Who are the people of the book?
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Assalaam Aalaikum @Wayfinder
Please get the basics down first, before arguing a position you dont understand. One, there is nom reference to 'previous scriptures' in Sura 7.157.
Secondly, Lets bring you up to speed, real quick....
@Wayfinder....What does this mean? 'Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya alommiyya '
Please dont use numerous translations, they are all wrong....
Take your time....
Peace MTR
Before I answer your question... please answer this... Tell me what this phrase means since you tell me their is NO REFERENCE to previous scriptures in that verse...
7157 ".......... allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waalinjeeli ............."
I would like to know how you would translate this verse... Please take your time too....
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So your 'proof' was changing EVERY reference in the English translation from 'Taurat' to 'Torah', in every ayah you can find? Then suggesting that the ayah is referring to 'Torah?
Thats your 'proof'?
- YOU dont know or read Arabic of Quran
- YOU have NOT studied the grammatical references as it relates to the Quran
- YOU cannot PROVE a lie Where are the 'misconceptions'?
Arnab, Parroting the perceptions of others, does NOT validate or confirm that you actually know and understand the subject matter.
What I have proven is that the Torah has no relevance to the Quran.
The reason why you did NOT address this question
"Arnab Which one is it? 'Al-Tawrat' or 'Al-Toori'?"
Is because you NEVER studied the Quran in depth enough to KNOW that Muusa,as was given Al-Toori.
Again, there is NOT one ayah that states 'I gave Muusa,as Al-Tawrat'
Now do a bit more research as it relates to Al-Toori and Al-Tawrat, then lets talk.
Please do NOT change the references to Al-Toori to Torah
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Peace MTR
Before I answer your question... please answer this... Tell me what this phrase means since you tell me their is NO REFERENCE to previous scriptures in that verse...
7157 ".......... allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waalinjeeli ............."
I would like to know how you would translate this verse... Please take your time too....
Excuse me, YOU made the assertion, prove it. Why ask me?
Where is the mention of 'previous scriptures'? in the Arabic
By the way, Maktuub is an ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, derived verb, denoting constant/present tense, repetition/repeating and manifestation of the attribute.
I dont argue translations
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Excuse me, YOU made the assertion, prove it. Why ask me?
Where is the mention of 'previous scriptures'? in the Arabic
By the way, Maktuub is an ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, derived verb, denoting constant/present tense, repetition/repeating and manifestation of the attribute.
I dont argue translations
allathee = those who
yajidoona = they found
hu = it
maktooban = written, from root kataba(to write), here the verb is in HAAL form, which denotes a state
AAindahum = they have
fee = in
alttawrati = the tawrat
waalinjeeli = the injeelAnything wrong here? hmm
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Anything wrong here? hmm
yajidoonahu / They find ; Imperfect verb indicates present or future tense meaning ?Is?, occurring NOW and in the Future
maktuuban is again active participle, means 'writing' 'written' is incorrect.
AAindina is a preposition which means AT, NEAR, by, WITH, on, AT THAT MOMENT, AT THIS INSTANT, WITH THESE WORDS, IMMEDIATELY ; Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary page 759-760 (inda)
Hum, 3rd person, plural pronoun meaning 'them'
@Wayfinder, the words all denote present tense NOT past tense meaning, sorry no previous scriptures
As I mentioned to the 'Torah Peddler' the Quran, Tawrat and Injeel have nothing to do with Torah and Bible, thats been made clear.
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maktuuban is again active participle, means 'writing' 'written' is incorrect.
Wrong. It's a passive participle and it means "written".
AAindina What's this? There's no such word in Hans Wehr. The entry "3inda " is on page 648, not 759. You're not quoting Hans Wehr
AT THAT MOMENT, AT THIS INSTANT
These are mentioned under "3inda-ithin " which is completely different from "3inda ".
WITH THESE WORDS, IMMEDIATELY
Where did you get this from?
Not that these are your only mistakes, but I really gave up on correcting your bizarre and wrong grammar since I first started to respond to your posts. Please stop referring to wrong grammar not only because it is wrong but also because it's irrelevant most of the time and serves nothing. Anyone who takes MTR's grammar seriously, does it on their own responsibility.
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Assalaam Alaikum @Samia
I could careless what you say to attempt to slander my perceptions. Besides I never asked you to 'correct' any perceived mistakes.
Maktuub / maktuuban is a passive participle, thats true. I was mistaken.
Now does that qualify you to slander me?
In our previous discussion you made some rather gross misinterpretations, I dont recall slandering you and attempting to garner an audience.
@Samia, by the way I dont just use Hans Wehr or one specific reference. I note Hans Wehr or Dictionary of the Holy Quran due to the easy accessibility of these references. So when I note those references, Im NOT 'quoting' them, Im encompassing other sources in the meaning also.
@Samia, As I illustrated in our previous discussion, your reference to the Free Minds Modern Standard Arabic 'translation' is NOT a valid or proper translation of the Quranan Arabbiyyan. May I suggest, before slandering me in regards to my perceptions relative to the language of the Quran, that you refer to a 'proper' Arabic Quran that maintains the correct tashkheel and Harakat.
@Samia Now would you care to address Sura 7.157?
maktuuban is PASSIVE participle, which requires an object, that is being 'written on or to'
What is this object?
Something is being 'written to' in present tense, now the preposition AAinda-hum makes that clear
@Samia What is the 'Object' that is being 'written to' in Sura 7.157?
I await your response to this question.
Inda, preposition meaning near, for, to, PRESENCE ; Language of the Holy Quran by Nadwi page 201
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 390 (Inda) Preposition meanings 'here, with , by, at the point of, about, from; The word denotes the idea of nearness, whether it be actual in the sense of possession or conceptual, it also denotes a sense of rank or dignity or opinion, time and place"
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Peace MTR
Initially you were not accepting that the verse were talking about previous scriptures... And not you are agreeing that MATOOBAN means 'written' ... And you are asking on what is it written? What is this question bro?? It says clearly in the verse that 'Which they find WRITTEN in the Injeel and the Torah in their possession..."
Also, the since the verb is in present tense, it denotes continuity... which means, they will always find it written in their scriptures... Also this verse is making reference to the Nabi and not to the Messenger... You are trying to imply that the guys find it written in the Quran itself... However, most of the places where the Quran is referred, Muhammad is reffered as Messenger in these verses and not Nabi... Correct me if am wrong...
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Assalaam Alaikum @Wayfinder
Nope, sorry, Al Tawrat and Al Injeel are NOT the 'object' of the passive participle Maktoob.
Besides, Al Tawrat and Al Injeel were 'revealed' NOT 'written'
Does NOT translate to "Which they find WRITTEN in the Injeel and the Torah in their possession..."
Thats NOT there at all in the arabic grammar
Again, the question
What is the object of the passive participle Maktuban, that is being written to or on?
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Well if my literal and word for word translation is wrong... then the simplest thing you can do is to give the right translation of this phrase... If you look at 7155 - 156 ... You will see that the verse are referring to Musa and his people... the people who we know as Ahl-ul-Kitab... However, I still cannot get your way of thinking...
If I want to say this in arabic..
the news is written in the news paper
I will say...
Al Akhbaarou matooban fil jareedati...
In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel'
The meaning of this phrase is PLAIN... Moubeen...Clear... Why are you trying to make us see what is not written there??
The Quran is a guide for humanity in complete.... Its not intended only for high thinkers... Do you think the farmer/labourer etc... I mean those who did not pursue big studies will know about these details and weird gramatical rules... They will have to understand the Quran plainly as Allah says in many times in the Quran, Al-Kitab Al moubeen...
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Salaam MTR
No one needs permission to correct an error. I am not slandering you. I am telling what you are doing. References are sited so that people verify them, and to your bad luck, I do, and I can easily deduce that either you did not consult Hans Wehr on that specific word as you claimed, or you corrupted the information on that dictionary. Same thing with your claimed reference about Tantawi, whom you claimed has made this and other silly grammar
Samia as you can see has a tanwiin fatha, which makes the word indefinite, plural and feminine.
Confirmation Reference Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi Reviewed by Mohammed Fahim Abou 'Oubayya (page 773 Surah Al Muzzamil ayah 5)On this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597218.0Please stop posting wrong grammar and false references, and consider this as a formal warning.
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If I may inform you, as a Muslim Mumin I dont believe in 'bad luck' or 'good luck' for that matter. As Allah states 'What good comes to you is from Allah, that which is bad, comes from your own soul'
In response to your statement....
"No one needs permission to correct an error. I am not slandering you. I am telling what you are doing. References are sited so that people verify them, and to your bad luck, I do, and I can easily deduce that either you did not consult Hans Wehr on that specific word as you claimed, or you corrupted the information on that dictionary. Same thing with your claimed reference about Tantawi, whom you claimed has made this and other silly grammar"
It's 'cited' not sited. 'sighted', yes
Hans Wehr is on the 5th or 6th edition, I use the 4th edition. Thus the page references will be different from previous or current editions.(you corrupted the information on that dictionary?) Secondly, as I stated in a previous post, when I reference a word I use various sources, Hans Wehr is just one, 'what Im doing' is referring the audience to a credible source and easily accessible source.
Tantawi? I was referring to Tanween / Tanwiin, the harakah, which makes a word indefinite, plural and feminine, as part of the Idafa Construct a word with tanween can be DEFINITE. (silly grammar?)
The reference to Tantawi was to confirm the ayah that we were discussing! You are not being intellectually fair.
Here is the post
@Samia the ayah
Samia as you can see has a tanwiin fatha, which makes the word indefinite, plural and feminine.
But Samia, for some reason in the Free Minds "Translation of the Glorious Qur`an" in the Arabic of Sura 73 Muzammil ayah / verse 5 http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/73/5 the tanwiin fatha's are MISSING!
In fact the tanwiin fatha's are missing on BOTH "qawlan thaqeelan" in the Arabic!
Confirmation Reference Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi Reviewed by Mohammed Fahim Abou 'Oubayya (page 773 Surah Al Muzzamil ayah 5)
Im sorry, If it offends you, but the Free Minds Arabic translation does NOT have the harakat. Thus the use of the Tantawi reference.
@Samia, Its not about you or me, the picture is bigger than you or I, this forum, etc. When we leave this life, the Quran and Muslims will still be here. Thus threatening me means nothing, I will bear my burden and you will bear your burden.
Then there are among men such as say, "We believe in Allah"; but when they suffer affliction in (the cause of) Allah, they treat men's oppression as if it were the Wrath of Allah! And if help comes (to you) from thy Lord, they are sure to say, "We have (always) been with you!" Does not Allah know best all that is in the hearts of all creation?
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Well if my literal and word for word translation is wrong... then the simplest thing you can do is to give the right translation of this phrase... If you look at 7155 - 156 ... You will see that the verse are referring to Musa and his people... the people who we know as Ahl-ul-Kitab... However, I still cannot get your way of thinking...
If I want to say this in arabic..
the news is written in the news paper
I will say...
Al Akhbaarou matooban fil jareedati...
In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel'
The meaning of this phrase is PLAIN... Moubeen...Clear... Why are you trying to make us see what is not written there??
The Quran is a guide for humanity in complete.... Its not intended only for high thinkers... Do you think the farmer/labourer etc... I mean those who did not pursue big studies will know about these details and weird gramatical rules... They will have to understand the Quran plainly as Allah says in many times in the Quran, Al-Kitab Al moubeen...
@Wayfinder Maktooban is a passive participle, which means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Subject of the verb, NOT active, but acted upon; receiving impressions or INTERNAL influences
Wayfinder, its impossible to 'write' something in past tense, using a passive participle or for that matter to 'write' something in a literal or active sense, a passive participle is just that, passive, internal influence NOT something 'actively' written on papers.
@Wayfinder your reference to the ayah is incorrect...
"In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' "
Correct transliteration....
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
The question still remains to be answered, What is the subject/object that maktooban, the passive participle is influencing?
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Salaam MTR
Still you are unable to prove me wrong.
- Hans Weir entry is corrupted by you when you mix entries of two different words to add to the meanings of one word.
- Tantawi was referred to in his "Grammatical Analysis of the Glorious Qur'aan" for a completely wrong grammatical analysis of a word.
Nope, sorry, Al Tawrat and Al Injeel are NOT the 'object' of the passive participle Maktoob.
Now tell me, where did you study that a passive participle must have an object, or may even have an object?
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@Wayfinder Maktooban is a passive participle, which means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Subject of the verb, NOT active, but acted upon; receiving impressions or INTERNAL influences
Wayfinder, its impossible to 'write' something in past tense, using a passive participle or for that matter to 'write' something in a literal or active sense, a passive participle is just that, passive, internal influence NOT something 'actively' written on papers.
@Wayfinder your reference to the ayah is incorrect...
"In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' "
Correct transliteration....
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
The question still remains to be answered, What is the subject/object that maktooban, the passive participle is influencing?
maktooban / written AAinda / on (Object) hum / them
The Tawrat and Injeel was 'revealed' BEFORE Muusa, as and Essa,as .....
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel
(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to mankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.
There is no 'writing' of 'previous scriptures'
You wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself / olaika kataba fee quloobihimu al-eemana wa ayyadahum biroohin minhu. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.
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@Wayfinder Maktooban is a passive participle, which means a verb, or form of a verb, which expresses the effect of the action on the Subject of the verb, NOT active, but acted upon; receiving impressions or INTERNAL influences
Wayfinder, its impossible to 'write' something in past tense, using a passive participle or for that matter to 'write' something in a literal or active sense, a passive participle is just that, passive, internal influence NOT something 'actively' written on papers.
@Wayfinder your reference to the ayah is incorrect...
"In the verse 7157... it says 'Maktooban fit tawraati wal injeel' "
Correct transliteration.... <---- <---- <---- yay
Allatheena yattabiAAoona alrrasoola alnnabiyya al-ommiyya allathee yajidoonahu maktooban AAindahum fee alttawrati waal-injeeli
The question still remains to be answered, What is the subject/object that maktooban, the passive participle is influencing?
You have said on and on that the translation is not correct... however, I asked you for the correct translation and you have not given it yet and you keep saying the same thing and same verses on and on.... So first thing to do if you want to post a reply for this post is to translate this verse 'correctly' in your view...
Regards
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yajidoonahu / they find maktooban / written, described, whose example is defined AAinda / near, on, with hum / them fee / in Al-Tawrati wa Al-Injeeli
Confirmed....
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)wujoohihim means direct face
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There is no 'writing' of 'previous scriptures'
Are you sure, then what was sent to Sheba other than a previous Quran?
Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun
2729 She said "You, you the nobles, that I, is thrown to me (an) honored bookInnahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
2730 That it truly is from Soliman, and that it truly is by God's name the almighty, the most merciful.Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
5677 That it truly (is) a Quran, honored -
Are you sure, then what was sent to Sheba other than a previous Quran?
Qalat ya ayyuha almalao innee olqiya ilayya kitabun kareemun
2729 She said "You, you the nobles, that I, is thrown to me (an) honored bookInnahu min sulaymana wainnahu bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi
2730 That it truly is from Soliman, and that it truly is by God's name the almighty, the most merciful.Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
5677 That it truly (is) a Quran, honoredYou answered your own question!
Quran Kareem!
Sulaiman,as sends the Kitab to Saba....
"Go you, with this Kitabi of mine, and deliver it to them. then draw back from them, and (wait to) see what answer they return"...
Ithhab bikitabee hatha faalqih ilayhim thumma tawalla AAanhum faonthur matha yarjiAAoona
There was, for Saba, aforetime, a Sign in their home-land - two Gardens to the right and to the left. "Eat of the Sustenance (provided) by your Lord, and be grateful to Him. a territory fair and happy, and a Lord Oft-Forgiving!
Then they rejected....Quran Kareem
But they turned away (from Allah), and We sent against them the Flood (released) from the dams, and We converted their two garden (rows) into "gardens" producing bitter fruit, and tamarisks, and some few (stunted) Lote-trees.
That was the Requital We gave them because they ungratefully rejected Faith. and never do We give (such) requital except to such as are ungrateful rejecters.
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yajidoonahu / they find maktooban / written, described, whose example is defined AAinda / near, on, with hum / them fee / in Al-Tawrati wa Al-Injeeli
Confirmed....
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in Prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks / seemahum fee wujoohihim , the traces of their prostration. This is their behavior in the Taurat; and their character in Al-Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
seemahum means a sign, a characteristic, outward characteristic, feature , trait, stamp, impress, character, facila expression, features, character traits;
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 1255-1256 (wasama) Page 501-502 (sami?a)wujoohihim means direct face
Peace MTR
I see that you are making another attempt to bypass the 7157 and redirecting our attention elsewhere on other verses and you are therefore arousing a lot of confusion around... The 7157 is so plain and clear, however, your biased view is urging you to use the other verse as a confirmation... the very same verse which you keep pasting on and on... Whats wrong with you? Whats wrong wrong with your logic?
However, what I can find very wrong with you is your arabic grammar....
You are using all kind of words to describe the state of these words.... Can you use arabic words themselves to define these words?
MAKTOOBAN --> Haal, Mansoob (Do you know what this means?)
HAAL is a state of a word which denotes a state of something... Same as RAAKI3AN(bowing or humble state), QAA'IMAN (standing state) etc...
HAAL are always MANSOOB.... And this is the proof that MAKTOOB(AN) is a HAAL here....
MAKTOOB means written down... Can you find another meaning from the dictionaries? The object on which it is written down is clearly stated in the 7157 itself... Its written down 'FEE / in" At Tawrat and Al-Injeel.... But no idea why this is not fitting in your head.... Although its plain and clear...
The fact is, this 7157 alone proves that Al-Tawrat and Al-Injeel were written down... We all know that something written down cannot happen in the present... Since the Quran was currently being revealed, it cannot link back to mean the Quran.... This 7157 alone make your whole theory collapse....
I advice you to stop bringing so much confusion in the minds of people....
IF YOU WANT TO REPLY AGAIN, PLEASE, MAKE A WHOLE LONG POST ON THE 7157 ALONE AND NOT GO PASS IT IN 1 LINE.... IF VERILY, YOU ARE AMONG THE ONES WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...
Regards