Who are the people of the book?
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Peace Arnab,
This is not prior scripture...
John 19 >>
17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha; 18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, on this side, and on that side, and Jesus in the midst.Yes, John in Aramaic is previous scripture in harmony with the Quran.
This is the account of what they THINK they saw. Compare the WHOLE of 4157 where we are told that IT APPEARED TO THEM AS IF THEY KILLED HIM
4157 And their saying "We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!" And they had not murdered him, nor killed him by crucifixion, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace.
Your statements are completely off. I never said anything about Mohammed being illiterate, I said he was called "ummi" in al-Qur'an, which is best translated as "gentile", but it literally means "unlearned in Scripture". That means that Mohammed was not familiar with the Torah of Moses either - if he was, then he couldn't be "unlearned in Scripture"... We weren't instructed to follow the Torah either, not like the Jews.
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law when He has revealed THIS BOOK fully detailed?" (al-Qur'an 6114)
And IN this FULLY DETAILED BOOK it says to UPHOLD PREVIOUS SCRIPTURE
"And THIS is a Scripture that We have sent down blessed, so follow it and be aware so that you should receive mercy, lest you should say, 'The Scripture was only sent to two groups before us, and we were unaware of their study.'" (al-Qur'an 6155-156)
Yes, do you see how the scripture sent down to two groups before us is STATED? And following THIS scripture includes following the previous scripture.....As stated in THIS scripture (the Quran).
This is the proof in al-Qur'an that Mohammed's people were unlearned in Scripture, not knowledgeable of the details in the Torah and Injeel.
I agreed with you that SOME of Muhammad's people were unlearned in scripture....not ALL.
You use the verse about al-Qur'an confirming the previous Scripture far too loosely, especially without citing the whole of it. It does more than confirm it
"Then We revealed to you this scripture truthfully, CONFIRMING previous scriptures and SUPERCEDING them..." (al-Qur'an 54
According to the verse, al-Qur'an-majeed not only confirms the previous Scriptures, but it also SUPERCEDES them - that is why we don't have the same laws and rites that the Jews and Nazarites have. Al-Qur'an definately confirms the previous Scriptures by restating them, but it also supercedes them by giving us a new revelation.
This is a MISTRANSLATION. It does not say that in Arabic.
It also says in this same verse"Had God willed, He would have made you one nation, but He tests you with WHAT HE HAS GIVEN YOU..." (al-Qur'an 54
We are only accountable for the Scripture we receive, which is al-Qur'an-majeed.Yes, and you are supposed to believe in what is revealed to you and what is revealed before you in THIS REVELATION (the Quran). Therefore he has given YOU previous scriptures as well but you are denying them.
Salam,
Arnab -
And IN this FULLY DETAILED BOOK it says to UPHOLD PREVIOUS SCRIPTURE
Yes, do you see how the scripture sent down to two groups before us is STATED? And following THIS scripture includes following the previous scripture.....As stated in THIS scripture (the Quran).Yes, and you are supposed to believe in what is revealed to you and what is revealed before you in THIS REVELATION (the Quran). Therefore he has given YOU previous scriptures as well but you are denying them.
Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab,
I tried to understand the passages I posted so that I could be guided on same bases as in the Quran 22. ... the Book, wherein is
(a) no doubt,(b) a guidance to the godfearing
So let apply these tests
The Genesis Chapter 19, verses 30-38
My understanding(Poor) Lot was made to impregnate his two daughter because the daughter tricked him to get drunk and they were the one who had this plan to save his race otherwise Lot was not part of the plan except ...but he was the Prophet despite this
Whatever Lot and his daughter did was not a commandment but in the end it paid off as it produced sons out of it.
Now I wonder what else these women do to further multiply their race as instead of a girl and a boy two sons are born and they are back to the square one unless they now sleep with their sons..Do I doubt this story? Yes
Must follow as guidance from god? No
2 Samuel Chapter 11
My understandingThe woman took bath in the open view of poor David, who fell for her charms and both had sex and could go on doing that but in the absence of the (bloody pill,) Bath-sheba got pregnant so David had to plan something as Uriah was unlikely to pronounce ?gett ? easily to his beautiful wife therefore he came up with the best solution was kill Uriah. Job done
Once Uriah out of way David marries Bat-sheba and the child is born and god is unhappy with their act but not unhappy enough to punish them instead kill the product of their unlawful act and replace them with a noble Solomon. However the evil was to return back openly under the sun once contraceptive pills are available.(a) Do I doubt that these stories are from same God? Yes
(b) Do I find guidance for the godfearings.... No
Reading this I will end up discriminating among prophets as not all were up the same standard and if I say that I was to respect them equally than sorry no I can?t according to this accountThere is clear contradiction here with what we learn in the Qur?an.
In Surah 18 verse 80-81 it was pious parents who had wicked child so the child was killed and replaced by good one in but here it was wronged parents and innocent child who had to be killed as a salvation for his parents.What is moral or guidance None except that The culprit behind both stories are the women who made innocent men do unlawful acts so women are the bad ones.
And yes we must not forget Story of Abraham who lied and called his wife his sister and offer her to save their life. Abraham who according to the Qur?an was patient and brave and who believed that his life and his death is in Almighty?s hand but only to certain extend after that you can lie to save your life.
Moral of the story all those who lied to get green card for their wives by calling them their sister were only following Abraham?s legacy.None of such stories are mentioned in the Qur?an -[ May be God was too embarrassed to further explain these stories and instead chose stories of rich man and poor man with goats 99 to 1 but nevertheless it happened, (according to you)
Result I doubt in the authenticity of these stories, and find
(a) doubt, Yes
(b) a guidance to the godfearing .....NoPart of being a ?believer? is believing in that which is revealed and that which was revealed BEFORE (Not added version)
...Say "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah and the Injeel, and what was descended to you from your Lord ." (not the one which is not descended from my Lord)peace
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Yes, John in Aramaic is previous scripture in harmony with the Quran.
This is the account of what they THINK they saw. Compare the WHOLE of 4157 where we are told that IT APPEARED TO THEM AS IF THEY KILLED HIM
4157 And their saying "We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!" And they had not murdered him, nor killed him by crucifixion, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.
Quran is in harmony with John because Quran says that John is conjecture?
They are not from the same source else that would be a paradox similar to the Cretan who said ?all Cretan?s lie? and thus cannot be trusted.
By your logic, is Quran also in harmony with atheism, egotism, paganism, or whatever isms because Quran says they are disbelievers and worship/follow a lie?
Peace
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By your logic, is Quran also in harmony with atheism, egotism, paganism, or whatever isms because Quran says they are disbelievers and worship/follow a lie?
Don't be ridiculous.
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Peace all,
I have noted the following
2 Samuel Chapter 11
My understandingThe woman took bath in the open view of poor David, who fell for her charms and both had sex and could go on doing that but in the absence of the (bloody pill,) Bath-sheba got pregnant so David had to plan something as Uriah was unlikely to pronounce ?gett ? easily to his beautiful wife therefore he came up with the best solution was kill Uriah. Job done
Once Uriah out of way David marries Bat-sheba and the child is born and god is unhappy with their act but not unhappy enough to punish them instead kill the product of their unlawful act and replace them with a noble Solomon. However the evil was to return back openly under the sun once contraceptive pills are available.This can not be in Torah, because David came after the Torah was revealed; moreover God would never accept David if he did something like that; and if he did, God would have never mentioned it.
Peace Arnab,
This is not prior scripture...
John 19 >>
17 and bearing his cross, he went forth to the place called Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew Golgotha; 18 where they crucified him, and with him two others, on this side, and on that side, and Jesus in the midst.This is not the Bible of Jesus that we were asked to believe in because
At that time, when John 19 were written, Jesus was not on
Earth; thus, this is the writting of a person who saw the CrucifictionArnab, please note that we were asked to believe in what was revealed to Jesus (the Writtings of Jesus = the Bible)
I hope all of us can reach the truth without attacking each other.
May God increase your Knowledge and Wisdom
peace -
Peace all,
I have noted the following
This can not be in Torah, because David came after the Torah was revealed; moreover God would never accept David if he did something like that; and if he did, God would have never mentioned it.That's correct. This is in the section of the bible referred to as the Writings ....a part of the Tanakh. It was not part of commandments it is a history.
This is not the Bible of Jesus that we were asked to believe in because
At that time, when John 19 were written, Jesus was not on
Earth; thus, this is the writting of a person who saw the CrucifictionArnab, please note that we were asked to believe in what was revealed to Jesus (the Writtings of Jesus = the Bible)
You are correct. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough about this in my post. This is what they THOUGHT they saw. It is a detail of what they THOUGHT occured. This is not commandments etc.
Salam,
Arnab -
That's correct. This is in the section of the bible referred to as the Writings ....a part of the Tanakh. It was not part of commandments it is a history.
You are correct. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough about this in my post. This is what they THOUGHT they saw. It is a detail of what they THOUGHT occured. This is not commandments etc.
Salam,
ArnabThat is Arnab who I know, a Humbled Believer. sun
Arnab, your honest debate and others will always lead us to the Truth; why? Because God will lead the people who are seeking the truth to the right path, if they are willing to accept that they can be wrong sometimes.
May God Bless you, and everybody.peace
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Please note that we were asked to believe in what was revealed to Jesus (the Writtings of Jesus = the Bible)
Peace.
This is incorrect, brother. Esa (Jesus) never wrote ANY PORTION of the Bible, not one book. Al-Qur'an emphasizes that "books" were SENT DOWN to all of the prophets (i.e. Ibraheem, Mousa, Dawud, Esa, Mohammed, etc.), and this is what we are commanded to believe in, the true Scripture from God. However, the "New Testament" of the Bible was not "sent down" to any of them, and none of those writers were called "prophets" in al-Qur'an, NOT ONE... If Esa was a human-prophet, which al-Qur'an upholds, how could he give the details of his death? By the time those Biblical books were written, Esa had been dead for years! These books do not make up the Injeel that al-Qur'an was referring to, they are opinionated sketches of Esa's life and ministry, written by his direct followers ("apostles" and others not so - Luke was never even an apostle of Esa, he was said to be a physician. Most of the remainder of the "New Testament" was written by Paul ("Saul", a man who never even met Esa...
This is in the section of the bible referred to as the Writings ....a part of the Tanakh. It was not part of commandments it is a history.
Where are we instructed by God to follow the complete "Tanakh"? This wasn't part of the Light that God sent down to His messengers. We are commanded to uphold the Torah that God sent down to Mousa, so where do we get this "statute book"? We are reminded of it in al-Qur'an... Most of the Tanakh was written by men - there's really no disputing that. Esa, according to the Bible, said he believed in "the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Nevi'im)" - this does not include the "Writings" (Ketuvim) that is contained in both the the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Esa spoke about the Jews using man-made innovations, beliefs that, according to many scholars (not saying they're correct) are based on the Ketuvim. The only Scripture from the Ketuvim that al-Qur'an confirms is the "Psalms" - none of the others are supported in God's message to Mohammed...
Peace,
Ahmad
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That's correct. This is in the section of the bible referred to as the Writings ....a part of the Tanakh. It was not part of commandments it is a history.
Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab,
Thank you so much for explaining this, I can see the passages differently now and would come back with my renewed understanding insha?allah.
I have this feeling that something has been missing/cause to be forgotten in this writing of history.
Also I must apologise for being blunt in my last post, I hope I did not cause any offence as that was not my intention.Best of regards
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That is Arnab who I know, a Humbled Believer. sun
Arnab, your honest debate and others will always lead us to the Truth; why? Because God will lead the people who are seeking the truth to the right path, if they are willing to accept that they can be wrong sometimes.
May God Bless you, and everybody.peace
Salaam belalhammadts
Its only recently that I had known Arnab and I am impressed with her humility God bless her
handshake
May God Bless you, and everybody -
Salaam Arnab,
Thank you so much for explaining this, I can see the passages differently now and would come back with my renewed understanding insha?allah.
I have this feeling that something has been missing/cause to be forgotten in this writing of history.
Also I must apologise for being blunt in my last post, I hope I did not cause any offence as that was not my intention.Best of regards
Salam farida,
Thank you for your kind comments.
I don't take offense to others voicing their opinions and you have no need to apologize.
It is likely that we will agree on some points and disagree on others it's all part of exploring the scriptures.
And it is also likely that we will be passionate about our disagreements.
LOL Its just part of the journey.
group
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace.
This is incorrect, brother. Esa (Jesus) never wrote ANY PORTION of the Bible, not one book.
Peace,
We are ordered to believe in what was revealed to Jesus, as we were ordered to believe in what was revealed to Mohamed and Moses. Thus, any writting that were written after there death are not part of the Book; and that is what I meant.
Peace -
Peace.
This is incorrect, brother. Esa (Jesus) never wrote ANY PORTION of the Bible, not one book. Al-Qur'an emphasizes that "books" were SENT DOWN to all of the prophets (i.e. Ibraheem, Mousa, Dawud, Esa, Mohammed, etc.), and this is what we are commanded to believe in, the true Scripture from God. However, the "New Testament" of the Bible was not "sent down" to any of them, and none of those writers were called "prophets" in al-Qur'an, NOT ONE... If Esa was a human-prophet, which al-Qur'an upholds, how could he give the details of his death? By the time those Biblical books were written, Esa had been dead for years! These books do not make up the Injeel that al-Qur'an was referring to, they are opinionated sketches of Esa's life and ministry, written by his direct followers ("apostles" and others not so - Luke was never even an apostle of Esa, he was said to be a physician. Most of the remainder of the "New Testament" was written by Paul ("Saul", a man who never even met Esa...
I disagree Jesus was given the word of God and the word of God is protected so The words of Jesus are protected in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace,
We are ordered to believe in what was revealed to Jesus, as we were ordered to believe in what was revealed to Mohamed and Moses. Thus, any writting that were written after there death are not part of the Book; and that is what I meant.
PeacePeace.
I agree with this. In al-Qur'an, it tells us to believe in the Scripture that was sent down to all the prophets - this includes Esa, since he was definately one of the prophets. According to the Scripture, the Injeel was sent down to Esa while he was alive, and this is what we are to believe in. Prophets other than Mousa and Mohammed are recorded as receiving a Scripture as well - Ibraheem, Noah, Dawud, Isaac, Ismail, and others are also spoken of in al-Qur'an as receiving a divine message from God, and we're told you believe in all these divine books, some of which are lost. So, what book do you think was al-Qur'an referring to that was sent down to Esa? You are definately correct about writings after his death - there's no way these can be included in the message that was sent down to him. That's why I don't completely accept the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as being authentic or divine Scripture from God...
Jesus was given the word of God and the word of God is protected so The words of Jesus are protected in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
This may be true to an extent, possibly... So, you believe Esa never received his own divine message to bring to the people? There are many other books written by some of Esa's followers that were never included in the Bible cannon we have today, and they provide personal sketches of Esa's life and ministry. What do you think of these books?
Peace,
Ahmad
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I disagree Jesus was given the word of God and the word of God is protected so The words of Jesus are protected in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
So, you believe Esa never received his own divine message to bring to the people?
I never said that.
I DO believe that Isa received his own divine message to bring to the people.
There are many other books written by some of Esa's followers that were never included in the Bible cannon we have today, and they provide personal sketches of Esa's life and ministry. What do you think of these books?
I think that some of them could be scripture. At this point I have not fully evaluated them to come to a conclusion. But, in The Gospel of Thomas is the story of Isa breathing into the clay birds. Just as we have in the Quran. So I would say that there is a very high possibility that some of the apocrypha is scripture.
Salam,
Arnab -
It is likely that we will agree on some points and disagree on others it's all part of exploring the scriptures.
group
Salam,
ArnabSalaam Arnab,
Of courseAnd it is also likely that we will be passionate about our disagreements.
Of course and, as I said above, I would Insha?allah come back with my renewed understanding that would mean an informative discussion on my view and views of other learned contributors and as a result we are bound to learn more according to our individual grasp of the truth.
I am still trying to reach my understanding of the passages I posted before and it may take longer as I have to think carefully after all we have linguists like yourself and Samia. For now I?ll say this much, although I don?t agree with the newcomer, Anders, on many issues I agreed with his passage ref
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7268/1240/Monotheists, in their zeal to profess their monotheism, have a very strong tendency to acknowledge only 2 intelligent parties, man and god. This causes them to think that anything that is too complicated for man to create MUST therefore originate from god.
This is nonsensical, for it over looks the 3rd party known by various names which I shall here refer to as Satan.
Satan is known to be far beyond the intelligence of man, and no one who considers the ongoing suffering on this planet can rationally deny that.
Rationally therefore, we can not conclude without further evidence that something found to be beyond the creative abilities of man must therefore originate from god.It could very well originate from Satan!...............andersI do believe all scripts, directly from God, are protected and Satan has been barred from inserting his input into them, but any Hadith or so called history(story/report/narration/statement/tale/) is told by historians and to think that Satan had no part in that would be a very easy ride for Adam.
LOL Its just part of the journey.
So as part of the journey we have a very difficult job to comb out, with a fine tooth comb, what appears to be wispers from Satan.
Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognise it as they recognise their sons. Those who ruin their own souls will not believe.
peace
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Peace.
I agree with this. In al-Qur'an, it tells us to believe in the Scripture that was sent down to all the prophets - this includes Esa, since he was definately one of the prophets. According to the Scripture, the Injeel was sent down to Esa while he was alive, and this is what we are to believe in.
Peace all,
I agree; and as Arnab said and others, such teachings exist in many writtings. thus we have to accept only what the Quran confirms. But, we also have to understand that the Quran came to change some of the laws that were given in the Bible and the Torah (God made it more easier); Thus, some of the Bible and Torah Laws can be different from what in Quran, therefore, we can not say that such Laws are man made but we should thank God for changing it for us to a more easier ones.
PeacePeace