Moorish spain / Al-Andalus
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when the arab muslims ruled spain did they practice quran alone islam?
I watched a video about moorish spain, the non-muslim historian portrayed them very well; they just seemed too rational to be sunni/shia muslims.
does anyone know the branch of islam they practiced?
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Peace,
The Sunni of today are not the same as the "Sunni's" of the first centuries. In the beginning all grouops were Quran-alone. But slowly step-by-step Hadith gained more authority, especially after the Shafi-school gained more ground.
Why the first Sunni's were still so rational is because they put rationality and science above traditional thinking. They were not afraid to venture in new types of thinking. Eventually Andalusm became mostly Maliki-fiqh, but still very rational.
In the end they were destroyed because of division among the ruling cities and when the Berber-nomads gained control, who were mostly Ibn-Tamiyaa followers (Today's Wahabism & Salafism is also very Ibn-Tamiyaa like in certain ways), the whole glory of Andalus was destroyed.
When the glorious states fell and the ruling groups became more corrupted, the Hadith nonsense gained more ground and the schools blamed science and rational philosophy as the reason for the corruption and failure of the states. This is how in the middle ages eventually the Muslims became hostile to science and progress.
A Sunni of the year 1000 would have been shocked by the nonsense Sunni believe now.
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when the arab muslims ruled spain did they practice quran alone islam?
I watched a video about moorish spain, the non-muslim historian portrayed them very well; they just seemed too rational to be sunni/shia muslims.
To assume that the Sunnis and Shias of today are irrational is a harsh generalisation in my opinion. There are many Muslim philosophers and theologians today that do believe that the sayings of Muhammed are an important part of Islam, and they are far from being irrational.
does anyone know the branch of islam they practiced?
They were mostly Sunni. Generally back then if a Muslim wasn't a Shiite they were automatically a Sunni. Muhammed's sayings and teachings were seen as very important and both Sunnis and Shiites accepted this. Where Muslims differed was which of the sayings and doings of attributed to Muhammed were actually authentic.
One of the most well know among the people from Al-Andalus, Ibn Rushd (Averroes) who was a Physician, Philosopher and Mathematician was also a Scholar in the Maliki school of thought.
http//www.trincoll.edu/depts/phil/philo/phils/muslim/rushd.html
http//www.aljadid.com/classics/0320raslan.html -
To assume that the Sunnis and Shias of today are irrational is a harsh generalisation in my opinion. There are many Muslim philosophers and theologians today that do believe that the sayings of Muhammed are an important part of Islam, and they are far from being irrational.
when i meant irrational i was thinking of the leaders not the people, i had full blown sharia law in mind...
and i see no reason why ahadith should be studied for islamic reasons since the quran is complete.
do we actually have any examples of quran alone societies?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_translations_of_the_Qur%27an
and who was the first person to translate the arabic quran into another language?
so how and why did the reconquista happen?
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when i meant irrational i was thinking of the leaders not the people, i had full blown sharia law in mind...
Fair enough.
and i see no reason why ahadith should be studied for islamic reasons since the quran is complete.
To most Muslims, Muhammed is to be obeyed as well as the Quran, therefore Scholars deem it important to study Muhammed's history and the sayings that are attributed to him. Even if we were to assume that the Quran is complete in respect to religious obligation, for the purposes of increasing our knowledge and understanding the founder of such a popular religion, the sayings and doings that are attributed to Muhammed should still be studied.
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and i see no reason why ahadith should be studied for islamic reasons since the quran is complete.
The religion of islam practiced today is derived from ahadith, thats why its very important to understand and study them.
quran never ask us to stop using our minds so the question of its completeness is not important.
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Even if we were to assume that the Quran is complete in respect to religious obligation, for the purposes of increasing our knowledge and understanding the founder of such a popular religion, the sayings and doings that are attributed to Muhammed should still be studied.
Peace,
Respectfully.638 And there is not a creature in the Earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the record; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and Jinn devils - to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
(Could these fancy words be ... i don't know ... hadith books?????)6114 ?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.Need i say more?
Glory be to our God.
Peace. -
Can you please quote any verse where we are commanded to obey Muhammad and the quran?
O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4 59)
And whoever obeys All?h and His Messenger, All?h shall admit him in the Gardens underneath which rivers flow. (413)
And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of All?h. (464)
I think these verses show that Muhammed should be obeyed and I don't really see why I should just ignore everything that Muhammed commanded Muslims to do, he was the messenger and prophet of Allah after all. I don't believe that Muhammed was lying when he talked to his followers about Allah and aspects of Islam not mentioned in the Quran.
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O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4 59)
And whoever obeys All?h and His Messenger, All?h shall admit him in the Gardens underneath which rivers flow. (413)
And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of All?h. (464)
The word "rasool " is not "messenger", but primarily message. The "name" message/ is given to the person carrying it by extension. If you can type arabic, enter the word onto this collection of classical arabic dictionaries and read what they say
http//www.baheth.info/index.jsp
Secondly, Muhammad is different from the messenger. Muhammad dies, the messenger does not, simply because a message does not die. And Muhammad was not a "messenger" all his life. In fact, most of his life he was neither messenger nor prophet.
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The word "rasool " is not "messenger", but primarily message. The "name" message/ is given to the person carrying it by extension. If you can type arabic, enter the word onto this collection of classical arabic dictionaries and read what they say
http//www.baheth.info/index.jsp
As far as I'm aware risaalah means message and rasool means messenger. If Allah just wanted us to follow the message as you understand it then why not save us all the confusion?
Secondly, Muhammad is different from the messenger. Muhammad dies, the messenger does not, simply because a message does not die. And Muhammad was not a "messenger" all his life. In fact, most of his life he was neither messenger nor prophet.
Muhammed may not have been a messenger all his life, but he was a messenger as soon as the Quran began to be revealed to him. Muhammed was more than just a messenger, he was a teacher and an example.
"Allah has indeed shown grace to the believers in sending them a messenger from among themselves who reciteth unto them His revelations, and purifieth them and teacheth them the Book and Wisdom" (3164)
Here it mentions that the rasool is from "among themselves". If it meant message it wouldn't make much sence, the verse is clearly referring to a man from among the Quraish. It also mentions that one of the functions of the rasool is to teach "the book", the Quran."Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much" (3321)
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Salam Everyone
As far as I'm aware risaalah means message and rasool means messenger.
I agree
Muhammed may not have been a messenger all his life, but he was a messenger as soon as the Quran began to be revealed to him. Muhammed was more than just a messenger, he was a teacher and an example.
I agree, and add that he was a teacher of the Quran (he had a Great Hekma "Wisdom"
"Allah has indeed shown grace to the believers in sending them a messenger from among themselves who reciteth unto them His revelations, and purifieth them and teacheth them the Book and Wisdom" (3164)
Here it mentions that the rasool is from "among themselves". If it meant message it wouldn't make much sence, the verse is clearly referring to a man from among the Quraish. It also mentions that one of the functions of the rasool is to teach "the book", the Quran.You are right, God Bless You.
"Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much" (3321)
Now, it seams that you agree that any Hadith that Cancel out Quran verse, or associate new things that is not in the Quran about the Unseen "Gaip" is a Misleading Hadith. If that is the Case, you are right. But if you think that Hadith books is another revelation that Moslems should follow even if it adds more commendments over the Quran, then you are wrong.
Peace
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Salam Everyone
Now, it seams that you agree that any Hadith that Cancel out Quran verse, or associate new things that is not in the Quran about the Unseen "Gaip" is a Misleading Hadith. If that is the Case, you are right. But if you think that Hadith books is another revelation that Moslems should follow even if it adds more commendments over the Quran, then you are wrong.
Salaam
I don't believe that hadiths are another revelation exactly, and I believe like the rest of the Islamic schools of thought that the Quran has more authority. Hadiths are the sayings that are attributed to Muhammed and some may show Muhammed mentioning other commandments not mentioned in the Quran. They may also include Muhammed mentioning things that God has revealed to him which haven't had a mention in the Quran. What has been revealed to Muhammed may very well be "about the unseen" and recorded in hadith literature. I don't reject the validity of any hadith on the basis that it mentions extra commandments or something about the "unseen"; I don't really see why I should.
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Salaam
I don't believe that hadiths are another revelation exactly, and I believe like the rest of the Islamic schools of thought that the Quran has more authority. Hadiths are the sayings that are attributed to Muhammed and some may show Muhammed mentioning other commandments not mentioned in the Quran. They may also include Muhammed mentioning things that God has revealed to him which haven't had a mention in the Quran. What has been revealed to Muhammed may very well be "about the unseen" and recorded in hadith literature. I don't reject the validity of any hadith on the basis that it mentions extra commandments or something about the "unseen"; I don't really see why I should.
Say The things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; associating with Allah, for which he hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. (7-33)
Peace
The above verse is telling us to
NOT TO SAY ANY THING ABOUT THE RELIGION EXCEPT WHAT ARE IN THE BOOKS THAT WAS REVEALED FROM GOD THROUGH HIS AUTHORITY. Our knowledge about God and the Unseen, and the Religion is LIMITED TO WHAT ARE IN THE BOOK.
And if we do not do that "We are Associating with God what he did not say in the Quran"' and therefore, we are commiting "Shrik".Here how I understand the Bukari Hadith and Quran
Narrated is a word that was used to tell us the following
When Bukari wrote Narrated, he ment that he is about to write some thing that was never written BEFORE, but it is some thing that a person saying 250 years after the Prophet death. Thus, hadith were never written by the Prophet nor by the Kalifas. Thus it was not a ravelation that was sent from God throught Gbril. Know let me share with you thisAn example of a Quran verse if the Prophet would to use Narration
Narrated from Gerbil (PUH), the Holly Sprit, that
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. (24-2)An Example of Bukari Hadith with Narration System
Narrated from Termizi, from Elhafiz, from Aubiad allah, from yazeed, from Aboawn, from Mohamed bin Sereen, from Ibn Omer, from Ziad says we were reciting the verse ? The Old Man and the old Women if they comment audltry, stone them?; Then Marwan says ?should I write it (the verse) in the Quran? Omer bin Katab says ?I will tell you what to do?; Then he said (Omer) ?a man came to the prophet(PBUH) and recited the verse of stoning, and asked the prophet should I write the verse in the Quran?; the Prophet said ?I can not do it know (or some thing like that)?
" " . .Please note, there are more than 8 people, whom lived in different time; Please note that the first time that this hadit was written is after the death of all this people eccept the last one (Elhafiz).
Now can you tell me what are the diffrent between the two example?
Which example is the truth, which we shall judge with, Floging, or stoning?
Before you answer, think.I also wrote other points in the following links
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=16769.msg167714#msg167714http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=15353.msg167542#msg167542
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?action=profile;u=3149;sa=showPosts;start=195
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=16735.msg167615#msg167615
http//reflekterselv.com/freemind/index.php?topic=16809.msg168283#msg168283
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As far as I'm aware risaalah means message and rasool means messenger.
I agree
I think neither of you bothered to look up the link I provided. Shall I do your homework?
From Lisanul 3arab
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.From Qaamusul MuheeT
Al- Sahaah Fil Lugha
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Also, if you are familiar with old Arabic books, the word used for message is usually (rasool).
If Allah just wanted us to follow the message as you understand it then why not save us all the confusion?
What confusion? I suppose being commanded to obey the messenger is more confusing than to obey the message. Can you give me examples from the quraan on how to obey the messenger? What do you understand from "Obey the messenger"? How can I now obey the messenger? What commands did the messeneger give in the quraan so that I, in the 21st century, can obey? There are a lot of questions suggested to the messenger and are given then answers for by God. Where do you find what the messenger said when commanded to "say qul"? In fact, you do not hear the messenger but the message. If you are confused, it is not from God.
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guys can we stick to the topic....
Peace
Sure, but forgive me I have to reply to SamiaI think neither of you bothered to look up the link I provided. Shall I do your homework?
)
Samia, you Qouted the following
Please, before Quoting, read what you are Quoting. What you quoted was a refrance to verse 20-47. Here how verse 20-47 looks like in MY QURAN
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Your Quote refers to One Rassol, and the Quran Quote refers to "Two Rassol"
Any way, if Rassol means message, then verse 20-47 means that God Sent Moses and Haroon to Pherawn with "TWO MESSAGES", which is wrong; and the right meaning is "God told them to say that they (Haroon and Moses) are God's Messangers.
Thanks Angel peace
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Peace
Sure, but forgive me I have to reply to SamiaSamia, you Qouted the following
Please, before Quoting, read what you are Quoting. What you quoted was a refrance to verse 20-47. Here how verse 20-47 looks like in MY QURAN
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Your Quote refers to One Rassol, and the Quran Quote refers to "Two Rassol"
Peace every body
I want to clairfy a mistake in my post that I did Unintentionally
Samia was right in here quotation; there is another verse in chapter 26 (verse 16) that I overlooked, which says what Samia Quoted (Please forgive me Samia)
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In verse (26-16) Both (Haroon and Moses) were ordered by God to say "Ena Rassolo", which means "we are one Rasool".
I can not comment in this verse yet and its meaning untill I search it more; but for the time being, please forgive me for my mistake.(and I hope God will forgive me hail)
peace
