Who are the people of the book?
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Peace again "arnab",
Here is a list of more absurdities from the book of Deuteronomy and your welcome to point out the mistakes in translation again if you can
God gave the Moabites and the Ammonites special protection since they were the descendents of Lot's drunken, incestuous affair with his daughters (Gen.1930-3. 29, 19
"A land of giants giants dwelt therein in old time." (They must have been much more common back then.) 210-11, 20-21
Og, the king of the giants, was a tall man, even by NBA standards. His bed measured 9 by 4 cubits (13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide). 311
Comment We have solid evidence from palaentology that clearly shows no hominid fossils larger than us.
God's favorite people will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. (God will send infertility and diseases on the other guys.) 714-15
God will send hornets to kill your enemies, "for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible." 720-23
After God instructs the Israelites to mercilessly slaughter all the strangers that they encounter (Dt.72, 16), he tells them to "love ye therefore the stranger for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt." 1019
Stone to death blasphemers, Sabbath breakers, and disobedient sons 1232
Don't "make any baldness between your eyes for the dead." 141
This verse mistakenly says that the hare chews its cud which they dont and you can ask any scientist. 147-8
Don't eat any seafood unless it has fins and scales. Oysters, clams, crabs, and lobsters are "unclean" and shouldn't be eaten. 1410
To the biblical God, a bat is just an another unclean bird. 1411, 18
Don't eat any dead animals that you find lying around. But it's okay to give it to strangers or sell it to foreigners. And don't boil a kid (young goat) is its mother's milk. 1421
If you find a dead body and don't know the cause of death, then get all the elders together, cut off the head of a heifer, wash your hands over its body, and say our hands have not shed this blood. (That'll do it!) 211-8
Hang on trees the bodies of those who are "accursed of God." They make nice decorations. 2122
Women are not to wear men's clothing -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord." 225
"Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together" or wear wool and linen together in the same garment. But "thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture." 2210-12
You can't go to church if your testicles are damaged or your penis has been cut off. 231
God won't let bastards attend church. Neither can the sons or daughters of bastards "even to the tenth generation." So if you plan to attend church next Sunday be ready to prove that your genitals are intact and don't forget your birth certificate and genealogical records for at least the last ten generations. Don't laugh. This stuff is important to God. 232
God gives us instructions for defecating. He says to carefully cover up all feces "for the Lord walketh in the midst of thy camp." (You wouldn't want the divine foot to step in your shit, would you?) 2312-14
Remarrying your former wife after divorcing her is an abomination to the Lord. 244
If a man dies without having a child, his brother shall "go in unto" his dead brother's wife. If he refuses, the dead man's wife is to loosen his shoe and spit in his face. 255-10
If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the "secrets" of the other, "then thou shalt cut off her hand" and "thy eye shall not pity her." 2511-12
"I have not ... given ought thereof for the dead.
Don't worry God. I haven't offered any food to dead people. 2614"The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low ... he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail." 2843-44
The shoes and clothing of the Israelites didn't wear out even after wandering in the wilderness for forty years. They just don't make them like they used to! 295
God will circumcise your heart and "the heart of thy seed." 306
When Moses was 120 years old he could no longer "go out and come in." Yet just a little later (Dt.347) we are told that "his eye was not dim, nor his natural forces abated." 311-2
"Their wine is the poison of dragons." I wonder what genus and species the bible is referring to when it mentions dragons. 3233
Joseph's "horns are like the horns of a unicorn." 3317
Moses, the alleged author of the Pentateuch, describes his own death and burial. 345
GOD Bless!
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Peace "arnab",
Here again is a list of more vile statements from the same book of Deuteronomy. Again your welcome to point out the faults in translation IF any."The Lord destroyed them before them" -- the general treatment of the people who were supposedly displaced by the Israelites. 221-22
All nations shall be terrorized by the followers of Yahweh. 225
At God's instructions, the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." 233-36
The Israelites, with God's help, kill all the men, women, and children of every city. 33-6
If someone makes an image of anything (like a bird or flower) then God will destroy the entire nation. 425-26
If you worship the wrong god, God will get jealous and kill you. 615
God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. 72
If you do show any mercy to such strangers, "give your daughters to any of them, or "take" any of their daughters, then you'll get God so angry that he'll "destroy thee suddenly." 74
God commands his people to "consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity on them." 716
God is "a consuming fire" that destroys people. 93
"The blood of sacrifices shall be poured out ... and thou shalt eat the flesh." Isn't this the sort of thing that Satanists are accused of doing? 1227
After God kills those of other faiths, be sure to reject their beliefs and do not learn about them. Otherwise God will have to kill you too. 1230
Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 131-5
If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 136-10 (Here the verse is clearly a COMMAND and not just a consequence or explain using the exact Hebrew terms)
If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. (Watch out Salt Lake!) 1312-16
Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 172-7
Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed. 1712-13
False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 1820
Murderers and perjurers are to be executed -- "and thine eye shall not pity" them. 1911-13, 18-21
"And thine eye shall not pity. Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." 1921
In the cities that god "delivers into thine hands" you must kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword .... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself." 2013
"But of the cities ... which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies. 2016
If you have a "stubborn and rebellious son," then you and the other men in your neighborhood "shall stone him with stones that he die." 2118-21
If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep. 2213-21
If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." 2223-24
Legal disputes are settled by a judge who determines guilt or innocence. No lawyers or jury are needed. 251-3
If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the "secrets" of the other, "then thou shalt cut off her hand" and "thine eye shall not pity her." 2511-12
"Thou shalt begat sons and daughters, but thou shall not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity." 2841
"All these curses shall come upon thee ... and upon thy seed for ever." 2848-49
"The tender and delicate woman" will be forced to eat her own children "that cometh out from between her feet." 2856-57
Moses tells the people that God will destroy all the inhabitants of the lands that they pass through. 313
When God gets mad -- watch out! He'll starve you to death, burn you with fire, and send vicious beasts to devour you. He'll "destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs." Not even the helpless and innocent are spared by this psychotic God. 3221-26
God says, "To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense ... for the day of their destruction is at hand." 3235
God says, "I kill ... I wound ... I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh." Someone should take his sword and arrows away, at least until he's feeling better. 3239-43
GOD Bless!
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Peace "arnab",
Here look at this clear verse
Leviticus 2416
'Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death(ok consequence maybe argued upto here but then...); all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.So it is clear that this is a command the "faithful" congregation to carry out. GOD Bless!
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Peace "arnab",
JK- Ok here i quote some more verses just from Leviticus
If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 2011
If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 2012
If you "lie" with your wife and your mother-in-law (now that sounds fun!), then all three of you must be burned to death. 2014
If a man or woman "lie with a beast" both the person and the poor animal are to be killed. 2015-16
People with "familiar spirits" (witches, fortune tellers, etc.) are to be stoned to death. 2027
So these are not just consequences as you can see from the keywords. And the list of absurdities goes on
A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 219
God gives detailed instructions for performing ritualistic animal sacrifices. such bloody rituals must be important to God, judging from the number of times that he repeats their instructions. Indeed the entire first nine chapters of Leviticus can be summarized as follows Get an animal, kill it, sprinkle the blood around, cut the dead animal into pieces, and burn it for a "sweet savor unto the Lord." Chapters 1 - 9
"Flay the burnt offering; cut it into pieces." 16
Burn the head, fat, and entrails for "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 18-9
"Kill it and sprinkle blood round about." 111, 32, 38, 313
"Cut it into pieces and burn it for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 112-13
"Wring off its head and burn it." 115
"For a sweet savour unto the Lord." 117
"Part it in pieces... it is a meat offering." 26
"It is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire." 210
What to do with the fat, kidneys, and liver of your burnt offerings. 33-4, 39-10, 314-16
"Kill the bullock before the Lord and take of the bullock's blood." 44
"The priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord." 46, 417
"Pour all the blood at the bottom of the altar." 47
What to do with the fat, kidneys, liver, skin, head, entrails, and dung from your burnt offerings. 48-11
"The bullock shall be killed before the Lord." 414
"Kill it and pour out the blood." 424-25
"Slay it for a sin offering, pour out the blood, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord." 429-31
Slay it for a sin offering, put the blood on your finger, and pour out the blood at the bottom of the altar. 433-34
Wringing off the heads of pigeons for God. 58-9
Kill the sin offering before the Lord. "It is most holy." 625
The holy law of trespass offering Find an animal; kill it; sprinkle the blood around; offer God the fat, rump, kidneys, and caul; burn and eat it in the holy place, for "it is most holy." 71-6
The priest must sprinkle the blood of the peace offerings. 714
Be careful what you eat during these animal sacrifices. Don't eat fat or blood -- these are for God. (And he doesn't like to share!) 718-27
God gives instructions for "wave offerings" and "heave offerings." He says these offerings are to be made perpetually "by a statute for ever." Have you made your heave offering today? 730-36
Moses does it all for God. First he kills an animal; wipes the blood on Aaron's ears, thumbs, and big toes. Then he sprinkles blood round about and waves the guts before the Lord. Finally he burns the whole mess for "a sweet savour before the Lord." 814-32
More killing, sprinkling of blood, waiving animal parts, and burning carcasses "before the Lord." 92-21
Kill the calf, dip your finger in the blood, sprinkle the blood round about, burn the fat and entrails, and wave the breast for a wave offering before the Lord. 98-21
Two of the sons of Aaron "offered strange fire before the Lord" and "there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord." 101-3
If priests misbehave at the tabernacle by uncovering their heads, tearing their clothes, leaving with holy oil on them, or by drinking "wine or strong drink", then God will kill them and send his wrath on "all the people." 106-9
After a woman gives birth, a priest must kill a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering. This is because having children is sinful and God likes it when things are killed for him. 126-8
God's law for lepers Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 142-32
God "put the plague of leprosy" into the houses of the Canaanites. 1434
God explains the use of scapegoats. It goes like this Get two goats. Kill one. Wipe, smear, and sprinkle the blood around seven times. Then take the other goat, give it the sins of all the people, and send it off into the wilderness. 166-28
Sprinkle the blood and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord. 176
If you upset God, he'll cause the land to vomit you out. 1825
"Whosoever shall commit any of these abominations ... shall be cut off from among their people." 1829, 198
Don't eat sacrifices on the third day or God will cut you off from among your people. 196-8
Kill anyone who "gives his seed" to Molech. If you refuse, God will cut you and your family off. 202-5
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first? 209
God gives us more instructions on killing and burning animals. I guess the first nine chapters of Leviticus wasn't enough. He says we must do this because he really likes the smell -- it is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 2312-14, 18
Don't do any work on the day of atonement or God will destroy you. 2329-30
A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 2410-23
Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire community. 2416
God tells the Israelites to make slaves out of their neighbors and their families. The "heathens" and "strangers" are to be their possessions forever. 2544-46
God tells the Israelites to "chase" their enemies and make them "fall before you by the sword." He figures five of the Israelites will be able to "chase" a hundred of their enemies, and a hundred will be able to "put ten thousand to flight." 267-8
God describes the torments that he has planned for those who displease him. The usual stuff plagues, burning fevers that will consume the eyes, etc. but he reserves the worst for the little children. He says "ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it," "I will send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children," and "ye shall eat the flesh of your sons and daughters." 2616-39
All "devoted" things (both man and beast) "shall surely be put to death." 2728-29
Salam,
I'm going to paste what I wrote in another thread here because it is requires a similiar answer (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596859.msg174548#msg17454
These are verdicts/sentences/penalties. We are told the same thing in the Quran. These are the outermost verdicts that we are allowed to use in a matter.
543
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
The Quran acknowledges those are the judgments that were outlined in the Torah. Just because those are allowed in an extreme case, IT does not mean that YOU HAVE TO give that Judgement. IT means that is the utmost extent of the judgments that you can give according to each crime. There are many times when beni Isreal did ATROCIOUS things and by all rights they could have been punished accordingly but Allah forgave them.
Many of the prophets after the Torah period spoke out about the way the Isrealites were automatically going to extremes and forgetting to be merciful. Even, Isa spoke about this frequently.At the end of the verses we are told that who does not judge by what Allah revealed they are the unjust.
Here is an example of some verses that indicate forgiveness (the translation is faulty and inaccurate but you this is just to give you the idea...also these are not the only verses regarding mercy and forgiveness-obviously)
Num 1522 And when ye shall err, and not observe all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
Num 1523 even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD gave commandment, and onward throughout your generations;
Num 1524 then it shall be, if it be done in error by the congregation, it being hid from their eyes, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt-offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD - with the meal-offering thereof, and the drink-offering thereof, according to the ordinance - and one he-goat for a sin-offering.
Num 1525 And the priest shall make atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and they shall be forgiven; for it was an error, and they have brought their offering, an offering made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin-offering before the LORD, for their error.
Num 1526 And all the congregation of the children of Israel shall be forgiven, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; for in respect of all the people it was done in error.
Num 1527 And if one person sin through error, then he shall offer a she-goat of the first year for a sin-offering.
Num 1528 And the priest shall make atonement for the soul that erreth, when he sinneth through error, before the LORD, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven,
Num 1529 both he that is home-born among the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them ye shall have one law for him that doeth aught in error.Also Deuteronomy (27-30) effectively outlines the "blessing and the curse" so that one understands that God is always merciful and forgiving if you turn to him but wrathful if you turn away from him and his commandments.
JK- Ok lets see how much of the above verses you can prove have not been translated correctly and then we can talk.
Are you kidding me?
You want me to translate and teach you hebrew in all of those verses. OF course there are many mis-translations and misconceptions.What would you do if a non-muslim who did not understand a word of Arabic gave you a list (such as above) from Surah Al-Baqarah and asked you to explain them and the mistranslations in one sitting....and demanded all the answers at once. It's impossible.
Now, if you want to be reasonable....pick a verse. ONE verse at a time and we can go through them one at a time. I will be happy to explain them to you. But don't be unreasonable.
Clerarly theres alot of nonsense in the hebrew bible too so it cannot be containing the true torah or gospel or psalms. Experts on hebrew language agree that the Bible books have many versions and they are by no means similar in all ways.
So-called Experts on the Quran say similiar things that are NOT true. They pick it apart often. Does that mean its true? No it does not.
JK- Ok lets have a discussion on what i mentioned above. REALLY i can see you have alot of misconceptions. Secular Scholars of the Bible have already studied it IN HEBREW and discredited it. It surprises me that you insist that the Hebrew Bible is the true Word of GOD. GOD Bless!
There are also people who have read the Quran and "discredited" it. That means nothing to me. One is either in submission to Allah or one listens to nonsense.
I read the Tanakh, the Injeel and Quran in the original languages. I know what I read. There are no misconceptions/misunderstandings/inaccuracies in the original languages.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
The message of the Quran is very different. Yes it allows eye for and eye etc BUT THTS THE MAXIMUM and forgiveness is better. But the Bible states that blasphemers be killed just because they worship a different god or worship false gods where the Quran provides freedom of religion/ideology. If it were not for the Bible hadith might have never appeared and sunnis/shias would have never have these violent laws with them. They all make the statement that those are continuations OF THE LAW OF MOSES. Is this all coincidence? I dont think so. Here check this out
http//y19.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51
You can clearly identify the pattern. GOD Bless! -
Peace "arnab",
Lets start with these two verses from Leviticus2014 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
2027 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death they shall stone them with stones their blood shall be upon them.
GOD Bless!
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Peace "arnab",
Lets start with these two verses from LeviticusThese are the OUTERMOST EXTREMES that one can take, as I've said before.
2014 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
2027 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death they shall stone them with stones their blood shall be upon them.
GOD Bless!
What is it that you don't understand?
Probably the fact that these are the OUTER LIMITS that can be taken.
4171
"O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion...."Notice the words "do not exceed the limits?"
Also, remember that MANY PROPHETS came after TORAH that URGED beni Isreal not TO BE QUICK TO JUDGE AND ISSUE PENALTIES such as above?
The TORAH is the LAW and PUNISHMENT after something has been witnessed, presented, judged etc....
Don't look at the Torah as if it is the last word.
It is not.After the TORAH many prophets came including ISA
4363
And when Isa came with clear arguments he said I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me
350
And authenticating what is present with me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me."
There are verses regarding punishment that are similiar within the Quran. Do you think the Quran is free from shocking punishments to be given to people in extreme cases? Surely, you are aware of these. IT is no different in the Torah.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
Where in those verses does it say that those are the outer most limits? You are reading things into the text which are not there. The verses quoted mention COMMANDS TO BE CARRIED OUT IN CASE ONE ENGAGES IN THE MENTIONED ACTIVITIES, NO IFS AND BUTS AND NO CONCESSIONS STATED. You dont find Quranic verses saying that one must do eye for an eye for the very verse states that forgivenss is betterAnd we decreed for them in it that the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.
The phrase in bold does not exist in those two verses in the Bible nor any other of such vile commands. SECONDLY these are when one has already been PHYSICALLY harmed whilst the two verses mention issues which have no physical harm involved but rather ideological. The above Biblical verses were NEVER the laws of GOD and those who attribute them to him are engaging in real blasphemy and they ought to be ashamed of themselves. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
I understand that the People of the Book encompasses alot of different groups.55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the protected from the believing women, and the protected from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their dowries, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
Does that mean you can marry Sunni, Shia, Christian or Jewish women? But some of them ascribe partners to God so how is this possible?
Thanks
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Salam farida.
Alif He Lam... Allah, Behold, Staff... in other words those who look at Allah's awesome authority.
Kaf Te Alif Be ... Hand, Basket, Allah, Home... in other words the writing collection of Allah's home.
AHL KTAB those that look upon the authority of Allah and have the collection of his writing in their home.
Allah taught man when he knew not.
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Peace "arnab",
Where in those verses does it say that those are the outer most limits? You are reading things into the text which are not there. The verses quoted mention COMMANDS TO BE CARRIED OUT IN CASE ONE ENGAGES IN THE MENTIONED ACTIVITIES, NO IFS AND BUTS AND NO CONCESSIONS STATED.You are reading some verses and then ignoring others! What I am saying is stated earlier on! The Torah does not read like the Quran. The Torah uses several chapters on a subject at a time....the list of ordinances and their meanings is listed continuously from Exodus through Deuteronomy. And the saying....but if you are merciful that is best....is not said at the end of each verse.....LEARN TO READ IT IN HEBREW and don't reject it before youve even read it.
You dont find Quranic verses saying that one must do eye for an eye for the very verse states that forgivenss is better
And we decreed for them in it that the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.
The phrase in bold does not exist in those two verses in the Bible nor any other of such vile commands.
OF COURSE IT DOESNT exist in those two verses.....the Torah is not written in the same form as the Quran. As I stated earlier.
SECONDLY these are when one has already been PHYSICALLY harmed whilst the two verses mention issues which have no physical harm involved but rather ideological. The above Biblical verses were NEVER the laws of GOD and those who attribute them to him are engaging in real blasphemy and they ought to be ashamed of themselves. GOD Bless!
So you reject The Torah I get it. Then why are you discussing this with me?
Do you think I will change my mind?
Do you think that you, (not knowing Hebrew and not even READING the Torah)
can make me (someone who UNDERSTANDS HEBREW and READS THE TORAH) change my mind?No. I fear my lord. I believe what is revealed including the Torah, The Injeel, The Prophets, The Writings and The Quran and I make no difference therein.
OBEY THE QURAN which tells you to do the same.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
ARNAB if you think that Leviticus, Deuteronomy and other books of the Bible constitute the Torah then your more delusional than i thought. THIS IS what is your basic mistake. Someone comes upto to you and says "THIS is the Torah or Quran Or Psalms" and you take it for granted. There is no arch evidence which supports that what is currently known as Torah by the Jews is the original or even the true Torah.
BUT wer long not done. NOW explain this set of absurdities also from LeviticusGod's law for lepers Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 142-52
Do hadith now come into mind? If you think this so called "torah" is GOD's Word then the sectarians are right to say that the hadith were also inspirations of GOD. Infact if i had a choice between these "torah" commandments and the hadith commandments i would take the latter. So absurd are the commandments in the OT. GOD Bless!
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Peace "arnab",
You are reading some verses and then ignoring others! What I am saying is stated earlier on! The Torah does not read like the Quran. The Torah uses several chapters on a subject at a time....the list of ordinances and their meanings is listed continuously from Exodus through Deuteronomy. And the saying....but if you are merciful that is best....is not said at the end of each verse.....LEARN TO READ IT IN HEBREW and don't reject it before youve even read it.
JK- Show me where the OT asks people to be merciful on people who have violated GOD's supposed law. The mercy your talking about is a mercy if one many attacks or defrauds the other yes and even the sectarian sunnis/shia often show forgiveness in this regard BUT NEVER when it comes to blasphemy or freedom of changing religion. Where in the OT "Torah" does it say that in case one is adulterous or blasphemes the Lord should there be mercy? GOD Bless!
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Peace "arnab",
ARNAB if you think that Leviticus, Deuteronomy and other books of the Bible constitute the Torah then your more delusional than i thought.So, now you call following the Torah delusional? I hope you are absolutely certain with your statement. Allah knows all. There are many many verses directing us to follow the Torah.
THIS IS what is your basic mistake.
Are you sure its not YOUR mistake.... that you are arguing about something which you have no knowledge?
Someone comes upto to you and says "THIS is the Torah or Quran Or Psalms" and you take it for granted.
Let me give you an example of how you are actually mirroring and describing your SELF
I HAVE read the Torah in HEBREW. I KNOW what I read. I am telling you that it is the TORAH spoken of in the QURAN. Based on reading, analyzing, comparing and intellect. This is based on KNOWLEDGE that I acquired by studying and searching for myself.
YOU on the other hand, have NEVER read the Torah in its original language, have never spent long hours laboring over learning Hebrew, comparing scripture and studying and YOU are telling me that it is not the Torah based only on what others have told you, NOT from using your own BRAIN and INTELLECT.
So, now tell me which one of us is just arbitrarily following what others tell them? hmm
God's law for lepers Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 142-52
Do hadith now come into mind? If you think this so called "torah" is GOD's Word then the sectarians are right to say that the hadith were also inspirations of GOD. Infact if i had a choice between these "torah" commandments and the hadith commandments i would take the latter. So absurd are the commandments in the OT. GOD Bless!
- Yes, there are many hadiths that are similiar to the Torah,
there are many hadiths also that are similiar to the Injeel and....sarcastic gasp....THE QURAN!
What does that matter? It doesn't.
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It is obvious that you don't want to examine this intellectually you just want to be assured that you are right. You will be satisfied with nothing less.
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The Torah is not a competition to the Quran.
Actually your arguments are very similiar to discussing the Quran with a non-muslim.
Most of us have come across non-Muslims who bring up the cutting off of hands for theft, that women should be covered from head to toe, ....the list goes on and on.When a non-muslim approaches a Muslim in the mind set that is not able to comprehend the Quran because they are too caught up in mis-conceptions, lack of knowledge of Arabic, and their own biases, there is nothing that can be discussed on an intellectual level.
Same here, jonny_k. You are arguing about which you have no knowledge of.
Salam,
Arnab - Yes, there are many hadiths that are similiar to the Torah,
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Peace "arnab",
JK- Show me where the OT asks people to be merciful on people who have violated GOD's supposed law. The mercy your talking about is a mercy if one many attacks or defrauds the other yes and even the sectarian sunnis/shia often show forgiveness in this regard BUT NEVER when it comes to blasphemy or freedom of changing religion. Where in the OT "Torah" does it say that in case one is adulterous or blasphemes the Lord should there be mercy? GOD Bless!
Salam,
(as always, this is a translation and therefore inaccurate....but, it will give you the main concept)
Deu 301 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 302 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 303 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 304 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee.
Deu 305 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 306 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 307 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee.
Deu 308 And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 309 And the LORD thy God will make thee over-abundant in all the work of thy hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good; for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as He rejoiced over thy fathers;
Deu 3010 if thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 3011 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 3012 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'
Deu 3013 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'
Deu 3014 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 3015 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil,
Deu 3016 in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances; then thou shalt live and multiply, and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.
Deu 3017 But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 3018 I declare unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it.
Deu 3019 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;
Deu 3020 to love the LORD thy God, to hearken to His voice, and to cleave unto Him; for that is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Salam,
Arnab -
Peace "arnab",
NONE of the verses you quoted show that the punishment of stoning or burning in case of adultery and blasphemy can be forfeited. Infact you quoted a verse which makes the so called "torah" even more absurd
Deu 3011 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
"Arnab" I would urge you tor repent whilst you still can. DO YOU ATTRIBUTE TO GOD THAT HE 1) STAES LAWS WHEREBY TO GET PEOPLE KILLED, STONED OR BURNT FOR BLASPHEMY AND ADULTERY AND THEN 2) HE STATES THAT THESE COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT TO HARD ON US? MAN everyone can see that this is complete nonsense and can by no means be from GOD. Your defaming GOD with this ignorance. GOD NEVER COMMANDED STONING or BURNING as a death penalty and He never commanded death for blasphemy which is an ideological viewpoint and GOD knew about how easily this can turn into "beleivers" accusing each others of such and killing each other. The only crime where GOD ALLOWED killing is if one is PHYSICALLY ATTACKED. Thats it. Anything else is the zenith of blasphemy. No sane and rational human being today would believe in a god who commanded such vile and nonsensible stuff as is there in the OT. GOD Bless! -
Peace again "arnab",
So, now you call following the Torah delusional? I hope you are absolutely certain with your statement. Allah knows all. There are many many verses directing us to follow the Torah.
JK- Im not calling the real Torah delusion. Im calling the OT delusional which some MERELY CLAIM to be the "Torah".
Are you sure its not YOUR mistake.... that you are arguing about something which you have no knowledge?
Let me give you an example of how you are actually mirroring and describing your SELF
I HAVE read the Torah in HEBREW. I KNOW what I read. I am telling you that it is the TORAH spoken of in the QURAN. Based on reading, analyzing, comparing and intellect. This is based on KNOWLEDGE that I acquired by studying and searching for myself.
JK- Can one not write a book in hebrew and name it "torah"? How can you say that the verses i quoted whether in hebrew or not are anything similar to the Quran. THEYR NOT. Ofcourse theres stuff IN BETWEEN which might be similar to the Quran just like some hadith might be similar to the Quran. Does that automatically make the whole book into the true Torah? What nonsense!
YOU on the other hand, have NEVER read the Torah in its original language, have never spent long hours laboring over learning Hebrew, comparing scripture and studying and YOU are telling me that it is not the Torah based only on what others have told you, NOT from using your own BRAIN and INTELLECT.
So, now tell me which one of us is just arbitrarily following what others tell them? hmm
JK- As i said your most welcome to explain the discrepancy in translation, if any, of the verses i bring up. We agreed stoning and death penalty for blasphemy is there in the OT. I say if it is then this is enough to show that that could NOT have been GOD's Word. A god who commands such is not a true god and by claiming that he is your blaspheming against the true GOD.
- Yes, there are many hadiths that are similiar to the Torah,
there are many hadiths also that are similiar to the Injeel and....sarcastic gasp....THE QURAN!
What does that matter? It doesn't.
JK- No it doesnt BUT the fact that many statements in the OT are also in the hadith WHILST NOT MENTIONED IN THE QURAN that is very telling. The Quran is the reminder. It already reminds of all the true statements. It confirms the true Torah, Injeel and all other scriptures of GOD which have been lost and remain undiscovered till today.
- It is obvious that you don't want to examine this intellectually you just want to be assured that you are right. You will be satisfied with nothing less.
JK- I want to examine it intellectually and i already did. I asked you many times how can GOD command such nonsense already.
- The Torah is not a competition to the Quran.
JK- No the true Torah is NOT but the false "torah" and the OT clearly are. Theyr in contradiction with all reality that weve observed.
Actually your arguments are very similiar to discussing the Quran with a non-muslim.
Most of us have come across non-Muslims who bring up the cutting off of hands for theft, that women should be covered from head to toe, ....the list goes on and on.JK- The Quran does NOT say to cut off the hand. It says to CUT the hand and gives an example of the women whilst admiring Yusuf CUT(same word) their hands. Did they cut off their entire hands? INTERESTING is also the fact that this CUTTING of hands by the women who admired Joseph is NOT mentioned in the Bible. As for women being covered from head to toe we both know that this stuff is derived from hadith and the Bible. Look at the nuns.
When a non-muslim approaches a Muslim in the mind set that is not able to comprehend the Quran because they are too caught up in mis-conceptions, lack of knowledge of Arabic, and their own biases, there is nothing that can be discussed on an intellectual level.
JK- MAN didnt you admit the Bible does mention GOD commanding to stone, burn blasphemers/aduleters. Forget the forgivenss part. ARE THESE COMMANDMENTS THERE OR NOT? If they are that is enough to consider the book satanic. Period! GOD Bless!
- Yes, there are many hadiths that are similiar to the Torah,
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Actually your arguments are very similiar to discussing the Quran with a non-muslim.
Most of us have come across non-Muslims who bring up the cutting off of hands for theft, that women should be covered from head to toe, ....the list goes on and on.When a non-muslim approaches a Muslim in the mind set that is not able to comprehend the Quran because they are too caught up in mis-conceptions, lack of knowledge of Arabic, and their own biases, there is nothing that can be discussed on an intellectual level.
Same here, jonny_k. You are arguing about which you have no knowledge of.
Salam,
ArnabSalaam,
handshake
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Peace "farida",
Salaam,
handshake
JK- So you agree that the current OT in original hebrew is what constitutes the true Torah? And with that you also agree that GOD did command at one time or another the stoning/burning of adulterers and blasphemers? GOD Bless!
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JK- The Quran does NOT say to cut off the hand. It says to CUT the hand and gives an example of the women whilst admiring Yusuf CUT(same word) their hands. Did they cut off their entire hands? INTERESTING is also the fact that this CUTTING of hands by the women who admired Joseph is NOT mentioned in the Bible. As for women being covered from head to toe we both know that this stuff is derived from hadith and the Bible. Look at the nuns.
jonny_k those examples were given as to what people MISCONCEIVE.
I was not stating them as fact. Don't be ridiculous.
As for the rest of the ramblings in your post.....
Again, you are confused and in your confusion you misunderstand.
There's nothing more I can say to you.
You've already stated several times that when the Quran tells you "YOU FOLLOW NO GOOD UNTIL YOU UPHOLD THE TORAH AND INJEEL."
that you disbelieve it's possible since you claim that they are not with us today.Dually noted.
Salam.