The FICTIONAL ANT of the Qur'an
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Peace again,
To be fair with bro "layth" though i just remebered he could argue that the talking to ants, resurrecting the dead, understanding the bird's language etc etc mentioned in the Quran are all part of GOD's laws of the unvierse and that we just havnt discovered them yet. Id also like to hear an answer in regards to this. GOD Bless! -
peace
yes they are all part of science, but that doesn't necessary means they are right.
we are all trying to understand which are the right interpretation.but even Lane's Lexicon mentions that namlah is a tribe
Nun-Miim-Lam = to slander, disclose a thing maliciously, climb. Ant. namil - clever man. Name of a valley situated between Jibrin and Asqalaan a town on the seacost 12 miles to the north of Gaza, in Sinai and namlah is the name of a tribe living in this valley. anaamil - fingers.peace
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Peace again,
To be fair with bro "layth" though i just remebered he could argue that the talking to ants, resurrecting the dead, understanding the bird's language etc etc mentioned in the Quran are all part of GOD's laws of the unvierse and that we just havnt discovered them yet. Id also like to hear an answer in regards to this. GOD Bless!quran is not static or limited to one interpretation, its like this universe we discover new things according to our current knowledge of this universe... when those laws will be discovered its interpretation would be changed. We only can interpret quran according to our current knowledge which suggests these events are not in the line of universal laws and thus the best and correct (not final) interpretation is to take these as allegorical.
There is a very beautiful analysis of the word mu3jiza-miracle and ayas on another thread
You're right.
The word "mu3jiza miracle" does not exist in the qur'aan, although other derivatives of the same root are. The meaning of 3jz is to be unable to do something, hence 3ajuuz could be old or unable to give birth as in verses 1172 and 5129. The transitive form of the verb (a3jaza) from which is directly derived the word "mu3jiza" is also used and generally means inacessible. mu3jiz (as an active participle) exists in the qur'aan, but not mu3jiza (noun).
God speaks of His "ayas". This does not mean that His ayas are accessible to us, but we can understand them because they follow a law (that's also an aya in itself). When we are unable to find this law, we usually speak of "mu3jiza". A mu3jiza is an out of order event, aya is very much in order, the order of God, which He states to us.
The more people understand the laws of God, the more ayas they see and the less miracles they believe in. That's why God commands us to study ourselves and investigate the universe around us in search of His ayas. Miracles do not need to be studied, because they follow no law.peace
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quran is not static or limited to one interpretation, its like this universe we discover new things according to our current knowledge of this universe... when those laws will be discovered its interpretation would be changed. We only can interpret quran according to our current knowledge which suggests these events are not in the line of universal laws and thus the best and correct (not final) interpretation is to take these as allegorical.
you are absolutely right
i couldn't have said it bettermaybe 10 years later, many verses of the quran would also change their meanings to that particular time frame understandings.
this is why the quran is a living book, meant to all mankind, that also mean not only for those 1000 years ago nor 1000 ahead
interesting analysis of mu3jiza indeed
the more the human progress the less they believe in miracles
things start to give meanings they didn't understand before, and thus labeled them miracles.peace
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Peace "RasulHamsa",
quran is not static or limited to one interpretation, its like this universe we discover new things according to our current knowledge of this universe... when those laws will be discovered its interpretation would be changed. We only can interpret quran according to our current knowledge which suggests these events are not in the line of universal laws and thus the best and correct (not final) interpretation is to take these as allegorical.
JK- But if this is the method we use to analyse the Quran i.e. always change interpretation and make it suit reality, then what is special aboout the Quran? This can be done with any book i.e. make the statements match with reality after the discovery. What wluld make the Quran special is the very point that people would make predictions based on its statements which later are independently confirmed in reality. So i guess youll have to rephrase this even if i agree with most of wht is said by "jibbo". GOD Bless!
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Peace "jibbo",
but even Lane's Lexicon mentions that namlah is a tribe
Nun-Miim-Lam = to slander, disclose a thing maliciously, climb. Ant. namil - clever man. Name of a valley situated between Jibrin and Asqalaan a town on the seacost 12 miles to the north of Gaza, in Sinai and namlah is the name of a tribe living in this valley. anaamil - fingers.JK- This is a valid point and should be focussed on. Contemporary Arabic has been polluted alot with sunni/shia mythology whilst the old was was also to to some extent by judeo-christian mythlogy. Lanes presnts alot from the neutral Arabic not influenced by religion. GOD Bless!
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Peace "RasulHamsa",
JK- But if this is the method we use to analyse the Quran i.e. always change interpretation and make it suit reality, then what is special aboout the Quran? This can be done with any book i.e. make the statements match with reality after the discovery. What wluld make the Quran special is the very point that people would make predictions based on its statements which later are independently confirmed in reality. So i guess youll have to rephrase this even if i agree with most of wht is said by "jibbo". GOD Bless!not the whole quran but the stories taken as miracles, and its not changing the interpretations all the time its just using the right method to get the most suitable explanation or we are not God to say this is the final and no other interpretation can be right! or do you suggest any other method to get the right meaning? BTW do not forget the essence of the book which is the most important part that makes the book special "Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi"
peace
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lets use this aas an example
2130 Did those who reject not see that the
heavens and the earth were one mass
and We tore them apart? That We
made from the water everything that
lives. Will they not acknowledge?this is crystal clear explanation of the big bang.
but before the big bang theory how clear was that verse ?the same is with studying the story's
reading the qur'an too literal, and end's up with the same understandings before, that is miracles.
on the other hand one needs to study arabic, and science.
and keep an open mind to new ideas. -
Peace "jibbo",
lets use this aas an example
2130 Did those who reject not see that the
heavens and the earth were one mass
and We tore them apart? That We
made from the water everything that
lives. Will they not acknowledge?this is crystal clear explanation of the big bang.
but before the big bang theory how clear was that verse ?JK- Before "big bang" people shldve made a prediction that this would be discovered and understood it the same way literally as it is written. If theyd taken it symbolically at tht time and then suddenly a new generation takes it literally this would be called matching to suit reality which can be done with any scripture. People in the past however could imagine the heavens and earth being together in their heads and they accepted it as such. They just coudnt prove it as yet.
the same is with studying the story's
reading the qur'an too literal, and end's up with the same understandings before, that is miracles.
on the other hand one needs to study arabic, and science.
and keep an open mind to new ideas.JK- We shld keep an open mind BUT THE MEANINGS OF ANY VERSES IN THE QURAN MUST BE 1) GRMMATICALLY ACCEPTABLE 2) THE MEANINGS OF THE WORDS TRANSLATED OR THE MEANING OF AN ALLEGORICAL OR PROVERB IF TRANSLATED AS SUCH MUST BE PRESENT IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE. These are the boundaries in which we can work. WE CAN BY NO MEANS INVENT new meanings or take such which just evolved into Arabic recently. We must work with the set of meanings of Arabic words, any proverbs and the grammar rules which were present at the time of the rev of the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace "rasul hamsa",
not the whole quran but the stories taken as miracles, and its not changing the interpretations all the time its just using the right method to get the most suitable explanation or we are not God to say this is the final and no other interpretation can be right! or do you suggest any other method to get the right meaning? BTW do not forget the essence of the book which is the most important part that makes the book special "Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi"
peace
JK- We must work within the meanings of the words present at the time of the rev of the Quran and the grammar rules. WE can by NO MEANS INVENT new meanings or take meanings of Arabic words which evolved later into the language. THIS is the crucial point i was talking about. If we had an unlimited pool of meanings available for the Arabic words then the Quran was nothing special as any book couldve been adjusted to reality by picking and choosing the meanings. Get my pt now? GOD Bless!
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peace Jk
JK- Before "big bang" people shldve made a prediction that this would be discovered and understood it the same way literally as it is written. If theyd taken it symbolically at tht time and then suddenly a new generation takes it literally this would be called matching to suit reality which can be done with any scripture. People in the past however could imagine the heavens and earth being together in their heads and they accepted it as such. They just coudnt prove it as yet.
yes you are right, they could accept it as reality and see it in their head, but how?
what was the heavens long time ago ? could they see beyond the sky?, stars.and the matter would be senseless, the verse is meant more for our time, 1400 years ago no one would have made that right prediction about the big bang.
so in other words, they could accept it, but wouldn't make any sense at that time.
JK- We shld keep an open mind BUT THE MEANINGS OF ANY VERSES IN THE QURAN MUST BE 1) GRMMATICALLY ACCEPTABLE 2) THE MEANINGS OF THE WORDS TRANSLATED OR THE MEANING OF AN ALLEGORICAL OR PROVERB IF TRANSLATED AS SUCH MUST BE PRESENT IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE. These are the boundaries in which we can work. WE CAN BY NO MEANS INVENT new meanings or take such which just evolved into Arabic recently. We must work with the set of meanings of Arabic words, any proverbs and the grammar rules which were present at the time of the rev of the Quran. GOD Bless!
yes yes 100%
modern readers of the qur'an mix the modern with classical, while many words means the same, by no means is the modern arabic right over the classical.
this is very important point, most modern arabic readers mix them up.
many don't even know that there is difference between the two.studying classical arabic opens the door to much better interpretation.
for example many people when they are told not to follow the shaitan, they think of it as not following the whisper in their ears, and if they some time make some kind od sin, crime, they say the shaitan made me so it.
this is so wrong we have absolutely control over our own self.
as for the shaitan
= Shiin-Tay-Nun (root of shaytan) = become distant/far/remote, enter firmly / become firmly fixed therein / penetrate and be concealed, turn away in opposition (from direction/aim), devil, one excessively proud/corrupt, unbelieving/rebellious/insolent/audacious/obstinate/perverse, rope, deep curved well, it burned, became burnt, serpent, any blameable faculty or power of a man.that is any thing that makes you distant from god
shiatan is a more lively word then believing him as a being.take for example alcohol
alcohol could separate us from god and cause trouble between us humans there for it is following the shaitan, for some, not all.
what if you are told by your doctor to take some kind of medicine that has alcohol in it, is it following shaytan?
absolutely not, by no means does is separate you from god.the right is not the same as wrong, it's easy to separate them, when making use of what we know.
salam
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Peace "jibbo",
If you agree on using the limited set of available meanings and the grammatical rules of classical arabic to interpret the Quran then i agree with tht too. One point id like to add is the cross referencing with other Quranic verses to see whether the applied meaning gives sense in all those verses sepaking about a similar topic/event. GOD Bless! -
Peace "jibbo",
Also the Quran has predictive power in its statements. Consider the verse with talks abt GOD creating a "daaba" in 2782 to inform us tht wer not certain abt his revelations. Daaba is either a moving or creeping creature made of water as per other verses of the Quran. This predicts the volution of a creature evolving sometime in a future and indeed scientists came together and int he documentary "the future is wild" predict that the cephalopods(octopus family) would one day be amongst the intelligent beings. Another is "seven heavens". The best and consistent with opther verses prediction im making is tht it refers to seven clearly observable in the future boundaries inside this universe or it being divided into 7 parts each with its own distinct fields and perhaps even distinct laws. Yet another is in 759 where the "sun and moon" crash into one another. this is yet another prediction which cld be very true since the moon is moving away few millimeters from earth every and sun as center has strongest firld so it cld be going there. GOD Bless! -
Peace again "jibbo",
If the Quran did not make correct and useful predictions, be it in the fields of astronomy, archaeology, geology, biology, human behaviour or any other field of science then it wldnt be useful and wouldnt serve as a guide but rather as a hindrance. GOD Bless! -
peace JK
If you agree on using the limited set of available meanings and the grammatical rules of classical arabic to interpret the Quran then i agree with tht too. One point id like to add is the cross referencing with other Quranic verses to see whether the applied meaning gives sense in all those verses sepaking about a similar topic/event. GOD Bless!
cross referencing is good, also one should know that many words have multiply meaning.
yes some verses explains others.Also the Quran has predictive power in its statements. Consider the verse with talks abt GOD creating a "daaba" in 2782 to inform us tht wer not certain abt his revelations. Daaba is either a moving or creeping creature made of water as per other verses of the Quran. This predicts the volution of a creature evolving sometime in a future and indeed scientists came together and int he documentary "the future is wild" predict that the cephalopods(octopus family) would one day be amongst the intelligent beings. Another is "seven heavens". The best and consistent with opther verses prediction im making is tht it refers to seven clearly observable in the future boundaries inside this universe or it being divided into 7 parts each with its own distinct fields and perhaps even distinct laws. Yet another is in 759 where the "sun and moon" crash into one another. this is yet another prediction which cld be very true since the moon is moving away few millimeters from earth every and sun as center has strongest firld so it cld be going there. GOD Bless!
yes the qur'an makes 100% right predictions of the future, but can we ?
what if this daaba means aliens? from earth, yes, but there is many earth's in the universe.
or it could be that cephalopods that you are talking about, some argue that it's the internet, let's say it's the internet, the internet exists know yet, we are not sure if we are right.7 heavens, are we sure what that means ?
7 in classical arabic could also mean several. so it could be talking about the universe as very big.
or is it talking about Multiverses?
are we sure we are right?in other words we can be wrong, but the qur'an can't because it's gods words, the creator of all the exist.
not odd he says he knows the seen and the unseen. -
Peace "jibbo",
yes the qur'an makes 100% right predictions of the future, but can we ?
what if this daaba means aliens? from earth, yes, but there is many earth's in the universe.
or it could be that cephalopods that you are talking about, some argue that it's the internet, let's say it's the internet, the internet exists know yet, we are not sure if we are right.JK- As i said it is necessary that WE AS HUMANS can use the Quran to make useful predictions ofcourse. IF thts not the case whatz use is the Quran then? The Quran is meant to guide us humans. If it doesnt allow US to make significant and useful predictions, MORE THAN OTHER RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURES, in any of the areas mentioned above, then how is it a guide? Did you understand this now?
7 heavens, are we sure what that means ?
7 in classical arabic could also mean several. so it could be talking about the universe as very big.
or is it talking about Multiverses?
are we sure we are right?in other words we can be wrong, but the qur'an can't because it's gods words, the creator of all the exist.
not odd he says he knows the seen and the unseen.JK- The Quran DOES NOT STAND ON ITS OWN. It is there because WE THE OBSERVERS ARE THERE. It is important to understand this. WE interpret the Quran and derive useful precitions from it in accordance with GOD's law. Yes it is possible that we have not interpreted something correct and wed correct ourselves but a SIGNIFIANT no of predictions shldve been right to prove the quran in the 1st place and make it the criterian. Get it? GOD Bless!
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salam JK
yes i undertand what you mean.
we need the qur'an to make useful prediction for it to be useful.
but that is no the issue, the issue is how do we know what it is predicting.some are clear to understand, some are not as i have demonstrated earlier.
if we follow the majority on earth we will be mislead, this is a fact, and easy to understand.
but some are not as easy, that is my point, how do we know the right thing before we can understand it?
i totally understand you, and you are right.
after all it does talk about the universe, we have not mastered the universe, and some verses have multiply meanings.
we can only understand things to the best of our knowledge, and what is right know, could be wrong in the future.
that doesn't mean we where wrong, because this was our understanding at that time.so science and qur'an have to go hand in hand for them to work
qur'an explains science, science explains qur'an
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salam JK
541 The moment drew near, and the moon
was split.
542 If they see a sign, they turn away and
say, "Continuous magic!"the moon was split when when human's traveled to the moon and took a piece of it.
this was the splitting of the moon.before the moon was split, how on earth could we understand that verse?
maybe if you have a very open mind you could understand it as thus, but that is very difficult.
so this was more like a sign,telling us," look the moon is split and the hour is near, it's a sign and a warning to humankind, warning us the matter is not over the qur'an is valid to you to this is a sign to you who ever you are, living at that time"get my point ?
peace