Divorce: State versus Islam
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What part of READ THE QURAN do you not understand?
I HAVE read the Quran, several times... cover to cover.
I'm sure you understood EVERYTHING you read in the Quran, EVERY time you opened it. nope
Thank you Al Araf for being incredible rude. No need to reply to my questions on this thread in the future! You must have plenty of other places to parade your "perfect" self.
dotty
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Salam farida. There are always three sides to a story. The side from the complainant, the side from the respondent, and the most important side the truth.
You give us a completely one sided story, the other party has not had an opportunity to present their side of the story, and on this basis you expect rational people to form conclusions? That is utter nonsense.
Your story does not hold up under examination. You allege a husband tricked a wife into signing divorce papers. Allah's hudood requires the husband to go through the proper steps, first the arbitration, then the talaq issued in stages with the proper time intervals. There is no tricking a grown adult into signing papers. If the person is so weak minded they cannot avoid a "trick" they have no business claiming they were tricked. The presumption is a person has to look out for their own interests, and if they fail to do so, there is nobody who can protect them from their own stupidity. This trick wont be their only problem. Next the allegation is he just disappeared, It is unreasonable to expect anyone to believe this rubbish, you would have us believe that this woman got married to a stranger off the street, whom she never knew, she did no investigation as to his background, friends, and family, and somehow he vanished into thin air. Nothing could be more implausible. Next you claim a sunni mosque says they can issue a divorce. Given that last statement any reasonable person would believe that is not a mosque, not a sunni mosque, it is some sort of racket run by charlatans. Read the Quran, do you see any authority for such a claim?
The whole story is riddled with completely implausible scenarios, most likely the construction of a person who is mentally ill. My take on the story is, we have a woman who has taken off on her own after 19 years of marriage, has concocted this story of being tricked to elicit sympathy, and is looking for someone to be taken in by her fanciful story.
The short answer is the mosque is utterly wrong. They can neither issue a talaq, nor have they ever had the authority under the hudood to ever issue a talaq.
Allah sends down the distinction.
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Salam dotty. You claim to have read the Quran from cover to cover more than once. After reading the Quran you still dont understand, or so you claim.
I am not in the least bit surprised. You may not know what the problem is, Allah knows what the problem is, I know what the problem is, why you dont understand.
It is not the fault of Allah, it is not my fault either. The fault is yours alone. You REFUSE to accept what you read in the Quran, you wont abandon your refusal to accept what you have read, you post in this forum looking for someone to validate your wrong headed ways. The fault lies in your opposition to what you have read, and what you have been repeatedly told is the hudood of Allah.
I saw a post where someone referenced a hebrew Get, here is a big surprise for you, Allah makes NO MISTAKES, he was right when he told Musa the same, he was right when he told Esa the same, he is right when he told Muhammad the same. The SAME thing repeated over centuries, never changing, Allah is ALWAYS right.
As long as you persist in your insistence to have things your way, instead of the way appointed by Allah, you can read the Quran a thousand times you will not understand.
Yes, you will have to make a choice, you are either a believer who limits yourself to nikah and talaq ONLY as appointed by Allah, or you are a denier, hypocrite, and rejecter, who denies Allahs limits, hypocritically pretends to be a believer, and rejects the limits established by Allah.
Allah is mighty wise.
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Salam farida. There are always three sides to a story. The side from the complainant, the side from the respondent, and the most important side the truth.
You give us a completely one sided story, the other party has not had an opportunity to present their side of the story, and on this basis you expect rational people to form conclusions? That is utter nonsense.
Your story does not hold up under examination. You allege a husband tricked a wife into signing divorce papers. Allah's hudood requires the husband to go through the proper steps, first the arbitration, then the talaq issued in stages with the proper time intervals. There is no tricking a grown adult into signing papers. If the person is so weak minded they cannot avoid a "trick" they have no business claiming they were tricked. The presumption is a person has to look out for their own interests, and if they fail to do so, there is nobody who can protect them from their own stupidity. This trick wont be their only problem. Next the allegation is he just disappeared, It is unreasonable to expect anyone to believe this rubbish, you would have us believe that this woman got married to a stranger off the street, whom she never knew, she did no investigation as to his background, friends, and family, and somehow he vanished into thin air. Nothing could be more implausible. Next you claim a sunni mosque says they can issue a divorce. Given that last statement any reasonable person would believe that is not a mosque, not a sunni mosque, it is some sort of racket run by charlatans. Read the Quran, do you see any authority for such a claim?
The whole story is riddled with completely implausible scenarios, most likely the construction of a person who is mentally ill. My take on the story is, we have a woman who has taken off on her own after 19 years of marriage, has concocted this story of being tricked to elicit sympathy, and is looking for someone to be taken in by her fanciful story.
The short answer is the mosque is utterly wrong. They can neither issue a talaq, nor have they ever had the authority under the hudood to ever issue a talaq.
Allah sends down the distinction.
My wife will not deign to reply to your harangue so I feel obliged to assert the truthfulness of the story that my wife very conscientiously told. You on the other hand have based your reply on thin air and assumptions. My wife and I knew the couple well and were shocked but not wholly surprised to learn what had happened. BTW it transpired that he had also been married to another woman that he also left without a proper divorce and went on to marry a 3rd woman. It's not important whether or not you believe what my wife wrote, by your demeanor I can tell that you're not a person I could respect or want any further dealings with.
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Salam farida's husband. You claim that you are entitled to assert the truthfulness of your wife's story. Your very response demonstrates the truth is NOT being told. Farida says "then he just disappeared" you on the other hand claim "BTW it transpired that he had also been married to another woman that he also left without a proper divorce and went on to marry a third woman"
If he disappeared you would have no information as to his marriages. however, you claim knowledge of his third marriage. At first glance it appears either you or your wife is not telling the truth, either he has disappeared and you know nothing, or he has not dissapeared and you know about him and his third marriage. These posts do not pass the smell test.
If the gentleman had married one woman, went on to marry another woman, then married a third woman, all three without giving any one of them a talaq, this gentleman is well within the hudood, he has a right accorded to him by Allah to have more than one wife. To speak ill of his conduct is gheebat, his conduct is that of a momin.
However, if one of his wives did not recieve a talaq, and has taken up with another man, then that wife is an adulterer under any definition of the word.
If my demeanor is that of a person you cannot respect, the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah, my answer to you is very simple. You have no respect to give anyone being daeef. My respect comes from Allah and Allah alone.
Allah exposes the truth.
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Salam farida's husband. You claim that you are entitled to assert the truthfulness of your wife's story. Your very response demonstrates the truth is NOT being told. Farida says "then he just disappeared" you on the other hand claim "BTW it transpired that he had also been married to another woman that he also left without a proper divorce and went on to marry a third woman"
If he disappeared you would have no information as to his marriages. however, you claim knowledge of his third marriage. At first glance it appears either you or your wife is not telling the truth, either he has disappeared and you know nothing, or he has not dissapeared and you know about him and his third marriage. These posts do not pass the smell test.
If the gentleman had married one woman, went on to marry another woman, then married a third woman, all three without giving any one of them a talaq, this gentleman is well within the hudood, he has a right accorded to him by Allah to have more than one wife. To speak ill of his conduct is gheebat, his conduct is that of a momin.
However, if one of his wives did not recieve a talaq, and has taken up with another man, then that wife is an adulterer under any definition of the word.
If my demeanor is that of a person you cannot respect, the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah, my answer to you is very simple. You have no respect to give anyone being daeef. My respect comes from Allah and Allah alone.
Allah exposes the truth.
You called him a momin without knowing the full, confidential information; what stone did you creep out from under?
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If the gentleman had married one woman, went on to marry another woman, then married a third woman, all three without giving any one of them a talaq, this gentleman is well within the hudood, he has a right accorded to him by Allah to have more than one wife. To speak ill of his conduct is gheebat, his conduct is that of a momin.
If my demeanor is that of a person you cannot respect, the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah, my answer to you is very simple. You have no respect to give anyone being daeef. My respect comes from Allah and Allah alone.
Allah exposes the truth.
Salaam
You called him within hudood, "a momin" who takes one wife after another and has not been maitaining his wives by giving them their financial and sexual rights and then you go on to talk about the demeanor of a person who sumbits to Allah. You did not believe me when I told you a short problem but you quickly qualified this person whom you don't know as a momin. By yourself you judge others so maybe he's your kind.of "momins".
farida
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Salaam Al Araf,
Stop your mud-slinging and give me the EXACT process of divorce IN QURAN. Step one, step two, step three, etc.
I have asked for this repeatedly.
In your second post you showed nikah versus marriage, then talaq versus divorce. After that, all you have done is toss around "your a hypocrite" comments.
I'm just trying to understand what the EXACT process is. If you can't help me then leave me alone!
I'm beginning to believe you don't even know yourself, so you side-step it by trashing everything I say.
I care very much about what God says in every aspect of the Quran, so don't dare to call me a "rejector" again.
God holds all responsible for their innermost intentions!
peace
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Salaam dotty. As I said previously there is no mention of marriage or divorce in the Quran. Asking me for the procedure for divorce is a waste of your time.
However, if you are asking me to outline the procedure for talaq in the Quran, I can give you a skeleton outline. This is not a comprehensive answer because every single talaq is different, with crossover issues, relating in large part to the discretionary decisions of the zawj, and their actions. This outline applies to two normal people and their nikah. May Allah forgive me if I make an error.
The first stage in talaq is for either zawj to request an arbitration, wherein either party appoints their chosen arbitrator from amongst their people, briefs the arbitrator on the issues, then the arbitrators meet and go through the issues and come to a decision as to the issues. The parties are advised to comply with the decision of the arbitrators. There must be a reasonable time frame in the execution of the arbitration so as to allow enough time for both parties to discharge their duties to Allah. The arbitration must be complete as the first step before a talaq can move to the second stage.
The second stage is the pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties begin to come to a decision as to the issues of mahr and maintenance. According to Allah these issues are to be decided by the parties themselves. There is a mandatory waiting period here again prescribed by Allah. The first pronouncement of talaq and the waiting period must be complete before moving on to the third stage.
The third stage is the second pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties abide by another mandatory waiting period. At the end of the second waiting period comes the fourth and final stage.
The fourth stage is the separation of the zawj and the completion of the requirements of the talaq and the wife is free to leave the husband.
This is a skeleton outline of the process, when going through this process a person must be careful that all the requirements are met. This outline is based on verses of the Quran.
Allah is the lawgiver.
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Asking me for the procedure for divorce is a waste of your time.
However, if you are asking me to outline the procedure for talaq in the Quran, I can give you a skeleton outline.
I speak english, so I use an english word. Thanks for the outline.
This outline is based on verses of the Quran.
Great! Now show the the chapters/verses where all this is defined in the Quran so I can verify it myself. Much thanks.
peace
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Salaam Al Araf,
Stop your mud-slinging and give me the EXACT process of divorce IN QURAN. Step one, step two, step three, etc.
I have asked for this repeatedly.
peace
Salaam Dotty
I can?t understand why do you expect an answer to your question from someone who has no authority whatsoever, he is not the lawgiver. God has given us the faculty of mind and the Quran and we are to use the guidance from the Quran and come to an answer accordingly, which you already understand.
From whom are you expecting an answer? From one who twists and turns things to the man?s advantage just because he?s a man himself and then declares he?s within hudood.
Now, to use our mind, hmm a female scenario, another version of A; we call her A+ here. She is well versed in the scripture from God but she uses those not to create balance but to manipulate it to her own advantage.
A+ is intelligent and she can speak several languages including a sign language.
One day she meets a man who is deaf and to compensate for the loss of his one sense Allah has compensated him with immense talent, due to which he?s become very rich and prosperous.
A+ meets this man and is able to communicate with him and manages to impress this man with her knowledge. So one of them proposes and the other accepts and, after giving maher, they both enter into nikkah.
After this woman twists and turns her obligations and makes life hell for the man; for example the man says do not put too much salt in the food and she refrains from too much salt but instead adds too much chillies in the food and when he says do not put too much chillies in the food she obeys him, but instead puts too much spices in his food.
The man gets very annoyed and calls arbitrators form both sides and explains how she has been making life difficult for him and does not behave as expected but A+ turns around and says I?m well within hudood, as I never disobeyed my husband.
The man could not convince the arbitrators how she has been manipulating the situation so he told her I have done my bit of arbitrations, now I am going to divorce you.
A+ laughs at him and says ha ha you cannot divorce me as you cannot utter words Talaq from your mouth.God holds all responsible for their innermost intentions!
2225 Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the INTENTION in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
2227 But if their INTENTION is firm for divorce, Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
I believe you can reach an answer to the situation with your friend, but here the woman involved has been knowingly deceived and the man deliberately avoided giving her a divorce. He apparently relocated to Europe as part of his employment. She is around 58 so she does not care but his second wife who is young and needs a man has been trying to reach him but he just disappeared somewhere in Europe. Now she wants to get a divorce through a Sunni mosque.
peace -
Salaam farida,
I can?t understand why do you expect an answer to your question from someone who has no authority whatsoever, he is not the lawgiver. God has given us the faculty of mind and the Quran and we are to use the guidance from the Quran and come to an answer accordingly, which you already understand.
Very true what you say here... I was trying to get to my point of what the Quran "actually" states. In no way was I trying to imply that anyone has the authority besides GOD. Sometimes, when I am doing a word search in Quran I am not sure I am finding all that pertains to the topic I am trying to understand. Very possibly, someone else may have a better way of finding all the related verses.
Also, it's always a good reminder to use our minds and follow the guidance in the Quran... thanks for that. However, if God has given one the ability to help another in finding the "correct" guidance, then what is the harm? If this was the case, then this forum would have no basis. All I am concerned about is knowing the "truth", no matter what it is. If it is God's will for anyone to understand something then God will do that in whatever way God chooses. Don't you think? I do know that we are to verify everything for ourselves, so it doesn't matter how Al Araf (or anyone else) responds to my question... I will still verify it for myself and ask God to guide me on the right path.
From whom are you expecting an answer? From one who twists and turns things to the man?s advantage just because he?s a man himself and then declares he?s within hudood.
I'm still waiting for a response with Quranic evidence, so don't worry.
I believe you can reach an answer to the situation with your friend, but here the woman involved has been knowingly deceived and the man deliberately avoided giving her a divorce. He apparently relocated to Europe as part of his employment. She is around 58 so she does not care but his second wife who is young and needs a man has been trying to reach him but he just disappeared somewhere in Europe. Now she wants to get a divorce through a Sunni mosque.
Deception is everywhere, unfortunately. I do not believe for a minute that God only granted the right of divorce to men. (Again, I am still waiting for Quranic evidence to show otherwise). Inshallah, this woman will find the way to end this fraud.
Peace
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Salaam farida,
Also, it's always a good reminder to use our minds and follow the guidance in the Quran... thanks for that. However, if God has given one the ability to help another in finding the "correct" guidance, then what is the harm? If this was the case, then this forum would have no basis. All I am concerned about is knowing the "truth", no matter what it is. If it is God's will for anyone to understand something then God will do that in whatever way God chooses. Don't you think? I do know that we are to verify everything for ourselves, so it doesn't matter how Al Araf (or anyone else) responds to my question... I will still verify it for myself and ask God to guide me on the right path.
Peace
Salaam dotty,
handshake
Very possibly, someone else may have a better way of finding all the related verses....I'm still waiting for a response with Quranic evidence, so don't worry.
As you said,this is the reason we all contribute to discussions on this forum, so we can gain knowledge. I gave you a senerio of A+ to illustrate a narrow minded approach of someone like A_A. To him a deaf person will not be even a Muslim because he can not recite words of Allah; its people like him who discriminate, not God. And I believe that if it was not for people like A-A, who made divorce such a difficult process, we would not have people who would resort to common law marriages. The way he has portrayed the rights of a wife it would seem a slave girl is more free than a wife.
Deception is everywhere, unfortunately. I do not believe for a minute that God only granted the right of divorce to men. (Again, I am still waiting for Quranic evidence to show otherwise). Inshallah, this woman will find the way to end this fraud.
With a shrinking world this is becoming very common that man and women are moving in different parts of the world and there are many women who have been left hanging in the middle, because their husbands emigrated for jobs, and then decided to settle with a new wife. For that reason I raised this question, as I wanted to know how we should deal with such a senerio and, like you, I too expected an enlightened answer.
peace
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I don?t know if the following link can help to solve this matter
http//my.opera.com/Quran/blog/index.dml/tag/Discuss%20Talaq%20(Divorce)
Thanks very much for that afridi.
Please note, if anyone has trouble finding this... type "discuss talaq" or "discuss divorce" in the search box to find it.
Peace
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Salaam dotty. As I said previously there is no mention of marriage or divorce in the Quran. Asking me for the procedure for divorce is a waste of your time.
However, if you are asking me to outline the procedure for talaq in the Quran, I can give you a skeleton outline. This is not a comprehensive answer because every single talaq is different, with crossover issues, relating in large part to the discretionary decisions of the zawj, and their actions. This outline applies to two normal people and their nikah. May Allah forgive me if I make an error.
The first stage in talaq is for either zawj to request an arbitration, wherein either party appoints their chosen arbitrator from amongst their people, briefs the arbitrator on the issues, then the arbitrators meet and go through the issues and come to a decision as to the issues. The parties are advised to comply with the decision of the arbitrators. There must be a reasonable time frame in the execution of the arbitration so as to allow enough time for both parties to discharge their duties to Allah. The arbitration must be complete as the first step before a talaq can move to the second stage.
The second stage is the pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties begin to come to a decision as to the issues of mahr and maintenance. According to Allah these issues are to be decided by the parties themselves. There is a mandatory waiting period here again prescribed by Allah. The first pronouncement of talaq and the waiting period must be complete before moving on to the third stage.
The third stage is the second pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties abide by another mandatory waiting period. At the end of the second waiting period comes the fourth and final stage.
The fourth stage is the separation of the zawj and the completion of the requirements of the talaq and the wife is free to leave the husband.
This is a skeleton outline of the process, when going through this process a person must be careful that all the requirements are met. This outline is based on verses of the Quran.
Al... It has been a number of days since I requested Quran evidence to this claim. You were very quick to reply when you had your opinion, but stopped when I asked for specific verses in the Quran to prove your "outline". Still waiting...
Peace
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Salam dotty. Allah gave you the Quran as well. Why have you not put in the effort to determine what I convey to you it true or not? What justification have you got for shirking your duty to read the Quran? I have never claimed this is my opinion, and for you to make such a claim in order to shirk your duty is disingenuous.
Regarding the first arbitration stage Allah says in sura Al Nisa 435 And If you fear a breach between them then appoint an arbiter from his people and an arbiter from her people if they desire peace Allah will effect harmony between them for Allah is the one who knows and is aware.
Regarding the second talaq pronouncement stage Allah says in Al Baqarah 2229 Talaq them twice keep them in knowledge or set them free in a good way it is not permitted to take back what you have given them except when they fear they are unable to stay within the hudood of Allah there is no blame on them if she gives up something to be set free these are the hudood of Allah exceed them not whoever exceeds these limits they are wrongdoers.
Regarding the third talaq pronouncement stage and fourth separation stage Allah says in Al Baqarah 2231 If you talaq women and they fulfill their term then keep them in knowledge or set them free in knowledge do not take them back to harm them if anyone does that they harm their nafs do not take the ayat of Allah in jest speak of the favor of Allah on you and he sent on you the book and the commandments as instruction to you as instruction of Allah and Allah knows of all knowledge.
Regarding the term appointed by Allah between the stages Allah says in Al Baqarah 2228 Those talaq'ed shall wait themselves three recitings it is not permitted to hide the creation of Allah in their womb if they have faith in Allah and the last day and the first right if they decide upon reconciliation and they similar upon them as they know their husbands have a degree upon them Allah is cherished wise.
The word talaq has an Aramaic root, and in Aramaic talaq means to split.
Allah has all knowledge.
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Salam dotty. Allah gave you the Quran as well. Why have you not put in the effort to determine what I convey to you it true or not? What justification have you got for shirking your duty to read the Quran? I have never claimed this is my opinion, and for you to make such a claim in order to shirk your duty is disingenuous.
Call it what you want, but I asked for proof because you said it must be done verbally or it is not valid.
Regarding the first arbitration stage Allah says in sura Al Nisa 435 And If you fear a breach between them then appoint an arbiter from his people and an arbiter from her people if they desire peace Allah will effect harmony between them for Allah is the one who knows and is aware.
How is this different from a husband and wife having seperate attorneys in a state divorce? The attorneys go back and forth until an agreement is reached between the two parties.
Regarding the second talaq pronouncement stage Allah says in Al Baqarah 2229 Talaq them twice keep them in knowledge or set them free in a good way it is not permitted to take back what you have given them except when they fear they are unable to stay within the hudood of Allah there is no blame on them if she gives up something to be set free these are the hudood of Allah exceed them not whoever exceeds these limits they are wrongdoers.
I don't see anything about a verbal announcement here.
Regarding the third talaq pronouncement stage and fourth separation stage Allah says in Al Baqarah 2231 If you talaq women and they fulfill their term then keep them in knowledge or set them free in knowledge do not take them back to harm them if anyone does that they harm their nafs do not take the ayat of Allah in jest speak of the favor of Allah on you and he sent on you the book and the commandments as instruction to you as instruction of Allah and Allah knows of all knowledge.
I don't see anything about a verbal announcement here.
Regarding the term appointed by Allah between the stages Allah says in Al Baqarah 2228 Those talaq'ed shall wait themselves three recitings it is not permitted to hide the creation of Allah in their womb if they have faith in Allah and the last day and the first right if they decide upon reconciliation and they similar upon them as they know their husbands have a degree upon them Allah is cherished wise.
In my state there is a minimum waiting period of 4 months and the wife is asked specifically if she is pregnant before a divorce can be granted.
I know you will reply with slamming remarks, but there is nothing here that proves to me a state divorce is not valid, which of course, is the reason behind my asking you for Quran evidence in the first place.
Peace
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Salam dotty. Your claims are based in your forging of lies against Allah, and do not exist in the Quran.
There is an Arabic word for attorney, al mahamee, it is not in those verses, therefore you forge a lie against Allah to claim attorneys are permissible. There is no authority for a state to issue a talaq in the Quran, therefore you forge a lie against Allah when you claim a state can issue a talaq. None of the verses say kataba talaq, which would be make a writing of talaq, in the absence of a writing, there is only one other way, speaking the talaq. Therefore you forge a lie against Allah when you claim the talaq is not spoken.
The mathala of Ibraheem is a king cannot take away a wife, whether the state reposes judicial authority in a king or a judge, the mathala is clear, they have no authority to take a wife from her husband. The issue of force in non existent in the mathala of Ibraheem.
State divorces issued under the authority of a judge are outside the hudood not permitted for momins and impermissible bida or innovation. Nothing, king, judge, or dotty can set aside the authority Allah has given the husband.
My statements have authority from the Quran. Allah separates the truth from falsehood.