"Obey God and obey the messenger" verse
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II Peter 3
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Eyewitnesses to Jesus considered Paul's work scripture from GOD.
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one of the things you get with sectarian Muslims is this verse about obeying God and obeying the messenger. They say that this verse means that there is an obligation given to obey something alongside the Koran. Then they say the hadiths is whats intended by that verse. However the Koran uses obedience of the prophets on many prophets yet its only Muhammad who those sects have produced hadiths and sunnah of. Lets look at Koran
Al-Shuara(the poets) Chapter105 The people of Noah rejected the apostles.
106 Behold, their brother Noah said to them "Will ye not fear (Allah)?
107 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust
108 "So fear Allah, and obey me.
109 "No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds
110 "So fear Allah, and obey me."
123 The 'Ad (people) rejected the apostles.
124 Behold, their brother Hud said to them "Will ye not fear (Allah)?
125 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust
126 "So fear Allah and obey me.
127 "No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.
128 "Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves?
129 "And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?
130 "And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?
131 "Now fear Allah, and obey me.
141 The Thamud (people) rejected the apostles.
142 Behold, their brother Salih said to them "Will you not fear (Allah)?
143 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.
144 "So fear Allah, and obey me.
145 "No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.
146 "Will ye be left secure, in (the enjoyment of) all that ye have here?-
147 "Gardens and Springs,
148 "And corn-fields and date-palms with spathes near breaking (with the weight of fruit)?
149 "And ye carve houses out of (rocky) mountains with great skill.
150 "But fear Allah and obey me;
160 The people of Lut rejected the apostles.
161 Behold, their brother Lut said to them "Will ye not fear (Allah)?
162 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.
163 "So fear Allah and obey me.
176 The Companions of the Wood rejected the apostles.
177 Behold, Shu'aib said to them "Will ye not fear (Allah)?
178 "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.
179 "So fear Allah and obey me.
Should we now expect all kinds of hadiths from these prophets so we can obey them also rotfl
Salaam
What is the difference between hadiths and sunnah?
peace -
Salam samia. You state "seal authenticates what was written before it is stamped on the document. After the seal is broken (= death of the prophet) any addition to the document is illegal (no more prophets can be authenticated). Therefore he is the last prophet/messenger. He is not just an approved prophet, he is an authenticating/approving one"
None of this has any authority from the Allah. The Allah does not state a seal authenticates. Allah does not state the seal is broken. Allah does not state the death of the prophet is a broken seal. Allah does not say he is the last prophet. Allah does not say he is not just an approved prophet. Allah does not say he is authenticated. Allah does not say he is an approving one.
I count no less than eight instances of your addition to the Quran. In eight instances you have associated yourself with Allah and made major changes to the Quran. Before you make any additions to the Quran please provide us an authority from Allah that you are permitted to make these additions to the Quran.
Allah provides the discrimination.
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Salam samia. You state "seal authenticates what was written before it is stamped on the document. After the seal is broken (= death of the prophet) any addition to the document is illegal (no more prophets can be authenticated). Therefore he is the last prophet/messenger. He is not just an approved prophet, he is an authenticating/approving one"
None of this has any authority from the Allah. The Allah does not state a seal authenticates. Allah does not state the seal is broken. Allah does not state the death of the prophet is a broken seal. Allah does not say he is the last prophet. Allah does not say he is not just an approved prophet. Allah does not say he is authenticated. Allah does not say he is an approving one.
I count no less than eight instances of your addition to the Quran. In eight instances you have associated yourself with Allah and made major changes to the Quran. Before you make any additions to the Quran please provide us an authority from Allah that you are permitted to make these additions to the Quran.
Allah provides the discrimination.
Did I say Allah says so and so? Did I even mention Allah?
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Salaam
What is the difference between hadiths and sunnah?
peaceThats a tough question. I think its all about how reliable is the historic information. In the absence of archeological discoveries and ancient documents, the only way is to rely on logical arguments.
Schacht talked about the "living Sunnah", but he did not elaborate what it is. He defined the Sunnah as the accepted doctrine of the community. And this Sunnah was alive, so it changed according to time. The traditionalist rejected that and insisted that Sunnah should be rooted with the prophet and only the prophet. Al Shafi broke the Sunnah to different categories. There was the known Sunnah that everybody knew(5 salat, haj, halals and harams etc) and the specialized Sunnah that comes to us through a report(hadiths). However some people here have questioned the general Sunnah as being authentic. They pointed out that there was pagan and Zoroastrian influence during the Ummayads and this became the established practices that Shafi was refering to. I think in the absence of historic information that is reliable, the only way you can define the Sunnah is all subjective.
Anyways lets look at how some orientalist looked at it.
Schacht asserts that hadiths, particularly from Muhammad, did not form, together with the Qur'an, the original bases of Islamic law and jurisprudence as is traditionally assumed. Rather, hadiths were an innovation begun after some of the legal foundation had already been built. "The ancient schools of law shared the old concept of sunna or ?living tradition? as the ideal practice of the community, expressed in the accepted doctrine of the school." And this ideal practice was embodied in various forms, but certainly not exclusively in the hadiths from the Prophet. Schacht argues that it was not until al-Shafi
i that ?sunna? was exclusively identified with the contents of hadiths from the Prophet to which he gave, not for the first time, but for the first time consistently, overriding authority. Al-Shafii argued that even a single, isolated hadith going back to Muhammad, assuming its isnad is not suspect, takes precedence over the opinions and arguments of any and all Companions, Successors, and later authorities. Schacht notes thatTwo generations before Shafi
i reference to traditions from Companions and Successors was the rule, to traditions from the Prophet himself the exception, and it was left to Shafii to make the exception the principle. We shall have to conclude that, generally and broadly speaking, traditions from Companions and Successors are earlier than those from the Prophet.Based on these conclusions, Schacht offers the following schema of the growth of legal hadiths. The ancient schools of law had a ?living tradition? (sunna) which was largely based on individual reasoning (ra'y). Later this sunna came to be associated with and attributed to the earlier generations of the Successors and Companions. Later still, hadiths with isnads extending back to Muhammad came into circulation by traditionists towards the middle of the second century. Finally, the efforts of al-Shafi`i and other traditionists secured for these hadiths from the Prophet supreme authority.
Goldziher maintains that, while reliance on the sunna to regulate the empire was favoured, there was still in these early years of Islam insufficient material going back to Muhammad himself. Scholars sought to fill the gaps left by the Qur'an and the sunna with material from other sources. Some borrowed from Roman law. Others attempted to fill these lacunae with their own opinions (ra'y). This latter option came under a concerted attack by those who believed that all legal and ethical questions (not addressed by the Qur'an) must be referred back to the Prophet himself, that is, must be rooted in hadiths.These supporters of hadiths (ahl al-hadith) were extremely successful in establishing hadiths as a primary source of law and in discrediting ra'y. But in many ways it was a Pyrrhic victory. The various legal madhhabs were loath to sacrifice their doctrines and so they found it more expedient to fabricate hadiths or adapt existing hadiths in their support. Even the advocates of ra'y were eventually persuaded or cajoled into accepting the authority of hadiths and so they too "found" hadiths which substantiated their doctrines that had hitherto been based upon the opinions of their schools? founders and teachers. The insistence of the advocates of hadiths that the only opinions of any value were those which could appeal to the authority of the Prophet resulted in the situation that "where no traditional matter was to be had, men speedily began to fabricate it. The greater the demand, the busier was invention with the manufacture of apocryphal traditions in support of the respective theses."
In summary, Goldziher sees in hadiths "a battlefield of the political and dynastic conflicts of the first few centuries of Islam; it is a mirror of the aspirations of various parties, each of which wants to make the Prophet himself their witness and authority." Likewise,
Every stream and counter-stream of thought in Islam has found its expression in the form of a hadith, and there is no difference in this respect between the various contrasting opinions in whatever field. What we learnt about political parties holds true too for differences regarding religious law, dogmatic points of difference etc. Every ra'y or hawa, every sunna and bid`a has sought and found expression in the form of hadith.
And even though Muslim traditionalists developed elaborate means to scrutinize the mass of traditions that were then extant in the Muslim lands, they were "able to exclude only part of the most obvious falsifications from the hadith material." Goldziher, for all his scepticism, accepted that the practice of preserving hadiths was authentic and that some hadiths were likely to be authentic. However, having said that, Goldziher is adamant in maintaining that
In the absence of authentic evidence it would indeed be rash to attempt to express the most tentative opinions as to which parts of the hadith are the oldest material, or even as to which of them date back to the generation immediately following the Prophet?s death. Closer acquaintance with the vast stock of hadiths induces sceptical caution rather than optimistic trust regarding the material brought together in the carefully compiled collections.
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Did I say Allah says so and so? Did I even mention Allah?
Salam,
No, but you are stating it as fact when it is not.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam,
No, but you are stating it as fact when it is not.
Salam,
ArnabReally? What is "not"? That khtm (does not) mean end, closed, no more access? Explaining a word becomes "stating a fact"? Why don't you give us the meaning of this root in the sematic languages you know and prove me wrong ? While you are doing that (if you care to do that), here are the verses where this word or its derivatives are used in the qur'aan
27; 646; 4523; 3665; 42;24; 8326; 8325
and please show us where, after this verb is used, anything has access to what has been (makhtoum/sealed) -
Really? What is "not"? That khtm (does not) mean end, closed, no more access?
That is one of the meanings but not the only one. In fact more times than not when the word is used in a statement such as in 3340 it means that it is an authentication.
Explaining a word becomes "stating a fact"?
Yes, actually it does. If you are EXPLAINING a word that means you are helping another person to understand the meaning.
Does that mean that you were not stating a fact?
That is called misleading people deliberately or to be more frank lying.Why don't you give us the meaning of this root in the sematic languages you know and prove me wrong ? While you are doing that (if you care to do that), here are the verses where this word or its derivatives are used in the qur'aan
27; 646; 4523; 3665; 42;24; 8326; 8325
and please show us where, after this verb is used, anything has access to what has been (makhtoum/sealed)The word khatm is used in different ways through out scripture. Here is a history.
Hebrew
From Strong?s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries and Brown Driver Briggs? Hebrew Dictionary
Strong's # H2856
chatham
khaw-tham'
A primitive root; to close up; especially to seal - make an end, mark, seal (up), stop.BDB Definition
- to seal, seal up, affix a seal
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to seal, affix one?s seal
1a2) to seal up, fasten up by sealing
1b) (Niphal) to seal
1c) (Piel) to lock up
1d) (Hiphil) to be stopped
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 780
From The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
0780 - hatam
Hebrew Word hatam
Strong's Cross Reference 2856
Definition affix a seal, seal up. This verb occurs in the Qal, Niphal, and Hiphil.Derivative TWOT Number 780a
Derivative Transliteration hatam
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 2368
Derivative Definition seal, signet (ASV, RSV the same except RSV has signet ring in Hag_223).Derivative TWOT Number 780b
Derivative Transliteration hotemet
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 2858
Derivative Definition a signet seal.The basic meaning of this root is "to seal." Various kinds of documents were authenticated by affixing seal impressions from stamp or cylinder seals. The one was stamped into clay or wax while the other was rolled across it, leaving an impression. Letters (1Ki_218 ), decrees of kings (Est_312; Est_88, Est_810; Dan_617-1, covenants (Neh_101 ), land purchase deeds (Jer_3210, Jer_3211, Jer_3244), and books (Dan_124) were sealed. Also an unintelligible prophecy is said in a simile to be sealed (Isa_2911).
Hence sealing designates that which is securely enclosed (Dan_129) by lying under a seal (Dan_129), e.g. the stars (Job_97), a treasure (Deu_3234), or one's transgression (Job_1417). Isaiah was to seal up his teaching in his disciples, that is, to keep it securely (Isa_816). A sealed fountain is a metaphor for a chaste woman (Son_412). The root also signifies to close up the hand of man so that he cannot work in winter (Job_377) and signifies that which is closed up (Job_2416) as when a man's running sore or discharge of the urinary tract is stopped (Lev_153).
hotam. Seal, signet. This masculine noun, from the root hatam "to seal," refers to a seal made of engraved stone impressed in clay or wax to authenticate a document. If it were a cylinder seal like those used in Mesopotamia it would be suspended around the neck on a string (Gen_381. A stamp seal such as was more common in Palestine would be carried, or worn on a finger (Jer_2224). However taba'at is the ordinary word for signet ring. Jezebel used Ahab's seal to authenticate the order of Naboth's death (1Ki_218; cf. Sir 426). Numerous stamp seals and cylinder seals have been found in archeological excavations in Palestine,
The stones and gold plate on the priest's garment were engraved as a jeweler engraved signets (Exo_2811, Exo_2821, Exo_2826; Exo_396, Exo_3914, Exo_3930). As distinctive property of its owner, a seal could prove that Judah had been with Tamar (Gen_3818; but v. 25 has ho'femet). "The signet on the right hand" is a figure for that which is particularly precious to one (Jer_2224; Hag_223).
In figures of speech the beloved desires to be as the seal on the heart and upon the arm (Son_86). One speaks of morning changing the earth like clay under the seal (Job_3814) the figure probably being derived from the rolling of a cylinder seal over clay; of Leviathan's back shut up closely as with a seal (Job_4115 ); and of a king as the signet of perfection (Eze_2812).
hotemet. Signet. Used for impressing documents, the cylinder seal was widely known in the ancient near east. As a mark for personal property, the seal, practically a signature, was undisputable evidence that Judah had been with Tamar (Gen_3825; cf. v. 18 ).
Bibliography Tuffiell, O., "Seals and Scarabs," in IDB, pp. 254-59. Huey, F. B. "Seal," in ZPEB, V, pp. 319-24. J.P.L.
Aramaic
From Strong?s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries and Brown Driver Briggs? Hebrew Dictionary
H2857
chatham
khath-am'
(Chaldee); a root corresponding to H2856; to seal - seal.BDB Definition
- (Peal) seal.
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a root corresponding to H2856
Same Word by TWOT Number 2749
From the Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
2749 - hatam
Aramaic Word hatam
Strong's Cross Reference 2857
Definition to seal. Usage similar to Hebrew.From The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia on the use of the word through out the scriptures
Seal
sel (substantive , hotham, ?seal,? ?signet,? , tabbaath, ?signet-ring?; Aramaic , izka'; , sphragis; verb , hatham, (Aramaic , hatham); (, sphragizō, (, katasphragizomai, ?to seal?)I. Literal Sense.
A seal is an instrument of stone, metal or other hard substance (sometimes set in a ring), on which is engraved some device or figure, and is used for making an impression on some soft substance, as clay or wax, affixed to a document or other object, in token of authenticity.-
Prevalence in Antiquity
The use of seals goes back to a very remote antiquity, especially in Egypt, Babylonia and Assyria. Herodotus (i. 195) records the Babylonian custom of wearing signets. In Babylonia the seal generally took the form of a cylinder cut in crystal or some hard stone, which was bored through from end to end and a cord passed through it. The design, often accompanied by the owner's name, was engraved on the curved part. The signet was then suspended by the cord round the neck or waist (compare the Revised Version (British and American) ?cord? in Gen_3818; ?upon thy heart ... upon thine arm,? i.e. one seal hanging down from the neck and another round the waist; Son_86). In Egypt, too, as in Babylonia, the cylinder was the earliest form used for the purpose of a seal; but this form was in Egypt gradually superseded by the scarab (= beetle-shaped) as the prevailing type. Other forms, such as the cone-shaped, were also in use. From the earliest period of civilization the finger-ring on which some distinguishing badge was engraved was in use as a convenient way of carrying the signet, the earliest extant rings being those found in Egyptian tombs. Other ancient peoples, such as the Phoenicians, also used seals. From the East the custom passed into Greece and other western countries. Devices of a variety of sorts were in use at Rome, both by the emperors and by private individuals. In ancient times, almost every variety of precious stones was used for seals, as well as cheaper material, such as limestone or terra-cotta. In the West wax came early into use as the material for receiving the impression of the seal, but in the ancient East clay was the medium used (compare Job_3814). Pigment and ink also came into use. -
Seals Among the Hebrews
That the Israelites were acquainted with the use in Egypt of signets set in rings is seen in the statement that Pharaoh delivered to Joseph his royal signet as a token of deputed authority (Gen_4141 f). They were also acquainted with the use of seals among the Persians and Medes (Est_312; Est_88-10; Dan_617). The Hebrews themselves used them at an early period, the first recorded instance being Gen_3818, Gen_3825, where the patriarch Judah is said to have pledged his word to Tamar by leaving her his signet, cord and staff. We have evidence of engraved signets being in important use among them in early times in the description of the two stones on the high priest's ephod (Exo_2811; Exo_396), of his golden plate (Exo_2836; Exo_3930), and breastplate (Exo_3914). Ben-Sirach mentions as a distinct occupation the work of engraving on signets (Sirach 3827). From the case of Judah and the common usage in other countries, we may infer that every Hebrew of any standing wore a seal. In the case of the signet ring, it was usual to wear it on one of the fingers of the right hand (Jer_2224). The Hebrews do not seem to have developed an original type of signets. The seals so far discovered in Palestine go to prove that the predominating type was the Egyptian, and to a less degree the Babylonian. -
Uses of Sealing
(1) One of the most important uses of sealing in antiquity was to give a proof of authenticity and authority to letters, royal commands, etc. It served the purposes of a modern signature at a time when the art of writing was known to only a few. Thus Jezebel ?wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal? (1Ki_218 ); the written commands of Ahasuerus were ?sealed with the king's ring,? ?for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, may no man reverse? (Est_88, Est_810; Est_312). (2) Allied to this is the formal ratification of a transaction or covenant. Jeremiah sealed the deeds of the field which he bought from Hanamel (Jer_3210-14; compare Jer_3244); Nehemiah and many others affixed their seal to the written covenant between God and His people (Neh_938; Neh_101 ff). (3) An additional use was the preservation of books in security. A roll or other document intended for preservation was sealed up before it was deposited in a place of safety (Jer_3214; compare the ?book ... close sealed with seven seals,? Rev_51). In sealing the roll, it was wrapped round with flaxen thread or string, then a lump of clay was attached to it impressed with a seal. The seal would have to be broken by an authorized person before the book could be read (Rev_52, Rev_55, Rev_59; Rev_61, Rev_63, etc.). (4) Sealing was a badge of deputed authority and power, as when a king handed over his signet ring to one of his officers (Gen_4142; Est_310; Est_82; 1 Macc 615). (5) Closed doors were often sealed to prevent the entrance of any unauthorized person. So the door of the lion's den (Dan_617; compare Bel and the Dragon verse 14). Herodotus mentions the custom of sealing tombs (ii. 121). So we read of the chief priests and Pharisees sealing the stone at the mouth of our Lord's tomb in order to ?make the sepulchre sure? against the intrusion of the disciples (Mat_2766). Compare the sealing of the abyss to prevent Satan's escape Rev_203). A door was sealed by stretching a cord over the stone which blocked the entrance, spreading clay or wax on the cord, and then impressing it with a seal. (6) To any other object might a seal be affixed, as an official mark of ownership; e.g. a large number of clay stoppers of wine jars are still preserved, on which seal impressions of the cylinder type were stamped, by rolling the cylinder along the surface of the clay when it was still soft (compare Job_3814).
II. Metaphorical Use of the Term.
The word ?seal,? both substantive and verb, is often used figuratively for the act or token of authentication, confirmation, proof, security or possession. Sin is said not to be forgotten by God, but treasured and stored up with Him against the sinner, under a seal (Deu_3234; Job_1417). A lover's signet is the emblem of love as an inalienable possession (Son_86); an unresponsive maiden is ?a spring shut up, a fountain sealed? (Son_412). The seal is sometimes a metaphor for secrecy. That which is beyond the comprehension of the uninitiated is said to be as ?a book that is sealed? (Isa_2911 f; compare the book with seven seals, Rev_51 ff). Daniel is bidden to ?shut up the words? of his prophecy ?and seal the book, even to the time of the end,? i.e. to keep his prophecy a secret till it shall be revealed (Dan_124, Dan_129; compare Rev_104). Elsewhere it stands for the ratification of prophecy (Dan_924). The exact meaning of the figure is sometimes ambiguous (as in Job_3316; Eze_2812). In the New Testament the main ideas in the figure are those of authentication, ratification, and security. The believer in Christ is said to ?set his seal to this, that God is true? (Joh_333), i.e. to attest the veracity of God, to stamp it with the believer's own endorsement and confirmation. The Father has sealed the Son, i.e. authenticated Him as the bestower of life-giving bread (Joh_627). The circumcision of Abraham was a ?sign? and ?seal,? an outward ratification, of the righteousness of faith which he had already received while uncircumcised (Rom_411; compare the prayer offered at the circumcision of a child, ?Blessed be He who sanctified His beloved from the womb, and put His ordinance upon his flesh, and sealed His offering with the sign of a holy covenant?; also Targum Song 38 ?The seal of circumcision is in your flesh as it was sealed in the flesh of Abraham?). Paul describes his act in making over to the saints at Jerusalem the contribution of the Gentiles as having ?sealed to them this fruit? (Rom_152; the meaning of the phrase is doubtful, but the figure seems to be based on sealing as ratifying a commercial transaction, expressing Paul's intention formally to hand over to them the fruit (of his own labors, or of spiritual blessings which through him the Gentiles had enjoyed), and to mark it as their own property. Paul's converts are the ?seal,? the authentic confirmation, of his apostleship (1Co_92). God by His Spirit indicates who are His, as the owner sets his seal on his property; and just as documents are sealed up until the proper time for opening them, so Christians are sealed up by the Holy Spirit ?unto the day of redemption? (Eph_113; Eph_430; 2Co_122). Ownership, security and authentication are implied in the words, ?The firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his? (2Ti_219). The seal of God on the foreheads of His servants (Rev_72-4) marks them off as His own, and guarantees their eternal security, whereas those that ?have not the seal of God on their foreheads? (Rev_94) have no such guaranty.
On the analogy of the rite of circumcision (see above), the term ?seal? (sphragis) was at a very early period applied to Christian baptism. But there is no sufficient ground for referring such passages as Eph_113; Eph_430; 2Co_122 to the rite of baptism (as some do). The use of the metaphor in connection with baptism came after New Testament times (early instances are given in Gebhardt and Lightfoot on 2 Clem 2Co_76). Harnack and Hatch maintain that the name ?seal? for baptism was taken from the Greek mysteries, but Anrich and Sanday-Headlam hold that it was borrowed from the Jewish view of circumcision as a seal. See MYSTERY.Arabic
From Lane?s Lexicon courtesy of PRL (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
Kh-Ta-Miim = To seal/stamp/imprint/impress, to secure/protect oneself against a thing, produce an impression or effect upon a thing, reach the end of a thing, cover over a thing, turn away/avoid/shun someone or something, to not understand, prevent the heart from believing, feign heedlessness.
From Hans Wehr?s Dictionary
To seal, provide with a seal or signet (s.th); to stamp, impress with a stamp (s.th); to seal off, close, make impervious or inaccessible (s.th?as in hearts said of God); to put one?s seal (on), conclude, terminate (s.th); to wind up finish complete (s.th.); to close, heal, cicatrize (wound)
As you can see the meaning retains the same meanings and usages through out the Semitic languages.Here are some Excerpts from John (please note this translation is only for the purpose of getting an idea of the content of the verses. No translation is entirely accurate that being said, the word KHATM is DEFINATELY in these verses).
God has sealed Isa, i.e. authenticated Him
Joh 627 Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you for him hath God the Father sealed.
The believer in Isa?s words is said to ?set his seal to this, that God is true?, i.e. to attest the veracity of God, to stamp it with the believer's own endorsement and confirmation.
Joh 333 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Salam,
Arnab - to seal, seal up, affix a seal
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Thats a tough question. I think its all about how reliable is the historic information. In the absence of archeological discoveries and ancient documents, the only way is to rely on logical arguments.
In the absence of authentic evidence it would indeed be rash to attempt to express the most tentative opinions as to which parts of the hadith are the oldest material, or even as to which of them date back to the generation immediately following the Prophet?s death. Closer acquaintance with the vast stock of hadiths induces sceptical caution rather than optimistic trust regarding the material brought together in the carefully compiled collections.
Salaam Bigmo
Thank you for explaining in detail and, as you said its is tough, but I feel that in the absence of the best example of the practice of the prophet we may end up going back in time. There is so much confusion arising and I am finding it very difficult to relate to any of the arguments going on at present and pray to God to direct us to the right path.
peace
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Salam samia. There is a huge problem with the way you are using the arabic word khatam.
First let me introduce you to the Arabic word akhir. Akhir means the last. Contrast akhir with khatam.
Allah does not say muhammad nabiyun akhirun. Which is Arabic for muhammad is the last prophet. If Allah had intended to say muhammad was the last prophet he would have said so. Allah did not say so.
I am aware that some posters in this forum speak languages that have incorporated some Arabic words in their language. Turkish, Farsee, Swahili, and Urdu, are some of these languages. These other languages use words like khatam in another context, the context of ending that you speak of. A translator must be wary of these influences they have no place in understanding the Quran.
As long as you use the arabic term khatam and translate it to mean seal, you obtain a high degree of resolution in translation. If you use the arabic term khatam and translate it to mean end or last, you reduce some verses of the Quran to incomprehensibility. For this reason I advise not to use the term end or last.
Please adjust your understanding of the word khatam accordingly.
Allah taught man the names of all things.
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Salam samia. There is a huge problem with the way you are using the arabic word khatam.
First let me introduce you to the Arabic word akhir. Akhir means the last. Contrast akhir with khatam.
Allah does not say muhammad nabiyun akhirun. Which is Arabic for muhammad is the last prophet. If Allah had intended to say muhammad was the last prophet he would have said so. Allah did not say so.
I am aware that some posters in this forum speak languages that have incorporated some Arabic words in their language. Turkish, Farsee, Swahili, and Urdu, are some of these languages. These other languages use words like khatam in another context, the context of ending that you speak of. A translator must be wary of these influences they have no place in understanding the Quran.
As long as you use the arabic term khatam and translate it to mean seal, you obtain a high degree of resolution in translation. If you use the arabic term khatam and translate it to mean end or last, you reduce some verses of the Quran to incomprehensibility. For this reason I advise not to use the term end or last.
Please adjust your understanding of the word khatam accordingly.
Allah taught man the names of all things.
Salaam Al Araf
You just ignore all what I wrote and stick to the "last"? I did not just throw the meaning khatim means last, I reached it throw the original meaning of "to authenticate". Now tell me, how can the prophet authenticate some one who claims to be prophet now? If this is impossible, it means that by being the authenticator he is also the last. If you have a different conclusion, please share it with us.A seal authenticates what was written before it is stamped on the document. After the seal is broken (= death of the prophet) any addition to the document is illegal (no more prophets can be authenticated). Therefore he is the last prophet/messenger. He is not just an approved prophet, he is an authenticating/approving one.
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Salam samia. First let me inform you I find your English grammar and sentence construction to be very poor. This hinders a rational analysis of your post. I dont say this as a personal affront, I say this in an effort to explain to you why you are not being understood.
You state "You just ignore all what I wrote and stick to the "last"? I did not just throw the meaning khatim means last, I reached it throw the original meaning of "to authenticate". Now tell me, how can the prophet authenticate some one who claims to be prophet now? If this is impossible, it means that by being the authenticator he is also the last. If you have a different conclusion, please share it with us"
Youre completely wrong in your assumption that I ignored what you wrote and "stick" to the last. Look what you just did yourself, you said "it means by being the authenticator he is also the last" You yourself are sticking to the last. Please think what you are saying before you write.
You have in fact said "it means" "by being the authenticator" "he is also the last" I see you again trying to reach around to the word last, which does not exist in the verse, by claiming authenticator is some sort of intermediary, which it is not.
This is an exercise in your addition of "authenticator" and "last" You know very well that addition to the Quran is prohibited and haram. I do not have a different conclusion. I let the Quran speak for itself. You do not have a conclusion, you are adding to the Quran. If you persist in adding to the Quran in your bad attempt to change the word of Allah, I assure you no good will come of this. Does the Quran not say there are people who change words from their places and such people are evil? Why do you keep trying to go to the word last, no matter how you do it, when the word last is not there. Allah is not daeef that he needs samia to improve on his Quran. Do you understand that? Allah says "seal" submit like a believer and say "seal"
Allah is mighty wise.
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Salam samia. First let me inform you I find your English grammar and sentence construction to be very poor. This hinders a rational analysis of your post. I dont say this as a personal affront, I say this in an effort to explain to you why you are not being understood.
So you did not understand what I was saying?
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Or do they have idols ( Muhammad ) who decrees for them a system that Allah has not authorized?
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Or do they have idols ( Muhammad ) who decrees for them a system that Allah has not authorized?
Salam,
I can't speak for Anthonywallace, but my understanding of his statement was that a lot of people idolize Muhammad just as there are many people who idolize Jesus. They do this with statues (in the case of Jesus), wanting to copy every single move they think Muhammad made (using hadith).
Of course, since I was not the author of the statement this is based entirely on my own thoughts and opinions.
Perhaps Anthonywallace will clarify his statement for us.
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam samia. Please read the complete paragraph which contained one sentence "why you are not being understood" I composed the paragraph to contain a a thought. That one sentence is not the complete thought. Let me repeat the grammar and sentence construction is poor, it HINDERS a rational analysis of your post. You picked out the last sentence. The last sentence is my informing you that your English is hard, not impossible to understand.
May I use the example of the "last" issue to demonstrate the problem. A reader who reads in your post that you are protesting, that it is wrong to conclude that there is a fixation with the word last, is very surprised to find, you went in a circle and again concluded that muhammad is the last through the intermediate term authenticator.
This makes no sense to a reader directly. The first thought a reader has is, why did samia protest, saying she didnt mean last, and then right after that say last. The reader tries to believe that samia is a rational person who would not contradict herself, however samia's words prevent such a conclusion. The only other alternative is the reader has to believe that samia's English is poor, and she is unaware that her grammatical errors are creating the apparent contradiction.
The other part to the post which is the hop, skip, and jump, from seal-authenticator-last, with no explanation of how your mind went from one word to the other, is at the least confusing, or, is a shortcoming in your ability to present an opinion. Please give your reader the rational basis why you made this jump from one word to the other, dont assume people can read your mind.
If your post, so you did not understand what I was saying, was intended to be sarcastic, and a barely concealed claim that the reason why this debate has occurred is that I have a shortcoming in my ability to comprehend, let me disavov you of your misconception.
Allah is mighty wise.
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Salam samia. Please read the complete paragraph which contained one sentence "why you are not being understood" I composed the paragraph to contain a a thought. That one sentence is not the complete thought. Let me repeat the grammar and sentence construction is poor, it HINDERS a rational analysis of your post. You picked out the last sentence. The last sentence is my informing you that your English is hard, not impossible to understand.
May I use the example of the "last" issue to demonstrate the problem. A reader who reads in your post that you are protesting, that it is wrong to conclude that there is a fixation with the word last, is very surprised to find, you went in a circle and again concluded that muhammad is the last through the intermediate term authenticator.
This makes no sense to a reader directly. The first thought a reader has is, why did samia protest, saying she didnt mean last, and then right after that say last. The reader tries to believe that samia is a rational person who would not contradict herself, however samia's words prevent such a conclusion. The only other alternative is the reader has to believe that samia's English is poor, and she is unaware that her grammatical errors are creating the apparent contradiction.
The other part to the post which is the hop, skip, and jump, from seal-authenticator-last, with no explanation of how your mind went from one word to the other, is at the least confusing, or, is a shortcoming in your ability to present an opinion. Please give your reader the rational basis why you made this jump from one word to the other, dont assume people can read your mind.
If your post, so you did not understand what I was saying, was intended to be sarcastic, and a barely concealed claim that the reason why this debate has occurred is that I have a shortcoming in my ability to comprehend, let me disavov you of your misconception.
Allah is mighty wise.
Salam Al Araf,
Very well written.
Thank you for pointing out the problem that some us were experiencing in an eloquent fashion.
Salam,
Arnab