quick question about desires
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which verse?
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2145 And if you come to those who have been given the Scripture with every sign they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
548 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth.
hmm, after reading further i see that in the context this 'following desires' means something different from what i initially thought, guess i shouldn't have started this topic right away, sorry, my bad
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Arnold, here the verses he/she is referring to
4135
3826
533
1828
2016
2543
2850
4523
6150
4518
656, 116
2120, 145
3029
etc.Studying the verses where the following HaWaY is critcized and their contexts, it is clear that HaWaY is not harmless desires but they are desires, whims, pretentions or wishful thinking that contradicts knowledge and reality.
For instance, in order the blind themselves and others to the numerical structure of the Quran, many Turkish mullahs. A recent example the former head of Turkish religious affairs did it infront of millions during a live debate against me on the TV. He claimed that Basmala did not have 19 letters; thus, he followed his wishful thinking and made up two extra letters through his imaginations.
Another example is the Pope. He pretends that he represents Jesus and God. Thus, he follows his HaWaY and unjustifiably assumes the right to forgive people in the name of God.
For instance,
Peace,
Edip -
I believe the word in question is
"ahwaa"
I found the root after a little research. From PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
ha-Waw-Ya = to fall steep as a bird to its prey, rev, perish, pull down, destroy, disappear, yearn, fancy, beguile, infatuate, be blown, inspire with low passion, desires/fancies.
hawa vb. (1)
perf. act. 2081, 531
impf. act. 2231
hawiya vb. (1) impf. act. 287, 570, 1437, 5323
hawa n.m. (pl. ahwa) 2120, 2145, 4135, 548, 549, 577, 656, 6119, 6150, 7176, 1337, 1828, 2016, 2371, 2543, 2850, 3029, 3826, 4215, 4518, 4523, 4714, 4716, 533, 543, 7940
hawa n.m. 1443
hawiyah n. 1019
ahwa vb. (4) perf. act. 5353
istahwa vb. (10) perf. act. 671Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 300
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000300.pdfIt likely means "baseless desires / whims / fancies", i.e. not based on any sound reasoning/evidence.
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2145 And if you come to those who have been given the Scripture with every sign they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
548 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth.
hmm, after reading further i see that in the context this 'following desires' means something different from what i initially thought, guess i shouldn't have started this topic right away, sorry, my bad
Salaam,
Thank you for starting this thread, as this subject needs to be explored.
There are two categories that should be taken into account; one is need the other is desire. If we separate these two we would notice that most of the time we are following our desires, regardless of our needs. Take for example; one man buys a pair of shoes in the USA and another person buy?s shoes in the poorest slums of India . Then work out who actually needed the shoes and who was following his desire to satisfy his nafs. I would say that almost 99.99 % in the USA would be counted with those who follow their desire.
From what I understand desire is to satisfay Nafs whereas need is an essential requirement of Nafs. Now please read the above surah again and see if you understand what is actully a desire.Salaam Edip Yuksel
....they are desires, whims, pretentions or wishful thinking that contradicts knowledge and reality.
Ask; is there a need to follow any hadith or code19 when we our have needs fulfilled by the guidance from God? If one does not find guidance in the Qur?an and one?s self is refusing to submit to that guidance then one would resort to code 19 or hadith.
Ok there may be or may not be a code 19, but that should not be the basis of our belief in the Qur?an; rather it should be seen as one of many signs from God. Your valuable time is spent in advocating the code 19 arguments rather than ponder the many signs of God.peace
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I am not sure about the question of need and desire
On he one hand, where does need stop? Do we need to take a shower every day? How often do we need that, i mean need. When are we following our desires and wasting water and when not?
What about food? Do we really need to eat some dessert?
What today is considered a need, at least in certain environments, countries, social classes, etc. wasn't such need at other times, it was luxury.
Do we really need a liver transplant. Of course we do if mantaining life is considered an overriding motive, but at any price?
I think that the injonctions must be addressing those times when we look for arguments in favour and none against when some desire of us is involved, instead of looking or all arguments and then judge equitably regardless of our desires. That takes conscious action and discipline.
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Salaam Farida,
I would say that almost 99.99 % in the USA would be counted with those who follow their desire.
I definately see your point. In the future, however, you might want to shy away from hyperbole. It weakens your argument.
US-bashing is understandable, and IMHO, well-deserved. As a US citizen who doesn't support the mainstream paradigm for a variety of reasons, I feel it's my duty to be as critical of the US as often as possible, and I relish every opportunity to do so. But in order for me to get my point across to people who have fallen prey to lies of the "American Dream" and "American Democracy", I feel it's of the utmost importance for me to express myself as critically and as logically as possible. By doing so, I get my feelings out about the US government and US mainstream culture while (hopefully) getting those who have been brainwashed to understand that they're believing in nothing but lies.
And on another note, there are other countries on the planet striving to be just as extravagent as the US, even if they're third world countries or non-G8s. While I lived abroad, I was amazed and sometimes horrified by the exploitation I saw at the hands of middle/upper-class locals and their lower-class counter parts - whether they were oppressing the local community or an immigrant community residing in their country. There are things going on in other countries that, sad but true, don't happen in the US anymore (and trust me, sister, I had the most bitter taste in my mouth having to swallow this truth and eat my words about certain absolutes I was only willing to attribute to the US). As a non-white American who, while living abroad, was often mistaken as a local or someone from X country's immigrant community, I had a firsthand taste of some of the crap that the privileged in certain countries go out of their way to throw at their masses with glee, much of which was crap that was last experienced by my great-grandparents, if not their parents.
My point is, I like what you said, and I hope to hear more of it. We need people like you to help others see what the US government and mainstream culture stand for. But real statistics are best if you're going to bash an ideology.
Thanks for listening.
Ma'salaama,
T. -
Salaam,
Thank you for starting this thread, as this subject needs to be explored.
There are two categories that should be taken into account; one is need the other is desire. If we separate these two we would notice that most of the time we are following our desires, regardless of our needs. Take for example; one man buys a pair of shoes in the USA and another person buy?s shoes in the poorest slums of India . Then work out who actually needed the shoes and who was following his desire to satisfy his nafs. I would say that almost 99.99 % in the USA would be counted with those who follow their desire.
From what I understand desire is to satisfay Nafs whereas need is an essential requirement of Nafs. Now please read the above surah again and see if you understand what is actully a desire.Salaam Edip Yuksel Ask; is there a need to follow any hadith or code19 when we our have needs fulfilled by the guidance from God? If one does not find guidance in the Qur?an and one?s self is refusing to submit to that guidance then one would resort to code 19 or hadith.
Ok there may be or may not be a code 19, but that should not be the basis of our belief in the Qur?an; rather it should be seen as one of many signs from God. Your valuable time is spent in advocating the code 19 arguments rather than ponder the many signs of God.peace
Peace all
With respect to your example on shoes Farida, can't we understand the want or desire to by a new pair of shoes when we already have a pair and don't desperately need one as spending of God's provisions?
I think in context of the Quran giving way to our desires is only when our desires are CLEARLY wrong (for whatever reason) thus we have only taken into account our desires and refused to submit to God when following this wrong desire.
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I am not sure about the question of need and desire
On he one hand, where does need stop? Do we need to take a shower every day? How often do we need that, i mean need. When are we following our desires and wasting water and when not?
I think that the injonctions must be addressing those times when we look for arguments in favour and none against when some desire of us is involved, instead of looking or all arguments and then judge equitably regardless of our desires. That takes conscious action and discipline.
Salaam,
IMHO that is what one must understand when does a need turn into a want.
What about food? Do we really need to eat some dessert?
Eating sugar is part of essentil nutrients so, yes one must eat food including sugars, but when you make it into dessert you are using the faculity of your mind to turn sugar into food wihich is part of an essential diet. It's using our intellegence to provide variety as we humans get bored of eating the same food even its is Manna or Salwa.
What today is considered a need, at least in certain environments, countries, social classes, etc. wasn't such need at other times, it was luxury.
Yes and stlll is luxury(lust) for some.
Do we really need a liver transplant. Of course we do if mantaining life is considered an overriding motive, but at any price?
What is needed is to treat liver when it needs treatment, once it's failed or it's gone and now takes over the desire to prolong life and for some at any cost.
Salaam & regard
PSPlease note the term that we are discussing in this thread is "ahwaa"
otherwise many other words, translated desire, are used in the Qur'an. -
Salaam Farida,
I definately see your point. In the future, however, you might want to shy away from hyperbole. It weakens your argument.
US-bashing is understandable, and IMHO, well-deserved. As a US citizen who doesn't support the mainstream paradigm for a variety of reasons, I feel it's my duty to be as critical of the US as often as possible, and I relish every opportunity to do so. But in order for me to get my point across to people who have fallen prey to lies of the "American Dream" and "American Democracy", I feel it's of the utmost importance for me to express myself as critically and as logically as possible. By doing so, I get my feelings out about the US government and US mainstream culture while (hopefully) getting those who have been brainwashed to understand that they're believing in nothing but lies.
And on another note, there are other countries on the planet striving to be just as extravagent as the US, even if they're third world countries or non-G8s. While I lived abroad, I was amazed and sometimes horrified by the exploitation I saw at the hands of middle/upper-class locals and their lower-class counter parts - whether they were oppressing the local community or an immigrant community residing in their country. There are things going on in other countries that, sad but true, don't happen in the US anymore (and trust me, sister, I had the most bitter taste in my mouth having to swallow this truth and eat my words about certain absolutes I was only willing to attribute to the US). As a non-white American who, while living abroad, was often mistaken as a local or someone from X country's immigrant community, I had a firsthand taste of some of the crap that the privileged in certain countries go out of their way to throw at their masses with glee, much of which was crap that was last experienced by my great-grandparents, if not their parents.
My point is, I like what you said, and I hope to hear more of it. We need people like you to help others see what the US government and mainstream culture stand for. But real statistics are best if you're going to bash an ideology.
Thanks for listening.
Ma'salaama,
T.Salaam
I am not sure why you saw my arguments as US bashing; this was nothing to do with picking on the USA, although you will find me frequently bashing the US on many another occasion. To make this discussion simple and understandable I used the example of US as this is the most advanced country in the world. I compared this to the poorest slums in India where, people?s basic need of food is not met and where some have to hunt and eat Rats.
I did not contrast US with the rich side of India or Pakistan, who on the other hand are responsible for hyping the price of gold during wedding season.
I am simply discussing need and want.
Of course US leads and others follow, whether in boom or gloom. For instance if the US goes into recession so will the rest of the world as US is the top consumer of all the goods in the world and, once they decrease their consumption many markets will collapse. Now for you especially I would do bit of US bashing
shaitan can create false desires (lust) in youSalaam & regards
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Peace all
With respect to your example on shoes Farida, can't we understand the want or desire to by a new pair of shoes when we already have a pair and don't desperately need one as spending of God's provisions?
Salaam
With all due respect many give this excuse for their extravagance.
I think we need to start a fresh thread to understand what is meant by Spending of Gods Provisions. To me this a vast subject and could include lots of things, from helping the needy to sharing recipies.
peace -
I am not sure why you saw my arguments as US bashing
You said 99.99% of the US fall prey to ahwaa. My point was your exaggerated statistic.
this was nothing to do with picking on the USA
I read what you wrote, and was quite frank about what I thought of people "picking" on the US. I wasn't at all offended by your opinion on materialism in mainstream US culture. I actually applauded your perspective.
I did not contrast US with the rich side of India or Pakistan
No, you didn't; but 99.99% of the US population?
Now for you especially I would do bit of US bashing
Um, what?
Ma'salaama,
T. -
Need defines what we MUST have other wise we cease to exist. A shortlist of what we NEED to exist is the God.
We are surrounded by things that comfort us, excessive things, baggage. We live with them in consistency, such that if we are deprived from them, we suffer. We think we need those things but no, we desire them to the point we deceive ourselves into necessity. That's not to say we must not acquire, and increase wealth or happiness, but at the same time if we are deprived of certain things even tremendous things such as a loved ones, a home, livelihood, we can survive without, because of God. It is God who created all the things we desire, want and need. Therefore the focus should really be on God. It is not the water we NEED to survive, it is God who put the water there in the first place.
We are urged to strive to get ourselves in a comfortable position and to be successful but at the same time striving to be with God above all else - that is true success, because He is the defining source. All else is illusion compared. God urges us to understand the water we need to survive is from Him, the food, the partners we desire to marry, the sun that gives us day to frolic, trade and seek bounty and the night to rest and be at peace all come from Him. Necessity always leads back to God. Whereas God is not in need of his creatures.
Know that the life of the world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children; as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow, then it becometh straw. And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment, and (also) forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure, whereas the life of the world is but matter of illusion.
5720So to conclude desires should be followed as long as they are within the limits set within the COMPLETE Recitation. But remberance should always be practiced when we strive for what we desire. Because it is God who put those things we desire on Earth in the first place. If one is in remembrance of God in his desires, he will not desire things that are unlawful e.g. casual sex, adultery, usury, twisting the words of the Qur'an or any other scripture, hoarding money, stealing, murdering... He will desire what is wholesome, progressive and lawful for himself that will benefit him in the Hereafter.
Whoso desireth the harvest of the Hereafter, We give him increase in its harvest. And whoso desireth the harvest of the world, We give him thereof, and he hath no portion in the Hereafter.
4220Take what you will from those two ayats.
Peace
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You said 99.99% of the US fall prey to ahwaa. My point was your exaggerated statistic.
I read what you wrote, and was quite frank about what I thought of people "picking" on the US. I wasn't at all offended by your opinion on materialism in mainstream US culture. I actually applauded your perspective.
No, you didn't; but 99.99% of the US population?
Had I said 100% than you could call it exaggeration. You have your estimate and I mine none of us have done a thorough poll on it so this is honestly my opinion that the standard of living in the US is so high that only 00.01% may not have their needs met. There is of course poverty in the US but compared to the truly poor their very poor are still "rich".
Yes we are discussing ahwaa but that does not mean every want/desire would be Ahwaa. In many example it would be a broader general meaning which should further be assessed if it comes under ahwaa. My understanding of "ahwaa" is the desire linked with ego/self/nafs.Um, what?
That is what I call bashing, equating the USA with Satan. By the way I was just laugh
Salaam & regards -
Need defines what we MUST have other wise we cease to exist. A shortlist of what we NEED to exist is the God.
We are surrounded by things that comfort us, excessive things, baggage. We live with them in consistency, such that if we are deprived from them, we suffer. We think we need those things but no, we desire them to the point we deceive ourselves into necessity. That's not to say we must not acquire, and increase wealth or happiness, but at the same time if we are deprived of certain things even tremendous things such as a loved ones, a home, livelihood, we can survive without, because of God. It is God who created all the things we desire, want and need. Therefore the focus should really be on God. It is not the water we NEED to survive, it is God who put the water there in the first place.
We are urged to strive to get ourselves in a comfortable position and to be successful but at the same time striving to be with God above all else - that is true success, because He is the defining source. All else is illusion compared. God urges us to understand the water we need to survive is from Him, the food, the partners we desire to marry, the sun that gives us day to frolic, trade and seek bounty and the night to rest and be at peace all come from Him. Necessity always leads back to God. Whereas God is not in need of his creatures.
Know that the life of the world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you, and rivalry in respect of wealth and children; as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow, then it becometh straw. And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment, and (also) forgiveness from Allah and His good pleasure, whereas the life of the world is but matter of illusion.
5720So to conclude desires should be followed as long as they are within the limits set within the COMPLETE Recitation. But remberance should always be practiced when we strive for what we desire. Because it is God who put those things we desire on Earth in the first place. If one is in remembrance of God in his desires, he will not desire things that are unlawful e.g. casual sex, adultery, usury, twisting the words of the Qur'an or any other scripture, hoarding money, stealing, murdering... He will desire what is wholesome, progressive and lawful for himself that will benefit him in the Hereafter.
Whoso desireth the harvest of the Hereafter, We give him increase in its harvest. And whoso desireth the harvest of the world, We give him thereof, and he hath no portion in the Hereafter.
4220Take what you will from those two ayats.
Peace
Salaam Soof
You are right I remember reading in the Quran that God has no need of us; its we who need God, but I can not remember which surah or ayah, As for ahwaa this perticular term is used specifically in some surah and in others a different arabic word is used for desire. My Arabic is not good, (though I can understand the Quran recitation,) so I can only give my understanding of ahwaa, and hope to gain more from others who have better command of Arabic.
So need help from others for that.Best regards
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You said 99.99% of the US fall prey to ahwaa. My point was your exaggerated statistic.
I read what you wrote, and was quite frank about what I thought of people "picking" on the US. I wasn't at all offended by your opinion on materialism in mainstream US culture. I actually applauded your perspective.
No, you didn't; but 99.99% of the US population?
Um, what?
Ma'salaama,
T.Salaam T
I just remembered the movie 2the Devil?s Advocate" and wondered if you have seen it, That movies drew attention to desires/ahwaa and there is a lot of US bashing in it. wow
Highly Recommended -
peace to all
thank you for all the replies, this desire thing is much clearer to me then before.
but another thing came to my mind,http//free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman2.htm
ok so i read this article and started thinking againthis part is really interesting to me
'We can even test our understanding with any such "symptom", past or present. For example, sectarians today fantasize that the prophet can intercede on their behalf and can control who goes to heaven. Thus, one may think that they idolize the prophet. However, upon closer examination of the root cause of this symptom, one can see that they are in fact not idolizing the real prophet but they are idolizing an imagined prophet, i.e. a fantasy. So when they implore this fantasized prophet they are in fact serving nothing more than a fantasy. Another example is Jesus. What Christians actually idolize and serve is not Jesus but in fact is an imagined Jesus, i.e. a fantasy. In fact, you can test this understanding by applying it to all such symptoms of setting partners with The God and you would always get to the same fundamental root cause. It is also a fact that in all such tests, you would never get to the root cause as being reptilians/snakes as the Bible contends or ghosts as sectarian mythology contends.'the thing is, i fantasize a lot about this one girl, i saw her once and... "fell in love" with her, actually i fell in love in what i imagined her to be like, my image of her, and that imagination/fantasy grew with years. so i started worrying about, am i idolizing my fantasy?
the bad thing is i do spend quite a lot of time fantasizing about her, yet i am fully aware that the actual person is nothing like the one in my head, but i still hang on to the fantasy for some reason. is that called idolizing? and how can i stop?
i mean i don't want to idolize her or the fantasy, i just want to meet her, get to know her, see what she is like in reality, but everytime i see her i'm speachless, she takes my breath away... literally, it's hard to say anything. so i don't say a thing and later regret it and return to fantasizing. that worries me now, is that idolizing? am i idolizing/serving my fantasies/desires?
