our obedience to God and strengthen our relationship with Him. Perhaps Salat is a form of meditation or maybe its a set way to ensure that we remember God throughout the day and exert ourselves in the form of bowing, prostrating, reciting Quran and reflecting on its meaning to show our love for the creator and to humble ourselves. Salat shouldn't just be a set of physical movements, but should also be a time for remembrance of God and spiritual growth that should hopefully reflect in ones character.
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salaam
verse 2125 according to 'The Message - Progressive Muslims'
2125 - And We have made the Dwelling to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take from the situation of Abraham for communion. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael ?You shall purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating.?
please consider this
2125 - And We have made meditation (bayt) a refuge (mathabatan) for man, and a way to appease the mind (amnan). And you should make out of Ibrahim's position (maqam) as one who has arrived home (mussallan). And We have assigned Ibrahim and Ismael to refine the meditation on Me (baytiya) for those wandering in mind (ta'ifeen) while in devotion ('akifeen), and respectfully (sujood) acknowledging (ruku'.
in 2124 consider 'bi-kalimatin' as 'logically.' the first part could read;
2124 Since Ibrahim has arrived at a conclusion about his Lord logically, therefore he has concluded them, ...
please spend some time to ponder. and ponder. and ask God for guidance. insha-Allah He will guide you. and please apply the suggested meaning for all the respective words used in al-Qur'an, insha-Allah, a comprehension will be given. just ponder. and ponder. and ask the Lord.
without prejudice, please.
peace
joe
