Assalamu alaikum mz,

Ok, here we go?.

You said
?I think you might point out that prayer is our attempt to improve our mind/spirit by seeking guidance and contact with God.
As for me, I find that this leads me to laziness and forgetfulness about why I am here and what I should be doing with this life.?

Yes actually I found it used to give me a sense of satisfaction/fulfilment even though I didn?t accomplish anything.

I can understand your viewpoint. Everyone needs to find their own way?don?t you think? What works for you doesn?t necessarily work for me and vice versa. That is fine with me. Although we have different views on this, I would never agree with anyone who tries to force someone else to follow their (sometimes) hard coded rituals of belief.

Why do we need to get in touch with the maker when he is always in contact with us and will help/give us when he sees fit or necessary or when we deserve his help and need it aswell.Surely he is guiding us aswell and more then that even sends messengers for greater guidance?

I envy you and I wish I could say that I always feel the same, but I find that I have often made mistakes and continue to make them in regards to my goals for spiritual improvement. I believe that more is required of us than to simply wait around in expectation of guidance. I believe that we must strive for success and not wait in expectation of it.

Isn?t it so, that he merely wishes us to advice/discuss other fellow beings to guide/be guided and help our fellow men/bretheren to betterment.

Have you ever done any teaching or counseling, or been in a professional group leadership position? If so, you might have found that advice and discussion are useful in this regard, but sometimes it is much better to lead people by example.

Love to hear your view about this bit.

Above? Done. Below, coming up next?.

You said
?QT 4101-102?

Now these ayah?s (to my understanding-and belief) are nothing at all to do with prayers as you might have also come across in the other topics here at free-minds, but simply the salaa is here to do with discussions/orders for the offensive taking place and to be safe they are told to shorten this and keep their arms for safety in case they where attacked until one party has received their orders and they have accepted.

I think you are coming back to your first point in the start of this thread. Do you think that when the Prophet led his men in salat and the mark that it was finished was because they had performed their prostrations, this meant that they were merely discussing their plans for coming battle? Let me argue against this by reinterpreting the ayahs in attempt to match your understanding of them. Here is 4101-102 with clarifying additions in parenthesis

And if you are on the offensive in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten the war counsels, if you fear that the disbelievers will try to attack you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy.
And if thou (Leader) are with them and hold the war counsel for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated (to you Leader), then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet heard the plan come and plan with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded (from making tactical plans) by rainfall, or (from planning long term strategy) if you are ill, that you keep from placing down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

Is this what ayahs 101-102 mean to you? This is would certainly be an extraordinary reinterpretation of the Quran. If I thought this was what the ayahs meant, then I would want no part of it and would consider ?Quran is a warmongering text? crowd to be spot-on in their criticisms instead of merely being blind to the obvious truth of the message. Really, if you?re out and about with a military purpose, it seems like it would be a good idea to have war counsels, but if you?re at peace then you don?t need them at all. You would not have longer ones in peacetime and shorter ones in wartime. This startling reinterpretation also ignores the very next ayah

QT 4103
So when you are done with the contact-method, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. When you are relieved, you shall hold the contact-method; the contact-method for the believers is a scheduled book.

I could not in good conscience substitute ?war counsels? or the equivalent for ?contact-method?, I believe and hope that you wouldn?t do that either. If there is solid proof in the Quran that salat means prayer in some contexts then I think the proof is these ayahs. They indicate very clearly that someone, who is almost certainly the Prophet but is not doubt the Leader, is to conduct a group activity recommended by God that would normally require leaving any weapons behind and that ends with the group making prostrations. Whatever sort of activity could that be? You don?t have to be a Muslim to guess the answer. What would happen if we gave the lines below to 100 people at random and let them fill in the blanks?

And if you are on the offensive in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten the _________, if you fear that the disbelievers will try to attack you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy.
And if thou are with them (your men) and hold the _________ for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated, then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet contacted come and contact with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you keep from placing down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

How many Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, agnostic, or atheist people will fill in the blanks as anything other than ?prayer?. Not very many who don?t intend to attack the Quran I think.

I don?t speak or read Arabic yet, but I?m working on it. I do know that words in any language are defined and acquire new meanings based on the context in which they are used. According the W.M. Thackston, ?The first book written down in Arabic, and the one that has been responsible for not only for establishing Arabic as an important written language but also for maintaining the language and isolating it from external impetus to change, was the Koran?. (An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic, Introduction, page 12) Accepting the Quran as one of the primary building blocks of Arabic, you should be able to point to a body of linguistic scholarship that supports your position that salat as it is used in the context of 4101-102 does not mean prayer. This does not require that it means prayer in every context, but it does here. I think a better way to state your position would be to demonstrate that prayer follows many different forms including recitation and meditation and does not necessarily mean ritual prayer and a certain number of rakats, but that it certainly can include such ritual methods.

You said
?I completely agree that group prayer isn't absolutely necessary, and I seldom feel the need to do so more than two or three times per week myself. In fact I'm lucky to go even once per week,

But when I do so, I feel more dedicated to my purpose and more on target with my goal,

So I think it would be better if I went more often. You are probably in a different place on your road and I'm sure you are moving in a way that feels right for you?

Good place to meet other people and have a feeling of sociable/loving nature it does make us feel good even though we accomplish nothing to my knowledge accept be polite and nice to others, and there is nothing wrong with that ? I suppose.

The things you mention are certainly good, but they really have nothing much to do with my general experience. I usually go to a service in the early afternoon, which people call ?thuhur?. I don?t much care what time it is or what direction we face, and I don?t think it?s important to agree on those points except that we manage to meet together in a reasonably organized way. Most people that show up are professional people. We don?t spend much time except for briefly before or after the service in idle chitchat, but instead get back to our relative work/offices. If I asked any of these people if they had come primarily to socialize, they would be insulted and rightly so. Unfortunately, it seems that your experience is different.

Of course if this helps to meet/achieve good results it?s a good thing but I can?t consider salaa = prayers, as Again Allah doesn?t require them and we don?t need to get in touch with him as he is looking out for me all of the 100% of the time as he has said and I merely need to be righteous for him to appreciate my services.

Prayer not required? Right, I think prayers are for us, not God. If you don?t need them, then you must be in good shape. You don?t mention faith or belief, but you seem to indicate it and so you might believe that faith is also necessary. Hopefully this is a component for you, otherwise what you are advocating is nothing more than standard Western enlightenment, liberal style do-gooding or enlightened self-interest. That?s not a bad thing; it just isn?t what I?d call an islam thing. Islam is for the individual and for the societal group.

I realize that we are straying from your original point, but I want to point out that group prayer and ritual prayer in Islam are not based on hadith, but on much older traditions that exist in similar and related forms throughout the world in Judaism for example. I?m not a ?hadithist?. I agree with some people here who do not think that the "hadith prayers" are necessarily the best ones, but I really don?t worry about it since I can make any prayer I want. Simply put, my opinion on hadiths is that some of them contradict each other and to accept those is to except illogic as a proof. Some of them are in clear contradiction of the Quran. We that believe that the Quran is from God should not accept something that contradicts it. This would again be illogical. Some hadith are nonsensical like the Zina Monkeys hadith. A nonsense story can have a special meaning that is revealed by study, ?Mulla Nasruddin? stories for example are sometimes used as instructional tools by Sufis, but are not regarded as Scripture. I think that Islam should make a thorough reassessment of these things and reshape itself around the Quran as God?s message, some hadiths as relevant guidance and historical documents, and many hadiths as apocryphal, but that simply won?t happen in a climate where ?fundamentalism? has put a clamp on open discussion, debate, and dissent.

Prayer, group prayer, meditation and various other methods of spiritual achievement can and should be separated from any enforced ritual (5 prayers), dress (hijab), or personal grooming (beard) requirements. I expect that we all know this one

2256. There is no compulsion in the Way; true direction is distinct from error. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

I still consider myself to be in the early phase of direction in this Way. I have chosen to make a connection with others to help me by attending some group prayer and also by reading a lot of what gets posted on this and other websites?some like-minded and some not. It?s great that Free-Minds is a truly open forum of discussion about beliefs and practices. Looking at some related ?salat-does-not-equal-prayer? threads, I get the impression that some people here are trying force-feed others a Free-Minds Orthodox Doctrine. Surely that would be an unworthy self-contradiction for a site like this. I think it?s sad that someone like brother Hussein was driven away from this site by these kinds of attitudes. http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3361

?Salat does not equal 2-3-4 rakats? seems a much more sensible theory to me.
That?s all that I have to say on this topic. We must either agree, or agree to disagree.

God?s Peace.

Peace mz,

Thanks for your reply. It really got me thinking. When you see how long this post is, perhaps i thought too much. Since i am new to this Way (only about a year and a half), I'm not one to lecture on the Quran, but i wanted to try to bring some examples to illustrate my points. So if i make any obvious mistake with them, please keep this in mind.

I personally think the language and the physical movements we perform for messages e.t.c are all essentially for communications between living creatures but nothing to do with our communications with the allmighty as "do we need anything -such?" to communicate with him? emphatic No.

God does not need our demonstration or our prayer, but as I said before, it helps me to communicate (I hope) because it helps me concentrate and focus. I think this may be true for the majority of people. So do we NEED to do this? I agree that we do not, but i think that it does serve a good purpose and it is a method that I think God approves.

But as it is said Righteousness reaches him - which is an interection between the living ones.

Sure, these are our "works" in an obvious and direct way.

As you (i think) said he knows ones thoughts ,well is it possible he may miss out on some thoughts -again emphatic No.

Yes i agree, the answer is no.

QT 233
He said "O Adam, inform them of the description of these," so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?"

QT 47
And He will punish the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women, and the idolater men and the idolater women, who think evil thoughts about God....

So All we need to do is have a feelling and that gets to Him - doesn't it.

I think we're in general agreement, but you are creating a bit too much of a separation between thoughts and action for me. Think about this is there any non-autonomous human action that occurs without thought behind it? Is thought itself a physical process and therefore a form of action? Science indicates that thought is a physio-electro-chemical activity of our brain right? God is not like us. While humans struggle with the seeming dichotomy/separation of thought and action, i don't believe that the creator has this problem. He is probably aware of this in the same way he is aware of any change within the creation--whether this takes place on a global scale or in the subatomic.

I'll try to illustrate what I mean with an example I have the thought that my yard would look nicer if i plant some trees. It's a good thought right? Trees help create more oxygen and cleaner air--they serve many useful and aesthetic purposes. Then i think about and physically do the work of planting a few baby trees. Where was the larger change in the universe taking place--when i thought about planting or when i thought about it and went through the physical process of doing it? Even though i thought about it with clear intentions, i still did not accomplish my goal without the physical work being done. Can God differentiate between a greater and lesser amount of activity in his creation? I think so.

I think you might point out that prayer is our attempt to improve our mind/spirit by seeking guidance and contact with God, and therefore it has no physical end result. I think for some special people who have accomplished a high degree of success, this may be sufficient. As for me, i find that this leads me to laziness and forgetfulness about why i am here and what i should be doing with this life.

Now i'd like to mention that a good religion has positive societal and cultural benefits. As you point out, your physical/public display of prayer might be just a form of communication with other people. I think you already know that that can serve a good purpose it might help guide those who are less capable to follow your good example. If that is true, then YOU have become an instrument of God's will to guide them. Surely that is a good thing? Just because some elements of religious culture are bad and even dangerous, it doesn't mean that we must discard every single aspect of it in a reactionary fashion. In fact, what might be needed most is the input of thoughtful people like you into this ongoing process. Maybe you can help to correct some of these problems. Based on reading the Quran, are you sure that isn't what He wants us to do? If not, why did he inform His messengers to teach us?

From a more personal direction for me, i observe that most 'religions' whose seekers strive to form a close bond with God (though perhaps they do not call it God), such as Zen Buddhism, Sufism, Yogic Hinduism, and others which are called mysticism, use some sort of process to achieve this goal. Mediation/Prayer is often a part of it, but how is it physically done? They usually sit in a certain way with a certain posture. Breathing and focus are often an important part of it too. We know that the Sufis use all kinds of interesting practices, sometimes involving music (physical) and its impact (thought--but still physical) and "dance". I became interested in these 'religions' and studied them somewhat on and off for about 20 years, but never took it to the next level. I think there are only a few exceptional individuals who accomplish their goal with such methods. When i began reading the Quran in earnest and studying Islam, what occurred to me was that here was the same essential goal of the mystics, but with practices and guidance, that could be understood and followed by the masses. My personal belief and hope is that perhaps the average person like me, who can not seem improve myself much otherwise, can at least make some spiritual benefit and also improve myself as a person within society by following these practices.

So even here when some say/think Salaat is a form of prayer Is it really?Or was it something going on between individuals for our benefits.

I can only speak for myself. When i go to Jumah, i consider it congregational praying. If i am only thinking about me-me-me and how others will respect or appreciate me when they see me doing this, then that is not any kind of prayer. That's why i do my best to concentrate on my objective which is trying to improve my connection to God, while at the same time i am trying to draw support, strength of will, and focus from my congregational fellowship who i think are trying to do the same thing with and for me.

QT 4101-102
And if you are on the offensive in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten the contact-method (alssalati), if you fear that the disbelievers will try you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy.
And if thou are with them and hold the contact-method (alssalata) for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind....

"Groups" are mentioned a lot in the Quran, so perhaps they serve some good purposes. -)

QT 3971
And those who reverenced their Lord will be driven to Paradise in groups. When they reach it, and its gates are opened, its guards will say to them "Peace be upon you. You have done well, so enter to abide herein."

I completely agree that group prayer isn't absolutely necessary, and I seldom feel the need to do so more than two or three times per week myself. In fact I'm lucky to go even once per week, but when I do so, I feel more dedicated to my purpose and more on target with my goal, so I think it would be better if I went more often. You are probably in a different place on your road and I'm sure you are moving in a way that feels right for you.

May God guide us all on a straight path.

Hi mz,
Perhaps i'm off on a tangent here, but avoiding the sacrifice issue and looking back on the bowing issue

Salaams Br.
actualy i was hoping for some proofs which may indicate symbolic gestures aimed at the God - where he may have asked for this or where a prophet/messenger may have performed such gestures towards the God.If you know them it would be helpful for many.As to my knowledge all physical/symbolic gestures are primerily for us physical beings as we can't read peoples minds as such and vice versa - i think.

Were you perhaps wondering if there is external evidence to support the Hadith-based prayer rituals practiced by Prohpet Muhammad or early Muslims? I'm interested in finding out more of the early history of Islam which is not based soley on Islamic sources, and perhaps something like this could be found in those sources. I haven't found anything that looks like a very good source yet though.

Perhaps you only meant to discuss whether or not we think it is useful for us to bow or or perform prayer in some ritualistic fashion. ("As to my knowledge all physical/symbolic gestures are primerily for us physical beings as we can't read peoples minds as such and vice versa - i think.") I think you are wondering here if this is for our benefit or God's benefit, and there i think it is only for our benefit - both on an indivual basis and a group basis. I know that some people have no need for the support system that can arise from group prayer, because when we do that, it is pretty much inevitable that it becomes ritualised. In that case i suppose the gestures are partly for the benefit of others?

Is any of this anywhere near what you are asking? Oh well. -)

God's Peace

Hi,
He does.

So is there anything wrong in being a five timer.May be Not ! But isn?t it trying to trick God into thinking something ? that we accept his authority when it may not be the case in practice?Remember he can see how much of his authority we do accept ,He sees us all the time Does he not?

If the purpose of ritualistic or symbolic motions while praying is to "trick God", then of course that is something wrong. In my own case, i find that it can be helpful for my focus and concentration. Five times, ten times, or all the time, why not? Because only three times are mandated does not mean it is a maximum limit or something. Just because some people that we may disagree with us in other matters might do it doesn't mean that their way is all wrong. To paraphrase a saying, "the friend of my enemy, is not necessarily my enemy."

God's peace.

Thanks Khalil. I'll add that one to my short list of likeable rap tunes. As one who has been in an intense relationship or two, these lines cracked me up

"Where was Jesus when the ice was thrilling you,
Oh, he was he with me trying to keep me from killing you!"