Right of intercession granted for the third group?
-
Intercession has caused much confusion because those who try to understand it don't know the exact nature of it. They do not know all the factors involved. When they see that some verses in the Qur'an say that there will be no intercession at all, and then other verses that say that there will not be any intercession except as Allah Wills, they get a bit confused.
I think the reason for this confusion is that they automatically assume that there will be 2 groups on the day of judgement, the left that the right.
But in 567 it clearly mentions how there will be three groups, the ELITE, the RIGHT, and the LEFT. The Surah goes on to explain the nature of each group. It mentions how members of the ELITE will consist of many of those of old, and few of those of later time. And that the RIGHT, will consist of many of both the old and of later time.So do the verses (103, 20109, 1987, 3423, 4386, 5326, etc.) that explicitly mention how intercession can occur WITH ALLAH's PERMISSION on the day of Judgement be directed to this third group?
There are many intelligent people on this forum who have more knowledge of the Qur'an than I do. Could you guys do research on the issue of intercession on the basis that there will be THREE groups on that day and not just simply two?
Thanks alot.
Salam. -
Confused Agnostic say
http//i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd212/fantasticvoyegr/lol_wut.gif
-
Peace,
Good topic but I don't understand why "Lost Philosopher" posted that picture and what that could possibly mean. I'm also having confusions regarding the subject of Intercession in which I also find Quran speaks in two different ways regarding Intercession as has been stated by "Air".
-
"LoL Wut" is a joke on the internet. Used when you have no understanding of what a person said. The picture is usually for random humor.
Just trying to be funny.
-
Peace,
Respectfully.You said
So do the verses (103, 20109, 1987, 3423, 4386, 5326, etc.) that explicitly mention how intercession can occur WITH ALLAH's PERMISSION on the day of Judgement be directed to this third group?Sunnis are making the wrong assumption they think that God will give that permission to Muhammad. In fact, sunnis storngly believe that without Muhammad - it is over.
Peace.
-
Peace,
I agree with my brother Ironsky...The best amongst us are the most rightoues, not the most knowledgeable.
As for your question, there is absolutely no intercession on J-day (2254) - the doors are closed so to speak.
The intercession that God speaks of exists while we are still alive and able, and on J-day, God will allow the good intecessions to be weighed in, while the bad intecessions will also be weighed (485).
To give a practicle example I pray for a relative for God to forgive him and guide him. On J-day, my prayer (intercession) will be looked at and if I am a good person and if the person I have prayed for is also deserving, then God authorizes this intercession and it counts for both me and the person I had prayed for.
On the other hand, I pray for God to smite a person. On j-day, my intercession (a bad intercession) is looked at and I get demerit points for makings such a request.
-
I have not researched the topic of groups at all.
I have not researched the intercession topic in the detail I would like, like 99% of Quran topics, but my understanding is as follows
Intercession makes no difference to the outcome. A central core of The Quran is the 'law of requital', i.e. get what you give, i.e. the outcome is determined by the individual's beliefs/actions.
It is natural and even expected for people (particularly the righteous?) to make supplication on behalf of others. God will/may allow this, but that does not mean allowing such supplication to take place will change the outcome.
If such supplication is "accepted", that does not necessarily mean the decision of God was based on the supplication, it would mean that the decision of God coincided with the supplication, thus the "supplication" has a status of accepted.
If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please bring it forth.
-
Peace to all,
yeh me to air, cause the rest of us are just stupid and unedjimucated peons, we shouldnt even have the right to think and speak for ourselves.
Kurt
I did not mean it that way bro
I meantioned these people's names because they have written articles that I have read and found to be interesting and enlightening. In other words, they are the only ones I know. I am new here and I don't know everyoneMy bad, sorry guys. Shoulda phrased it better. It sounded like I was saying that these people are smart and everyone else is dumb. I by no means meant that angel
Layth and Wakas you guys have come to the same conclusion, which makes sense in my opinion.
But do we really know who these people in the third group are? I think if we are able to figure this out, we can clarufy intercession ever FURTHER.But at the same time, the exact nature of the Day of Judgement is beyond human comprehesion therefore we may never fully know all teh factors involved.
Salam . )
-
Peace to all,
Actually, no need to apologize air, in fact i probably should, I took it the wrong way without trying to ask you your intentions, i need to be more patient and understanding. When i read it now i sound like a jerk, so all apologies brother, and I didnt mean to ruin your thread of an important and interesting issue.
ps, i do like wakas and layths answers, and im sure they are way more educated than me anyways.
Kurt handshake
-
peace all,
Re education/analysis
I would like to stress that the technique I use to analyse a topic or concept is very simple and I truly believe anyone can do it. It is usually not a matter of education. It only takes resources, time and discipline.
For example, I cannot stress enough the use of high quality study tools, e.g. those found at www.StudyQuran.org
Using these tools will allow you to do much better quality study of almost any topic in The Quran, it just takes time to read up on the information. I can guarantee everyone who has utilised these tools have found their study quality improve significantly.
The discipline aspect is very simple, but if not used to it, can take a little while for it to become a habit. What I mean by this is the way we approach a topic/concept/analysis. The first thing we must do is reduce (and ideally, eliminate) our own bias. Do not be for or against a particular outcome, do not be emotionally attached to upbringing/culture/tradition/rituals, only be attached to truth/justice/righteousness/etc. Look at every angle of a concept/topic, even absurd angles which do not make sense, after research if you are beginning to formulate a view imagine you are trying to refute your own view and attack it from every angle. If there are differing opinions on a topic, consider them, what are their strengths/weaknesses (you will rarely find an author mentioning the weak points of their view! YOU have to find them). If totally confused about a topic, simply list the possibilities on paper and then think about and work through them. Approach things in a systematic manner, as this stacks the odds in your favour in determining the truth and reduces the chances you miss something. You do not need to know everything, if unsure, take your time, stick with what is solid and follow that until you are ready to build upon your knowledge. With time you will find your inner compass become more "tuned in" and you will understand topics/concepts without as much effort.
I am lucky as I had a massive head start in this area as I was brought up in an environment where there zero other Muslims, thus I would often be asked questions about my beliefs, have them discussed etc so I learned from an early age to think/analyse more than average.
-
Peace to everyone,
Air
7441-51 outlines the outcome of the disbelievers and their helpnessness after death. God makes clear that all that they had in this world will be of no benefit to them. They will come to God Bare and Alone - 1980. The Angels will only say what is right not what we want them to say to help us out - 7838. The idolaters will turn to their idols for help they will be rejected by their idols and all praise will return to God - 1686-88. My final understanding is that if you die a disbeliever you are doomed.
My understanding of those infront of God and those to the right of God is that they are of the same class believers, but they have different rewards and ranks. We know that only what is RIGHT will be said on that day. We also know that messengers, prophets and leaders of communities will be brought forth as witnesses to people - 441 so if we link A with B and the quotes you used we understand C the witnesses and angels will only say what is right and just about the people and in the utmost they will be in tune with God's judgement i.e. they will not contradict or challenge God's overall plan because - God is the ONLY Judge. The third group you mention - the left - are damned, nothing can help them, nothing can interceed for them - 2697-103 because God's promise is that 3213. God will make it plain to them what they did and they alone will witness their own wrong doing, they will not deny it! nor will they even ask for intercessors! 6130. The believers will benefit from what they have done, the good deeds shall be raised, the bad deeds turned into good deeds and the Angels will greet them will "Peace" and scorn the disbelievers...whilst beating their faces and backs - 1323-24, 850
Peace.
-
I have not researched the topic of groups at all.
I have not researched the intercession topic in the detail I would like, like 99% of Quran topics, but my understanding is as follows
Intercession makes no difference to the outcome. A central core of The Quran is the 'law of requital', i.e. get what you give, i.e. the outcome is determined by the individual's beliefs/actions.
It is natural and even expected for people (particularly the righteous?) to make supplication on behalf of others. God will/may allow this, but that does not mean allowing such supplication to take place will change the outcome.
If such supplication is "accepted", that does not necessarily mean the decision of God was based on the supplication, it would mean that the decision of God coincided with the supplication, thus the "supplication" has a status of accepted.
If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please bring it forth.
You know what I was thinking, perhaps allowing this ceremonial intercession (in the situation when it will work) is God's way of saying to the person who is having intercession done on his behalf "See? I was going to admit you into heaven anyway, but this guy who is interceding on your behalf believes so strongly that you were a righteous person that he wanted to state the obvious and witness/testify to your righteousness even though he knows that I will make the final decision and am going to let you into heaven anyway"
thoughts?
-
You know what I was thinking, perhaps allowing this ceremonial intercession (in the situation when it will work) is God's way of saying to the person who is having intercession done on his behalf "See? I was going to admit you into heaven anyway, but this guy who is interceding on your behalf believes so strongly that you were a righteous person that he wanted to state the obvious and witness/testify to your righteousness even though he knows that I will make the final decision and am going to let you into heaven anyway"
thoughts?
To put it in the most concise manner concievable to humanity
11
Bismillhi r-ramni r-ram
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.12
Al amdu lillhi rabbi l-'lamn
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds13
Ar ramni r-ram
The Beneficent, the Merciful.14
Mliki yawmi d-dn
Owner of the Day of Judgement15
Iyyka na'budu wa iyyka nasta'n
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.16
Ihdin -ir al-mustaqm
Show us the straight path, < X = 1 >17
ir al-lana an'amta 'alayhim ayril mabi 'alayhim wal lln
YUSUFALI The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
SHAKIR The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.Do you get it now? If not...
< X = 1 >
{AND} < X = 1 > <=> < X = (-1) >
{OR NOT} < X = -1 >
{AND NOT} < X = -1 >Note that the "-" does not mean "negative" but rather, "NOT". As in, ALLAH is ONE, those with ALLAH act in unity and they are UNITED in ALLAH, they are ONE, in mathematical terms this reduces to a simple equation - ; Those acting against ALLAH the ONE are deprived of ALLAH'S RAHMAT which results inevitably in ONENESS/UNITY which means they are NOT ONE, they are divided. Done, and dusted.
Indeed, look at those of past generations who ALLAH deprived of his mercy/UNITY and what happened to them? Done (voodoo, and dusted (http//si-lad.com/yabbfiles/Smilies/tumbleweed.gif).
In arabic, there are 3 groups very specifically defined here. In REALITY, there are 4 groups but also in REALITY, 2 of them are one and the same, and thus the result is 3 groups. Keep in mind that REALITY is a different LANGUAGE to "arabic".
Arabic is ONE of MANY languages of ALLAH; REALITY is THE language of Allah.
And Allah does not want to lie, but some of his words cannot help themselves except to make a lie.
Get it now?
If not, I shall explain. This is divinely simple yet humanity seems to be so easily confused. One wonders where all this ridiculous conjecture came from.
Keep in mind ONE thing and ONE thing alone - Allah is ONE. He is NOT an idiot and he is surely TRUTHFUL.
Another statement of fundamental truth that most will not understand; the first verse in this thread leads DIRECTLY and ONLY to the second verse which leads DIRECTLY and ONLY to the third verse and so on till the seventh verse. If your understanding does not LOGICALLY prove this in your own head then EITHER you are a disbeliever OR mine/your understanding is perhaps not refined enough to make an accurate judgement.
It reduces down to the same truthful concept as what you, Wakas, Layth and Soof say.
On that day, EVERYTHING will be an intercessor for EVERYTHING else. This is indeed how the balance of deeds will be computed and it is the ONLY way that it can be computed in JUSTICE.
No stone will be left unturned, so to speak and the stone itself is going to be the one unturning itself, so to speak. To see something in 4D you must look at it from every direction concievable and build up a full picture.
The court has 3 sides - Judge, Prosecution, Defendant. Now let's call the judge "Allah", what is the verdict on the defendant who is guilty by definition of the judge who is ALLAH THE ALL KNOWING? Yet, in a fair court, must the prosecution not cross examine the defense and vice versa? Yet still, when is the judge ever subject to cross examination himself except when he is suspicious and yet still, when the judge is Allah, the all-seeing, how can it concievably be just to cross examine Him?!! The answer is in 2123; Allah is judge, jury and executioner but he sure as hell aint the defendant and damn does it suck to be the defendant!
Who carries more weight in testimony - an outright liar, a person who has told lies but tells truth more often, or an outright troothsayer (P)?
1st group = objectivity in witness (PURE TRUTH), by definition of Allah
2nd group = wisely chose objectivity out of free will (TRUTH cancels out falsehood), by definition of Allah
3rd group = chose subjectivity and hence doom (falsehood cancels out TRUTH), by definition of AllahIs the quran easy to understand, yes or no?
In fact, let me rephrase for the idiots, who still will not get it and they never will and it is not allowed for them to get.
Is the quran easy to understand, heavenly yes or heavenly yes/hellish no?
For the choosers of heaven, Allah makes you an offer you cannot refuse
Is the quran easy to understand, yes or yes?
For the choosers of hell, you tried to refuse an offer that cannot be refused. Sorry, try again next time. Oh wait, there isn't a "next time" because this is the "last day". And for a reason not explained here, all "praise" is indeed due to the Lord of the Worlds.
-
I think,
In any deed one is the action doer.. either doing Good/Right or Bad/Evil.
and the other one is the learned men, the guided ones, the blessed ones, the peacemakers who has that experience to say if any action is bad or good.for ex... the bad ones are exploiting nature earth without caring for others, the good ones are doing the opposite preserving the nature for social cause... and the guided ones are the ones who say which is wrong and which is right.
)
-
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600832.msg252150#msg252150
