My Understanding of 4:15-16
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After a discussion on homosexuality in this forum , I became convinced that the Quran doesn?t forbid same-sex marriage; however, I wasn?t left with a clear understanding of 415-16. After some thinking, some reading and some analyzing, I came to the following conclusions with regard to 415-16
415-16 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
Alatee Yateena Al Fahisha is a noun phrase that refers to a number of women while Waallathani Yatiyaniha Minkum refers to two men only. I think the fact that 415 talks about several women and prescribes a punishment for them if they commit lewdness, and that 416 prescribes the same punishment for two men who commit the same crime (?And the two men who commit it?) is an indication that these verses are about prostitutes and not homosexuals. 415 simply can?t be about lesbianism because it mentions a group of women and lesbian women don?t always engage in group sex. There are more female prostitutes than male prostitutes which seems to be the second reason why God would mention a group of women (the first reason being a way to indicate that the verse isn?t about homosexuals). In addition to forbidding female prostitution, the Quran also forbids male prostitution in 416 and it prescribes the same punishment for male prostitutes and punters in the same verse as for female prostitutes. It?s significant that 416 doesn?t specify the punishment for ?the two men? because this forces us to conclude that these two men are to punished the same way and for the same crime mentioned in the preceding verse (415). So in summary, 415 makes it illegal for women to be prostitutes, and the wording of 416 puts it in the context of 415, so one of the two men mentioned in 416 is a male prostitute and a male punter is mentioned because men are more likely to pay for sex than women {, & }.
The punishment the Quran prescribes for adultery and which applies only to those people who willingly come under Islamic jurisdiction is a hundred symbolic lashes in public, but 415 prescribes house arrest. Either 242 would abrogate 415 or 415 would abrogate 242 if 415-16 were about people who commit Al Zinna . It seems that God?s reasons for ordaining that convicted prostitutes be put under house arrest are to isolate prostitutes who could be infected with STDs from the rest of the population so that they don?t infect others, to protect prostitutes from further exploitation and from pimps who could be violent, and to prevent the general public from learning their identities. Unlike people who commit Al Zinna, prostitutes make a living through selling their bodies and often there?s just no feasible alternative for prostitutes (which explains what God means by ?Till God creates another way for them?), so God wants us to protect their identities to prevent them from being discriminated against. Finally, prostitution certainly counts as a Fahisha (transgression).
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No.
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After a discussion on homosexuality in this forum , I became convinced that the Quran doesn?t forbid same-sex marriage; however, I wasn?t left with a clear understanding of 415-16. After some thinking, some reading and some analyzing, I came to the following conclusions with regard to 415-16
415-16 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
Alatee Yateena Al Fahisha is a noun phrase that refers to a number of women while Waallathani Yatiyaniha Minkum refers to two men only. I think the fact that 415 talks about several women and prescribes a punishment for them if they commit lewdness, and that 416 prescribes the same punishment for two men who commit the same crime (?And the two men who commit it?) is an indication that these verses are about prostitutes and not homosexuals. 415 simply can?t be about lesbianism because it mentions a group of women and lesbian women don?t always engage in group sex. There are more female prostitutes than male prostitutes which seems to be the second reason why God would mention a group of women (the first reason being a way to indicate that the verse isn?t about homosexuals). In addition to forbidding female prostitution, the Quran also forbids male prostitution in 416 and it prescribes the same punishment for male prostitutes and punters in the same verse as for female prostitutes. It?s significant that 416 doesn?t specify the punishment for ?the two men? because this forces us to conclude that these two men are to punished the same way and for the same crime mentioned in the preceding verse (415). So in summary, 415 makes it illegal for women to be prostitutes, and the wording of 416 puts it in the context of 415, so one of the two men mentioned in 416 is a male prostitute and a male punter is mentioned because men are more likely to pay for sex than women {, & }.
The punishment the Quran prescribes for adultery and which applies only to those people who willingly come under Islamic jurisdiction is a hundred symbolic lashes in public, but 415 prescribes house arrest. Either 242 would abrogate 415 or 415 would abrogate 242 if 415-16 were about people who commit Al Zinna . It seems that God?s reasons for ordaining that convicted prostitutes be put under house arrest are to isolate prostitutes who could be infected with STDs from the rest of the population so that they don?t infect others, to protect prostitutes from further exploitation and from pimps who could be violent, and to prevent the general public from learning their identities. Unlike people who commit Al Zinna, prostitutes make a living through selling their bodies and often there?s just no feasible alternative for prostitutes (which explains what God means by ?Till God creates another way for them?), so God wants us to protect their identities to prevent them from being discriminated against. Finally, prostitution certainly counts as a Fahisha (transgression).
This is an interesting angle. The fact that it says "ya'atina" imperfect action, which suggest that it is a running thing and then to keep them in the houses, which rings the bell of "get them off the streets and don't let them back on them", in fact supports Supernaut's understanding. See if we get some more points of view.
Concerning "homosexuality". I still think that it is not so much the Quran but ourselves that we should ask in detail. The quran is generous, it gives us limits, it gives us plenty of space to experience without having people preying on our privacy. The Quran gives us ideals and purpose and plenty of facts and pointers to reflect and think. On the other hand it doesn't give us labels. Other than that again most things are in the mind and many attitudes and concepts widely held are grounded on social conventions and unwarranted assumptions not in any deep conviction or emotional longing of the heart of the persons. For certain purposes it doesn't matter, for others it may tragic.
Salaam
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After a discussion on homosexuality in this forum , I became convinced that the Quran doesnt forbid same-sex marriage;
Please read the story of people of Lut before saying your FATWA
(٠ (١ (٢ (٣ (٤
We also (sent) Lut he said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (7-80)
"For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." (81)
And his people gave no answer but this they said "Drive them out of your city these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" (82)
But We saved him and his family except his wife she was of those who lagged behind. (83)
And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone) then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime! (84)(٤ (٥ (٦ (٧ (٨ (٩ (٠ (١ (٢ (٣
When fear had passed from (the mind of) Abraham and the glad tidings had reached him, he began to plead with Us for Lut's people. (11-74)
For Abraham was, without doubt forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and given to look to Allah. (75)
O Abraham! seek not this. The decree of thy Lord hath gone forth for them there cometh a Penalty that cannot be turned back! (76)
When Our Messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said "This is a distressful day." (77)
And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practicing abominations. He said "O my people! Here are my daughters they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?" (7
They said "Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!" (79)
He said "Would that I had power to suppress you or that I could betake myself to some powerful support." (80)
(The Messengers) said "O Lut! we are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! Now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back but thy wife (will remain behind) to her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed is not the morning nigh?" (81)
When Our decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer (82)
Marked as from thy Lord nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! (83)415-16 And those of your women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out. And the two men who commit it from amongst you, you shall trouble them. If they repent and amend, then leave them alone. God is Redeemer, Merciful.
Please, read the following answer regarding a similar Question.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16775.msg167841#msg167841
Salam
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Please read the story of people of Lut before saying your FATWA
I take it that you didn't go through the thread on homosexuality to which I gave a link to. I think you should.
Please, read the following answer regarding a similar Question.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16775.msg167841#msg167841
I completely disagree with what you said because 242 can't abrogate 415 (1827, 6115 and 7837).
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I completely disagree with what you said because 242 can't abrogate 415 (1827, 6115 and 7837).
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar; knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things? (2-106)
18-27, 6-15,78-37 verses have nothing to do with abrogating quranic verses; aboragating can only be done by God alone. Thus, as a believer, I can not deny that God can abrogate any verse he wish to, according to 2-106. And once he does, he would change to the better, as he did in 24-2.
Peace -
Peace brother Belal,
http//www.freequranonline.org/quranic-abrogation
I found the above article convincing against the case for abrogation.
As for Homosexual marriages the Quran only talks about marriage to people of the opposite sex.
422 And do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and a bad path.
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers sisters, and your mothers sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the already protected from the women, except those committed to you by oath; God?s scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing protected women, God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the protected women. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
426 God wants to make clear for you and guide you to the ways of those before you, and pardon you, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
427 And God wants to pardon you, but those who follow desires want that you would be diverted into a great diversion.
428 God wants to make easy for you; and mankind was created weak. -
Peace brother Belal,
http//www.freequranonline.org/quranic-abrogation
I found the above article convincing against the case for abrogation.
As for Homosexual marriages the Quran only talks about marriage to people of the opposite sex.
Peace brother
I did not know that there were an isuee with verse 2-106 and its meaning. I looked at the artical you mentioned quickly; from my first look, I think I need to study the topic deeply in order to give an opinion of either agree or disagree. I promiss you I will do that soon.
May Good Bless you peace -
After a discussion on homosexuality in this forum , I became convinced that the Quran doesn?t forbid same-sex marriage;
/quote]Peace,
Respectfully.You are wrong.
The Exalted God Most Merciful did not forget anything in the Quran.
Which prophet said that it was disgusting when he discovered that men desire men instead of women?
Did God said to him not to reprimand them?
No.
Lut's people i think were doing these things where men apparently wanted men and not women, sexually, so he said that is awful, disgusting, right?Can someone find that verse please? Thank you.
God bless you.Peace.
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After a discussion on homosexuality in this forum , I became convinced that the Quran doesn?t forbid same-sex marriage;
/quote]Peace,
Respectfully.You are wrong.
The Exalted God Most Merciful did not forget anything in the Quran.
Which prophet said that it was disgusting when he discovered that men desire men instead of women?
Did God said to him not to reprimand them?
No.
Lut's people i think were doing these things where men apparently wanted men and not women, sexually, so he said that is awful, disgusting, right?Can someone find that verse please? Thank you.
God bless you.Peace.
Peace
I wrote the verses in my first reply.
Peace -
That doesn't mean it forbids same-sex marriage.
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or that which your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (4-3)
That is what God allow for Man to Marry. And if he choose another Sex, then
) Who are active in deeds of charity; (23-4) Who abstain from sex, (5) Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess for (in their case) they are free from blame, (6) But those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors (7)
What do you understand from these verses, along with LUT story?
Peace -
Peace
This is my honest understanding, I hope I don't offend anyone.
If you read the story of Lot, God specifically says LUST. "Why do you lust after men..." God tells us that lusting/fornication is bad for us and therefore unlawful (God doesn't ban anything good to us, but the devil makes our evil look appear alluring to us.). REMEMBER God does not leave anything out that is important, God specifically did not say "Why do you love men..." therefore God has not specifically banned homosexual love/marriage but forbids lewd, explicit acts ie orgies, rape etc but this is for both same and opposite sex interactions!Belalhammad when you refer to "but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors" I think the Qur'an is referring to sex outside of marriage including homosexual sex, which is why it comes after the "marriage bond" part, the funny thing is you put it in context so you made your point void. Your point would be accepted if it was in the context of "and those who abstain from MARRIAGE BETWEEN THE SAME SEX.... but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors..." there is no context like this, use your reason?
Give me one verse that says "You are not to marry or love men, you are not to live in tranquility with men" It DOES say women were created as partners for us to live with in love and tranquility. But God does not explicitly forbid homosexual love. If it was truly evil God would explicitly ban it just like pork, blood, adultery, fornication in Sura 2 and throughout the Qur'an and there would be no way around it, because the Qur'an is a CLEAR explanation of things. But God is most merciful. I understand there are those born attracted to men and can't help it (same for homosexual women as well). Those who are living feeling depressed because they do not feel normal and stay in the closet, lose friends and are afraid of their family's rejection. These are natural gays, God created them just like God created the blind, the lame and the terminally ill, But there are some people who are "bi" and grow up in a world unsure of their sexuality where homosexual lust is presented as an option that is normal, when it isn't by God's standard but its accepted therefore they say "ok I must be gay, let me be gay" when they could have gone the other way if they read the Qur'an, (maybe they would find another homosexual and get married), these are nurtured gays (ie gays by their environment not by birth). God is the most just of all Judges he will decide for all mankind. Homosexuality is such a grey area and that's the best way I decipher it. I am not homophobic in the least, I accept it as part of society because natural gays can't help how they were born. I pray for those who are confused and need guidance and I hope they are happy wherever they end up. Those who are homophobic and think homosexuality is unnatural (it is natural just not normal) will read what they want in the Qur'an and will remain close-minded and will not try to understand how hard it is to grow up homosexual. We will all return to God in the end.
Peace
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Peace
This is my honest understanding, I hope I don't offend anyone.
If you read the story of Lot, God specifically says LUST. "Why do you lust after men..." God tells us that lusting/fornication is bad for us and therefore unlawful (God doesn't ban anything good to us, but the devil makes our evil look appear alluring to us.). REMEMBER God does not leave anything out that is important, God specifically did not say "Why do you love men..." therefore God has not specifically banned homosexual love/marriage but forbids lewd, explicit acts ie orgies, rape etc but this is for both same and opposite sex interactions!You are wrong, please reread the verse
"For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." (7-81)
The Sin is Lust on man instead of Women.
Peace
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You are wrong, please reread the verse
"For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." (7-81)
The Sin is Lust on man instead of Women.
Peace
Yes, you are right. The Sin is lust on man instead of Women. I was not wrong, I just shortened the quote, I still agree with this verse.
Now tell me a verse, a fragment in the Qur'an where EXPLICITLY says you cannot love men instead of women, just like fornication, adultery, pork, blood, murder are EXPLICITLY banned. Give me one sentence where it says you cannot marry a man. Do not give me a verse you used previously because I already rebutted against that. You know well the difference between lust and love in the Qur'an, God mentions love in the Qur'an therefore it exists. Now show me.
To make my point even more clear, I will quote from the Qur'an
"And Lot when He said to his people, 'You practise outrageous acts that no people before you have ever commited. How can you lust after men, waylay travellers, and commit evil in your gatherings?"
It's pretty clear with this verse and that verse you used that lust and sexual abuse is the clear route to evil whether with men or women. Like I said before show me part of the Qur'an against Man loving Man. Don't get me wrong, Man loving Women is the normal way of things because it is the only way procreation occurs. But that does not mean homosexuality is not part of nature (research on homosexual animals).
Another quote you used
"If two men commit a lewd act, punish them both; if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone - God is always ready to accept repentance, He is full of mercy."
The DEFINITION of lewd, in the quotes you used is driven by lust; preoccupied with or exhibiting lustful desires. Therefore acts homosexual or NOT that are lewd/lustful/libidinous/lascivious are evil. Love between men is not defined as evil. Prove me wrong.
Peace
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I dont think homosexuality love is a sin, from what I have seen in the Quran, but I do believe that if it is done in place of a woman, a woman who has been brought into contact with a homosexual man, then it is a sin, cos the woman is left hanging.....
The sin comes when the option of the woman comes into play...it says it plain as day in 781"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
I know that sounds odd, but I have my reasons for feeling this...........
The Quran uses the word transgressing a bit, and I feel it points to acts that are done, when one knows what one is doing is wrong.....If you are a homosexual that doesnt think that what he is doing has been wrong then fine, one cant be a sinner in ignorance....its when one KNOWS.......
Peace
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Yes, you are right. The Sin is lust on man instead of Women. I was not wrong, I just shortened the quote, I still agree with this verse.
Now tell me a verse, a fragment in the Qur'an where EXPLICITLY says you cannot love men instead of women, just like fornication, adultery, pork, blood, murder are EXPLICITLY banned. Give me one sentence where it says you cannot marry a man. Do not give me a verse you used previously because I already rebutted against that. You know well the difference between lust and love in the Qur'an, God mentions love in the Qur'an therefore it exists. Now show me.
To make my point even more clear, I will quote from the Qur'an
"And Lot when He said to his people, 'You practise outrageous acts that no people before you have ever commited. How can you lust after men, waylay travellers, and commit evil in your gatherings?"
It's pretty clear with this verse and that verse you used that lust and sexual abuse is the clear route to evil whether with men or women. Like I said before show me part of the Qur'an against Man loving Man. Don't get me wrong, Man loving Women is the normal way of things because it is the only way procreation occurs. But that does not mean homosexuality is not part of nature (research on homosexual animals).
Another quote you used
"If two men commit a lewd act, punish them both; if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone - God is always ready to accept repentance, He is full of mercy."
The DEFINITION of lewd, in the quotes you used is driven by lust; preoccupied with or exhibiting lustful desires. Therefore acts homosexual or NOT that are lewd/lustful/libidinous/lascivious are evil. Love between men is not defined as evil. Prove me wrong.
Peace
Lust was used to translate the word ?Shahowa?. Shahowa is only permitted between man & woman; sexual desire that leads to sex is only permitted between man and woman; Sex is not permitted between Man and Man, Woman & Woman, Man & animal, or Woman & animal.
Therefore, Love relationship THAT leads to SEX is only permitted between MAN & WOMAN, according to GOD WORDS. That is how human use their Brain to reason.
Use the IF & THEN LOGIC to reach to this conclusion.
Sure you can LOVE your DAD, MOM, SON, and FRIEND from the same sex, but you cannot Have a sexual relationship with them or Marry them; why? Because it is a FORBIDDEN ACT.Peace