Divorce: State versus Islam
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Your confusing nikah with marriage, and talaq with divorce, is the source of the problem. Nikah is not marriage, talaq is not divorce.
Salaam Al Araf,
Can you please explain the meaning of nikah and talaq so I can understand where my confusion is?
Thanks,
dotty -
Salaam dotty. Let us examine nikah versus marriage, then talaq versus divorce.
Nikah is a private covenant undertaken by a man, with the covenant of a woman, in the presence of Allah, to join with women not of the prohibited relationships, wherein a man and a woman submit to the duties, and obtains rights prescribed by Allah. Marriage is generally a public state administered license between two persons, within which the duties upon each person vary upon either the licensing state, or administering jurisdiction.
I will use certain examples to show you were one cannot be the other. Two homosexual persons may receive a state marriage license. Two homosexual persons cannot covenant to a nikah. Therefore the marriage of two homosexuals cannot be a nikah. A nikah is a private covenant undertaken by a man with a woman in the presence of Allah, no state recognizes Allah in its license, nor can a public body a state administer a private covenant. Therefore an nikah is not a marriage. A man may have more than one nikah with different women, marriage laws prohibit multiple wives. Therefore the state does not recognize nikahs as marriages. I could go on for pages citing one example after another. Exhaustive study of the two reveals they are not the same.
Talaq is the private sending away by a man, and man relinquishing his authority over the woman in the covenant, extinguishing the covenant, by the procedure prescribed by Allah, entered into in the presence of Allah. Divorce is a public dissolution of the public marriage license, under procedures established by individual states and jurisdictions.
The examples that show one cannot be the other are A court can issue a judgment of divorce over a marriage, however until the man issues a talaq over the nikah, the nikah is in full force and effect. A court does not observe the hukum and hudood of Allah, therefore a court cannot produce any instrument that could be a talaq.
It is recorded in the shariat ul Esa, that a woman came to Esa, seeking forgiveness for her sin. Esa said, woman who is your husband. The woman had mutliple husbands none of whom had given her a talaq. The hadith of Esa records the woman became aware of her sin. I can find multiple instances of the Injeel and the Torah confirming these rules. The sharia of Esa records that he said, verily Musa suffered you that a man may issue a talaq.
Let me reiterate, a Nikah is not a Marriage, a Talaq is not a Divorce. Allah watches of all of us.
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Salaam Al Araf,
I know you tried hard to explain that nikah-marriage/talaq-divorce are completely separate from each other. Unfortunately I don't see the proof in this because every translation of the Quran I have seen has the words marriage and divorce in them.
You are aware I have previously posted the hudood for talaq in another thread.
I also tried to find this, but was unsuccessful. Anyway, going by your definition of talaq, what is the precise process? I'm sure you agree that filing divorce papers to the wife with no words of divorce is not proper. According to what I understand from your other posts, she is still his wife at this point and does not have the freedom to marry another after 4 months. And if talaq is only the right of the husband (as I also gathered from your other posts), then is she suppose to live her rest of life alone... possibly 30+ years?
Peace,
dotty -
Salam dotty. Let us begin from the authority. The authority is Allah. Allah has conveyed his hudood/limiting laws through nabi/messengers. We have those limiting laws in two forms, Quran and Kitab, the spoken word and the written word.
Your first mistake is to take an english translation as an authority. Allah did not send any Quran or Kitab in english. To rely upon english words as your authority is a pagan practice. To rely upon a translator as your authority is also a pagan practice. Please turn away from pagan terms and practices.
To reinforce that point, distiguish between the following terms "Quran" "Kitab" and "translation of the Quran" Quran is the spoken word of Allah, Kitab is the written word of Allah, and translation of Quran cannot exist. The very words themselves in Arabic and English have radically different defintions. Your belief that translations suffice as an authority is horrenduous error.
You are trying to say some persons took upon themselves, without authority from Allah, translating the Kitab. And these persons use terms like marriage which are godless pagan practices, and they attempt to equate them to nikah, which is outrageous.
I demonstrated earlier, by providing examples, that the definition of marriage does not include nikah, and in many cases excludes nikah. I also demonstrated, with examples, the the definition of nikah does not include marriage, and in many cases excludes marriage.
I see no purpose whatsoever in your attempts to make two radically different things the same, save for the motive that you may wish to confuse yourself and other Muslims, and try and use civil courts to set aside the hudood of Allah. An altogether evil exercise.
Your question as to the precise process demonstrates your further attempts to inject evil into Muslim nikahs and talaqs. You state "going by your defintion of talaq" Shame on you that is disgraceful. May Allah protect me from the shaitan. This is not "your definition of talaq" this is Allah's defintion of talaq. Do not ever make such an outrageous claim with me.
Your attempts to twist this around into "your defintion of talaq" leads me to want to reject answering your questions, since you are deliberately associating me with Allah. This is flat out shirk, and the conduct of a mushrik. be warned.
Until you cease the conduct, I have an answer to your thirty year question. Dont worry about thirty years, worry about aazab worry about jahannum
Allah is my protector.
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Your first mistake is to take an english translation as an authority. Allah did not send any Quran or Kitab in english. To rely upon english words as your authority is a pagan practice. To rely upon a translator as your authority is also a pagan practice. Please turn away from pagan terms and practices.
I agree that God is the authority. God also gave us many corners of the world in all different languages. Are you trying to say that God's message is ONLY for people who speak arabic or that Arabic speaking people are the ONLY ones who can understand God's message?
Your belief that translations suffice as an authority is horrenduous error.
Better to check yourself here and offer why you post verses in this forum translated in english?
I see no purpose whatsoever in your attempts to make two radically different things the same, save for the motive that you may wish to confuse yourself and other Muslims, and try and use civil courts to set aside the hudood of Allah. An altogether evil exercise.
You should be embarrassed for accusing me of WISHING to confuse anybody just because I am making an effort to understand.
Your question as to the precise process demonstrates your further attempts to inject evil into Muslim nikahs and talaqs. You state "going by your defintion of talaq" Shame on you that is disgraceful. May Allah protect me from the shaitan. This is not "your definition of talaq" this is Allah's defintion of talaq. Do not ever make such an outrageous claim with me.
You are imagining this. You say the Quran cannot be translated, then of course it would be "your" definition since you answered me in english.
Your attempts to twist this around into "your defintion of talaq" leads me to want to reject answering your questions, since you are deliberately associating me with Allah.
By all means... PLEASE reject answering my questions. DELIBERATELY associating you with Allah? This claim is outrageous.
Until you cease the conduct
I refuse to think that trying to understand something is "bad".
In the future... when someone is trying to understand something... refrain from accusing and judging.
Here I would like to reference 7514, but I will not post it in english. Your welcome!
Peace,
dotty -
Salaam Al Araf,
I know you tried hard to explain that nikah-marriage/talaq-divorce are completely separate from each other. Unfortunately I don't see the proof in this because every translation of the Quran I have seen has the words marriage and divorce in them.
I also tried to find this, but was unsuccessful. Anyway, going by your definition of talaq, what is the precise process? I'm sure you agree that filing divorce papers to the wife with no words of divorce is not proper. According to what I understand from your other posts, she is still his wife at this point and does not have the freedom to marry another after 4 months. And if talaq is only the right of the husband (as I also gathered from your other posts), then is she suppose to live her rest of life alone... possibly 30+ years?
Peace,
dottySalaam,
This sounds like a Jewish gett (divorce) where a husband can take up to three more wives without announcing ?gett? to the wife and the wife cannot remarry unless the husband utters ?gett? verbally and for this reason sometime Rabbis had to twist the husband?s arm and even beat him up to make him give the ?gett? to his wife.
This is very unfair as many women are left hanging in the middle.To divorce and remarry according to Jewish law a woman must obtain a bill of divorce (a ?gett?) from her husband. But some husbands refuse to give a ?gett?. The woman is then called an ?agunah? (?chained? to her recalcitrant husband). Few people know that this is one of the most serious sociological problems in modern Jewish life.
When a get is required but not obtained, the consequences can be drastic. The couple remain married under Jewish law. If the wife then conceives a child while she has no get ? and where that child has a different Jewish father from the man to whom she remains Jewishly married ? the child would have the damning status of a mamzer. This means that, together with any descendants, the child cannot normally marry another Jew or Jewess in an Orthodox synagogue.Dont worry about thirty years, worry about aazab worry about jahannum
Salaam,
Please explain why can a woman obtain divorce on this basisthen if you fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah, THERE IS NO BLAME ON THEM FOR WHAT SHE GIVES UP TO BECOME FREE THEREBY. These are the limits of Allah, so do not exceed them and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah these it is that are the unjust.2229.peace
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This sounds like a Jewish gett (divorce) where a husband can take up to three more wives without announcing ?gett? to the wife and the wife cannot remarry unless the husband utters ?gett? verbally and for this reason sometime Rabbis had to twist the husband?s arm and even beat him up to make him give the ?gett? to his wife.
This is very unfair as many women are left hanging in the middle.To divorce and remarry according to Jewish law a woman must obtain a bill of divorce (a ?gett?) from her husband. But some husbands refuse to give a ?gett?. The woman is then called an ?agunah? (?chained? to her recalcitrant husband). Few people know that this is one of the most serious sociological problems in modern Jewish life.
When a get is required but not obtained, the consequences can be drastic. The couple remain married under Jewish law. If the wife then conceives a child while she has no get ? and where that child has a different Jewish father from the man to whom she remains Jewishly married ? the child would have the damning status of a mamzer. This means that, together with any descendants, the child cannot normally marry another Jew or Jewess in an Orthodox synagogue.Thanks for the information... these things I did not know. However, I am referring to a muslim husband and wife. Married in the traditional muslim way, but the husband files for divorce and a divorce is granted by the state. The husband does not say to the wife "I divorce you", ever. It's just papers from the court. Let's say 4 months have passed and the wife is not pregnant. Let's also say the husband leaves and moves on with his life, possibly marries again. Maybe the wife does the same (what else can she do if the husband files divorce and leaves?).
Anyway, my question still stands... Are they really divorced in light of the Quran?
This is a topic I've been discussing with friends. There's a split decision. Some say that since papers are filed it is the same as the husband "saying" anything. Some say it's not. I'm still confused.
Peace,
dotty -
Salaam dotty and farida. The source of your confusion is relying on friends to advise you and your preconceived notions of fairness.
Allah gave you a Quran. There is NO EXCUSE for not reading the Quran. NONE.
Allah will ask you on the yown e qiyamat, whether he gave you a Quran easy in your tongue, and whether you obeyed Allah, or resorted to the advice of others and doggedly refused to let go of your obsession with courts and divorces. The answer is, he did give you a Quran, it is easy in your tongue, you dont obey Allah, and you do go elsewhere for advice, and you refuse to let go of your obsession with courts and divorces. The very title of this thread speaks VOLUMES as to whats going on.
State VERSUS Islam.
Tell me. If Allah tells you to go right, and the State tells you to go left, what will you choose? Dont pretend this is a big traumatic issue. It is very black and white. You either go the way of Islam or you do not. Please save the drama for yourselves. Those that have submitted to Allah dont need a second glance at the subject. Without a doubt they go the way of Islam.
Allah is mighty wise.
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Salam dotty. What part of READ THE QURAN do you not understand?
Allah is the best of teachers.
Salaam
Al Araf,So is there no way out for a woman whose husband does not divorce her properly?
I know of other cases where a husband tricked the wife and made her sign a divorce paper, and then he just disappeared without announcing the divorce. Now the woman who has no children and who was married to him for around 19 years is wondering about her material status. Her Sunni mosque have offered to act as an arbitrator saying that they can grant her divorce even if they cannot contact him. Are they wrong?
peace -
What part of READ THE QURAN do you not understand?
I HAVE read the Quran, several times... cover to cover.
I'm sure you understood EVERYTHING you read in the Quran, EVERY time you opened it. nope
Thank you Al Araf for being incredible rude. No need to reply to my questions on this thread in the future! You must have plenty of other places to parade your "perfect" self.
dotty
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Salam farida. There are always three sides to a story. The side from the complainant, the side from the respondent, and the most important side the truth.
You give us a completely one sided story, the other party has not had an opportunity to present their side of the story, and on this basis you expect rational people to form conclusions? That is utter nonsense.
Your story does not hold up under examination. You allege a husband tricked a wife into signing divorce papers. Allah's hudood requires the husband to go through the proper steps, first the arbitration, then the talaq issued in stages with the proper time intervals. There is no tricking a grown adult into signing papers. If the person is so weak minded they cannot avoid a "trick" they have no business claiming they were tricked. The presumption is a person has to look out for their own interests, and if they fail to do so, there is nobody who can protect them from their own stupidity. This trick wont be their only problem. Next the allegation is he just disappeared, It is unreasonable to expect anyone to believe this rubbish, you would have us believe that this woman got married to a stranger off the street, whom she never knew, she did no investigation as to his background, friends, and family, and somehow he vanished into thin air. Nothing could be more implausible. Next you claim a sunni mosque says they can issue a divorce. Given that last statement any reasonable person would believe that is not a mosque, not a sunni mosque, it is some sort of racket run by charlatans. Read the Quran, do you see any authority for such a claim?
The whole story is riddled with completely implausible scenarios, most likely the construction of a person who is mentally ill. My take on the story is, we have a woman who has taken off on her own after 19 years of marriage, has concocted this story of being tricked to elicit sympathy, and is looking for someone to be taken in by her fanciful story.
The short answer is the mosque is utterly wrong. They can neither issue a talaq, nor have they ever had the authority under the hudood to ever issue a talaq.
Allah sends down the distinction.
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Salam dotty. You claim to have read the Quran from cover to cover more than once. After reading the Quran you still dont understand, or so you claim.
I am not in the least bit surprised. You may not know what the problem is, Allah knows what the problem is, I know what the problem is, why you dont understand.
It is not the fault of Allah, it is not my fault either. The fault is yours alone. You REFUSE to accept what you read in the Quran, you wont abandon your refusal to accept what you have read, you post in this forum looking for someone to validate your wrong headed ways. The fault lies in your opposition to what you have read, and what you have been repeatedly told is the hudood of Allah.
I saw a post where someone referenced a hebrew Get, here is a big surprise for you, Allah makes NO MISTAKES, he was right when he told Musa the same, he was right when he told Esa the same, he is right when he told Muhammad the same. The SAME thing repeated over centuries, never changing, Allah is ALWAYS right.
As long as you persist in your insistence to have things your way, instead of the way appointed by Allah, you can read the Quran a thousand times you will not understand.
Yes, you will have to make a choice, you are either a believer who limits yourself to nikah and talaq ONLY as appointed by Allah, or you are a denier, hypocrite, and rejecter, who denies Allahs limits, hypocritically pretends to be a believer, and rejects the limits established by Allah.
Allah is mighty wise.
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Salam farida. There are always three sides to a story. The side from the complainant, the side from the respondent, and the most important side the truth.
You give us a completely one sided story, the other party has not had an opportunity to present their side of the story, and on this basis you expect rational people to form conclusions? That is utter nonsense.
Your story does not hold up under examination. You allege a husband tricked a wife into signing divorce papers. Allah's hudood requires the husband to go through the proper steps, first the arbitration, then the talaq issued in stages with the proper time intervals. There is no tricking a grown adult into signing papers. If the person is so weak minded they cannot avoid a "trick" they have no business claiming they were tricked. The presumption is a person has to look out for their own interests, and if they fail to do so, there is nobody who can protect them from their own stupidity. This trick wont be their only problem. Next the allegation is he just disappeared, It is unreasonable to expect anyone to believe this rubbish, you would have us believe that this woman got married to a stranger off the street, whom she never knew, she did no investigation as to his background, friends, and family, and somehow he vanished into thin air. Nothing could be more implausible. Next you claim a sunni mosque says they can issue a divorce. Given that last statement any reasonable person would believe that is not a mosque, not a sunni mosque, it is some sort of racket run by charlatans. Read the Quran, do you see any authority for such a claim?
The whole story is riddled with completely implausible scenarios, most likely the construction of a person who is mentally ill. My take on the story is, we have a woman who has taken off on her own after 19 years of marriage, has concocted this story of being tricked to elicit sympathy, and is looking for someone to be taken in by her fanciful story.
The short answer is the mosque is utterly wrong. They can neither issue a talaq, nor have they ever had the authority under the hudood to ever issue a talaq.
Allah sends down the distinction.
My wife will not deign to reply to your harangue so I feel obliged to assert the truthfulness of the story that my wife very conscientiously told. You on the other hand have based your reply on thin air and assumptions. My wife and I knew the couple well and were shocked but not wholly surprised to learn what had happened. BTW it transpired that he had also been married to another woman that he also left without a proper divorce and went on to marry a 3rd woman. It's not important whether or not you believe what my wife wrote, by your demeanor I can tell that you're not a person I could respect or want any further dealings with.
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Salam farida's husband. You claim that you are entitled to assert the truthfulness of your wife's story. Your very response demonstrates the truth is NOT being told. Farida says "then he just disappeared" you on the other hand claim "BTW it transpired that he had also been married to another woman that he also left without a proper divorce and went on to marry a third woman"
If he disappeared you would have no information as to his marriages. however, you claim knowledge of his third marriage. At first glance it appears either you or your wife is not telling the truth, either he has disappeared and you know nothing, or he has not dissapeared and you know about him and his third marriage. These posts do not pass the smell test.
If the gentleman had married one woman, went on to marry another woman, then married a third woman, all three without giving any one of them a talaq, this gentleman is well within the hudood, he has a right accorded to him by Allah to have more than one wife. To speak ill of his conduct is gheebat, his conduct is that of a momin.
However, if one of his wives did not recieve a talaq, and has taken up with another man, then that wife is an adulterer under any definition of the word.
If my demeanor is that of a person you cannot respect, the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah, my answer to you is very simple. You have no respect to give anyone being daeef. My respect comes from Allah and Allah alone.
Allah exposes the truth.
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Salam farida's husband. You claim that you are entitled to assert the truthfulness of your wife's story. Your very response demonstrates the truth is NOT being told. Farida says "then he just disappeared" you on the other hand claim "BTW it transpired that he had also been married to another woman that he also left without a proper divorce and went on to marry a third woman"
If he disappeared you would have no information as to his marriages. however, you claim knowledge of his third marriage. At first glance it appears either you or your wife is not telling the truth, either he has disappeared and you know nothing, or he has not dissapeared and you know about him and his third marriage. These posts do not pass the smell test.
If the gentleman had married one woman, went on to marry another woman, then married a third woman, all three without giving any one of them a talaq, this gentleman is well within the hudood, he has a right accorded to him by Allah to have more than one wife. To speak ill of his conduct is gheebat, his conduct is that of a momin.
However, if one of his wives did not recieve a talaq, and has taken up with another man, then that wife is an adulterer under any definition of the word.
If my demeanor is that of a person you cannot respect, the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah, my answer to you is very simple. You have no respect to give anyone being daeef. My respect comes from Allah and Allah alone.
Allah exposes the truth.
You called him a momin without knowing the full, confidential information; what stone did you creep out from under?
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If the gentleman had married one woman, went on to marry another woman, then married a third woman, all three without giving any one of them a talaq, this gentleman is well within the hudood, he has a right accorded to him by Allah to have more than one wife. To speak ill of his conduct is gheebat, his conduct is that of a momin.
If my demeanor is that of a person you cannot respect, the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah, my answer to you is very simple. You have no respect to give anyone being daeef. My respect comes from Allah and Allah alone.
Allah exposes the truth.
Salaam
You called him within hudood, "a momin" who takes one wife after another and has not been maitaining his wives by giving them their financial and sexual rights and then you go on to talk about the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah. You did not believe me when I told you a short problem but you quickly qualified this person whom you don't know as a momin. By yourself you judge others so maybe he's your kind.of "momins".
farida
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Salaam Al Araf,
Stop your mud-slinging and give me the EXACT process of divorce IN QURAN. Step one, step two, step three, etc.
I have asked for this repeatedly.
In your second post you showed nikah versus marriage, then talaq versus divorce. After that, all you have done is toss around "your a hypocrite" comments.
I'm just trying to understand what the EXACT process is. If you can't help me then leave me alone!
I'm beginning to believe you don't even know yourself, so you side-step it by trashing everything I say.
I care very much about what God says in every aspect of the Quran, so don't dare to call me a "rejector" again.
God holds all responsible for their innermost intentions!
peace