peace, all.

i began thinking further about this topic, and began thinking about the bible as well. what commitments does it hold? and how do these compare and contrast?

that brought me to the 10 commandments. i am not convinced that "salat" is to be translated literally as "commitments" as i have previously stated, but the concept is accurate, i believe.

so i thought, "what is an English word that means 'things GOD wants us to do?" that's when i recalled THE 10 COMMANDMENTS.

a google search for hebrew meaning of commandments brought lots of pages...here's one or 2 quotes from them

And the question I am putting to you is how can we uphold and affirm as a Reform value ? The Commandments, with a Capital C ?

The short answer is by means of another word beginning with C ? Commitment.

We uphold them because we are committed to them. There are many things in life which we may not be able to subscribe to 100%. We may not like our job but we?re committed ? we?ve signed a contract; we may not agree with everything the State of Israel does but we stand to Israel in the same relationship as to our family and to the Jewish people as a whole. And it is a commitment. It does not have to be an uncritical commitment. But we cannot opt out without denying who we are.

I put it to you, the same is true of the Commandments. We may not be able to subscribe to them all, but we are committed to the concept of Commandments, mitzvoth, simply by virtue of being Reform Jews.
http//www.mcr-reform.org.uk/A-Z%20sermons/C%20is%20also%20for%20Commandments.htm

The word (davar) may better be translated as "order" as in the phrase "And YHWH gave orders to Moses saying". A commanding officer does not speak to his troops. he has formulated his action plans and has determined the best means to have these plans carried out. Once all of this is determined, he gives his "orders" to his troops. These orders are "an ordered arrangement".

The phrase "Ten Commandments" does not actually appear in the Hebrew Bible, instead it is aseret hadevariym" and is literally translated as "ten orders". The "Ten Commandments" are our orders from God (the general). They are an ordered arrangement of ideas that if followed will bring about peace and harmony
http//www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/002.html

these do not verify anything, but they have helped me to feel comfortable with the concept of what commitments are. the word itself is not as important, and i'll continue reading it as commitments, with the understanding that salat falls into the same catagory as commandments, or orders GOD would like us to follow.

just my thought for today.
peace,
brian

peace, all.

the story of joseph

123 We relate to you the best stories through what We have inspire to you in this quran; and before it you were of those who were unaware.

1275 They said, "The punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall remain as a punishment. It is such that we punish the wicked."

back to 127 It is thus that in Joseph and his brothers are signs for those who ask.

12111 In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.

peace,
brian

Peace, all...

Again i say, how could joseph's plot to get his family back have worked if the punishment was to cut his brother's hand, or mark it, or amputate it? Surely GOD did not include this story...AND THAT SPECIFIC DETAIL...in the quran for NO REASON.

brian

Peace all...

If the punishment is to fit the crime...eye for an eye...how does taking a loaf of bread from a store=becoming handicapped?
Further, there is no compulsion in the deen. chopping off hands is forcing someone not to steal...i still haven't figured out the handless theif analogy, but i suppose in this day and age anything is possible.
To me, the story of Joseph explains what we are to do. If Joseph was depicted as GOD-serving, enough that an entire chapter was devoted to him, unlike any other man in quran, we cannot assume that his choice in dealing with the "thief" was contrary to GOD's way, as he was continually rewarded by GOD for his actions.
Eye for an eye, but mercy is better...so, not cutting a thief's hand off is better, even if you think that's what it means...and we are to follow that which is BEST.
There is one exception to the eye for an eye rule, thoroughly explained in the quran adultery.
This is singled out as a gross offense by name, and the eye for an eye scenario would not work...you slept with my wife, so I'll sleep with yours? This is a case where even exchange for the crime committed leads to more problems rather than peaceful solution, which is why not only is a specific punishment given, but GOD in the quran tells us not to mercifully let the offenders go without the punishment. Specific rules, specific consequence, no exceptions.
Everywhere else, you can seek justice, but mercy is better, and ultimately, the punishment is in GOD's hands.
If you are merciful to the thief, he may repent. If he continues, and is never caught...he will still get his from GOD...perhaps in this life, more than likely also in the next.
My two cents.

peace,
brian

Peace, all...
I am glad to see that this topic is still at hand.
Recently, i have just finished reading Aidid Safar's "Hijacking of Islam", which gives an entire breakdown of his opinions on salat, hajj, etc.
I plan on reading it again immediately, this time with an open quran or two (translations, of course) in the hopes of verifying for myself what, if anything, he writes seems true.
In regards to the questions concerning commitment fitting into 4102 and the dawn "salat", here is how i understand Aidid's writings
the "commitment" is not one particular thing...the revelations contained within the quran are the commitment...all of them...from how to handle a divorce situation, to what to eat, to dealing with "non-believers", to times of war & aggression. what is also mentioned as a commitment is reading & reciting the quran. if, especially during this time of revelation, you are with a group preparing for war or to defend a potential attack, etc, and you want to do everything "by the book", would it not be required of you as the leader of this "militia" to review the gameplan with those involved? This falls in line with commitment. 1) you are committed to your troops as the leader, general, whatever; and 2) the is the obvious correlation between solaa/commitment and READING/RECITING.
The quran, as we know, is guidance and mercy from GOD, so in seeking guidance/advice for any of life's situations, including but not limited to battle, we shoould always consider & consult what the quran has to say.
We, unlike everything else in existence, were granted free will...and given a guidebook to help us use it properly. Our commitment is to following that guidebook. Perhaps solaa does not literally mean commitment, but "commitment" embodies the concept of following the quran to the best of our ability...commitment/follow closely, etc.

Aidid suggests that each item listed in the quran is a commitment. Therefore, when the quran says that the dawn recitation is ever witnessed, that is a commitment. So, when it elsewhere generalizes as "during the dawn commitment", it would seem this is what it is referring to. Likewise, the night commitment...night is better for pondering and rearranging verses...to study all or part of the night, whatever is easy...that's our night commitment.
Finally, Aidid suggests that we are to uphold our commitments FROM the rising of the sun until its setting, and part of the night (because we don't all go to bed at sundown). When we are sleeping, we don't have to think about our commitments (unlike the people of mecca, who walk around with a stick to poke you if you are not sleeping on the correct side/position i'm told).

The birds, like all things, are a community like ourselves, and the birds know their commitment. We, endowed with free will, do not. It was offered to others (the mountains, etc) but they refused...the human accepted. Since we don't "know" our commitments, we need to read, recite, listen, and follow that which is best...seek refuge in GOD from satan.

This is what i took from his book the first time through. I look forward to hearing from all.

May GOD guide us to the truth
brian

Peace, all...
One of the "tricks" of sectarian Islam is that only in Arabic can the quran be fully appreciated. It seems that this is based on the fact that not all arabic words have a directly-correlating english word. This definately seems to be the case with "salat."
Perhaps this is why salat's definition is so complicated. Surely when GOD revealed the quran, the word was a common one, as it is used in various forms well over 75 times throughout. just as the word that "permits" them to beat their wives! just like the moon/month word. Just because the sectarians say that some words do not have an english equivalent does not mean that it is NOT TRUE. If they were wrong about everything in life, they'd all be dead, having eaten poison, or worse.
Partial definitions, such as connecting, following closely, PRAYER, etc, probably are in fact part of this non-english word's meaning...prayer emphasized because it probably was added as a possible meaning when no english word was found to give justice...but that more than likely meant something else to pagan nomads of long ago.
I cannot criticize anyone for their attempt at understanding. We know that only GOD truly knows what was meant, and we're all trying.
Myself, I cannot give a definition. I feel most at peace, like I've at least touched on the truth, when I force myself up early to read the quran & pray to GOD without distractions. Same for evening, especially since i get a sense of guilt or "unpeace...non-peace" when i choose to be distracted by worldly things & just say a li'l prayer from my pillow. So, one could say my approach to understanding is through "feeling".
The birds, who are a community like us, know their salat. I get much satisfaction & what feels like confirmation when i'm reading and the birds' loud chirping at dawn is all i hear.

Peace,
brian

Peace, all...
I lean more towards the understanding that we do not carry the sins of another. The passage about Cain & Abel seems unique to the quran, and i therefore wonder if it is to be understood in another way; otherwise, one might go so far as to consider this a contradiction.
Perhaps in not choosing to fight back, he had chosen to "give up additional sins," as we know that you are entitled to defend yourself, but mercy is better & remits more of your sins.
Of course, this possibility is the result of my typing while thinking. Very seldom, if ever, are my posts "pre-meditated."

Peace,
brian

Peace, all.

Since the beginning of my journey, the topic of salat has remained a mystery, and in the context of the freeminds websites, it seems to be no exception. This is not to criticize, mind you...i just cannot fathom how such a significant word cannot be nailed down. At times, it is the very definition of this word that seems to draw lines between so many of us...sunni, shiite, submitters, quran only-ers, whoever. such a topic of debate.

I have read
assembly, linking, learning link, reaching out, follow closely,commitment, strategy, prayer, contact prayer, ritual prayer...and many of these are followed by multiple understandings of what these english definitions imply.

This has remained a mystery for me for several years now. My heart tells me that "reaching out", as in taking time away from everything to talk to GOD & read the quran & meditate & discuss with others...is close, especially because when i don't get up in the morning to do it, or when i'm lying in bed and begin a "bedtime prayer" from the pillow, i feel I've not done as i should...but again this could be dogma of some sort...convincing myself i'm doing something wrong.

I believe the clues, in addition to finding what the word meant BEFORE the quran was revealed, are contained in the context of such verses as...the birds know their salat...the dawn salat is ever witnessed (by whom?)...guard your salat, especially the balanced/middle/best/wusta salat... and probably some others.

Would love to get more feedback...PLEASE!!!
Patiently searching, waiting & praying...
Peace,
brian

I say oops is the topic, because i just wrote a lengthy reply discussing my thanks for the welcome, & addressing the length of time i've been interested in self sufficiency, as well as how that ties to the quran.

But i made a mistake, so now i'll have to wait & see if it's a comp glitch & it posts or not, less i sound redundant.

Peace, all...

I am reviving thistopic because i brought it up under the heading of "salat" in a discussion, but didn't think i should expound under that topic.

This interests me greatly because i have currently been considering the usefulness of a government or hierarchy, and whether or not the quran sanctions one. I am glad to see that others are interested as well.

For me, the first thing that stands out is THERE IS TO BE NO COMPULSION. Would a series of enforced, man-made laws not be considered compulsion? Granted, some will say that the laws should be based upon the quran, but is that what this great book says?

My understanding is that the quran is a guidance from GOD, that GOD chooses to guide those whom GOD wills, those who seek guidance, and that GOD alone guides, that we cannot. We cannot make the blind see. Further, other people are a test to us in this life. We are told to seek justice for wrongdoings, but that mercy is better. We are told how to handle certain situations specifically, while other circumstances we are told to judge equitably in light of the quran. Often, witnesses are required for a judgement to be enacted, but careful reading does not reveal any sort of judge, or authority in human form. GOD judges, GOD guides.

I have, as i have said, been thinking a lot about this lately. I would love to discuss further, should anyone still be interested, so i will wait for a reply before "rambling on".

Peace,
brian

The term used in previous posts, "islamic state" is my focus. I have seen this phrase used many times in many places, but I am unaware if it is mentioned in the quran.
By definition, would any sort of state be a place that is govened by a ruling class that inforces the rules upon its inhabitants? Such an existence defies the "no compulsion" guideline of the quran.

Explaining my understanding may mean this post will belong under another topic, but i felt this much at least applied.

May God guide us to the truth.
Peace,
Brian

Peace all,

As this statement should be obvious, I am writing it more for myself my journey is by no means over, as i feel that i am not yet anywhere near where i am to be on the path.

That being said, my story.

I was raised in a Catholic household. My grandfather was a "reader" at our church and i admired him as a kid, so I became an alterboy, more to be up there with him than to be involved in the church. When my priest was killed in a flood in 1986, i believe that is when the first questions began to surface in my mind.
Fast-forward 5 years. I had not been attending church regularly (unrelated to priest's death), opting rather for typical teenage rebellion. It was during this time that i met someone who went to an "assembly of God" church. he was a rebellious, "cool" biker-type guy, so i thought, "wow, maybe there's something to this." i went, and i really enjoyed myself...swept up in the singing and praise and sense of belonging. At the end of the gathering, i went up front and "accepted Jesus."
I started playing the part, carrying a bible with me, trying my best to read it all of the time & tell others about Jesus...making me a somewhat unpopular highschool kid. One thing i had immediately noticed was that i had forced myself to begin praying to jesus...i had always prayed & talked to GOD in a very "your the boss & my friend" respectful, yet informal way. Now, i was taking it to "the son". Internal conflict began, and quickly ended when i mentioned to some of the "brothers" that i was going to the museum one day.
"Why? None of that stuff is real. Read your bible. Where are the dinosaurs? Scientists made that stuff to get funding."
What? Ok, that's too far. Goodbye.
A year after I graduated highschool, a girl i knew was murdered in the bathroom of a mall. This girl was charitable, kind, friendly, intelligent...she had, i felt, a lot to offer the world, and now she'd been taken. i became mad at GOD & would not speak.
After several years of this, coupled with an internal emptiness, i began looking into "natural" approaches to spirituality...one might say pagan. Native american culture always fascinated me, as well as that of other "first nations" of the world. I began to look at the way of "witches", those who revered nature in their worship & practises. That got me into studying herbs and their effects...which got me into gardening...which got me into self-sufficiency...which got me into questioning the current state of the government...which got me talking...which developed an openess in me, receptivity. People would share their opinions about things, and i found great enjoyment in discussing deep subjects with all different types of people.
One person i worked with showed me the quran he was reading. He was not muslim, nor interested in becoming. He was just curious. I looked at his strange book and immediately recognized names from the bible. That interested me because i did not expect it.
(i'm trying to speed this up, sorry so long)
I bought a copy less than a week later & began pouring over it. Where is the info about muslims praying? i don't see it here, but i know they do that bowing thing.
I went online to findout & study whatever i could. As i was downloading, printing, and memorizing how to pray, as well as how to correctly pronounce the arabic prayers, i came upon the Submitters website.
I ate that up. The supposed miracle, which i did not really verify for myself because he said, "hey, here it is...check it if you want" and i trusted that to be so open was a sign it's right, fished me right in. And submitters were an actual group of americans i could contact and be a part of...a sense of belonging!
I began praying my 5 a day...at work, at home...and it was really hard, especially because when someone challenged WHY i was doing this, i could explain why i believed the quran, but could not fully explain why i was bowing & chanting.
I met a former imam at one of my jobs, who explained to me his understanding, which was that there's a lot the muslims do that isn't backed up by the quran...WOW. It had occured to me, and obviously the Submitters mentioned it, but here was someone from the inside, an imam, who turned away. I dug deeper.
My first serious investigation (which is still ongoing, oddly enough) is the definition of salat. What the heck does that mean? And why am i still figuring out 2.5% of my earnings for charity, and who do i send it to? And why would i want to go to Mecca?
Needless to say, one of the sites that kept coming up in my search was freeminds. At first, it was just another opinion page, so i checked it when a linked popped up in a search. But, as i had been formulating my own understanding, and refining, and watching for "signs", and accepting that there are no coincidences, i came back more and more.
So, here i am...32 year old white male, living in Pennsylvania, with a christian wife, trying to live the life GOD wants of me. I fall short with every passing moment, my focus wavers constantly. Traditional muslims don't accept me as one of them. Christians obviously don't. My friends think it's another phase (which has lasted at least 4 or 5 years now), and yet all of the people who know me see a change.
I don't agree with everything freeminds says collectively. And that's why i like "coming here", to share opinions, to find out arabic roots, and to help remain focused.

ok, long enough
peace
brian