Openmind,

you said you responded to my request, you did? When? Where? What? You mean you provided me with an Ayah or Ayat on the injunctions of the acts of worship? Please re-post it for me because I really did miss that. Not another Ayah on the Qur'an is clear and in detail. Please! Get a sense of sophistication at least. You people perform like robots to say the least...

Provide me with Ayat that teaches me my worship to ALLAH as HE has commanded. In Detail as performed by the Messenger of ALLAH (S), and as He instructed. This is all I am asking for. But NOBODY CAN PROVIDE IT. ALLAH commands us to attend Jumu'ah. HE says when the call is proclaimed; What call? Is this call explained in the Qur'an? Well, how will you learn it? After it is proclaimed, hasten to the Remembrance of ALLAH, (Jumu'ah Prayer) Is this Prayer explained id DETAIL in the Qur'an? How will one learn how to do it? And so much more. It is not as you people say and think! IT IS AS IT IS!!! AND IT HAS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE THE TIME OF THE MESSENGER UP UNITL TODAY. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PRAYING THIS SAME WAY, FOLLOWING THE MESSENGER FOR THE PAST 14 CENTURIES. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONDUCTING AND ATTENDING JUMU'AH PRAYER FOR THE SAME. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CALLING THE ATHAN FOR THE SAME. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MAKING HAJJ FOR THE SAME, AND ON AND ON. PLEASE, I AM PLEADING WITH YOU NOW. WHERE IN THE QUR'AN CAN ONE LEARN HOW TO DO THESE ACTS OF WORSHIP IN THE MANNER OF THE PROPHET (S)? AND SINCE ALLAH HAS REPEATEDLY COMMANDED US TO OBEY AND FOLLOW HIM, THIS IS WHAT WE DO, BECAUSE ALLAH COMMANDED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OPENMIND, IF YOU CAN'T PRODUCE THESE AYAT OR ADMIT THAT THESE THINGS ARE FOUND IN THE SUNNAH OF THE MESSENGER (S) AND THERE IS WHERE WE LEARN THEM AND APPLY THEM, THEN PLEASE SAVE YOUR RESPONSE. BECAUSE YOU ARE ONLY MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF. THE REQUEST IS CLEAR. PRODUCE OR ADMIT YOU PEOPLE ARE DEFICIENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arnold Yasin, first I want to truly commend you on your research, and the effort you put forth in your presentation. It was academically impressive.

However, and you know this phrase, (I would suppose), "KALIMA TUL HAQQ, WA YURI DU BIHIL BATIL. A statement of truth, while he desires by it falsehood.

Much of what you stated, about what some of the Scholars of Islam presented were true. Obviously the Ayat from the Qur'an were true. The brief sketch of the Hadith compilers were true. BUT YOUR CONCLUSIONS IN USE OF THESE SOURCES WERE NOT!!!

In your entire presentation, or your explanation to the chorus on how to explain to the "Sunni or Shi'a on why not following the Hadith as wahi, you never dealt with the spiritual aspect of the Messengers (S) role. And you know why, because it would discredit your whole argument if you even attempted to do so. And this is consistant with your line of reasoning. For you stated in your big post in the other thread the following about Hajj, which by the way was absolute rhetoric, but this is how you began;

"We all know the Prophet's biggest mission was a social one, liberate the slaves, the women, help the poor, crerate a fair system of Life where everyone is equal..

My friend Arnold, where did you get this line from? What Ayah said that His (S) biggest mission was a social one? But can one see you train of thought. You went from His mission to being a social one, and now the obedience to Him is political. This is very indicative of what kind of background you have. But where is the spiritual reality of His (S) mission. I have yet to see you post anything on it. Rather the contrary, everything is MUNDANE to you, and the rest of the flock. And this leads me to my point about your last presentation, which I think can sum it all up. And this is the point that is ALWAYS NEGLECTED AND DOWNPLAYED. That is; HOW DO YOU OBEY THE INJUNCTIONS OF ALLAH IN THE QUR'AN ABOUT THE ACTS OF WORSHIP, LIKE PRAYER, ZAKAH, FASTING, HAJJ ETC. IF YOU DON'T GET IT FROM THE LIFE AND ACTIONS AND STATEMENTS OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S)? Please tell me, how can you make hajj, as commanded by ALLAH from JUST READING THE QUR'AN? Please, give me the Ayah, anyone! GIVE ME THE AYAH!!! GIVE ME THE AYAH ON ZAKAH, ON WHEN TO PAY IT AND HOW MUCH ONE MUST OWN OR HAVE TO BECOME ABLE TO PAY ZAKAH? GIVE ME THE AYAH!!! GIVE ME THE AYAH ON THE PRAYER AND HOW IT IS TO BE PERFORMED. HOW MANY UNITS (RAKA'AH) FOR THIS PRAYER AND HOW MANY FOR THAT PRAYER? THE FUNERAL PRAYER, AND OTHERS PRAYERS? GIVE ME THE AYAH!!! YOU CAN'T BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These details of worship it addressed in the life and Sunnah of the Messenger (S), and you are oppose to His Sunnah, you can never fulfill these injunctions of worship as ALLAH commanded. NEVER!!! No matter what you think.

And also, my friend Arnold, about your post of Surah Tur (52) where you stated;

"History says the Quran was written on small pieces of stone, leaves and other poor mediums. The Quran says

Fee raqqin manshoorin
523 Written on fine parchment, unrolled, open for everyone to read,
widely published.

Who told you that this was in reference to the Qur'an? Again, where did you get this from? Not another Ayah, that is for sure! This Ayah is talking about the, 'Lawh Mahfuth'. The Preserved Tablet, in which the records of ALL things is written therein. So how do you put this Ayah on the Qur'an and then even worse, try to negate confirmed history by it. Again, it just goes to show how shallow you people are. And since you are visiting Surah Tur, which is a very beloved Surah to me. Can you tell me from the Qur'an what is the meaning of the very next Ayah of what you quoted? You quoted Ayat 2-3, but what is the meaning of Ayah 4? What is Baitul Ma'mur? The Frequented House. And no, it is not in reference to the Ka'aba either. Is the answer to this in the Qur'an?

My friend Arnold, your agenda is very worldly and political and through these lenses you view the Qur'an, while although the Qur'an deals with the mundane, it is a spiritual Book for the heart and guidance of Humanity. Along with this is acts of worship that opens us pathways the arrive at the spiritual truths. But with your worldy agenda, it is obvious that you have been neglected in this. Ponder over what ALLAH states in the Qur'an;

"And of the people is he whose speech pleases you in worldly life, and he calls ALLAH to witness as to what is in his heart, yet he is the fiercest of opponents". (2204)

My old friend Nun,

Back again huh? And I guess you feel pretty good about your last post since it was so organized and structured, right? Please. Every point you noted was taken out of the context it was mentioned and you call it this or you call it that. Even the Ayat that you cited after the Ayat I challenged you to post, you intended out of context, Read the whole text from 460 to 468, and you will see, bu then again, I don't think you will see, but anyway one will see that you by implication fits the description of the hypocrite.

Now, to answer your post;

You stated;

"False claim agreed by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"As for Al kitab, it is Qur'an and more."

My response;

I never commented on this statement at all. So now you are resulting to telling lies on me. How sorry '(

You stated;

"False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"I asked you to tell me or provide me with an Ayah where ALLAH clearly states that HE revealed the Qur'an (by name) to Muhammad (S) (by name)."

And then you provide as your proof;

Evidence
3340 MUHAMMAD is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

472 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to MUHAMMAD - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- ?.

Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c"

My response;

This does not answer what I asked or provide what was requested. How many time are you going to fail at this same issue. Must I make it multiple choice for you? In neither of those Ayat is the word Qur'an mentioned. That is what I asked for so why don't you bring me that. I will make the question or request easier. BRING ME AN AYAH WHERE THE NAME MUHAMMAD AND THE WORD QUR'AN IS MENTIONED TOGETHER.

As for your statement;

"Transitive Property of Equality if a = b and b = c, then a = c"

Then lets apply it this way, If ALLAH commands us in the Qur'an,to not oppose the Commandments of the Messenger (S), and the words or commandments of the Messenger (S) is not in the Qur'an (The Qur'an is the Word and Commandments of ALLAH Alone!), then where are the words and commandments of the Messenger (S)?

You stated;

"False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN KNOW IT IS 100% UNCHANGED IS IF YOU WERE ACTUALLY THERE"

my response;

It is clear foolishness like this that proves to your inability to follow anything. This actually was a quote of someone else, and I repeated it to them , showing them how it would work against them if they employed that type of reasoning. While, at the same time I stated that I didn't agre with it. Very poor job again Nun. There is one thing that I do have to admit about you, that is you are very consistant; its just in being wrong brickwall

And finally, Thank GOD, you stated;

"False claim by abu contradicting Qur?an?
"The Qur'an says that He is to teach it, how can you come and now say that wisdom cannot be taught?"

Evidence
599 The Messenger's duty is but to PROCLAIM (the message)?

my response;

Please, Nun, what does this say?

"It is HE who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them HIS verses and purifying them AND TEACHING THEM THE BOOK AND WISDOM although they were before in clear error. (622)".

So now, heres your homework, read this verse until you get it CLEAR< and don't read or post anything else until then '(

Openminded;

Please my friend, open your mind!!!

What part of this don't you understand? Tell me, and I will try to help, stop just sending post trying to refute , while not at all understanding what was posted.

You said;

"Not to mention contradictions and the Quran being completely against the idea of having a separate source for laws regarding the deen"

The commands of the Messenger (S) is not separate from the intent of the Qur'an. Yes it is separate in script, in text, but no in intent. Please listen, or read what ALLAH has stated in the Qur'an

"...And let those who oppose THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS beware, lest some trials befall them or a painful torment be inflicted upon them"..

Can you see now, ALLAH says, "oppose the Messenger's Commandments". ALLAH didn't say ALLAH's Commandments, but the Messenger's Commandment. Well what are the Messenger's Commandments and where are they, because we know that they are not in the Qur'an, because only the commandments of ALLAH is in the Qur'an. So what and where is the Messenger's commandments? Please answer that, because no-one has yet.

Jack;

you stated;

"First of all you are greatly mistaken, you should study your own history. But let's ASSUME you are right....."

Is this you disclaimer; "BUT LETS ASSUME YOU ARE RIGHT".

Bring me the history of the Qur'an after, immediately after the death of the Messenger of ALLAH (S) then? This is a challenge to you and the rest of the chorus here. Please anyone bring it!!! Those of you who had the unfortunate experience of reading history, right? KNOW, that the preservation of Qur'an was through widescale memorization of it and passing it on. This was even the case during the life of the Messenger (S), since many of the sahaba could not read anyway. Nor could the Messenger (S) read, so how was he checking the authenticity of the Qur'an? It sure was not by READING IT!!! It was through recitation. And I know, I just know that one of you great scholars of foolishness, wants to quote the first revelation of Surah 96; where the command was Iqra. Well, although the word Iqra does convey the meaning of reading, it also means to recite. And thats why the name for a person who has learned the Qur'an by heart and maybe leads the prayer or teach Qur'an, is called a Qaari, a reciter, not a reader! Yes, the Qur'an was also written down by those who knew how to write, but this was not the main method of passing it on nor preserving it. And that is just the truth of the matter.

Greetings Samia;

You stated that;

"If I ever believed that the quraan was transmitted the way hadith was, and that its fallibility/infalibility is equal to that of the hadith, I would believe that the prophet was not doing his job, and that God was not telling the truth when He described him as of great manners. It wont make me believe in the hadith, but would make me reject the quraan as well. Isn't this what the hadith is aiming at?"

Well, believe as you wish but this is the history of the Muslim Ummah and their method of transmitting knowledge. The problem is, that you people don't study history, and this is non-Muslim or Muslim history. And if and when you do, it is more than likely non-Muslim history to attack Muslim history. You people have sadistic mentalities towards the tradition of what you say you believe in. It is all madness. But the truth, is what it is, and you won't be able to ever find it out, because you are all trapped in you own little world apart from the reality.

There has occurred a whole legacy of scholastic, medicinal, scientific, political, military, social sciences, psychology, that stemmed from the history of the early communities. Universities were built, science was developed, literary masterpieces, art and you name it, all coming out of this tradition, and you people have no access to it, because of your ignorance and arrogance. Go and google Islamic art, Islamic science, Islamic calligraphy, Islamic medicine, Islamic, Islamic, Islamic and study the beautiful legacy of the Muslims. Yes there is ugliness there too, when people abuse the power they are entrusted with, but that is the case in almost everything, so there is no need to even bring that indictment against Islam. That indictment is against man!

My point in all this, when you disconnect yourself from the whole tradition of Islam, you have nothing but a bunch of people trying to make sense out of A Divine Revelation, with no historical access. So you get absurd comments, like you get in this forum about the Qur'an and I have listed them in earlier post.

Ilisa, how are you,

I am sad to inform you that this statement of yours;

"Did you forget one important difference?

The Qur'an was written/compiled under the Prophet's careful scrutiny. This is many of our point of contention with the hadith.

IS NOT ACCURATE!!!

THE QUR'AN IN WRITTEN FORM WAS NOT AT ALL COMPILED INTO A MUSHAF (FOR A LACK OF BETTER WORDS, 'BOOK FORM&#039 DURING THE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER (S). RATHER, THIS OCCURRED DURING THE TIME OF ABU BAKR, THE KHALIFAH OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S). SO PLEASE READ YOUR HISTORY, OH I FORGOT YOU ONLY READ THE QUR'AN, SO YOU HAVE NO ACCESS TO THE HISTORY THEREOF.

Greetings Samia;

you want to hear some irony, that will that will shatter your story, IT IS, THAT THE QUR'AN WAS PASSED DOWN THE SAME EXACT WAY. THE REASON THAT WE HAVE THE QUR'AN IN TACT TODAY IS BECAUSE PEOPLE TOOK IT TO MEMORY, THE ENTIRETY OF IT. LEARNED IT RULES OF RECITATION, AND SAT DOWN WITH A SCHOLAR, WITH PASSED ON TO HIM THE EXACT RECITATION OF THE QUR'AN THAT HE RECEIVED FROM A SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM ANOTHER SCHOLAR, WHO TOOK IT FROM YET ANOTHER SCHOLAR WHO TOOK IT FROM THE LIKES OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE DURING THE TIME OF BUKHARI AND OTHERS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THOSE WHO LEARNT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS WHO TOOK IT FROM THE STUDENTS OF THE COMPANIONS THEMSELVES, WHO TOOK IT DIRECTLY FROM THE COMPANIONS, WHO TOOK IT FROM MESSENGER OF ALLAH (S), WHO RECEIVED IT FROM THE ANGEL JIBRIL, WHO WAS ENTRUSTED WITH IT BY ALLAH. ALLAHU-AKBAR!!!

This is how this knowledge was carried from one generation to the next with careful preservation of transmission. So, suit yourself not to believe it, but it is true!!! Just come to the real word and open up your eyes.

And in due time, I am going to post, some Ayat from the Qur'an that if you are not grounded in knowledge and faith, they would make one think that what you say about the Hadith. Again, truth is not based on your inadequate reason!!! It is based on truth, no matter how absurd it may sound to you.

Greetings Samia,

how are you? Your response seems full of logic, on the surface, and this seems to be the dominant trait of you all. You think that your logic is above the guidance and its aspects. Now to deal with your logic and actually show you how fallacious it actually is.

I stated "One cannot separate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him?"
In your attempted rebuttal;

You stated"The postman delivers our mail. Without him we can't have the mail. He is part and parcel to the mail. Would I go around collecting information about his life from, not a third but a tenth plus party, and believe those stories? Why for? Why would I search his life story in the first place? I have my mail to read, and it's much more important."

Now, had you been receiving mail from GOD, and contained in that mail was the order to obey and follow the mail man, that would change the whole affair, now wouldn't it. You see, you all fail to realize that this is a divine injunction!!! This is not a worldly recommendation. And I am glad that you used that example of the mailman, because that is a pretty CLEAR example! So, since you are not receiving any Divine Mail from GOD, yes continue to read your mail, and carry on. However, for those who want to follow the Qur'an, then it commands us to obey and follow the Messenger (S), so that being the case, I will search His life story, because GOD has made His life story ABSOLUTELY relevant to the Message the GOD revealed. BOTTOM LINE!!!

And think a bit more deeper before you employ sarcasm, because the worst thing is when your own sarcasm is the means of you being the fool.

Open-minded Salaams;

you said "Obey the messenger does not automatically mean obey the separate laws of the hadith. Would you not agree? You have this pre-conceived notion and knowledge of the hadith, so you think it automatically means this. How can you accept religious laws from other than the Quran?

My response;

Openminded do you follow all of the injuctions, commandments of the Qur'an. Especially the ones like the five pillars of Islam. After the Shahadah, prayer, zakah, fasting, and hajj? There are many more injunctions and "rules" but these will suffice for now. Ok, if you answer yes to this, then please tell me what Ayah in the Qur'an teaches us the DETAIL of the prayer, as performed by the Messenger (S)? What Ayah in the Qur'an teaches us how to pay zakah? Like when it is due and the percentage of money excess? Where? What Ayah? What Ayah teaches us about the hajj, in detail? As performed by the Messenger (S)? There are NONE!!! So how are we suppose to fulfill a command of ALLAH from the Qur'an if the knowledge of the means to fulfill it was never mentioned by ALLAH in the Qur'an? Please explain? So where is the detail of these acts of worship that ALLAH commanded us to do in the Qur'an? My friend, they don't exist in the Qur'an. Well, where can we find it, because it must be done, and ALLAH must have informed us about how, so where is it. I'll tell you. It is in the life of the Messenger (S), this is where we must look. And where is the life of the Messenger of ALLAH (S) to be explained in DETAIL, no not in the Qur'an but in the Authentic Hadith. That is clear, and I don't know what else I can say to you to make it clear. This is not preconceived ideas, this is fulfilling the commandment of my Lord upon my.

You said How can you accept religious laws from other than the Quran?

The question is really this. How can you seperate the Message of the Qur'an from the Messenger (S) who brought it to us and demonstrated the commands therein and explained them to us. This is the real question. You people have no connection to the Messenger (S). As far as you all are concerned, you can just do away with the Messenger (S, huh?

About 6114, I just covered some of that, and I am not yelling at you, but there is no need to cite that verse, I believe in the Qur'an, and I know that the Qur'an does, in places explains itself, but yet other times is does notand in these case what are we to do, just be ignorant about our Deen? No, we look to the one whom ALLAH sent with HIS Message, and learn from Him (S), because that is one of the reasons why ALLAH sent Him (S).

and no, I didn't just dodge 558-60, again this Ayah has a context in which it is in. And it is amazing how we talk about this idea of sontext and stuff, but we never apply it. If you look, it will clearly show you that ALLAH is addressing the Prophet Muhammad (S), about the people of the previous scriptures, and telling them to use their own book to judge, no the Qur'an, but telling the Prophet to judge by what ALLAH sent to him. Meaning don't think to use the books for judgement.

Nun, I challenge you to read from 460 to 465 and post that context. Show the people what the context is and what it says. And you citing the Ayat before and after what I cited did absolutely nothing to change the point of citing those Ayat.

And fun you must be having, because you sure are not learning anything, and moreover not helping anyone else learn. But you are entitled to be here like everyone else. We will just keep walking over you when we see you down there.

Open minded,

again my friend, you are trying to use the Qur'an against the Qur'an. If you do that, it will never work for you and you will never understand it. Trying using the Qur'an, for the Qur'an, not against it. Meaning use one Ayah to help you understand another, like Hlatif and myself have been trying to do for you people.

And ambiguous or unclear Ayat are Ayat that we should NOT delve into. Although people may attempt to do so, and by default there will be various opinions. But this meaning has nothing to do with 332. This Ayah is not mutashabi by a long shot. And for you to state that is proof of you ignorance, and that is the truth of the matter. There is nothing mutashabi about " Say, Obey ALLAH and HIS Messenger. But if they turn away - then indeed, ALLAH does not like the disbelievers." (332)

And you are still quoting 6114, this is just unbelievable!!! I guess you have not got an update on your automated responses yet, huh?

D Argento

YOUR QUESTION

1. "since you admit the quran is complete, where in the quran is this sunnah of the messenger "

MY ANSWER
"ALLAH said "BUT NO, BY YOUR LORD, THEY CANNOT (TRULY) BELIEVE, UNTIL THEY MAKE YOU, ( O MUHAMMAD), JUDGE CONCERNING OVER WHICH THEY DISPUTE AMONGST THEMSELVES AND THEN FIND WITHIN THEMSELVES NO DISCOMFORT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE JUDGED AND SUBMIT IN (FULL, WILLING) SUBMISSION." (465)

ALLAH said ("IT IS NOT FOR FOR A BELIEVING MAN OR BELIEVING WOMAN, WHEN ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE DECIDED A MATTER, THAT THEY SHOULD (THEREAFTER) HAVE ANY CHOICE ABOUT THEIR AFFAIR. AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAS CERTAINLY STRAYED INTO CLEAR ERROR". (3336)

AND ALLAH SAID; "MAKE NOT THE CALLING OF THE MESSENGER AMONG YOU AS YOUR CALLING OF ONE ANOTHER. ALLAH KNOWS OF YOU WHO SLIP AWAY UNDER SHELTER. AND LET THOSE WHO OPPOSE THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS BEWARE, LEST SOME TRIAL BEFALL THEM OR A PAINFUL TORMENT BE INFLICTED ON THEM". (2463)

AND ALLAH SAID "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND TO THE MESSENGER, YOU SEE THE HYPOCRITES TURNING AWAY FROM YOU IN AVERSION". (461)

YOUR QUESTION

2. "and what does hajj mean according to the quran?

MY ANSWER

"Surah 3 Ayat 96-97"

YOUR QUESTION

3. "The earth is a sphere as we all know, so being such there will be some place directly under 'makka' how do they face the kaaba during salaat?

MY ANSWER

This question is extremely absurd and the most ridiculous one that I have heard so far on this forum but...

Mr D Argento, I live in America, and ABOVE AMERICA IS CANADA, but when I look up, I don't see Canada. No geographical site on the earth will see another if you look directly above, all who look above them will see the sky. I mean I can't even believe I am answering something as silly as this, but it just goes to show where you people are.

Salaam Katara,

All answers are not yes and no. Life is not a black and white reality. Its not that cut and dry. I just posted a response about the Ayat that deals with the Messenger (S) and how it is distinct from the Qur'an Under "Explain 597", I hope you can see it and that will be helpful. And your point about point of view is a good one, you said"There are many points of view we can look at a topic..but once a view point is known to be NOT right, seek other point of views..And this is what I am trying to convey to this forum, the pont of view that just following the Qur'an, and Qur'an alone slogans are not correct, and they should be abandoned for what has been taught about the Qur'an and the Messenger since the inception of the message. Remember, there comes with the Qur'an and Sunnah and everything else, a historical reality. And thsoe people who say Qur'an alone, have absolutely no connection with this reality!!! For you all, its like the Qur'an just fell off a mountian to you and not knowing nor caring where it came from and how it is to be applied and understood, you boast, Qur'an alone. In order to truly understand it, you need to know the history behind it. And that does not mean in every Ayat if you don't know the history you can gain benefit and guidance from it, no. But in totality, you need to know these things so that you can have the proper understandings. If I get time, I will llist for you the serious mistakes that people on this forum made in trying to interpret the Qur'an by the Qur'an alone, coupled with their ignorance. One cannot seperate the Messenger from the Message!!! He is part and parcel to the Message! Without him, we have no message!!! So how can we have the Message without Him? And to know Him (S) is in the Authentic Hadith!!! And again, if you read my post in 597, the Ayat I posted there makes this point so clear.

Salaam

My buddy Nun, back again with the same old stuff. What are you having fun? Because you sure not making any sense. Why are you still regurgitating your robotic responses? No one is arguing against what the Qur'an say, rather Hlatif and myself are just bringing you all alternative Ayat that clarify and particularize those very general ones that you are keep citing. You want to see some Ayat, then look at the refutation of OPF in my last post. Deal with those Ayat. And stop just pasting Ayat on the post that has no impact to the discussion, since we all already agree to those Ayat. Man, you are like the energizer bunny, you just keep beating the same old drum, on and on and on...

As for you open-minded, first and foremost, you need to go back and re-read your book on usool-at-tafsir or wherever you got your definitions from. Because the definition for mutashabihat is not verses that have more than one meaning, this is a gross error, and again indicative of your ignorance of Qur'an. Mutashabihat means ambiguous, unclear, meaning, we don't really know what the meaning is, and we should delve into it. That is the meaning of mutashabihat. Thus to claim an Ayah as you stated is Mutashabi, is just non-sense. Unless it is mutashabi only to you, and that may well be the case, because it obvious you don't know what it mean. And too state that 6114 is Muhkam, then maybe you just learned some terminology and was anxious to use it. That ayah has a context, and you cannot generalize it like that because look what ALLAH says in 465. To Make the Prophet (S) the judge. So is this a contradiction? Is the Qur'an contradicting itself? No, not at all, you people are contradicting it. You people want to you general Ayat against specific and vise versa and then claim how clear it is. Extremely strange, especially when you never deal with the Ayat that are posted to show you that your understanding of the Ayat that you have employed in incorrect. Please, respond to these Ayat! You can't, rather you press your automated button or responses using the same exact Ayat, and the same lines. People get with reality!!!

As Salaamu Alaikum,

I see much has ensued since I been gone. Don't really know where to start. But since I was accused of not responding to one post, I will attempt to start there. But before I do, I would like to say that a friend of mine, OPF responded to at least two post after I left a rebuttal for him to respond to, and I have not seen anything about it.

Quote from OPF
DO YOU BELIEVE THE QURAN CAN BE VERIFIED AS THE WORD OF GOD TODAY AS IT IS?

Yes, that is easy, but it is not simply by stating that the Qur'an said it. To do so is arguing from your belief, not from facts. And believe is not always substantial in proving anything. Proving FACTS, entail the useage of external agents to assure so, like history, congruity with known scientific realities (though not always a method in establishing such) and the like. As for the Qur'an, proving its veracity is contingent upon at the least these two factors. Lets take a look; History, which is first, because if you can't authenticate that something is from the source of claim, how can you even believe it in the first place. So before we even consider whether or not the Qur'an is from ALLAH or not is indifferent to the first fact of proving that this is the Qur'an that ALLAH is talking about! And that cannot be done from within the Qur'an alone. There has to be an external element to prove this, and if this is proved false, the whole thing is the same. Now, when looking at history, as it relates to the Qur'an, then there are two many factors, the Islamic method of preserving history and the non-Islamic way of preserving history. As for the non-Islamic way of preserving history, then it is basically through the method of examining and using respective contemporary sources that noted their history about given events. Some are reliable, some are not. So, already this type of approach can not be considered conclusive! Now, as for the Islamic way of preserving history, in particular of religious texts, then, ITS MAIN FACTOR IS THROUGH THE ISNAD SYSTEM. THIS IS JUST A FACT OF ISLAMIC HISTORY, THAT STRETCHES BACK OVER 14 CENTURIES AND WHICH INCLUDES THE HISTORY OF THE QUR'AN, HADITH AND VARIOUS RELIGIOUS TEXT OF STUDY. About this science of Isnad, it is a well proven thorough system of assuring the highest veracity of anything transmitted through the passage of time. And as it relates to the Qur'an it is even more essential, since the Qur'an must be completely accurate in not only its meanings, but its syntax. And anyone who has studied the science of Tajweed knows how serious an affair this is. A stretching of a vowel at the wrong time can completely alter the meaning. A slip in putting on the vowel marks can cause the same. AND WHEN THE QUR'AN WAS TRANSMITTED, IT WAS NOT THROUGH SCRIPT, IT WAS THROUGH THE ORAL RECITIATION THEREOF. AND PLEASE HERE THIS, IF ONE RECITED THE QUR'AN IN ITS ENTIRETY FROM MEMORY (AFTER HAVING LEARNED IT HIMSELF FROM A BOOK), BUT COULD NOT VERIFY A TEACHER THAT HE TOOK THAT FROM, HE WOULD BE DISMISSED AS A VALID QUR'AN PRESERVER (HAFITH). Why? Because without a teacher, you have no connection to anyone, and that means you cannot be traced back to the Messenger of ALLAH through an UNBROKEN CHAIN OF TRANSMITTERS THROUGH EVERY GENERATION BACK TO THE MESSENGER (S), BACK TO ANGEL JIBRIL (A), BACK TO THE LORD OF THE WORLDS, ALLAH, EXALTED IS HE! And at this point, after I have VERIFIED its historical authenticity, and is certain that the Qur'an that was revealed to the Prophet (S), is still in tact and is the same copy that I hold in my hand, now I can go and use the internal factors of the Qur'an to substantiate its Divine Authority!!! And I would encourage all of you to study the science of Tajweed. And anyone who says that this is not important, really is just waisting his time.

Next point, OPF you stated; God tells us not to accept baseless ahadeeth. God tells us to ensure all our information can be verified. God tells us 'do not say "we have faith", rather say "we submit to the lord of the worlds" and allow faith then to enter your hearts'. Obey the messenger does not mean obeying baseless hadeeth. Obeying the messenger does not mean obeying easily tamperable chains of transmission. Here is something that ALLAH said, please, explain, what does this mean to you.

ALLAH said "BUT NO, BY YOUR LORD, THEY CANNOT (TRULY) BELIEVE, UNTIL THEY MAKE YOU, ( O MUHAMMAD), JUDGE CONCERNING OVER WHICH THEY DISPUTE AMONGST THEMSELVES AND THEN FIND WITHIN THEMSELVES NO DISCOMFORT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE JUDGED AND SUBMIT IN (FULL, WILLING) SUBMISSION." (465)

ALLAH said ("IT IS NOT FOR FOR A BELIEVING MAN OR BELIEVING WOMAN, WHEN ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAVE DECIDED A MATTER, THAT THEY SHOULD (THEREAFTER) HAVE ANY CHOICE ABOUT THEIR AFFAIR. AND WHOEVER DISOBEYS ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER HAS CERTAINLY STRAYED INTO CLEAR ERROR". (3336)

AND ALLAH SAID; "MAKE NOT THE CALLING OF THE MESSENGER AMONG YOU AS YOUR CALLING OF ONE ANOTHER. ALLAH KNOWS OF YOU WHO SLIP AWAY UNDER SHELTER. AND LET THOSE WHO OPPOSE THE MESSENGER'S COMMANDMENTS BEWARE, LEST SOME TRIAL BEFALL THEM OR A PAINFUL TORMENT BE INFLICTED ON THEM". (2463)

AND ALLAH SAID "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND TO THE MESSENGER, YOU SEE THE HYPOCRITES TURNING AWAY FROM YOU IN AVERSION". (461)

By ALLAH, I can bring dozens more, literally, but these should suffice. What I wanted everyone to see in these Ayat is that the distinction that ALLAH made between HIS word and command and that of the Messenger (S), please just read it, it is clear. So, one cannot absurdly claim that to obey the Messenger means follow the Qur'an. That makes absolutely no sense. For ALLAH has already told us to Obey ALLAH, then why to repeat it with and follow the Qur'an? In Ayah 460, this is even more clear, because ALLAH says "AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED" Now does it make sense to state right after that and follow the Qur'an? It would read like this is it was together. AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM, COME TO WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED AND FOLLOW THE QUR'AN. THE QUR'AN IS WHAT ALLAH REVEALED!!! So then what is the meaning of the second part; "AND TO THE MESSENGER"? Please answer that. Come to the Messenger (wa ila Ar-Rasul). This does not mean follow the Qur'an! It means exactly what it says, come to the Messenger, His way, His commands, His Sunnah, and all of this is found in the Authentic Hadith.

As for your statement; "Why is it nonsense? Archaeology says that the cube is an old pagan practice". Well my friend OPF, forget about what they say, what do you say? And then lets read what ALLAH says
"THEN LET THEM END THEIR UNTIDINESS AND FULFILL THEIR VOWS AND PERFORM TAWAF (CIRCUMMAMBALTION) AROUND THE ANCIENT HOUSE". (2229)

I didn't do point for point, as my Brother Hlatif done a good job in bagging a lot of the other hot air you let out. But please, would you now respond to this. I have brought up your arguments, and dealt with them. The floor is now yours, and I will try to be a bit more structured and prompt, but I do have a lot of work to do on my end.

Salaam Katara;

I am glad that is clear, and know that I never intend any harm, I am just glad that we can share views and learn from each other, even if we don't agree. Nevertheless, such a tolerance does not mean accept false and erroneous beliefs advocated under the banner of Islam.

Now to answer your question. Yes, I believe that the Qur'an is complete!!! As for being enough and detailed, then that will depend on what it is that is required of me by ALLAH. For in some aspects and duties as a Muslim, ALLAH guided us by way of the Sunnah of the Messenger (S) instead of fully laying it out in the qur'an. Just one example, the Hajj. The hajj has many aspects and rituals, and a lot is mentioned in the Qur'an, but by far not the complete hajj, the remaining detail of it is found in the example of the Messenger when he performed it and explained it, by commanding us to take our means to perform the hajj from him. This way, we won't make big mistakes and absurd statements like OPF in the "597" thread, which i responded to and showed how mistaken he was. Please take a look. So, yes I agree with what you are saying, but there needs to be an explanation when we say 'enough' and 'detail'.

Ma Salaam

OPF,

I am up against time constraints, the last couple of days have been full for me, as I am attempting to acquire some property. But I just wanted to say a couple of things about your latest post. First, THE ONUS OF PROOF IS UPON THE ONE WHO MAKES THE CLAIM!!! We are not making any claims against someone or something you all are. So you have to prove your claim!!! And proof is not conjecture, for ALLAH says that conjecture avails naught against the truth (1036) Nor is proof something that doesn't make sense to you. For there are many verses in the Qur'an that someone without faith or sound grounded knowledge could say the same thing to you, and Hlatif made this point to you. A shame you keep making the same mistake. So because a Hdith don't make sense to you, does not at all dispel it as being untrue. It is like the american story of the fox (I think it was a fox) where he wanted some grapes, but could not reach them from the vine, so after trying and being unable, he just wrote it off and claimed, the grapes were sour (anyway). And this is your approach to this Deen, how sad, or maybe how scary, the equivalent of a fox.

And what was this report you cited about the earth on the back of a bull and etc. Where is this at? I have not ever read that, and I am not saying that I read everything, but that I know I have not. Please provide you source for this.

Finally, and the saddest part of your post it such ignorance as the following quote from you. It just goes to show how someone who really thinks they know, but are really seen to be ignorant when the light of truth is shed.

OPF, YOU STATED Conversely, we can say archaeology is not attractive to you because it exposes the Sunni cube circumambulation as a pagan practice. Concrete evidence is better than hearsay and conjecture
..

AND ALLAH STATED THEN LET THEM END THEIR UNTIDINESS AND FULFILL THEIR VOWS AND PERFORM TAWAF (CIRCUMAMBULATION) AROUND THE ANCIENT HOUSE. (2229)
AND THIS ANCIENT HOUSE IS THAT CUBE THAT OPF, QUOTED TO BE FROM AMONGST THE PAGAN PRACTICES. SO, OPF, NOW YOU ARE INSINUATING THAT ALLAH, THE GOD THAT REVEALED THE QUR'AN IS CALLING THE BELIEVERS TO FOLLOW THE PAGAN PRACTICES? IS THIS WHAT YOU BELIEVE OPF? LETS TAKE A VOTE, SHOULD WE BELIEVE THE QUR'AN OR OPF? ALL IN FAVOR OF THE QUR'AN, SAY BYE TO OPF, YOU HAVE LOST YOUR STATUS AS THE LEAD SINGER OF THE CHORUS.

Salaam Katara;

Again , thank you for a response.

As for your conclusions;...from your premises 1)ayat obey God obey rasool, and
2) the quran does not provide finer details on these matters= quran needs hadith to supplement its msg= quran not enough= quran is not complete.

This is not what I am saying. I am not saying at all that the Qur'an is not complete. ALLAH tells us clearly that HE has perfected this Deen, but what you all fail to accept on very weak premises, is that the life of the Messenger and His interaction with his companions and others, through the guidance of the Qur'an and inspired revelation to Him (S) IS PART OF THIS DEEN!!! Our proof is mentioned so many time in the Qur'an, where ALLAH commands us to obey and follow the Messenger. Now, the Hadith are compilations of those statements and actions of the Messenger (S) that will give us access to a more detailed look at His life. This is not an aspect of the Qur'an. ALLAH does not state much about the particulars of the life of the Messenger (S), because the companions were there to witness that aspect. So there is no need. However, these particulars of the life of the Messenger (S) and how he encountered the people as it relates to fulfilling His role as a Messenger, was narrated by those who were with Him (S) to a people that was not. For the reason of educating them about what they were not blessed with, i.e the presence of the Messenger of ALLAH (S) and how to follow Him (S) as commanded by ALLAH. These teachings of the Sahaba was going on during the life of the Messenger (S) and after. Later, due to unfounded statements about the Messenger (S), the need arose to put stipulations and criteria on who can be relied upon to take narrations from while establishing that each narration (Hadith) a a traceable chain of transmitters all the way back to the Messenger (S), thereby ascertaining and authenticating the veracity of the narration. This process is called the science of Isnad (i.e. chain {of transmitters}) This is a very thorough science and one which can be relied upon, for it is proven!

Katara this is my point as it relates to your question about the Qur'an and Hadith. I hope I was able to help.

As for your statement; Trust me, Abu, i have heard that kind of argument many times. I am not as ignorant as you think i am.
alright, i'm not going to argue anymore about this, it is already clear to me. It is between you and Allah now.
I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that the both of us are doing this for truth, justice and for Lord's approval.. not for our ego and self-interest.

I don't know what that was about. I never thought you were ignorant, and I truly apprecited your questions. If you felt like I was disrespecting you of some sort, then please accept my apologies.

Ma Salaam.

PS - I will be posting, Insha-ALLAH, a thorough post about these issues under the "Explain 597" thread in the next couple of days. So hopefully, that will help clarify things more if needed.

OPF, we are not discussing context here, the point of this post was to refute the false idea that ALLAH didn't send down revelation based on the happening of the Sahaba. That somehow the Qur'an was above that.

And how do you know better than Umar. How arrogant you people are to oppose the very one that were there when the Qur'an was being revealed? Your arrogance is sickening! And what message in the Hadith are you talking about? And what again, be careful what you say about the Sahaba. You can never be like them. They have their promise of paradise from ALLAH, what do you have? Read Surah 9 Ayah 100, and I challenge you to post it. ALLAH has mentioned them in HIS Book, where are mentioned? On freeminds, wow? Humble your OPF, and respect the history!