Who are the people of the book?
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What is the 'Good News' that Jesus / Essa,as was entrusted with, confirmed and delivered?
Entrusted.....
Say. Whoever is an enemy to GABRIEL-FOR HE BRINGS DOWN THE (REVELATION) TO THY HEART BY ALLAH'S WILL, a confirmation that is between your two hands, and guidance and glad tidings / good news for those who believe,-
Messengers who give good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the Messengers, should have no plea against Allah. For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
But Allah beareth witness that what Allah has sent you ALLAH HAS SENT FROM HIS KNOWLEDGE, and the angels bear witness. But enough is Allah for a witness.
Confirmation......
?And a messenger to the children of ISRAEL, that is ?I have come to you, with an AYAT(Sign) from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird . and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by ALLAH`s leave. and I heal the blind , and the leapers, and I give lilfe to the dead, by ALLAHS leave. And I inform you in what you consume, and what you store in your houses. Surely it is an ayat(sign) for you if you did believe;
Delivered......
And when ESSA, the son of Maryam said; ?O children of ISRAEL! Surely I am a messenger of Allah to you, confirming the TAURAH in my hands / influence or control and giving the good news of a messenger to come after me, Whose name shall be AHMED but when he came to them with clear signs, they said, ?This is clear MAGIC!?
The 'Good News' Essa,as delivered was the recognition of 'Ahmed', the 'praiseworthy one' (John 146 Comforter)
Salam MTR,
The above post makes it appear that you are actually confirming that the Injeel is in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John), since you are referencing it and using verses to support it.
And for future reference the verses on the comforter/redeemer are in John 1416-27 (not John 146).
Salam,
Arnab -
Assalaam Alaikum
Arnab, You seem to be somewhat delusional. 'Selective Memory' and 'Intellectual Unfairness' are NOT virtuous character traits. We have already shown that the Torah and Bible you keep 'peddling' around as 'guidance' has NOTHING to do with the Al Kitab, Injeel, Al Toori, Al Tawrat or the Quran.
Personally, YOU, Arnab are just a 'means to an end', please keep that in mind.
Lets review......
Point One
It is He Who sent down to you, in truth, the Book / Al Kitab, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law / Al Tawrat and the Injeel / Al Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
Al Tawrat AND Al Injeel was revealed BEFORE Muusa,as AND Essa,as; to ALL Humankind (Muusa,as and Essa,as are NOT mentioned in the previous ayahs)
Point Two
Injil;root words is NAJA?A means relaxation, wholesome, useful, beneficial & NAJA means to save, be saved, be rescued, safety, get away, be delivered, confide, confidant, entrust, take one into confidence & NAJAL means to beget, father, sire, son(sun), progeny; ALL meanings of Injil, successively.
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. page 1107 (najuba) ? page 1109 (naja?a) ? page 1110 (naja)Now the 'Bible'......
Biblos is given a false generic meaning ?Burnt Bricks? and in Hebrew Bible ?Babel? means ?confusion?. However it is not a Greek word but adopted by them from the Caannanite/Phoenicians who gave them their alphabet it means ?burnt bricks? from Babylon or BIBLE-On.
Point Three
Let the People of the Injeel / Ahlu al-Injeeli judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
Who are the 'People of Injeel'?
Answer...
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him. We sent him the Injeel. In Al Injeel is guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that is between his two hands. a guidance and an admonition to those who have regard for Allah / mawAAithatan lil muttaqeena .
The Muttaqeen are NOT the Jews and Christians and NEVER have been the Muttaqeen
Point Four
Where is the example of behavior and character of Ahlu Al-Injeel / People of Al-Injeel?
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
The People of Al-Injeel / Ahlu Al-Injeel are defined in the Quran NOT the Torah and Bible
Point Five
What! have We given them a Book before this, to which they are holding fast?
No! they say. "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."
To Be Continued......
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Point Six
The word "Torah" in Hebrew "is derived from the root which in the hifil conjugation means "to teach" (cf. Lev. 1011). The meaning of the word is therefore "teaching," "doctrine," or "instruction"; the commonly accepted "law" gives a wrong impression."
Rabinowitz, Louis Isaac and Harvey, Warren. "Torah." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed
The term "Torah" is therefore also used in the general sense to include both Judaism's written law and oral law, serving to encompass the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash and more, and the inaccurate rendering of "Torah" as "Law" may be an obstacle to "understanding the ideal that is summed up in the term talmud torah ( , "study of Torah,", characterized in Jewish tradition as excelling all things."
pp.164-165, Scherman, Exodus 1249
Point Seven
What does Judaism's authoritative Jewish religious teachings state about the 'Torah'?
Moed Erubin 21b
"?.And furthermore, my son, be admonished of making many books. My son be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah, for in the laws of the Torah there are positive and negative precepts, but, as to the laws of the Scribes whoever transgresses any of the enactments of the Scribes incurs the penalty of death."KOHELETH 1211-14
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails well fastened are those that are composed in collections; they are given from one shepherd.
And furthermore, My son, be admonished of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
The end of the matter, all having been heard fear G-d, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man.
For G-d shall bring every work into the judgment concerning every hidden thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil."Isaiah 2913-15
And the L-rd said Forasmuch as this people draw near, and with their mouth and with their lips do honor Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear of Me is a commandment of men learned by rote (in writing);
Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the prudence of their prudent men shall be hid.
Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the L-RD, and their works are in the dark, and they say 'Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?'The 'Torah' has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Quran!
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Peace MTR
Check the verse below... I quoted it in my previous posts also but you seem to have gone pass it... How will you interpret this verse?
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya alommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waalinjeeli yamuruhum bialmaAAroofi wayanhahum AAani almunkari wayuhillu lahumu alttayyibati wayuharrimu AAalayhimu alkhabaitha wayadaAAu AAanhum israhum waalaghlala allatee kanat AAalayhim faallatheena amanoo bihi waAAazzaroohu wanasaroohu waittabaAAoo alnnoora allathee onzila maAAahu olaika humu almuflihoona
7157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
What does MAKTOOB means here? From the dictionaries, we will always find it to mean WRITTEN ...
In this verse we have previous scriptures mentioned as well as a confirmation that they were written down... Was it written somewhere on a wall or something? Can a scripture be written on walls?
Hey bro... I do respect your opinion so do not take these words badly... Its just there for a little tawkeed
Peace
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Assalaam Aalaikum @Arnab
You neglected to address the distinction between Al-Toori and Al-Tawrat.....
Please review......
Its NOT 'Torah' that Muusa,as was given by Allah,swt it was 'Al Toori'......
There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); Yet you worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and you did behave wrongfully.
And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you of Mount / fawqakumu al-toora (Saying). "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and adhere / listen to the guidance / ismaAAoo ". They said." We hear, and we disobey." And they had to drink into their hearts (of the taint) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say. "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if you have any faith!"
Fawqa superior in rank, excellence, overcome surpass
toori manner, way of action, kind, class, limit, time(repeated action), stage, state
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 345 (tara)And remember MOOSA/MOSES in AL-KITAB/THE BOOK, surely he was devout/sincere and a Messenger, Prophet.
Allah,swt continues in the next ayah.....
Wa nadaynahu min janibi al-toori al-aymani waqarrabnahu najiyyan
Janiba means one who is in a temporary state from submission and recognition of guidance; one who is being led or called to guidance or recognition
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 102-103 (janaba)toori manner, way of action, kind, class, limit, time(repeated action), stage, state
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 345 (tara)aymani; means trust, security, faithful, steadfast;Root word Amina meaning to trust, be secure, be in safety, confide in Related Forms Aimanun Right Hands, Oath; Aimana meaning Right, Blessed; Maimanah meaning People of the Right Hand, that are blessed; Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 35 (amuna); Dictionary of the Holy Quran Page 33 (Amina)
@Arnab Which one is it? 'Al-Tawrat' or 'Al-Toori'?
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Peace MTR
Check the verse below... I quoted it in my previous posts also but you seem to have gone pass it... How will you interpret this verse?
What does MAKTOOB means here? From the dictionaries, we will always find it to mean WRITTEN ...
In this verse we have previous scriptures mentioned as well as a confirmation that they were written down... Was it written somewhere on a wall or something? Can a scripture be written on walls? D
Hey bro... I do respect your opinion so do not take these words badly... Its just there for a little tawkeed
Peace
Assalaam Aalaikum @Wayfinder
Please get the basics down first, before arguing a position you dont understand. One, there is nom reference to 'previous scriptures' in Sura 7.157.
Secondly, Lets bring you up to speed, real quick....
@Wayfinder....What does this mean? 'Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya alommiyya '
Please dont use numerous translations, they are all wrong....
Take your time....
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Salam,
MTR Your misunderstandings are based on the following
confused rendering of verses using a questionable understanding of Arabic,
largely unintelligible self-constructed grammatical rules,
and an unwillingness to read what others have posted to you regarding your misconceptions.All of your "points" have been addressed and proven inaccurate or false.
I see no need to keep re-addressing them each time you decide that you need to repeat yourself in this obsessive manner.
Salam,
Arnab -
Assalaam Aalaikum @Wayfinder
Please get the basics down first, before arguing a position you dont understand. One, there is nom reference to 'previous scriptures' in Sura 7.157.
Secondly, Lets bring you up to speed, real quick....
@Wayfinder....What does this mean? 'Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya alommiyya '
Please dont use numerous translations, they are all wrong....
Take your time....
Peace MTR
Before I answer your question... please answer this... Tell me what this phrase means since you tell me their is NO REFERENCE to previous scriptures in that verse...
7157 ".......... allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waalinjeeli ............."
I would like to know how you would translate this verse... Please take your time too....
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So your 'proof' was changing EVERY reference in the English translation from 'Taurat' to 'Torah', in every ayah you can find? Then suggesting that the ayah is referring to 'Torah?
Thats your 'proof'?
- YOU dont know or read Arabic of Quran
- YOU have NOT studied the grammatical references as it relates to the Quran
- YOU cannot PROVE a lie Where are the 'misconceptions'?
Arnab, Parroting the perceptions of others, does NOT validate or confirm that you actually know and understand the subject matter.
What I have proven is that the Torah has no relevance to the Quran.
The reason why you did NOT address this question
"Arnab Which one is it? 'Al-Tawrat' or 'Al-Toori'?"
Is because you NEVER studied the Quran in depth enough to KNOW that Muusa,as was given Al-Toori.
Again, there is NOT one ayah that states 'I gave Muusa,as Al-Tawrat'
Now do a bit more research as it relates to Al-Toori and Al-Tawrat, then lets talk.
Please do NOT change the references to Al-Toori to Torah
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Peace MTR
Before I answer your question... please answer this... Tell me what this phrase means since you tell me their is NO REFERENCE to previous scriptures in that verse...
7157 ".......... allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waalinjeeli ............."
I would like to know how you would translate this verse... Please take your time too....
Excuse me, YOU made the assertion, prove it. Why ask me?
Where is the mention of 'previous scriptures'? in the Arabic
By the way, Maktuub is an ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, derived verb, denoting constant/present tense, repetition/repeating and manifestation of the attribute.
I dont argue translations
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Excuse me, YOU made the assertion, prove it. Why ask me?
Where is the mention of 'previous scriptures'? in the Arabic
By the way, Maktuub is an ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, derived verb, denoting constant/present tense, repetition/repeating and manifestation of the attribute.
I dont argue translations
allathee = those who
yajidoona = they found
hu = it
maktooban = written, from root kataba(to write), here the verb is in HAAL form, which denotes a state
AAindahum = they have
fee = in
alttawrati = the tawrat
waalinjeeli = the injeelAnything wrong here? hmm
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Anything wrong here? hmm
yajidoonahu / They find ; Imperfect verb indicates present or future tense meaning ?Is?, occurring NOW and in the Future
maktuuban is again active participle, means 'writing' 'written' is incorrect.
AAindina is a preposition which means AT, NEAR, by, WITH, on, AT THAT MOMENT, AT THIS INSTANT, WITH THESE WORDS, IMMEDIATELY ; Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary page 759-760 (inda)
Hum, 3rd person, plural pronoun meaning 'them'
@Wayfinder, the words all denote present tense NOT past tense meaning, sorry no previous scriptures
As I mentioned to the 'Torah Peddler' the Quran, Tawrat and Injeel have nothing to do with Torah and Bible, thats been made clear.
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maktuuban is again active participle, means 'writing' 'written' is incorrect.
Wrong. It's a passive participle and it means "written".
AAindina What's this? There's no such word in Hans Wehr. The entry "3inda " is on page 648, not 759. You're not quoting Hans Wehr
AT THAT MOMENT, AT THIS INSTANT
These are mentioned under "3inda-ithin " which is completely different from "3inda ".
WITH THESE WORDS, IMMEDIATELY
Where did you get this from?
Not that these are your only mistakes, but I really gave up on correcting your bizarre and wrong grammar since I first started to respond to your posts. Please stop referring to wrong grammar not only because it is wrong but also because it's irrelevant most of the time and serves nothing. Anyone who takes MTR's grammar seriously, does it on their own responsibility.
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Assalaam Alaikum @Samia
I could careless what you say to attempt to slander my perceptions. Besides I never asked you to 'correct' any perceived mistakes.
Maktuub / maktuuban is a passive participle, thats true. I was mistaken.
Now does that qualify you to slander me?
In our previous discussion you made some rather gross misinterpretations, I dont recall slandering you and attempting to garner an audience.
@Samia, by the way I dont just use Hans Wehr or one specific reference. I note Hans Wehr or Dictionary of the Holy Quran due to the easy accessibility of these references. So when I note those references, Im NOT 'quoting' them, Im encompassing other sources in the meaning also.
@Samia, As I illustrated in our previous discussion, your reference to the Free Minds Modern Standard Arabic 'translation' is NOT a valid or proper translation of the Quranan Arabbiyyan. May I suggest, before slandering me in regards to my perceptions relative to the language of the Quran, that you refer to a 'proper' Arabic Quran that maintains the correct tashkheel and Harakat.
@Samia Now would you care to address Sura 7.157?
maktuuban is PASSIVE participle, which requires an object, that is being 'written on or to'
What is this object?
Something is being 'written to' in present tense, now the preposition AAinda-hum makes that clear
@Samia What is the 'Object' that is being 'written to' in Sura 7.157?
I await your response to this question.
Inda, preposition meaning near, for, to, PRESENCE ; Language of the Holy Quran by Nadwi page 201
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 390 (Inda) Preposition meanings 'here, with , by, at the point of, about, from; The word denotes the idea of nearness, whether it be actual in the sense of possession or conceptual, it also denotes a sense of rank or dignity or opinion, time and place"
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Peace MTR
Initially you were not accepting that the verse were talking about previous scriptures... And not you are agreeing that MATOOBAN means 'written' ... And you are asking on what is it written? What is this question bro?? It says clearly in the verse that 'Which they find WRITTEN in the Injeel and the Torah in their possession..."
Also, the since the verb is in present tense, it denotes continuity... which means, they will always find it written in their scriptures... Also this verse is making reference to the Nabi and not to the Messenger... You are trying to imply that the guys find it written in the Quran itself... However, most of the places where the Quran is referred, Muhammad is reffered as Messenger in these verses and not Nabi... Correct me if am wrong...
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Assalaam Alaikum @Wayfinder
Nope, sorry, Al Tawrat and Al Injeel are NOT the 'object' of the passive participle Maktoob.
Besides, Al Tawrat and Al Injeel were 'revealed' NOT 'written'
Does NOT translate to "Which they find WRITTEN in the Injeel and the Torah in their possession..."
Thats NOT there at all in the arabic grammar
Again, the question
What is the object of the passive participle Maktuban, that is being written to or on?
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Well if my literal and word for word translation is wrong... then the simplest thing you can do is to give the right translation of this phrase... If you look at 7155 - 156 ... You will see that the verse are referring to Musa and his people... the people who we know as Ahl-ul-Kitab... However, I still cannot get your way of thinking...
If I want to say this in arabic..
the news is written in the news paper
I will say...
Al Akhbaarou matooban fil jareedati...
In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel'
The meaning of this phrase is PLAIN... Moubeen...Clear... Why are you trying to make us see what is not written there??
The Quran is a guide for humanity in complete.... Its not intended only for high thinkers... Do you think the farmer/labourer etc... I mean those who did not pursue big studies will know about these details and weird gramatical rules... They will have to understand the Quran plainly as Allah says in many times in the Quran, Al-Kitab Al moubeen...
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Salaam MTR
No one needs permission to correct an error. I am not slandering you. I am telling what you are doing. References are sited so that people verify them, and to your bad luck, I do, and I can easily deduce that either you did not consult Hans Wehr on that specific word as you claimed, or you corrupted the information on that dictionary. Same thing with your claimed reference about Tantawi, whom you claimed has made this and other silly grammar
Samia as you can see has a tanwiin fatha, which makes the word indefinite, plural and feminine.
Confirmation Reference Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi Reviewed by Mohammed Fahim Abou 'Oubayya (page 773 Surah Al Muzzamil ayah 5)On this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597218.0Please stop posting wrong grammar and false references, and consider this as a formal warning.
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If I may inform you, as a Muslim Mumin I dont believe in 'bad luck' or 'good luck' for that matter. As Allah states 'What good comes to you is from Allah, that which is bad, comes from your own soul'
In response to your statement....
"No one needs permission to correct an error. I am not slandering you. I am telling what you are doing. References are sited so that people verify them, and to your bad luck, I do, and I can easily deduce that either you did not consult Hans Wehr on that specific word as you claimed, or you corrupted the information on that dictionary. Same thing with your claimed reference about Tantawi, whom you claimed has made this and other silly grammar"
It's 'cited' not sited. 'sighted', yes
Hans Wehr is on the 5th or 6th edition, I use the 4th edition. Thus the page references will be different from previous or current editions.(you corrupted the information on that dictionary?) Secondly, as I stated in a previous post, when I reference a word I use various sources, Hans Wehr is just one, 'what Im doing' is referring the audience to a credible source and easily accessible source.
Tantawi? I was referring to Tanween / Tanwiin, the harakah, which makes a word indefinite, plural and feminine, as part of the Idafa Construct a word with tanween can be DEFINITE. (silly grammar?)
The reference to Tantawi was to confirm the ayah that we were discussing! You are not being intellectually fair.
Here is the post
@Samia the ayah
Samia as you can see has a tanwiin fatha, which makes the word indefinite, plural and feminine.
But Samia, for some reason in the Free Minds "Translation of the Glorious Qur`an" in the Arabic of Sura 73 Muzammil ayah / verse 5 http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/73/5 the tanwiin fatha's are MISSING!
In fact the tanwiin fatha's are missing on BOTH "qawlan thaqeelan" in the Arabic!
Confirmation Reference Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi Reviewed by Mohammed Fahim Abou 'Oubayya (page 773 Surah Al Muzzamil ayah 5)
Im sorry, If it offends you, but the Free Minds Arabic translation does NOT have the harakat. Thus the use of the Tantawi reference.
@Samia, Its not about you or me, the picture is bigger than you or I, this forum, etc. When we leave this life, the Quran and Muslims will still be here. Thus threatening me means nothing, I will bear my burden and you will bear your burden.
Then there are among men such as say, "We believe in Allah"; but when they suffer affliction in (the cause of) Allah, they treat men's oppression as if it were the Wrath of Allah! And if help comes (to you) from thy Lord, they are sure to say, "We have (always) been with you!" Does not Allah know best all that is in the hearts of all creation?
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Well if my literal and word for word translation is wrong... then the simplest thing you can do is to give the right translation of this phrase... If you look at 7155 - 156 ... You will see that the verse are referring to Musa and his people... the people who we know as Ahl-ul-Kitab... However, I still cannot get your way of thinking...
If I want to say this in arabic..
the news is written in the news paper
I will say...
Al Akhbaarou matooban fil jareedati...
In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel'
The meaning of this phrase is PLAIN... Moubeen...Clear... Why are you trying to make us see what is not written there??
The Quran is a guide for humanity in complete.... Its not intended only for high thinkers... Do you think the farmer/labourer etc... I mean those who did not pursue big studies will know about these details and weird gramatical rules... They will have to understand the Quran plainly as Allah says in many times in the Quran, Al-Kitab Al moubeen...
@Wayfinder Maktooban is a passive participle, which means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Subject of the verb, NOT active, but acted upon; receiving impressions or INTERNAL influences
Wayfinder, its impossible to 'write' something in past tense, using a passive participle or for that matter to 'write' something in a literal or active sense, a passive participle is just that, passive, internal influence NOT something 'actively' written on papers.
@Wayfinder your reference to the ayah is incorrect...
"In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' "
Correct transliteration....
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
The question still remains to be answered, What is the subject/object that maktooban, the passive participle is influencing?